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Homeland Security Director Defends Real ID
An anonymous reader writes "Homeland Security chief Michael Chertoff is defending the upcoming rollout of the national ID card as vital for the nation's security. Chertoff reminded reporters of the importance of the initiative after this week's uncovering of an ID-forging ring. The Real ID Act of May 2005 dictates the uses and requirements for the documentation, which by 2008 may be required for everything from travel to banking. Just the same, the HSD has yet to dictate how exactly the cards will work. " From the article: "The Homeland Security chief, who is nearing his two-year mark with the agency, was likely trying to quell rampant skepticism about the IDs voiced by some privacy advocates, immigrants and other groups. Some have said they fear that the IDs are a stepping stone to a veritable police state, complete with ready surveillance of individuals. Some have argued that the idea of creating more tamperproof IDs is only a marginally better way to screen out those intent on committing terrorist acts because ID cards don't even begin to tackle a core crime prevention challenge: determining a person's unspoken intentions. "
Speaking for all college students out there (even though it's been 10 years since I've been one), I say "down with national ID cards!" How are our college students supposed to enjoy the company of their elders in fine drinking establishments without easily forged IDs? Punishing the resourcefulness of underage drinkers that are no threat to national security is just a crime.
Crack - Free with every butt and set of boobs
Can't remember the name of the book, but I know how this ends. Some guy who doesn't like me steals my ID card and/or replaces it with an invalid one, and I end up in jail because I can't prove who I really am. Federated identity is important; we can't have a single authoritative source for IDs or this sort of abuse will definitely happen.
mandelbr0t
"Please describe the scientific nature of the 'whammy'" - Agent Scully
So how exactly would these new ID cards be forge-proof? If people are already forging IDs, what's to stop them from forging these new ones? And what problem does this national ID card solve?
I feel safer already.
Quotes from article:
"With RealID, we can easily track down minorities and poor people."
"You know when someone shows you a RealID, its real. I mean, its in the name."
"To stop people from making fake RealIDs, we called it 'RealID'."
Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.
Where does the federal government claim to derive the power to mandate federal IDs? Are they using the interstate commerce clause yet again? There's one part of the Constitution that has been seriously misused time and time again and is in dire need of fixing.
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Most forgeries aren't perfect, in fact I'd say the vast majority are actually pretty shoddy comparatively. The problem comes when there are tons of kinds of IDs you need to recognise. Think about driver licenses. There are 50 different state variants and within those states there are often different types. I have seen not less than 4 variants on the Arizona license in the last 10 years, all of them still in circulation. That means that often those checking the IDs aren't able to do much more than a cursory job and make sure it's nothing something obvious like a paper picture glued on top. They aren't aware of all the security features to look for.
If there's a single, universal ID then the forgeries need to be much better. If you only need to learn about one ID, you can learn all the features on it and become quite familiar with it. Likewise any machine that checks it can be tailored to check all the security features to a high degree. This raises the bar a ton as now you have to produce essentially perfect forgeries and there aren't a lot of forgers that can do that.
Now please don't mistake this for an endorsement of the national ID concept, however it is a legit point. I can tell you to a very high degree of accuracy if an Arizona ID is real or not, at least if it's one of the newer ones, since I've looked at them quite carefully and gotten a list of the things to look for. However you give me a California ID and basically all I can do is look for stupid mistakes. I've no idea how it ought to actually look.
oooh ooh, and when you swipe it at a card reader, it goes
asdf2349qu0sadifjafsld@3290### buffering...
How would "Real ID" stop "identity theft"? Particularly since "identity theft" is basically fraud.
If anything, it will make it more difficult to "prove" that you did not apply for those loans, run up those credit cards, etc.
Nothing will stop fraud until the banks start having to pay for it instead of dumping the expense on their clients.
And the more a single piece of ID is accepted as "proof" of identity, the more valuable it becomes and the more people will try to forge it. Or just get a job in the office issuing them.
On the other hand, most forgeries are bad precisely because there are so many types of IDs. Therefore, forgers must use fake base materials. All this will do is provide a single set of legitimate base materials that can be stolen anywhere and will be considered "trusted" everywhere. So now, instead of faking the materials in a local forgery ring, they'll buy the legitimate raw materials on the black market from someone who stole them in another state. Once that shift in operation occurs, all fake IDs will be almost indistinguishable from the real thing, making things worse than they are now, not better.
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
What if a system is implemented to validate that the person presenting the card is the person listed in the database? What if when the card is read, the system displays the picture on file for the holder of the card (for an example of this type of system, except on a much more privacy-reduced scale, I'd recommend reviewing the DNA ID system in Gattaca)?
A card in any form is far more easily forged than a secured database. Use the information on the card for trivial matters (such as establishing patronage at your local drinking establishment or cashing a check at your bank) and connect to the database when it really counts (any government matter)
And regarding RFID use (for anyone who really cares, and there are plenty of people who do), encrypt the data so that it is useless without actually seeing the card (multi-key encryption)
Right now, the only government assigned ID system (in the US) is the Social Security Card, which is just a number and a name (which is not enough to validate the true identity of the person). The state issued IDs are not actually mandatory, so it is entirely possible that a US citizen has NO photo ID.
But, if people enter the US from other countries, they'll be using their passports for ID, not this thing, so... um... what was the point again?
Ah, but if they made everyone, even people visiting from other countries, get one of these, then it's much more secure than showing the passport. And how would they get one? They'd need some other ID first... like, for instance, a passport...
So, what possible good can this do? Well, I guess it'll make it harder for underage kids to buy beer. Other than that? Nothing, really...
If the masses can keep you down, you're not the Ubermensch.
I say we just tattoo everyone with a unique number using some kind of magnetic ink that can't be forged, like on the forehead or some place it wouldn't be easy to remove or forge somehow.
...over here in EU. I'm not sure if they help with anything but the simplest things, but they don't hurt nearly as much (if at all) as most of you paranoid people think they will.
I'm not exactly in favor of a national ID card, but this new program for implementing one makes me marginally happy. Why? Because we already have a national ID card, and it's a terrible one, trivial to abuse, trivial to forge, and used in contexts where it makes no sense: the Social Security Card. When the SSN card was first introduced, it was derided as a national ID card, but the proponents promised it wasn't. Well, it was, and we can see that by looking around us now. Do you want a driver's license? Well you better have a valid SSN card because one is required to get a license (this is a new rule as of summer 2006, so many of you might not realize this yet). Do you want a bank account? Need one. You need one for everything. My local video store demanded my actual physical SSN card before they would rent me a video. (I almost refused but I really really wanted to see Weekend At Bernie's II.)
So, shit, even though I don't want there to be a national ID card, the one coming soon is sure to be better than the one we have now.
I just really hope my new Social Conformity Number is 54601.
relevant to this issue:
http://www.no2id.net/
http://www.papersplease.org/
Think hard about whether you really want to trade the last shred of privacy for a little bit of 'added security'.
'A lie if repeated often enough, becomes the truth.' - Goebbels
Unless you are terrified of losing your job because someone from Brazil can come here and work for half of what you are making.
I live in the Phoenix area. Read the article about how you can get a fake SSN + drivers license + immigrant ID for $160 on the street corner in Phoenix.
Today, it is barely possible to verify the "credentials" of a prospective employee. DHS rules (as stated on the I-9 employment documentation form) says employers are not supposed to attempt to verify the validity of documents presented. So, if someone comes along with a driver's license drawn in crayon we are supposed to accept this.
One quick step to ending illegal immigration and "undocumented" workers is to make employer's liable for hiring people that aren't supposed to be here. A year in jail would go a long way towards ending it and there would be a mass exodus southward. The problem right now is there is no central authority for validating documents. There isn't even a consistent method on a state-by-state basis. If someone shows you an Illinois driver's license in Arizona as far as I know there is no way whatsoever to know if it is real, faked or "borrowed".
This also has an effect on just about everything else that today requires some kind of identification. If I go into a bank they want a local driver's license. One from another state isn't good enough. Why? Because they have no idea how to validate out-of-state identification.
This has nothing whatsoever to do with "terrorists" since many of them are state-sponsored and have access to whatever resources are required to defeat this kind of thing. However, we can all be concerned, if not terrified that today it is easier and cheaper to hire an undocumented worker than a citizen - because the citizen wants a fair wage and benefits. The undocumented worker wants nothing except more money than he was getting at home - which is an incredibly low bar to meet.
Imagine that you are a US Senator, elected to that position by the legislature of your state. A bill is proposed that will demand that the same legislature enact a certain law, and the state executive branch enforce it to the satisfaction of some national executive agency, or have funds withheld. Now imagine you want to be re-elected by that legislature. How do you think you're going to vote?
The result of these changes is that more and more decisions are being made in the US Congress and by the faceless mass of bureaucrats in national agencies, rather than in state capitals, county courthouses, and city halls. The concentration of power favors well-funded lobbyists who represent powerful interests, for whom the return on their investment can be huge; against diffuse interests of common citizens.
Instead of 50 different 'distros' of government, with the chance to learn from each other and merge improvements that succeeded elsewhere, we get stuck with a single implementation. Any flaws in that monoculture are global and potentially catastrophic.
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SVM, ERGO MONSTRO.
It doesn't matter. Suicide terrorists couldn't care less about people knowing their real identities, it isn't as if they would have to repeat their crimes and worry about being recognized the second time...
The DHS is run by over promoted bureaucrats who know absolutely nothing about security. We all know this, here is why this time:
:)
First lets talk about passwords. One thing I run into that people who set corporate policies for passwords often do not understand is that the password strength is very rarely the weak point in an attack. Quite often the requirements will be sent to something crazy like 20 characters, no repeating characters, enforced alphanumeric, (you all know the usual strong password requirements) and they feel that is it. Oh, but to reset a forgotten password all you need to know is your mother's maiden name or some such. THAT is the weak link, you have effectively made every user's password their mother's maiden name. All of the other password strength requirements are irrelevant.
"How does this relate, finkployd, you arrogant prick?" I hear most of you asking. Simple, how does one get one of these super duper realID cards? I strongly suspect it is by showing OTHER, PRE-EXISTING forms of ID. How else would it work? The problem of how to distribute these cards in such a way that you know they are being generated for and sent to the proper people pales in comparison to actually designing the damn thing in the first place. It will certainly depend in some way on existing forms of ID, meaning it is absolutely no more secure then them.
Of course the government and financial institutions will inevitably consider it to be the absolute last word in authentication, so expect that if your identity is ever stolen via a false realID card, nobody will ever believe you. YOU will be financially (and likely criminally) responsible for anything done if your realID is spoofed. Good luck everyone, we are screwed
Finkployd
Darn, what a shame that the police should have to be able to recognize 50 different types of driver's licenses. Have we so lost touch with our history in this nation that we think that it's the job of the citizenry to make it easier for the State to "police" us? Take a good look at the Bill of Rights and the Constitution and you won't find anything in there that indicates that Americans should be required to make the job of the police easier. In fact, it's just the opposite, which is why there isn't supposed to be unwarranted search in this country (President Bush's illegal NSA domestic spying program notwithstanding), it's why the 5th Amendment right against self-incrimination exists, it's why jury trials are a right, at it's heart it's why the 2nd Amendment exists. Face it people (and I know that a lot of /.'ers already understand this) the government is the enemy of freedom, no matter what it says about "promoting liberty", just look at what the State actually does and open your eyes to the fact that the government is a far greater threat to your life and liberty than any numnber of terrorists.
Just my $.02,
Ron
Impeach Barack Obama for violating the Constitutional requirement to be a "natural born" citizen to hold the office of P
suck it up.
What *I* mostly care about is this: Is it going to be as fast and easy as it is to obtain that fucking thing as it is to obtain legitimately a DL in Oregon?
In 2003, I moved there, got my apartment and had utility billing (showing proof of intent to reside there, not mooch or drift), and had my former CA DL (valid, non-expired) and auto insurance and my car smog-checked and in good condition, plus new tires and engine upkeep.
Closing in on the 30-day reside or leave law thing, I studied a few days for the test. I went to DMV by appointment (or, was it a drop-in? Yeh, by appointment since it was late when I first arrived). I sat before a computer. Answered maybe 20 questions. Passed.
Shocker? They told me to sit about 12 minutes and my ID would be ready. I thought I mis-heard the clerk. Huh? What?! 12 minutes? Hell, in California, I'd have to wait a month, maybe two (and mine have in CA been lost in the mail once or twice, when time was critical and having an ID for contract work was mandatory... not paper temporary vouchers...).
I concede that Oregon has a FRACTION of CA's population, but give me a BREAK! Are Oregon homeless or con artists any more crafty than those in California? CA is one of the most HIGH TECH states in the US, and if CA were a country, it'd have maybe the 3rd or 4th largest economy in the world (a good reason for CA to say FUCK DC and secede, heheheheh), so it ought to be EASIER and faster to obtain ID in CA. It should be possible to get the frackin' thing within 20 MINUTES of proving ones identity or passing ID and passing the DMV test.
The brouhaha over internal passport and threat to privacy and such may be well-intentioned, but as long as the ID has no wires, trace capability, or the like, then it's probably a GOOD thing that the ID information will be centralized. I am not speaking about "keeping out migrant workers". I'm talking about putting a crimp in the asses of those who legitimately obtain multiple IDs but who then go on to ABUSE the multiple IDs across state lines, defraud the IRS (I don't mind PAYING taxes; it's the LEVEL that I am bothered by at times), and evade paying bills, tickets, or child support. If you MAKE a kid, PAY FOR IT! Owe a debt, PAY for it, or stay in the loop until it's discharged or someone picks up the bill to give you a clean slate.
All this bitching about the ID is good and some of it is not. Another GOOD thing is that some back-jerkwater-ass hobo-run sheriff or PO-LEASE in parts of the US can't (hopefully can't) ding passers-through on D/L issues. (Broken turn or signal lamps can still cause you problems if they want to detain you or scrape a few dozen dollars out of your wallet before telling you to come back and visit our little town again....)
Hell, many countries, due to historical and formation pains, have had national IDs from their START. We, here in the USA, had it good for a while. The criminal types will still evade; the good types will comply; the cottage lawyers will bitch up a storm and get paid up the ass and smile for the make-work. Cops (good or bad) and bars and certain businesses will love it because they won't have to memorize, train others, or keep annual books on valid forms of acceptable ID.
(*** It *ought* to be a *win* for a lot of people. The cell phones and pagers, NIC cards, and roaming login accounts tell more about us than the damned RealID would. I am pretty sure a number of states are afraid of losing control not over states' rights, but over the cottage card-printing industry (like presidents' and governors' wives painting and selling junk art so DC and the states' frame-making industry can be artificially propped up....) ***)
Anyway, some states permit individuals to possess more than one state ID as long as there is no sign of fraud. Frakin' California would punch a HOLE through my Oregon ID but I had to rationalize with the clerk that I HAD to not have my Oregon ID SCREWED WITH by some arcane process that could be double-checked by a simple inter-ag
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
Hey, this justification is wrong - try applying it to paper currency... :-)
When a politician is thinking of what regulations to make, most (thankfully not all) think not about how to help the country but how to maintain there power. In a democracy, maintaining power=being popular (note: popular not smart. Dont confuse the two). You can't be popular if you tell people to suck it up because there is no reasonable way to prevent some security threats and so you do crap like national IDs.
Similar delusions make it hard for people to acknowledge censorship etc.
I once lived in an openly oppressive regime, sure your rights got trampled, and there was severe censorship but at least you didn't live in a fool's paradise.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
Under The Real ID Act, though, the state ID authority (usually the DMV) will be required not only to examine your birth certificate and social security card, but also to scan and create digital copies of them in their system, as well as collecting further information on their forms.
So here's another shoe to drop:
This is exactly the information necessary to use the IDs and related databases as the foundation of a system to insure that:
- Voters are real people.
- Voters are qualified to vote, i.e.:
- Are citizens (in states that don't explicitly permit non-citizens to vote)
- Are of age to vote.
- Are residents of the place where they vote.
- Are not barred from voting (for instance: By felony convictions in states where felons aren't allowed to vote)
- Voters are only registered once, in one place.
- Voters vote no more than once.
Half of vote fraud is bogus counting (such as the black-box voting flap). The other half is bogus voters (such as the cemetary vote, the virtual voters created en masse by the combination of motor-voter "vote drives" with no-excuse absentee voting, illegal alien signups, multiple registration, and so on.)
The data collected for this national I.D. card is exactly what's needed to purge the voting rolls of fake voters. Once it's collected and federalized the Fed can check it for authenticity and lack of duplication. Then:
- include a "where registered" field in the database entry for each federal I.D. record
- open that field for checking and update by voter registration clerks, and
- add a federal mandate that the federal I.D. number be used, and checked, for registration for federal elections,
and you've got a solution for the second class of ballot-box stuffing (modulo corruption in THIS system, which could be construed to be a "security" crime as well as vote fraud).
So if you want to oppose this, bring up this "benefit". You'll immediately have a rush of machine politicians to vote against the whole I.D. scheme. B-)
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
3,030 Americans died on 9-11.
16,000 Americans die to murder each year.
In spite of the impact it made, 9-11 had 1/5th the impact of a single year of murders in the USA. Somehow, for 200 years, we managed to uphold the constitution in spite of murder rates. 9-11 is a sorry excuse to change that now.
Therefore, it seems timely and appropriate to recommend that the administration and members of the department of "homeland security" read the constitution, and that THEY adjust to the CONSTITUTION, rather than the other way around.
9-11 already happened. Unless they intend to invent a time machine to stop 9-11, the DHS should just disband itself, b/c chiselling away at our rights hasn't done a damn bit of good for the country.
"Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." -Jesus Christ The Lord's Prayer
The concept of an ID card is not bad unless you're a fascism. The problem is with fascism, not with ID cards. If you think your government tends toward fascism, solve that, not the problem that you're worried what would a fascist government do with ID cards.
I have to say I'm completely dumbfounded about the SSN practice in the USA. Here in Hungary, most official business require an ID card, which has personal details, like b.o.d, current address(actually a separate card to make it more easier to move and stuff), a photograph and a numerical code on it.
The numerical code is only for the rare case where someone lives at the same place with someone else with the same name and B.o.d, so to serve generally as an unique identifier. You cannot do anything with that numerical code in itself. You have to have the card. It is pretty forgery resistant and if you need a fake id badly, you could just bribe an official in the ministry of internal affairs to give you a new identity anyway.
So there's that. It is useful for the common person, because it proves identity and every adult has it.
Yeah, it can be misused, but everywhere it is grossly misused by the government, it is not a democracy anyway and you've got bigger problems than that anyway.
I don't get why people in the anglo-saxon countries think of the nazis immediately when the issue of national ids came up, I don't think of nazi germany when driving an Audi.
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