Microsoft Says PS3 Linux Not 'Competitive' To XNA

nz17 writes "Gamasutra has a preview of its upcoming interview with Dave Mitchell, Director of Marketing for Microsoft's Game Developer Group. In the interview Mitchell dismisses Linux on the PS3 as a game creators' solution and has said, 'What we [at XBox] are focused on doing is providing great tools at a free or low price point that are going to enable consumers to be absolutely successful at creating games for both the Windows and the Xbox 360 platforms.'"

Comments

He may be right

[Blikkie]

Sad as it might sound, he could very well be right. Although linux may be very nice as a development tool, XNA is here and now, and already has hardware access, and is very affordable. No matter how much people may hate Microsoft, this is very possibly a good tool for indie game developers who want to create a console experience.

Re:He may be right

[kjart]

I suppose it depends on want you intend to do with Linux when you get it. Yes you can write games (+ play an enormous number already written), but you could also use Linux for MythTV, VLC, web browsing, email, or any other use imaginable. Where the PS3 Linux sucks is the video driver is a frame buffer, however I believe that if you dedicated a handful of SPUs on the backside of Mesa that the performance would be pretty good.

That's his point - XNA is all about game development and the PS3 thing isn't that focused and isn't really "in the same vein" (to quote the article).

Besides XNA has drawbacks even for writing games. a) It uses .NET, thereby hobbling its performance, b) you have to PAY to publish your games c) You have to PAY to see and play them d) You don't get paid for either. To me it looks more like vanity publishing than a legitimate means of encouraging games development.

Well:
a) There is a fairly impressive demo on what you can do visible in this video from channel9. Performance seems pretty nice to be. Would it be faster if this was all in C/C++? Probably - but this is meant to be widely accessible.
b)Yes, it's a $99 USD a year fee to publish your content to the Xbox right now and only people with a similar subscription will be able to access it. However, according to the article, the sharing of these homebrew creations is one of the things they will be working on. I for one can't wait for the day when I can login to a special section of Xbox live to browse through all the user created games (pretty much suggested at one point in the video I linked to above).
c)See above.
d)I'm sure this isn't far away either. As a developer I would love to be able to create the next killer Xbox arcade game or whatever and be able to sell it for a few bucks on Xbox live. As Microsoft I'd love to be able to have developers doing this so I could take a cut (i.e. as a the publisher, etc) and to drive interest in the console. I can't recall reading about this, but I imagine it must be on the horizon at some point.

Offtopic, but...

[solanum]

am I only only one that gets sick of the PR language that is used in the IT industry, it's constant drivel. I mean look at:

What we [at XBox] are focused on doing is providing great tools at a free or low price point that are going to enable consumers to be absolutely successful at creating games for both the Windows and the Xbox 360 platforms. They're not tools they're "great tools", they don't provide a product they "enable consumers", their product doesn't just do a job it is "absolutely successful" argghhhhhhh............. One of my aims in life is never to buy anything from a company that uses this sort of PR speak.

Microsoft is absolutely right.

[hsa]

PS3 Linux is an effort to sell PS3 as a computer. It has only access to framebuffer, without any hardware accelerated 3d support.

XNA is a game development platform working on both Windows and XBOX360.

Which would be better for Game Developers? :)

Say what you want ...

[LaughingCoder]

about Microsoft, but this is one thing they have *always* gotten. Providing excellent tools and 3rd party developers has been one of the main reasons they have been so successful over the years. It's nice to see they haven't forgotten that.

Re:He's right...

[Lonewolf666]

This may be a great development tool set, but you're going to be stuck with only supporting the PC and the XBOX 360. No linux, OSX, PS3, Wii, or any other kind of gaming platform.
Maybe, but Sony at least will have to blame themselves just as much. By not supporting the PS3 graphics chip under Linux (actually some reports say it has been hidden from Linux), they made sure that the PS3 is not very attractive to indie game developers.

Re:He's right...

[Harlockjds]

it's not like developing under linux on the ps3 will allow for 360 and wii development (and it hardly enables ps3 development thanks for the restrictions sony puts on the platform)

Re:Actually...

[pudro]

assuming they're serious about homebrew development and haven't just put GNU on the PS3 as a tax dodge.

I don't know where you heard anyone claim this as even a possibility, but it is completely bogus. The exceptions in the tax laws that would have saved Sony money if they could get the PS2 classified as a "computer" were done away with years ago. Tax dodging has nothing to do with Sony calling their console a "computer" (this time).

Microsoft compares apples to a kitchen

[tjwhaynes]

I don't doubt for a second that Microsoft has put considerable time, energy and work into making XNA a decent development platform for games on the XBOX 360. Generally, their development tools are pretty reasonable (as long as you don't need to interface them into anything non-Microsoft). So it wouldn't surprise me if XNA actually does what it claims - allows you to make games!

It is interesting to see the Microsoft PR get out there and compare XNA on XBOX360 to Linux on PS3. Of course, if you are going to make this comparison, you had better play up your strengths (easy game creation) and ignore there rest (full operating system, full development suite, lots of libraries available). Restricted to game development, the comparison is probably fair - for the fledging game developer who already has an XBOX 360, XNA probably allows them to put a game together fairly easily, certainly compared with taking a huge and diverse tool kit like a Linux install.

What this PR totally ignores is that XNA allows you to make games. Linux allows you to do whatever you want to do. If you are into game development on Linux and you want something to create games, then a port of Blender to the PS3 and the Blender Game Engine would probably be of most use to you. Or you could use the SDL libraries to get a start on some 2D stuff. Or you could play around with the Quake 1/2/3 source code and try and use that. Or wait for the GP2X games to get ported over. Or you could build a multimedia box. Or a fortune reader!

So, the comparison XNA/XBOX 360 is better than Linux/PS3 is deeply flawed. It may be true (for now) from one angle. It just isn't the whole story.

Cheers,
Toby Haynes

Re:Microsoft compares apples to a kitchen

[Anonymous Coward]

What this PR totally ignores is that XNA allows you to make games. Linux allows you to do whatever you want to do.

Wrong. PS3 Linux does not allow access to the GPU so you can use it for anything except making games. This is the whole point. Sony doesn't want Linux games to compete with its taxed, $10-per-copy-to-us-thank-you-very-much game publishing model.

If you are into game development on Linux and you want something to create games, then a port of Blender to the PS3 and the Blender Game Engine would probably be of most use to you.

It can't be done. Not unless you think software rendering is the way to go.

Or you could use the SDL libraries to get a start on some 2D stuff.

As long as you don't want GPU acceleration with that.

Or you could play around with the Quake 1/2/3 source code and try and use that.

No you couldn't.

Or wait for the GP2X games to get ported over.

Er.

Or you could build a multimedia box.

Yes, you can probably just about decode DivX on one of these without months of work trying to shoehorn a codec into an SPU.

Or a fortune reader!

That's about what's left over that is possible and useful to do on a PS3 running Linux.

Actually, you could do some interesting raytracing stuff, if you had the "Open"RT source code. Things might get interesting if they release a binary.

So, the comparison XNA/XBOX 360 is better than Linux/PS3 is deeply flawed.

Yes, it's comparing a whole free game development environment with a crippled version of a basic OS. I agree it's a dumb comparison.

I'm developing with XNA right now

[BShive]

I prefer Java/Eclipse personally to C#/VStudio, but XNA seems to be offering a good opportunity for Indies. Other than Beta1 to Beta2 transition, I've been impressed with the XNA team. I loaded my game on to a XB360 earlier this week and it was amazingly painless. A 'duh' issue where some content files were missing, but only had to do a few minor code changes. An hour later my game was running on an Xbox360! It's hard to believe that Microsoft managed to put such a solid product out. They did it with a very small team, which is why it is only VStudio Express and C# are supported right now. It's nothing like the bloated behemoth that Windows OS development has become. Other coolness is that Remote Debugging works, and works well. I've never had remote debug in hardware or software that worked so painlessly. Create the PC-360 link, start debug, play on the 360, and watched variables will update, you can insert breakpoints on the fly, step through, all that jazz without any problems at all.

Re:I'm developing with XNA right now

[marcello_dl]

It's hard to believe that Microsoft managed to put such a solid product out.

I believe it, and I usually bash Microsoft. It's the effect of not being a monopolist in one area. The Microsoft in the console area is Sony, if the ps3 linux kit won't fully support the hardware. A ps3 with more RAM and full liux would be a killer home computer.

He Is Right

[EXTomar]

It is like comparing DirectX to WinCE. One is a API that ogranizes various OS functions in away to facilitate creating of media content. The other is Operating System level for user processes to build any application on. Although one can build a game without XNA/DirectX right on the OS(WinCE/Linux), it isn't as pleasant or extendable. You can't build a device driver in XNA. It is much more "hands on" to OpenGL routines with just the OS and GL/GLX let alone a make a full blown game.

There appears to be different goals between XNA and PS3 Linux. I would fully expect toy games from XNA while on PS3 Linux I expect more toy apps. Keep in mind that neither of these are for serious product development. If you or your company want to make a real product for XBox 360 or PS3 you need a different set of hardware and software tools.

The Santa Factor

[LifesABeach]

This morning I was asked, "should we buy a PS2, or a PS3 for the children?" Wii, Xbox, and PS3 all have price tags that are a little to pricey for this Santa. From my view point, I cannot see homework completed using the Xbox, or the PS3; But the notion is intriguing. It boils down to game title, and compatibility. Microsoft is doing to consumers what IBM did to consumers using Microsoft; That still leaves a bad taste in my mouth,(In both cases). I think it is only a matter of time before Sony realizes that access to their entire box via Linux will finally allow some curiously entertaining games and applications to be created. I can plug my laptop into my LCD TV, same for the game boxes; So which has the better graphics, and feed back? It looks like this Santa has a trip to Fry's, Best Buy, and the Toy Be Us folks; Today.

Ms XNA vs PS3 Linux

[HaMMeReD3]

At first, I thought ps3 and linux was a clear cut genius move by sony, and I couldn't wait to get my hands on a ps3 just to enjoy all the linux goodness. That feeling is now all but gone, since I found out yesterday that sony will not open up access to the rsx, which means no graphical acceleration.

Last I checked the "open" cell api was no where near complete either, at least when it came to documentation.

The reason that sony chose linux too is actually completely clear to me, it completely nullifies the possibility of pirating ps3 games (although ps2/ps1 and other consoles via emulation would have been possible had they released the rsx spec). I highly doubt that ps3 games can realistically be run withing a linux system with any loader.

So the choice of linux was made to prevent any possible competition in the profitable game industry/piracy while pretending to care about open source.

Microsoft on the other hand, doesnt give a crap about open source, and they've released a very easy to program platform, which I believe is based on managed direct x which is probably the easiest 3D api available. They have given the little game designers the possibility of actually creating games cross platform that they can profit off of.

Overall, I think microsoft does win this round, because they are allowing game developers to build just that, games for the xbox 360, while sony is allowing all software except games, and they refuse to support linux fully which makes the whole endeavor nearly useless.

That's because it isn't competitive.

[the_greywolf]

You can't build general software with XNA. It's tuned for games. It's also only really useful to anyone with a Creator's Club membership.

You CAN build general software on PS3 Linux. It's not tuned specifically for any one purpose. It's useful to anyone, anywhere, anytime, and doesn't require additional investment to share in its benefits.

Of course it's not a competitive solution. THERE IS NO CONTEST.