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The RIAA and French Button-Makers
Alien54 writes
"Requiring permission to innovate? Feeling entitled to search others' property? Getting the power to act like law enforcement in order to fine or arrest those who are taking part in activities that challenge your business model? Don't these all sound quite familiar? Centuries from now (hopefully much, much sooner), the actions of the RIAA, MPAA and others that match these of the weavers and button-makers of 17th century France will seem just as ridiculous."
in the mid 1800s, it was customary for the usa to give the finger to european copyright laws and publish any book they wanted to, without any royalties sent to the old world
now we have the usa whining to china/ thailand/ indonesia/ etc to enforce american IP laws, with beijing playing lipservice for political and economic reasons while on the streets of hong kong you can still buy $10,000 worth of software bundled on a CD/ DVD for $3
and obviously, in 150 years, china will be issuing diplomatic myspace invectives to azerbaijan for stealing it's genetic code for it's zero G, no atmosphere moon crops... or whatever
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Theres something lacking from the submitted article, namely what did French authorities do to remedy this situation...Or did they let the button-guild run rampant for centuries?
If we're doomed to repeat our history, lets at least flesh out said history so we know what to expect. Maybe we can even escape the doom of repeating our history with a little more thought.
http://www.mirrordot.org/stories/085eb68e1d35f85a0 11622abd62ced01/index.html
The Jacquard Loom users were sharing torrents of punch card patterns.
12:50 - press return.
Person X choreographs system 1 on behalf of association P. Association P wishes to impose the condition that anyone wishing to use bits of system 1 in their own work must pay them. They cannot.
Person Y choreographs system 2 on behalf of association L. Association L wishes to impose the condition that anyone wishing to use bits of system 2 in their own work shall be unable to charge money for it. They can, as self-evident and universe-given as the wind and the water and the whispers in the trees.
Logic of the 21st century, future generations will laugh their behinds off.
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"No matter where you go, there you are." -- Buckaroo Banzai
Centuries from now the actions of the RIAA will seem ridiculous? I was under the opinion that they seemed that way now!
If a private company being given the same powers as the police doesn't seem ridiculous, there is something else wrong.
Does a line appended to your comment give your post meaning in and of itself, or only in relation to those without?
Sorry, but this analogy does not hold up. The MPAA is not stopping anyone from making original movies. They are simply saying that you cannot copy someone else's work and call it your own. The French button makers wanted to ban button making completely for anyone outside their guild.
trying to protect their turfs, knowing that their time has passed.
Do you know those ridiculous laws, where it's required that a man with a flag or lantern runs in front of a car? No, the legislative ain't always been stupid (and these century old laws being the proof), they exist for exactly the same reason why train stations are usually at the outskirts of towns (or, at least, were 'til the towns grew): The horse cabs were fearing for their business.
And for a good reason. They weren't needed anymore as a means of transport if people could drive themselves, or if they could use the train instead. So the stations were outside of towns (to "protect the health" of the people, of course, as the official reason), so you had to take a cab to get there anyway.
We're now facing the same with the mafiaa. They are pushing at the lawmakers to install laws to protect their outdated business model, not wanting to realize that their time is over and they're not needed anymore.
Well, I guess in a century, people will shake their heads over our copyright laws, just like we're shaking them now over the requirement of men with flags in front of cars.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
I'm no fan of the RIAA and by no means condone their actions to defend "their" blessed IP, but there's a key difference between the RIAA and the French Button-Makers. Those who dared innovate with buttons made of cloth would be punished because it completely cut the button makers out of the loop. The RIAA has not yet gone after those who dare produce music (independant bands, labels, social networking, etc.) without being under their auspices.
About the only similarity I see is that both the guilds and the RIAA are asshats and were going after end-users. Beyond that, the analogy breaks down.
Needlepoint patterns are a frequent copyright hot zone on the web, newsgroups, etc. Ah well, at least when the lawyertroopers of the NPAA haul some needlepointing granny into court, they've probably got the right copyright terrorist.
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
All your buttons are belong to us
The French buttonmakers were wary of being undersold and made redundant by cheaper methods/producers. The **AA are keen to protect the way their product is distributed and used. They may wish but cannot prosecute other artists/publishers from publishing content w/o DRM or anything else. What they want to do or keep is their own product from being distributed against their will. That is, to be against it being virtually freely duplicated and/or redistributed w/o compensation to them. One might not like their greed, but it's greed for their product -the one they have rights to by law. The **AA are not persuing other people from giving giving or distributing their own stuff in their own way. the French buttonmakers were against others competing against them in ways that undersold them or made them redundant.
I just think it's interesting but a different situation altogether.Licensing schemes are in essence a form or rights management. One does not go about as an entity violating the license solely to take it as one's own and doing as one pleases with a bit of software. There are law-related repercussions if one were to violate the licenses in software if the licesor sees it fit to persue the infringer. There are restrictions one needs to abide by
to America and probably why Henry James lived in England to my mind. Things start to make sense.
- Player Pianos - When these were introduced, they were hated by musicians because they thought it threatened their livelihood, "who's going to pay us to play when you can just get one of these pianos?"
- Phonograph Records - Many musicians hated these for the same reason when they first came out, "who's going to pay us to play when you can just buy a record for a couple of bucks?"
- Radio broadcasts of records - When radio stations first began broadcasting records instead of live music performances, many musicians again felt this threatened them, "Who's going to buy our records when they can hear them on the radio for free?"
In hindsight it's obvious that none of these technologies were threats to musicians and in fact, in many cases they helped them.This is probably going to get moded down, but I feel the urge to play devils advocate here. The *AAs have pissed me off as much as the next guy, but there have always been guilds and trade unions that try to protect craftsman from being exploited. These are generally a good thing; without them people work 80 hours a week for pennies a day, and children lose their fingers to factory machines. Part of protecting the tradesmen means protecting the trade itself, and the system by which a person becomes a tradesmen. Aren't you glad that you have a guild that certifies whether or not someone is actually competent to practice medicine before you go under the knife? Don't you feel a little bit more comfortable hiring an electrical contractor who has been certified by other "master" electricians as being capable of installing wiring that won't burn your house down?
Speaking as someone who works in the entertainment industry, entertainment is a product like anything else. It is a business like any other, and a business whose workings few people ("artists" inclusive) really understand. Any sales outfit will tell you that you need to sell at a 15% margin just to cover your costs, anything beyond that is your actual profit. Yet this is something that few artists really grasp, and it's why most of them are labeled as "starving." The *AAs handle the business side of things because that's what they're good at. All you programmers out there, raise your hands up if you think you're any different. Everyone who isn't an independent contractor and works for someone else, put your hands down.
We as artists, programmers, carpenters, what have you need the guild associations. We as a society need them to protect ourselves and our artisans from exploitation. Something that you need to understand is that the guilds are run by "masters," people who presumably know more about the trade because they've been doing it longer. People who, in other words, are set in their ways. Innovation flies in the face of what they recognize as common sense, so of course they're opposed to it. Now quit whining. Are you capable of making better music? Are you capable of being a better programmer? Are you capable of making better movies? Nothing in the world is stopping you from quitting your job and trusting yourself to the free market, and in an era where anyone can burn a CD the costs of doing business are cheap.
And before you start thinking that the federal government shouldn't be enforcing the wisdom of the guilds, just take a breath and consider your surgeon's credentials next time you find yourself in the ER. It's a fair point that music is a lot different than medicine, but this is America folks. If you don't want politicians to regulate art, tell them! Tell them, tell them, tell them, tell them, tell them! Stop being a whiny ignoramus and use the friggin political system your forefathers fought to give you. And you know what? If your elected officials don't do what you want, replace them. If you can't find anyone to do what you want, then run yourself!
The artistic, economic, and political power is in your hands. Start using it and quit your griping. You are free to boycott. I haven't bought anything from Amazon since they got their 1-Click patent, and I have done so with no regrets. If you don't like the *AA's business model, stop doing business with them. Nothing is making you buy that CD. You have played your part in making the system what it is.
"There has grown up in the minds of certain groups in this country the notion that because a man or corporation has made a profit out of the public for a number of years, the government and the courts are charged with the duty of guaranteeing such profit in the future, even in the face of changing circumstances and contrary to public interest. This strange doctrine is not supported by statute or common law. Neither individuals nor corporations have any right to come into court and ask that the clock of history be stopped, or turned back."
- Robert Heinlein, "Life Line", 1939
[Insert pithy quote here]
I don't see how this has much bearing on what's happening now. The guilds in Europe were a powerful force for centuries, from the dawn of the Middle Ages on. They covered just about every facet of life from fine arts (painters) to crafts and trades (weavers, plumbers, carpenters, silversmiths) to the food chain (butchers, fishmongers). They served any number of useful purposes including protecting their members (basically the middle class) from the abuses of the nobility and the church; setting up standards and best practices; and developing formalized methods for training (the system of apprentice/journeyman/master craftsman). As someone here has pointed out, that system survives today in the training and certification of certain trades such as plumbers and electricians.
One good way to appreciate the power and function of the guilds is to read about the long history of the city of London; it has evolved to the present day on the basis of the actions of the guilds and their interactions with other parts of society.
The article is shallow and superficial. When I read it, part of my mind sided with the French buttonmakers. They saw their tradecraft being walmartized, and they protested.
"Here's what's happening. You're starting to drive like your Dad..." - Red Green
When gasoline powered road vehicles started to appear in larger numbers, and agricultural machinery became more portable, the Act was repealed.
Pining for the fjords
In Mexico City central avenue (Eje 1) or Tepito market you can buy Autodesk Maya Unlimited 8.5 for $3.0 the DVD. And games are usually $1 for each CD.
That is why I laugh REALLY hard when I read that RIAA is going to start prosecuting P2P file downloaders in Mexico...
Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
Dr. Hackenbush (Groucho Marx) is using his watch to take a patient's pulse.
"Either he's dead, or my watch has stopped."
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seeking active english speaking mage/warrior/lawyer, must be lvl 50+ for guild raids and quests.
Although I TFA interesting, I'm not sure I would assign RIAA or the MPAA the dignity of association (even by analogy) of craftsmens guilds or trade unions. This whole issue of DRM is not just about the trends and traditions within certain professions, but is really instead about the much larger problem of unchecked monopolies with seemingly unlimited government access. To that end, I think a quote by G.K. Chesterton might be even more appropriate than the excellent Heinlein quote posted elsewhere:
From the standpoint of any sane person, the present problem of capitalist concentration is not only a question of law, but of criminal law, not to mention criminal lunacy." - "A Case In Point," G.K. Chesterton, The Outline of Sanity
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool. -Richard Feynman
exhibit the same power over users of the printing press? The very thing tthat started this whole IP mess to begin with.
What?
A more fitting example is that of the Stationers Company holding a publishing monopoly for much of 2 centuries.
m
The U.S. was founded at a time where freedom from such long-lived monopolies was important.
Unfortunately, Copyright monopolies have been extended from 13 years to 90-120 years.
http://www.culturaleconomics.atfreeweb.com/cpu.ht
i do not embrace the usa, i am no nationalist, and the usa has done plenty of wrong in the world. the usa has also done plenty of good in the world. imagine that: it's done both. blindly excusing the usa for its crimes OR blindly ignoring the good the usa has done are both prejudices of equal intellectual dishonesty
but some people ascribe to american behavior what is nothing more than human behavior, common to all peoples, common to the history of the entire world, common to all current cultures. anti-americans castigate the usa for crimes that all nations commit. this doesn't excuse the usa, but why focus only on the usa when other countries do/ did the same? of course, when other countries do the same, it's all easily explained by... the nefarious influence of washington dc. i'm amazed sometimes at diatribes that wind up by logical inference from creative lines of reasoning for blaming the usa for situations and conditions that existed before the usa itself even existed!
if you have a crime that the usa specifically and uniquely does, then please, by all means, enter into the withering invectives
but if you want to sound intelligent, and not like a blind ethnocentric nationalist yourself, try not to criticize the usa for something all nations and peoples are guilty of. it makes your blind prejudice obvious and pathetic
look: blindly embracing and excusing the usa (or any nation) is simple stupid nationalism
but blindly kicking and incriminating the usa (or any nation) is EQUALLY simple and stupid nationalism
the only morally and intellectually sound point of view on the usa, or any nation, is to look at what they have done as good, and what they have done as bad. anything else, and you're a blind ethnocentric nationalist. whether that means you blindly prosecute the usa, or blindly love the usa.
yes: you. you are the same as an american ultranationalist. such a person is stupid. so are you. the only intelligent point of view of the usa is one that sees the good and bad and can wiegh both in their mind at the same time impartially
all else is useless boring typical lowest common denominator tribal vendetta
people have to learn to talk IDEAS, not TRIBES
until they do, people like you are part of the problems in the world, not the solution to them
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
I wish the RIAA and MPAA would take advice from the French and just surrender.
I'd be more happy to pay more and even tolerate a little more regulation of the music/movies industry if there were quality control. However, what they're currently "protecting" is stuff that's good and a few decades old, and a lot of stuff that's crap and current... but overpromoted, overpriced, and overblown.
Maybe people wouldn't be downloading copies of Song X if the fact that it was the one good track on a $25 disc full of otherwise crap, or they wouldn't be downloading Movie Y because of the last three they watched, two were overhyped crap and they're no longer willing to pay $20-30 to be forced into watching ads, previews, and a ludicrously shitty movie with any redeeming scenes already given away in the previews.
So yeah, if you want a guild of musicians, actors, or screenwriters, how about a little quality control on who gets membership nowadays.
Since the disbandment of the button guild, there has been no innovation in buttons and button related tech in the last 300 years. Surely we must all send dollars to the RIAAs immediately, or music may die forever!
Sometimes, life itself is sarcasm...
Who gave the button-makers the right to stop people from making buttons out of fabric?
Who gave the RIAA the right to say that I can't watch some movie that I legally acquired, in my computer, because I run Linux?
It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
By "domestic product" are you refering to the U.S. or China? Because innovation in the U.S. has withered significantly. For example, you've got Bill Gates stating that he couldn't build another Microsoft if software patents had been around.
For another example, if we had to invent the Internet today, it wouldn't be developed nearly as quickly, nor be as widespread. The RFC process (which built the Internet) would be subject to constant submarine patent attacks, NDA's, and a plethora of greedy leechers (lawyers and your typical MBA) trying to corner as much of the market as they could.
The U.S. software industry was quite healthy (and innovative!) before DRM based copy protection and before Software Patents. When anyone could indeed freely copy any software they liked for their own personal use. In fact, this is what build the industry that we have now.
Gosh, that little reality check shoots your whole point down if you're talking about China.
Only complete morons actually believe what the Anonymous Coward parent said, so refuting his claims is kinda pointless.
We all know the best way to scorn someone is to compare them to the French. Well done article!
> Unfortunately, Copyright monopolies have been extended from 13 years to 90-120 years.
Life+70 in the US, actually, unless I badly misremember. I think it's "only" life+50 in the UK (and they're trying to bring that to "parity" with US law).
Works done by corporations / groups of people only last 70 years or something, though, oddly enough. But don't take my word for it--look it up.
"Spreading Freedom" sort of sounds like "Manifest Destiny: Part 2"
but there are a lot of them. a lot of people believe what the parent poster says. so refuting his claims is fruitful, not pointless. not because i have much chance of illuminating the dim bulb, but because its important to speak out against stupidity when it has mass appeal
just like creationists, blindly pro-america or blindly anti-america morons are of course utterly stupid. but you can't laugh, you have to cry. because there are SO MANY OF THEM. and they are highly motivated and highly outspoken. combined with their stupidity, that just makes them dangerous, and it makes it important to speak out against them, so that at least reason is heard
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
But now I think of it, and even in Europe (I won't even mention the Muslim world) it's a pretty prominent opinion.
http://www.copyright.cornell.edu/training/Hirtle_P ublic_Domain.htm
"
After 1 March 1989:
70 years after death of author, or if work of corporate authorship, the shorter of 95 years from publication, or 120 years from creation2"
Since Corporations are corporations have enough power to bring the FBI (or police in your country) to your door with guns, I would tend to focus on them. And they were the ones pushing for the extensions.
95-120 years.