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HP's Windows Bundle Trouble
narramissic writes "A French consumer group has filed 3 lawsuits against HP, saying the company's practice of selling consumer PCs with Windows pre-installed violates a French law that 'prohibits linking the functionality of a product to another product' — not to mention that consumers wind up paying for an unwanted OS. For its part, HP contends that it is not in violation of the law because the OS is integral to the PC. 'The PC without an OS is not a product because it doesn't work,' said Alain Spitzmuller, legal affairs director for HP France. 'We believe the market is for products that work.'"
then it works.
It may not have all the functionality that someone wants, but it does work.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
So, how are complicated things sold in France? Are cars sold without tires? Are lawnmowers sold without blades? Are shoes sold without laces? Are pizzas sold without toppings?
This sounds like a very confusing and difficult place to do business. Well, considering their unemployment rate, maybe it is.
I guess Mr. Spitzmuller has never purchased an uninflated baloon or a lawn mower without any fuel in it.
A car without gas doesn't work, yet I am free to buy a car without gas in it and bring my own gas to use in it. As far as computers go I order barebone machines all the time (Sun X2100's being a great example, they offer Solaris, SuSE, Red Hat, Windows or no OS). I can do the same from many vendors for desktop systems. Apparently selling machines without an OS is acceptable to a large number of consumers.
Honestly I don't see why HP's argument is flawed, without an OS the PC is useless for things that consumer's want to do. HP could install Linux on every PC they ship, but the problems inherent in that should be easy to see for anyone, even the most die-hard linux fanboy (I'll give you a hint, basic computer + linux + user who knows nothing about PCs = PROBLEM). Basically the computer they're selling is largely useless to the average consumer without an OS pre-installed, and so either HP would have to change what they sell from full working PCs to almost full working PCs or they just need to win this. Face facts, without an OS the computer is no where near as useful. It's like telling McDonalds to stop putting their food in bags, because it's unfairly forcing the consumer to pay for something (the bag) that they're probably going to throw away. Or telling TV people to not ships cables with the TV, because it unfairly links cable sales to TV sales when the user may want a different cable. Admittedly Windows is more expensive but the situation is largely the same...
There are two kinds of fool One says 'This is old therefore good' Another says 'This is new therefore better'- Dean Ing
So, you can do something with a computer with NO OS on it?
Interesting. I had no idea that staring at "O/S Not Found" was that interesting. Do tell me more.
You might not care for HP's choice of OS, but a PC needs an OS or it just doesn't work. You're free to buy your PC from someone OTHER than HP, and the law should not force HP to sell you what they don't want to.
I guess there's a good chance I'll get modded down for the heinous crime of coming out in favour of Microsoft here, but why should HP be sued for not selling a computer without an OS? It's like suing a company for selling a pen that comes with a cartridge. Sure, the pen could be sold without one and the buyer could get them separately, possibly even cheaper, but the fact is that the majority want to buy a pen and use it as-is. The same goes for computers.
I think HP should sell PCs that come with other OSes (or even no OS at all) - simply because I think there is a market worth taking there. However I don't think it's for any government or "consumer group" to try and force this on a company.
To look at it another way, there are plenty of PC manufacturers that solely sell PCs with DVD writers, monitors, keyboards and/or mice. Just like an OS, none of those things are *needed* in the strictest sense, yet nobody seems to be up in arms (or rather up in lawsuits) about that.
While I've greatly enjoyed watching the anti-trust decisions go against Microsoft in the EU in recent years, it seems that those legitimate victories for consumer rights are now being turned into a witch-hunt by various organisations in Europe who see the anti-MS sentiment as a means to get their hands into Microsoft's very deep pockets.
Spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, and stupid comments are intentional.
That would be like selling printers without including the paper... Oh, never mind...
g es data cable with their printers?
Speaking of which, isn't it annoying when you buy a printer and it doesn't come with a USB cable? HP, I'm looking at you. Maybe in France they include the necessary-to-function-beyond-printing-out-test-pa
"A DVD player without a DVD is not a product, because it doesn't work..."
yes it does. You turn it on, you get a screen on the TV, and you even get an indcator that you don't have a disk.
"A DVD player without a TV is not a product, because it doesn't work..."
Again, I get little lights on mine, and if I put a dvd in it still sends a signal to it's output. it works fine.
"A toy without batteries is not a product, because it doesn't work..."
Of course it does, children can play with it just fine.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
And which laymen consider "not working", or at best "working too hard".
Do you honestly think it should be mandated that computers must come OS-free? And I'm not talking about "should be" in terms of how it would reduce the inept-user population, I'm talking about "should be" in terms of freedom and government non-interference. You are free to go buy a computer without an OS, or buy the parts and assemble them yourself, etc. Should companies not be free to sell OSes pre-installed on computers? Should people not be free to buy them?
The United States of America: We do what we must because we can.
So he is just trying to imply that the only thing that fits the definition of a PC OS is Windows. I call Shenanigans.
For an OS, you may not even need to go to the store. You could download one of many free Linux (or BSD or other) OS's many of which do not even need to be installed to function.
Assuming HP shipped you a PC with absolutely no O.S. installed, how exactly would you go about downloading this wonderful free O.S.?
A great solution if you already have a PC. A pretty lousy one if you're picking up a phone, squeeling, "Bleep, bleep, blurrrrrrp, bleep" at it, then desperately noting down the bleeps and burps it sends back before trying to etch the ISO image on to a CD with a flashlight and a magnifying glass.
Batteries are a common consumer item. It can generally be assumed that even the least technically inclined can figure out where to buy them and how to install them. For the average non-Geek, finding out where to buy an O.S., understanding that the cool one Apple sells doesn't work on their PC and then going through a typical Linux install is way beyond them. Thus a product without batteries remains largely functional within the means of an average consumer whereas a PC without an O.S. does not.
No but it should be good consumerfriendly if computers are sold giving the consumer the option to select which OS they want to install and even give them the option to buy the OS from another seller.
Just saying it like it are.
I guess it is as long as one doesn't mind false dichotomies. A computer without an operating system may not be useful, but where is it written that the *only* useful operating system is Microsoft Windows? Where is it written that consumers should not have the option of installing some other operating system? Where is it written that consumers must buy a new Microsoft operating system in addition to the one they already own? I mean, aside from Microsoft OEM licensing agreements. A more appropriate analogy would be cars and gasoline. A car isn't useful without fuel, and fuel isn't useful without a machine to put it in, but nobody would try to insist that if I buy a Ford, I also have to buy a lifetime supply of Chevron gasoline with it as opposed to any of a dozen other brands of gasoline. There are even more potential choices in operating systems than there are choices of gassoline, but according to HP, you can buy your HP machine with any operating system you want - as long as it is Windows. That's total BS.
No, I think it should be mandated that computers can be purchased OS-free for a price that is less than the price of one with the OS by a difference of the retail price of the OS. I think people should have the choice.
ttuttle is a rankmaniac
No. The difference is that an operating system runs on the computer. It isn't a necessary part. You could netboot the computer, or boot it off of a CD. Both are perfectly legitimate reasons for wanting to be able to buy a computer OS-free.
ttuttle is a rankmaniac
Put another way, if my computer smokes and I already own a valid Windows license, it seems reasonable that I should be able to buy a replacement PC from the same manufacturer sans Windows and install my existing licensed copy. That said, I would hope that different rules apply if the same manufacturer creates both the hardware and software (e.g. Apple, Sun, IBM's server hardware). Otherwise, that could really turn into a mess.
You know... probably easier to just change the law.
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
OK, then - you can drive a truck without headlights. Sure, it's not legal to drive it on the road, but you can still use it to carry things around a farm, or plow a driveway. I guess all trucks should be sold without headlights.
The argument that a computer is usable without an OS is completely retarded - if you want your computer to have an OS different from the one HP includes installed, buy it from one of a hundred other dealers, or build it yourself.
The irony of demanding a computer to include linux on the bios but not to include windows on the hard drive. Wow. This entire thread is terrible. HP sells prebuilt computers to people. There is no monopoly by HP, not even an oligopoly by HP and Dell. Where are the complaints about Mac's have OSX on them? If anyone is locking in hardware with software, it is Apple. But then again, if you don't want an operating system, go to a company that doesn't include one or build your own. It isn't really that hard. I really don't understand this arguement.
The problem with an OS-free PC is that it will actually cost you more. The large PC manufacturers get Windows for very cheap, and then load it up with "value added" software, links, demos and other such great stuff. It turns out that by having Windows on the PC they are actually turning a profit.
You might not like paying for Windows in some way, but in effect it lowers the cost of your PC, odd as it may sound.
Either pay more (or at worst get no reduction in cost), or just nuke windows off the drive when you get it.
Microsoft strategists, should they stumble across the discussion so far, would fall into fits of uncontrolled cackling, wide eyed, rubbing hands, with grins stretching all the way to the bank.
Why? Because everyone is preoccupied with issues that are mere disctractions from the real problem - Microsoft's abusive policies. You think HP want to restrict customer choice? Wants to charge them extra for Windows? Is full of idiots because they come up with a lame excuse for a policy whose only good excuse cannot be disclosed? The French are bad because they are targeting companies unfairly? Dream on - this entire discussion has missed the boat.
There is a reason you never see PCs from major manufacturers for sale without Windows. It is not a conspiracy between the hardware companies. HP would probably love to offer Linux. The real villain is Microsoft. They include penalties in their contracts with PC makers, that make it suicidal for vendors to sell even one PC without Windows. If HP sold so much as one unencumbered PC, they would owe Microsoft so much more money that it could affect their stock price. Microsoft gets away with this because all vendors need to be able to sell discounted copies of Windows, profit margins on PCs are razor thin, the agreements are confidential, and Microsoft has plenty of lobbyists, lawyers, and PR people.
France is right to enforce laws that break a monopolies ability to enforce its market dominance. I hope that these laws do not suffer from unintended consequences.
[Posted anonymously because I don't like having chairs thrown at me. Microsoft lawyers take note: I am not a party to any Microsoft confidentiality agreement and claim first amendment protection for the facts included herein.]
You market a PC as a consumer product you must ship it with an OEM system install.
System builders are insignificant in this market segment. The Geek is insignificant in this market segment. The PC as a plug and play appliance has been the gold standard for users for over twenty-five years.
He isn't the idiot. You are the idiot.
He's probably also never bought an automobile without an engine.
So... HP sells a product that apparently could cost less without the OS installed. So why doesn't someone else just sell a barebones PC? Why does the law have to be inovolved? Why do we have to use the government to force a company to sell their product in a way that some consumers want? If the company isn't meeting the consumer requirements then some other company can capitilize on that opportunity and create a product... why must HP sell HP products any way other then the way HP wants to. If customers don't like paying the price then don't pay it. It's simple... no need to give these silly beaurocrats any more power.
My point is that a majority percentage of the world is hooked on Windows, and most of that percentage would prefer their computer to not be expensive. If HP's cost per computer goes up because they decide they want to market Linux to the home user, and Dell decides not to, the majority of people looking for a cheaper computer will go to Dell, because Dell is cheaper. More money per Linux box might be made, but would the overall profit of Linux boxes outweight the amount of sales lost? Probably not because most home users don't give a flying fig about Linux. (That is in NO way a personal stance. It's merely a stereotypical response of the average non-savy computer user.)
"You might not care for HP's choice of OS, but a PC needs an OS or it just doesn't work. You're free to buy your PC from someone OTHER than HP, and the law should not force HP to sell you what they don't want "
See the interesting thing is they dont advertise the issues with a "XP image installation"
1. You cannot partition HDD to your desire, only 1 partition allowed anything above that they dont support.
2. They install bloatware (AOL,Music match, other junk) everytime you reinstall forcibly.
3. Cannot install a retail copy of WIn XP Pro on the laptop , which i believe is a illegal restriction.
I recently purchase a HP DV2000t laptop , I agree absolutely with the suit the french man has charged. If you have a retail copy
of WIn XP it still doesnt work wid the laptop(SATA Driver problems , even loading the SATA driver from floppy leads to a crash) unless its the XP image provided by HP itself. and when you restore image
all the bloat ware including comes back .
Spent 2 days arguiing with HP support to send me a regular XP OS install CD instead of disc images. They abosultely refused .
Finally i ended up bastardizing the image so much that i doubt if i'd be able to resintall .
Good news is SuSE 10.1 works including webcam and eveything . so will probably ditch win Xp on it alltogether
Then when you buy the machine OS-less, they should warn you that unless you know what you're doing, your new machine won't do the stuff that you want. But they should also provide the option to sell you the same machine without an OS and without all that crappy bundled software and discount the cost of that software from the purchase price of the machine, in case you would rather put Linux on it, for instance.
Well, one thing I can do with a computer without an OS on it is to install and run an OS on it. The OS is no more integral to the computer than the computer is to the monitor. You could equally well have said "I had no idea that staring at a blank screen with the DVI cord unplugged was that interesting". By your logic, since the monitor is useless by itself, the computer and the monitor clearly can't be separate products.
Thousands of products are unusable unless combined with another product: a flash light delivered without batteries; a trailer without a car to drag it; a bucket of paint without a brush; a fridge without food in it. The list goes on forever.
No, I disagree. Every desktop oriented Linux distro in the world would be scrambling for a chance to be OEM installed on consumer PCs. And given the choice between an HP with Windows for $1000 and an identical HP with Linux for $600, I think most consumers would pick Linux every time. Assuming the in store Linux HP machines weren't purposely rigged to look bad, I think most non-gaming consumers would realize that OpenOffice, Firefox, Gaim, and Thunderbird meet all their requirements.
Maybe not
"No, I think it should be mandated that computers can be purchased OS-free for a price that is less than the price of one with the OS by a difference of the retail price of the OS. I think people should have the choice."
That is absolutely ridiculous! HP doesn't pay retail price for every copy of Windows they put on their computers so why should they dock that price?
Having Windows XP on a new computer probably only raises the price $10-$25 if even that much.
x=hardware + labor + margin
y=oem windows license
z="ad revenue" for including 60-day trial versions of Norton Antivirus, weatherbug or whatever
T= price to customer, could be x+y-z if HP feels generous.
If z>y, z depends on the existence of y, and you feel no ideological pain when getting a PC which you have to nuke windows off the disk before using, then it is in your interest that y is present.
Reboot and Select proper Boot Device (Réinitialisation et dispositif approprié choisi d'initialisation )
Don't you think he might call HP and say "My PC doesn't work!" ???
People don't call Sony when their PlayStation game console says "Please insert a game". Here's what the HP tier-1 phone tech support person would say:
Press the button on your computer's DVD drive to open the tray. Find the CD labeled "Linux Operating System", L-I-N-U-X, that came in your computer's resource pack, and place it in the tray. Press the button again to close the tray. Now press the power button to start the CD. Then just do what the screen says.
OS of choice, or OS of coercion? Do the majority of the middle class even realize that they have a choice?
[A computer builder] only knows what people are buying and it sure as hell ain't OEM Linux.People are buying Windows only because nothing else is advertised.
Good lord. Even Walmart couldn't undercut OEM Windows on price. OEM Windows is priced for the mass market. Sales in the millions and tens of millions of units.
There is a twenty year backlist of MSDOS and Windows titles that should run just fine under 32 bit Vista. There are few genuine first-time buyers in the consumer market and many very real barriers to migration.
I think most non-gaming consumers would realize that OpenOffice, Firefox, Gaim, and Thunderbird meet all their requirements.
Anything of interest to home users in FOSS gets ported to Windows or begins as a native Windows app. FOSS is not a driver for the adoption of Linux. End of line.
If simply all computer vendors were legally obliged to itemise the computer and operating system in all advertising, *and* make the operating system optional, it would immediately level the playing field for all competitors.
Our government departments are, indeed, in Microsoft's pocket. Heck, our entire country is in America's pocket.
There are 10 kinds of people; those who know ternary, those who don't, and those now hunting for a dictionary.
I know many of the Linux zealots here will bash HP for not offering alternative OSs as an option, but remember that when your average consumer (ie: grandma) purchases a PC they expect a certain level of support and functionality.
.. it's quite likely she may want Option B. Then when she gets home to install it, and then has any number of problems (her ISP won't support her, her printer doesn't work, her nephew can't email her, her bank won't support Firefox, her old copy of MS Office won't load, etc etc etc) then she's going to call HP.
If grandma has a choice between:
A) Desktop + Windows for $800
B) Desktop + Linux for $600
At that point, HP's costs increase trying to support Grandma, or HP risks seriously upsetting a customer and possibly getting into further legal troubles. It's a lose-lose for HP and Grandma.
A business should never have be forced to give its customers a choice. If it makes business sense to only bundle Windows, then it should be free to do that. Let someone else sell a Linux box, take the risk, and see what happens.
-David
I mean, there's software in there. How dare they bundle that!
What if I don't want an optical drive? How dare they bundle a DVD burner (ie. another product) with the computer?
I am the maverick of Slashdot
"A) isn't an IT geek; or B) didn't have it setup for them BY an IT geek"
That seems like it covers pretty much every Windows owner too, eh?
Particularly if you consider preloading as having it set up for them by an it geek.
Heck, for my own anecdotal evidence I can say I dont know _anyone_ at _all_ who has actually bought Windows to install on a PC. I do, however, know quite a lot of people who have downloaded Linux to install. And I do know a whole lot of people who have paid for Windows they're not using, as part of a new computer.
"it makes no sense whatsoever for HP to sell them."
Oh, BS. Reconfiguring the imaging of a system has pretty much no cost. You could even do it with stores like Best Buy; simply use a DVD-preloading image which already ships with many machines in the form of recovery DVD's. Offering the image separately would slice a fair amount of the price in the lower segments, thus increasing sales. Which _would_ make sense for HP. It just wouldnt make sense for Microsoft who would lose all the aforementioned anecdotal sales. Which is why they insist on playing the tying game.
Then we have to figure out why Joe Sixpack freezes in front of an empty PC but not in front of an empty game console. Perhaps it's because the BIOS of the PS1 and PS2 game consoles has some sort of user interface, as if it were a Built-In Operating System rather than just a Basic Input-Output System. Adding a friendlier BIOS UI to the commodity personal computer might make it easier for Joe Sixpack to realize that he can put in an OS CD.