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Amazon Adjusts Prices After Sales Error
An anonymous reader writes "On December 23, Amazon advertised a 'buy one get one free' sale on DVD box-sets, but apparently did not test the promotion before going live. When anyone placed two box-sets in their cart, the website gave a double discount — so the 'grand total' shown (before order submission) was $0.00 or some very small amount. Despite terms stating that Amazon checks order prices before shipping, Amazon shipped a large number of these orders. Five days later (December 28), after orders had been received and presumably opened, Amazon emailed customers advising them to return the box-sets unopened or their credit cards would be charged an additional amount (more threads). Starting yesterday, Amazon has been (re)charging credit cards, often without authorization. On Amazon's side, they didn't advertise any double discount, and the free or nearly-free box-sets must have cost them a mint. But with Amazon continually giving unadvertised discounts that seem to be errors, is 'return the merchandise or be charged' the new way that price glitches will be handled?"
...and they sold it for the price they specified. The problem is their fault and why should a customer care or be responsible for the problem on Amazon's end?
If a guy sells his car while drunk for a small amount of money, or gambles it away while drunk, it's his fault entirely not the buyers.
It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile
Be yourself no matter what they say
It is for this reason that fraud protection exists. Visa and other major credit card providers will generally charge back the vendor in cases like this, as it is essentially fraud.
What proof do we have that this was an honest mistake? They could have done this intentionally. Not that I think they really did, but is it even legal for them to pull this bait and switch? They can't charge your card without your authorization, right? RIGHT?!
MOrality?
A price was agreed upon by both parties. If anyone is not being moral it's the person at Amazon who has decided to change the terms of the deal after the transaction has been completed.
The fact that the business failed because it was automated is a fault in theer business practice. It is not the fault of the customers. The customer can NOT know what the business has done or what deals the business has made, or what special promotions the business is running, or a myriad of other things.
If you got a notice right now saying you were undercharged 10,000 dollars for your car, would you pay?
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
"We can categorically state we have not released man-eating badgers into the area." - UK military spokesman, July 2007
Amazon aren't the police. They can't raid your house in order to get their stuff back: that is also a felony. Yes, it is wrong for people to refuse to pay Amazon what is due them, a clerical error of this sort should not be taken advantage of. If a customer were to accidentally add a zero to a payment, there would be uproar if Amazon refused to refund it. However, that doesn't mean they can just start making unauthorised withdrawals from other people's bank accounts.
My appreciation of Douglas Adams is far deeper than yours.
There is such a thing as an "implied contract" when a Sale is made. The contract terms such as "All Sales Final" must be clearly stated, the price, any warranty, return periods, etc. Anything someone on EITHER side does to dishonor the terms is breach and possible fraud. I run a small business (actually it is the spouse business) and one time I sold an expensive item (jewely) for about 80% of what it should have sold for, it was a credit card sale so we COULD have ran a seperate charge for the difference. The honest thing to do (and legal) was to EAT the difference. Amazon should do the same. If they don't they just lost me as a customer. And hopefully those they tried to re-bill are no longer customers. Barnes & Noble dot com here I come! Your analog to the money at the bank is flawed, it's not at all the same thing. The product belongs to you as you honored your side of the contract. The money bag you knew clearly was the property of someone else which you had no rights either stated or implied to possess. That makes it theft.
Strict legality aside, let's sit back, take a deep breath, and test out your comment in the physical world.
You walk into Best Buy, select your merchandise then take it to a checkout counter. The clerk charges you $0.00 and the receipt reflects that. You exit the store and on the way to your car the manager approaches you with the error.
Realistically, what's going to happen next?
BestBuy could have canceled the order for little or no reason at all. They -can- suddenly decide not to sell those products at that price and cancel the order.
Instead, they were VERY nice and gave $50 to each customer that they inconvenienced with this.
The customer was not 'responsible' for the mistake. The customers still had ample opportunity to cancel the order completely as it was still a pre-order and nothing had been shipped and very little time had passed.
Amazon did something completely different. They shipped a product to a person and THEN claimed the person owed them more money. Last I checked, it was illegal to ship something to someone for free and then charge them for it. It used to be a mail scam. (The difference there being that the customer didn't ask for it at all, though.) Amazon is clearly in the wrong every time they charge someone's card that didn't agree to it. BestBuy didn't do that.
"If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
While Amazon.com did make a mistake, the advertised price was buy one get one free. Even though the checkout stated $0.00, it can be argued that the customer agreed to pay for one of those boxed sets.
While many people have a problem with Amazon, I have had nothing but the best experiences dealing with them. Their customer service has been top notch the one time I have needed them, they ship fast, and they ship for free.
While it sucks that a mistake was made, I think these customers are being a bit greedy expecting to get "something for nothing." While Amazon represents the "big corporation" and people love to screw with big companies (and some probably deserve it), I think its morally wrong for people to expect to not have to pay for the merchandise received.
I got nothin'
Well when you click on a product on a website you are not agreeing to buy. The only point in which you agree to buy is AFTER you have entered your CC number and you see a final total and you hit the submit/I agree/whatever button.
"it can be argued that the customer agreed to pay for one of those boxed sets."
Well, it could be argued that Jeff Bezos was the second gunman on the grassy knoll but that doesn't mean it's actually true.
In reality, though, every shopping cart that I've ever used or developed has a step, after shipping and tax is calculated, where the user is asked to confirm their purchase and authorize the sale. A similar step occurs in offline-processing, where the full amount is shown on the screen and you are asked to confirm, by either swiping your card and entering your pin, or by signing the receipt.
THIS is the step where you agree to the price and accept the terms. You couldn't possible agree and confirm a price before this step because it wouldn't include shipping/taxes.
And while IANAL, I believe that at this step, Amazon is responsible for their own mistake. They showed the user a price. The user was given a chance to say confirm his order and authorize charges. He did so.
This is a contract, it's been digitally signed.
Amazon is trying to make it so their mistake costs them nothing. That's certainly a nice fuzzy warm thing to think about, but in the real world, there is a price to pay for mistakes.
If you got a notice right now saying you were undercharged 10,000 dollars for your car, would you pay?
Well, if I only paid $0.00 for it in the first place, I might expect to be asked to return the car or pay a fair price later.
I think the problem with Amazon's deal isn't really any different than walking into a store, taking something to the cashier, having the cashier just put it in a bag and leaving without paying. Even if the cashier says "just go ahead and take it", that doesn't make it right.
Taking advantage of a broken automated system isn't any more moral than stealing if you know the price isn't appropriate.
If an ATM gave you money and didn't deduct it from your account, would you tell the bank?
Some people have a way with words, and some people, um, thingy.
IANAL but this is certainly what a customer is likely to argue in court. The seller has the responsibility to make sure that the invoice total is correct. No excuses. It is very clear that the final 'accept' button is an offer of a contract.
Its a losing proposition for Amazon here. They are going to get crucified by chargebacks for the unauthorized purchases.
The mailings telling people to return the merchandise would appear to risk falling into the category of demanding payment for unsolicited goods. The customer agreed to pay for the goods but for the stated price.
Just fire the middle manager who you have bungling the remediation on this, eat the ten million or so and move on.
Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
Another scenario: you order the DVD box sets from Amazon but a few weeks later (after the return window), you realize that you got charged too much for the purchase. Amazon refuses to refund the overcharge. Is Amazon right or wrong? After all, at the end of the transaction, you agreed to a price for the delivered goods.
It works both ways; if you expect Amazon (or any business or individual) to correct an error after the transaction that works in your favor, then you don't have any room to complain when the entity tries to correct an error after the fact in their favor.
Government's idea of a balanced budget: take money from the right pocket to balance...oh who am I kidding?
Amazon is the one big corporation I have found that cares about its customers. Many times they have swallowed return shipping for heavy items way after their 30 day limit (just by asking them politely), and they routinely adjust your charge if they lower their prices (send email) etc.
So, let's get back to the issue. People saw on various threads on the net "Amazon Price Mistake!" logged on to Amazon and started ordering away, hoping their orders will get through. Probably the ebayers were the fist to take advantage of this. Now it was obvious to them that it was an error in the final cost calculation, as the promo rules were clear. There were even threads about the ethics of this on the various fora such as DVD Talk.
Amazon does send many of these orders (my guess is many thousands) and when they realize it they apologise and they ask to pay return shipping to get them back or to charge the right amount. Then people start acusing Amazon.
Wow. Just wow. I think because the general rule is to hate big corporations, we applaud people who try to steal from them? Yes, I would consider it stealing if you try to take advantage of a price mistake (especially if you do it to make money off ebay) AND you complain when the merchant wants to correct it. Yes, if the big corporation does not loose a lot of money, they will not bother you about it (consider it something like advertisment costs) and you would be fine with your conscience. But the fact that Amazon (with the amazing IMHO CS record) asks this, it meens that way too many people took advantage of this (I would bet most not for personal use) that they have to cut back their losses.
Now, IANAL, but I have read many times on slashdot about cases such as the one with the animal (I forgot, was it cow or horse or sth?) that was cheap for meat but was not sterile after all so the court annuled the low price contract. In the animal case the buyer did not even know more than the seller - it was just luck - while with the Amazon situation the buyers were aware of the mistake on the seller part, something which makes the case simpler to me.
Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Polar Scope Align for iOS
Let's think about this for a second... If you go to Wal*Mart, and buy a jar of pickles marked 2/$5 and get to the checkout, and they only charge you $0.50 because they had the wrong price in their system (which happens quite often), then Wal*Mart can't come to your house later and mug you to make up for it. Amazon should have verified the prices BEFORE shipping. If they had done their due diligence, then they would have canceled the order and e-mailed the customer. This is totally Amazon's fault and as many others have suggested, these customers should refuse the charges on their next statement.
-TheDawgLives suckitdown
{You got charged too much} or {You agreed to pay the stated quantity on checkout}?
If just before clicking "Proceed with payment", the deal is $X, then you'll have to pay $X. This story is not on "what users were charged with", but on "what users agreed to pay on checkout".
My 0.02 cents
t isn't my fault. it is the cashier's fault
Right and wrong aren't about assigning blame.
Here's another analogy. You go to WalMart and buy a sleeping bag and the clerk at the counter mistakenly rings you up for $5.00 instead of $50.00. Or he or she hands you $50 in change when the register says $5.00. You absolutely can leave the store with "your" extra money, but if you admitted in court that you knew it was a mistake, I'm sure the law would say you stole the money, and so would anyone else. So anyone who accepts the second DVD set knowingly under false pretenses has stolen it. And you cannot convincingly say you didn't know that Amazon was not giving away free DVD sets, come on, that's not an honest argument. Amazon has a right to get their money back, but they should ask a court to allow it.
Currently hooked on AMP
A receipt with a price of zero is strong evidence that there was no exchange of valuable consideration, which puts into question the legitimacy and enforcability of any contract that generated the transaction documented by the receipt.
The right thing to do might be for beneficiaries of this mistake to pay a correct, reasonable price for the items received, so that they, and all other customers, don't end up paying more in the future. But that would require thinking and acting like a non-exploitative member of a broader community.
There are 1.1... kinds of people.
Agreed, I think perhaps the return shipment fees should be on Amazon's dime - that way the are immunized from blame of some sort of scam. When it's online I think certain rules apply, and "send it back or be charged" is definately justified.
I'm sorry, that's total BS.
If I charge my client a price for an item or service, and they stand up to their end of our bargin, I must stand up for my end... period.
If I accidentally give them a quote with no shipping costs on it, for example... well, I eat shipping on that order.
If I quote them a price on a special order item, then go to order it and realize the price I had was old, well, that's my fault too, not my customers. We made a deal, and they lived up to their end of it.
Going back after the fact to revise the terms of your deal is not only fraudulent, but opens the door to huge amount of intentional fraud. A contract would have no legitamacy at all... "whups, sorry, I messed up, let's rewrite the deal".
I'm sorry, if you cannot be bothered to keep your own systems in order, you pay the price of failure. Amazon has no right and should have no expectation whatsoever that a single one of those customers would or should return what they purchased, fairly, for a price Amazon told them was good. Period.
As would I. I have little sympathy for the people who jumped on this mistake and tried to milk it. But there are people involved here who did not do this, as well. People who just tried to buy stuff, perhaps didn't notice that they had been charged less than they should have been, and then went on to spend the money they would have spent on the DVDs on other stuff. DVDs are luxury items, many of us have quite limited budgets to spend on such things.
AND you complain when the merchant wants to correct it.
The merchant is perfectly entitle to correct it, IMO. Here's how they should go about doing this:
How this is different from what Amazon are doing:
Now, IANAL, but I have read many times on slashdot about cases such as the one with the animal (I forgot, was it cow or horse or sth?) that was cheap for meat but was not sterile after all so the court annuled the low price contract.
You're probably talking about Sherwood v Walker. Note this text:
The vendor decided to cancel the contract before taking payment, not afterwards. This makes a substantial difference.
Maybe they did, and maybe it was just an honest thing that didn't get properly QA'd -- bugs *do* happen in software, as most people here can attest since we write and maintain it. But, testing is their responsibility before they have customers using it. If Amazon made the mistake, then Amazon can eat the cost of it. I agree with with you on that point.
Unless you have any evidence to suggest that outsourced Indian programmers who can't add are responsible for this, that just seems way over the top. Sad to see that racial intolerance will get you a +5 insightful mod on Slashdot nowadays.
For all you know the guy who fscked this up is a white American protestant living in Buttfuck Idaho -- possibly a whole team of them. Basically saying it's the fault of a bunch of illiterate Indians is pointless.
Cheers
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
I walk into a store and pick up a item. I take it to the register. It scans at the wrong price. The cashier doesn't notice. He hands me a receipt, bags my item and wished me a good day. I leave the store. The transaction is complete.
Personally, If I got outside and realized I hadn't paid for something, I would return to the store and hand over the money due. But could the store, upon realizing their fuckup, unilaterally decide to place a second charge on my credit card? I hope not.
To reiterate: I agree that ethically folks should be willing to pay the advertised price. But legally can Amazon demand that they do?
It seems to me that you're confusing the law and morality. I don't know where you got into your head that one had anything to do with the other...
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Made from the freshest electrons.
This isn't the same. Looking at the flyer with a printer error doesn't make you cough up the cash. When you go to the store, the clerk there can telll you there was a printing error, the price is actually $8001, and to apologize for the inconvenience. In fact, these things happen often, and you tend to see correction notices posted around the store if such a thing happens. In this case, you haven't paid for the product, received it and opened it. Which is what's happening with Amazon. They are charging you because of a mistake on their end AFTER the transaction has been completed and you have received the item.
It comes down to contract law I suspect
Yes, lovely lovely contract law, which, when push comes to shove, really just says that a contract means what the two parties thought it means when they agreed to the contract.
If an American company and a British guy were to enter into a contract in which the American company were to provide boots to the British guy and the American company knew full well that the British guy thinks boots are those storage spaces at the back of automobiles, the American company would get in trouble if they shipped the guy a box of calf-high footwear.
Oh, but the contract says boots! Tough luck! Not quite. Amazingly, common sense would prevail.
If Amazon is offering a buy one, get one free sale and the customer knows that Amazon is offering a buy one, get one free sale then if the customer acts upon that sale, it doesn't matter so much what the contract (bill of sale) says, it MEANS that the customer is going to buy one and then get one free. There was simply an honest mistake in the contract. What becomes of such a thing?
1) If the customer knows the contract is a mistake and goes ahead with the intention of profiting, it borders on fraud.
2) If the customer doesn't realize that it is a mistake ("ooh I must be the lucky 100th buyer, I get both for free!"), then the contract is simply invalid. As you know, a contract is only valid once both sides receive appropriate consideration! Paying nothing or nearly nothing for $50+ worth of DVDs is not appropriate consideration.
Amazon is acting like a good corporation, assuming you are an honest person and asking you to either return the unopened DVDs to make it like the contract never happened or to pay the price they intended to charge you to make the contract a valid contract.
Consumer protection laws are not likely to come into play. First, they protect consumers acting in good faith. If you were to challenge credit card charges or cancel a card to avoid paying, who is going to believe you are acting in good faith? Certainly not a judge. Second, if you were to act like a proper citizen and take the high road while still maintaining that you should be entitled to the whole thing for free, Amazon is not going to pursue it very long. They have better things to do; they'll just refund your money and offer an apology.
Here's another analogy. But in reverse.
You go to WalMart and buy a sleeping bag that was mispriced at $500. (perhaps some toddler moved the sticker from some other product.) Perhaps you didn't even see the sticker, but you know from having looked previously that the price is around $50 bucks. However the clerk at the counter mindlessly rings you up for $500.00 instead of $50. And without paying attention you sign your cc slip and happily and walk out of the store. A few days later you realize you've paid $500, a clear mistake, and you take the bag and receipt back to Walmart and ask for your money back.
If walmart were to say, "its a completed sale, its got a $500 sticker on it, its wasn't advertised as less anywhere else in the store the day you bought it, so no refunds; you were clearly appraised of the price at checkout, and you even signed your credit card slip" you'd probably throw a SCREAMING FIT.
Why is it ok to screw amazon, but a dirty sin if you get screwed?
Fwiw, I think amazon probably doesn't have a much of a legal leg to stand on in reclaiming the funds. However, they are indisputably in the right morally, and anyone that deliberately took advantage of this is morally bankrupt, doubly so if they aren't willing to make amends.
Reminds of a law & order episode, where some girl agreed to be a surrogate mother for a childless couple in exchage for cash, and then acts depressed and threatens to have abortion in order to extract additional money and gifts from the couple... turned out there's nothing actually illegal about that either...
I guess its ok then.
Sociopaths.
(PS The "you" in the analagies above refers to the people who took advantage of amazon, not the parent poster.)
When it's online I think certain rules apply, and "send it back or be charged" is definately justified.
It doesn't matter if it's justified or not. It's most likely a violation of their agreement with the credit card processing company and it's certainly a violation of the customer. If I agree to a $100 invoice and approve the charge on my card they can't later change that to $200 because they screwed up.
All that said, I have a lot of respect for Amazon and have done a lot of business with them. It's pretty low to take advantage of their mistake like this. But it was their mistake and that doesn't mean that they get to change the rules and start charging peoples cards after the fact.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.