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A Unique Perspective on a 'Game-Related' Tragedy

Posted by Zonk on from the for-low-values-of-related dept.

Megnatron writes "Penny Arcade has a letter from the stepmother of one of the kids who was recently charged with killing a homeless man. Her article is an extremely sobering tale of the problems dealing with troubled teen. She explains how, in this situation, the parents did everything they possibly could. And, in a refreshing twist, she absolves the games industry of any blame for the tragedy these kids perpetrated. From her missive: 'Video games DID NOT make this kid who he was, and it's unfortunate that the correlation is there. The thing that really gets me with this whole thing is that the kid knows full well that by equating what he's done to a video game, that he will generate controversy and media coverage. It makes me sick that the media is jumping all over this, because that is exactly the result that he wants. The only good thing (if there is such a thing) that has come out of this whole ordeal is that the kid is behind bars. That is exactly where he needs to be.'" Her letter is a passionate, troubling story, but well worth reading.

71 of 378 comments (clear)

  1. Scarily familiar... by RogueyWon · · Score: 4, Interesting

    My word.

    It's quite impressive really, how a web-comic that deliberately sets out to be juvenile and offensive so often ends up involved in a reasonably respectable way in some pretty big news stories.

    I know this probably isn't the most appropriate comment, but I this whole thing really does remind me strongly of this book. In fact, the echos are bordering on being uncanny. I guess it all boils down to the question of whether somebody can just be "born bad".

    The evidence both from this case (if the account here is to be believed) and my own experiences is "yes, they can". I'm not sure anybody in the political or academic estabishments really want to face up to the implications of this, though.

    1. Re:Scarily familiar... by drinkypoo · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I guess it all boils down to the question of whether somebody can just be "born bad".

      Frankly, all of science points to the answer being "yes". In fact there are numerous examples of people becoming downright evil from head trauma. And just like the ending of fight club, there is at least one case where the opposite is true. (Truth is stranger than fiction, after all.)

      In fact a fairly recent study also stated that those people who are just happy all the time no matter what haven't made a decision to be that way. It is not an exercise of will. Those people are actually physiologically different.

      The simple truth is that some people simply are born bad. I'm torn on whether we should be curing them, or implementing George Carlin's idea and turning the four corner states into a gigantic prison, and just throw them in there.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:Scarily familiar... by spun · · Score: 5, Informative

      I don't think there is any question that people can be born bad. It's called anti-social personality disorder, and in its more extreme forms, sociopathic or psychopathic. There is an acronym for remembering the diagnostic criteria: corrupt.
              * C - cannot follow law
              * O - obligations ignored
              * R - remorselessness
              * R - recklessness
              * U - underhandedness
              * P - planning deficit
              * T - temper

      Here's the checklist for a psychopath
            1. Glibness/superficial charm
            2. Grandiose sense of self-worth
            3. Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
            4. Pathological lying
            5. Cunning/manipulative
            6. Lack of remorse or guilt
            7. Shallow affect
            8. Callous/lack of empathy
            9. Parasitic lifestyle
          10. Poor behavioral controls
          11. Promiscuous sexual behavior
          12. Early behavioral problems
          13. Lack of realistic, long-term goals
          14. Impulsivity
          15. Irresponsibility
          16. Failure to accept responsibility for own actions
          17. Many short-term marital relationships
          18. Juvenile delinquency
          19. Revocation of conditional release
          20. Criminal versatility

      That's a pretty clear definition of "bad."

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    3. Re:Scarily familiar... by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Ultimately, humans have free will and choose their own actions. Saying someone is "born bad" is equivilant to saying that they have been possessed by Satan. It's not a valid argument.

      I'll will admit that people can be born with violent temperaments. They can be born with harsh attitudes or a lack of empathy. However all but the most severely mentally disabled are born with free will and the ability to reason. People may not intuatively understand right from wrong, but they still know what is acceptable and what is not.

      This is why I don't accept the argument that someone is not responsible for their actions because they've had a "hard life" or were "born bad" or live in a "bad neighbourhood". I can be sympathetic, but ultimately I must insist that people take responsibilty for the decisions they have made. I don't think it's a lot to ask.

      Blaming society, or genetics, or your parents, or video games or anything else for decisions you yourself have made is an insult to everyone who does accept the consequences of their actions. It's an insult to your own dignity as you are claiming you have lost your own free will.

      There are people in this world who were born with physical and mental disabilities. People who have suffered accidents, abuse, insult, poverty and hardship of every kind. Even people who play video games. And most of these people live their lives, despite having to work that much harder at them. They overcome their problems, make an honest living and contribute to the society they live in. Often they contribute more than other more fortunate individuals. Even people with violent personalities or troubled pasts can still find a positive place in society.

      When you argue that people are "born bad" or otherwise don't have free will, you're arguing that all these people are wasting their time. That they will never overcome their difficulties and they should either give up an committ a crime, cause trouble, go insane or just kill themselves. That is a flawed assumption. We all have the power to change our own lifes, and to alter the course of our lives. That's what seperates humans from animals.

      This kid could have lead a better life. He chose not to. It had nothing to do with his mental chemistry. That was solid enough to allow him to dress himself every morning, walk without stumbling and converse with people when he needed to. He wasn't born bad. He chose to be bad. His parents didn't make that choice. Neither did his genes, or his playstation, or his neighbourhood. He did. Anything else is just an excuse.

      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
    4. Re:Scarily familiar... by rkanodia · · Score: 3, Funny

      You're on slashdot? The raid started half an hour ago; that's a minus fifty dee kay pee!

    5. Re:Scarily familiar... by Longfinger · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Ultimately, humans have free will and choose their own actions.

      What makes you say that? Free will is an assumption, not a scientific fact.

    6. Re:Scarily familiar... by argStyopa · · Score: 5, Insightful

      When you argue that people are "born bad" or otherwise don't have free will, you're arguing that all these people are wasting their time. That they will never overcome their difficulties and they should either give up an committ a crime, cause trouble, go insane or just kill themselves. That is a flawed assumption. We all have the power to change our own lifes, and to alter the course of our lives. That's what seperates humans from animals.

      In a sense, that's irrelevant to society, however. Philosophically it's all well and good, and well worth debating into the long, dark hours of the night.

      Society as a whole is (or should be) unconcerned. If a human CHOOSES to act like a wild animal - in fact, worse than one if you concede free will - he should be treated as one: caged, cared for to a minimal standard of care, and ultimately if not able to behave within norms that society sets - euthanized.

      For example, I know that Alfonso Rodruiguez was someobody's little boy, once. But now (after his rape and murder of Dru Sjodin) he is simply a human-shaped dangerous nuisance that it is in the public interest to remove.

      As far as the OP's lad, he's not stupid. He knows that society will give him chance after chance after chance, in the vain hope that he will develop something analogous to a conscience. Why should we bother? Because of "Human compassion"? Pull the other one - I have more pre-emptive compassion for his next victim than I ever would for him.

      --
      -Styopa
    7. Re:Scarily familiar... by Cyberax · · Score: 3, Informative

      There's a classic case of Gage Phineas ( http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=231 ), for example. And a lot of cases in WWI and WWII with personality-changing head injuries.

    8. Re:Scarily familiar... by shambalagoon · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I agree that he has free will and is responsible for his actions, and he should be held 100% accountable for what he's done. But I would argue that his free will is limited by his mental state due to physiological factors.

      People can be born with certain genetic deficiencies in neurotransmitters or enzymes that can lead to a pathological mental state. Think of it as a disease like any other mental disorder, akin to Tourette's syndrome, schizophrenia, autism, etc. Someone with Tourette's doesnt choose to exclaim obscenities. And you cant fix the condition with any amount of positive or negative reinforcement. In the same way someone born like this boy has all the built-in selfishness that all humans have but are unable to feel the sort of empathy or social connection to others that leads to altruistic and positive social behavior.

      Drugs like MDMA (ecstacy) show that there is a definite neurochemical element in empathy, and there are all kinds of genetic mutations that cause endogenous chemical deficiencies. It should not seem a leap that there could be a mutation that causes such a deficiency. And its resistance to any social attempts to change it appear to be further evidence in that direction.

      Back to the idea of constrained free will. We make decisions based on all the factors and motives available to us. If we are completely unable to feel empathy (a sort of blindness, in a way), that will never factor into our decisions. It wont be a matter of choice to behave in a psychopathic way or not except when huge external factors are pressing in. But the second those pressures are removed, the behavior will become psychopathic again.

    9. Re:Scarily familiar... by Xaroth · · Score: 3, Funny

      There's an easy acronym for that one, too; just remember "GGNPCLSCPPPELIIFMJRC". Simple!

      --
      That green slime had it coming.
    10. Re:Scarily familiar... by inviolet · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Ultimately, humans have free will and choose their own actions. Saying someone is "born bad" is equivilant to saying that they have been possessed by Satan. It's not a valid argument.

      I challenge you to define 'choose'.

      If it means "the behaviors selected by the person's neurons", then 'choose' is meaningless: it simply means that they do whatever their brain must (as a physical object) lawfully do in the situation. In this case, it is easy to image a corrupt brain, in the sense that the neural potentials favor sadistic outcomes.

      If, however, it means "causelessly or spiritually imposing a decision upon physical matter", then you have an even bigger problem: how does anyone choose to do bad things? Is it then their spirit (or whatever) that is corrupt?

      So, stating that we "choose our own actions" is useless. Actually it's worse than useless because not only does the statement fail to convey any data, but it makes it harder for a discussion to focus on the exact locus of sadistic behaviors. These days, the word 'choose' has become the ultimate hand-wave. As your statement shows, it has come to mean "Human decisions are unconnected to reality, so abandon this line of inquiry altogether."

      I rather think that behavior is absolutely connected to my brain's content and state. And that is why me-the-person can be considered reliably good (or evil) -- because my behavior has a lawful cause.

      --
      FATMOUSE + YOU = FATMOUSE
    11. Re:Scarily familiar... by Kris_J · · Score: 2, Funny

      Free will is an illusion, lunchtime doublely so.

      No, wait...

    12. Re:Scarily familiar... by xero314 · · Score: 4, Informative

      I don't think there is any question that people can be born bad. It's called anti-social personality disorder, and in its more extreme forms, sociopathic or psychopathic*.
      *(note: neither the DSM-IV or the ICD 10 list either sociopath or psychopath as accepted disorders, and are usually accepted to be synonymous with anti-social personality disorder)
      Before you can answer the question you have to define "bad." Most psychologist and psychiatrist would not define "bad", but if they had to it would include a need for conscious understanding of consequence. The disorders you mentioned, along with all other personality disorders, cause a block in the psyche that causes the personality disordered to not be able to comprehend the effects of their actions.

      Assuming you define "bad" differently and base it solely on action and effect of action regardless of intent, then you still have to accept that this is still a mater of perspective, as can be seen clearly in both the debate over capital punishment as well as Darwin's natural selection. This can be seen clearly in the high number of Sociopathic and Narcissistic CEOs in the world as it shows that sociopathic, narcissistic and to a lesser extent anti-social behavior is favored by natural selection. Even the list you mentioned contained very few things that people generalize perceive as unforgivably "bad".

      You also seem to imply that their is scientific consensus that personality disorders are genetically hereditary, though this is neither accepted nor supported by and peer reviewed and accepted studies. THE DSM-IV states "The cause of [anti-social personality disorder] is unknown, but biological or genetic factors may play a role." This is believed because "The incidence of antisocial personality is higher in people who have an antisocial biological parents." The studies so far have had difficulty separating environmental effects of having afflicted parents from the biological ones. Even when the child is separated from the afflicted parent the environmental effect of parental abandonment is still their which is known to be a major factor in the formation of Personality Disorders. So far there has been no prove physical cause for Personality disorders, which is part of what actually qualifies a disorder as being a personality disorder.Treatment of most personality disorders has been shown to allow a person to live a productive and non-distructive life, though admittedly treatment is almost always required for the rest of the afflicted persons life

      Beside all of that you do realize that the founding fathers of the United States, and I would assume many other countries, would qualify as anti-social, among other possible disorders, by the law makers and psychoanalyst (if there were any) of the country it had separated from.

      From the DSM - IV only three of the following need to be met to qualify as anti-social.
      • Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest.
      • Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure impulsivity or failure to plan ahead.
      • Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults reckless disregard for safety of self or others.
      • Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations.
      • Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another
    13. Re:Scarily familiar... by captainktainer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      He got himself kicked out of every group he was in... because he did things like beating up disabled children, assault and battery, and general defiance. He damaged other people, constantly. That is not something that can be tolerated. If my child was in an art or drama group and found some asshole kid beating up his classmates, beating up him, disrupting activities, and the like, I'm not going to let my child be in that situation - either he goes or my child does. That is what every rational parent should do.

      If you RTFA, you would know that the real trouble was the system's refusal to lock him away from other children and even his own parents because they were socialized to believe that it's never the kid's fault, and that parents are always abusers. They were too lenient, not too restrictive.

      Yeah, a kid died. I wonder how much of that has to do with permissive government policies instituted by people with philosophies much like your own.

    14. Re:Scarily familiar... by den479 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'm not trying to absolve this child from guilt, what he did was evil and he should be punished. I just want to point out something that I've learned from raising my own son.

      Before my son started kindergarden he spent 2 years in preschool/daycare without a problem.

      Within a few months of starting kindergarden we started receiving calls from his teacher and the principle because he was pushing/hitting/kicking his classmates. The school tried to be helpful, suggesting councilling and trying programs to control his behaviour.

      What had us confused was that we never had a problem with him at home, all summer he played with other kids in the neigborhood without any problem, but as soon as school started so did the phone calls from the faculty.

      This went on through kindergarden and first grade with us getting a call every month or six weeks. After several meetings with the principle and guidance councilor suggesting that we seek medical treatment (ie: get him on ridallin) we decided to try a different approach first. We banned cafeteria food.

      During the summer when we were feeding him we didn't really worry about preservatives, sugar, etc. but for the most part we fed him healthy foods... low sugar, whole grain, cooked from scratch foods. But when school started it was easier to just let him eat breakfast at school with the rest of the kids, (poptarts, donuts) and lunch (chicken nuggets, hot dogs).

      Eight months ago we finally figured it out, now he eats breakfast at home and lunches that we pack for him and we haven't had a complaint from the school since then. The school still considers him a problem child but thats only because they get extra money from the state for him. They don't really want him to be better because that would take away some of their funding.

      Perhaps the kid in this article wouldn't have been such an ass if he'd have been eating foods that weren't poisoned with artificial colors, flavors and preservatives while he was playing his "violent video games".

    15. Re:Scarily familiar... by CmdrGravy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There was an interesting experiment on TV a few weeks ago where they took a group of 5 year olds to 2 parties on 2 different days. They told the parents that at one of the parties they would be feeding the children all the sugary junk food they could get there hands on and at the other party they would feed them healthily on vegetables, nuts and healthy stuff. The other thing was that at the healthy food party there were lots of active, boisterous party games whereas the junk food one was more subdued.

      All the parents had to do was guess which party their child had eaten what at. All of them got it wrong because in fact the type of interactions with the other children were much much more of a factor than the food they ate.

      They really did eat a ton of sugar at the unhealthy party too, literally a heaped dinner plates worth each.

    16. Re:Scarily familiar... by pnakotus · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Free will of some sort exists. We clearly have the ability to make choices. On the other hand, it's quite true that we seek happiness, and don't make choices that don't give us some sort of satisfaction. We need incentives, reasons. Doing something for no reason isn't free will, it's insanity.

      Quite possibly there was something wrong with the boy's brain. I don't discount that at all. But I do think it's a cop-out, an easy way to dismiss people as being 'unfixable', when perhaps what we should be questioning is the need to 'fix' them.

      Reading the letter, there's something quite noble about this young man's passive resistance to all attempts to control his behaviour through punishment. I'm quite serious, although it doesn't make his violent behaviour any less loathesome. Let's look at the letter again:

      "We tried absolutely everything we could think of to get him to behave like a normal human being... we tried groundings, negative reinforcement / punishment, positive reinforcement, counseling, and anything and everything the counselors suggested. We tried to get him interested and involved in extracurricular activities, like hockey, drama, music, art, anything, but he got himself kicked out of every group he was in with his "make me" attitude. When we would ground him, we took away everything. No TV, no computer, no phone, no leaving the house, no snacks or junk food.... Everything. [...] He would just sit there and take it... the groundings had absolutely no affect on him at all. [...] Most kids get grounded or punished a couple of times, and then they want to avoid having to go through it again... not this kid, nothing seemed to phase him."

      The first thing I notice here is that she's not thinking in terms of 'stop him beating up other kids'. She's thinking in terms of making him into 'a normal human being'. She's already admitted that she hates him; for her, the person was the problem, not the violent behaviour.

      I also note that they weren't simply trying to get him to stop doing wrong. Think about how you'd feel if you were being punished for beating up a disabled kid. Quite reasonable, yes?

      Now imagine you're being punished for not wanting to play hockey.

      The problem is it's a complete package. He either fights his guardians or works with them. Just as they reject him by trying to turn him into something else, rejecting both the violent behaviour (evil) and the lack of interest in clubs and activities (who cares?), he had to either accept their training or revolt against it. Sure, if he had a strong moral sense of his own (which he obviously didn't - that's what they were supposed to be instilling in him) he could have chosen to stop abusing other people and still resisted their attempts to mold him into the mirror image of his brother. But he would not have been rewarded for it - instead of being punished for beating up disabled kids, he would have been punished for talking back and for 'attitude'. He would have seen no reason to learn to be a moral person - it would not have improved his situation at the time. We know better, but most of us have the advantage of normal, healthy upbringings and a well-developed moral sense.

      All of this is conjecture based on the statement of one person who claims to have been there. Yet from her own statement I feel inclined to suspect that the way this boy was treated was abusive, and his rebellion against the abuse also became a rebellion against the rules of simple human decency, because the two were presented to him as being one and the same. Rejecting them both made him into a bully and a murderer.

  2. Gabe's Original Take, Her Response by Brigade · · Score: 5, Informative
    Link to Gabe's original post and her response: (In case Penny-arcade is blocked at work)

    Gabe,

    Your news post about the kids and the homeless man yesterday made me sick to my stomach, before I even read the CNN article. I knew what it was going to be about before even reading the article. It was not the article itself, or even your post that made me sick, it was the fact that I know this boy. Or, rather that I could be considered one of the "parents" of this boy.

    The boy's father and I have been together for almost seven years, and I had what I guess could be called a "stepmother" relationship with the kid. To say that living with this kid was hell would be a complete understatement.

    I don't think I have ever actively hated anyone in my entire life, but this kid just makes my blood boil.

    As I write this, my teeth are clenched, my hands are shaking, and my whole body is seething with the hatred I feel for this kid and what he has done. Seeing the article brings back all the horrible memories from when he lived with us.

    He was constantly in trouble in school, with the cops, with us, with his mother, and with anyone else who was an authority figure. Not a week went by that the school or the cops wouldn't call us for something. His attitude was basically "fuck you, I don't have to listen to you" said with a shrug.

    We tried absolutely everything we could think of to get him to behave like a normal human being... we tried groundings, negative reinforcement / punishment, positive reinforcement, counseling, and anything and everything the counselors suggested. We tried to get him interested and involved in extracurricular activities, like hockey, drama, music, art, anything, but he got himself kicked out of every group he was in with his "make me" attitude. When we would ground him, we took away everything. No TV, no computer, no phone, no leaving the house, no snacks or junk food.... Everything. When he was grounded, he was only allowed to sit in his room and read or draw. He was actually a pretty good artist, and we tried to encourage him to spend his time working with his talent. He would just sit there and take it... the groundings had absolutely no affect on him at all. Most of the time, he didn't even remember why he was being grounded. At the end of it, we would ask him if it was worth it to have everything taken away in exchange for what he did... he usually just shrugged. He could be grounded for weeks, or a month at a time, and then the very next day would do something to get back in trouble again. Most kids get grounded or punished a couple of times, and then they want to avoid having to go through it again... not this kid, nothing seemed to phase him.

    And we're not talking the usual teenager stuff, like coming home late, or refusing to do the dishes. We're talking stealing cars, setting fires, drinking, getting picked up for drugs, beating up handicapped kids at school (yes, really) stealing things out of our house... all with this "I'll do whatever the fuck I want" attitude.

    We had absolutely no idea what else we could do. We already had him in counseling, and we did everything the counselors suggested. We tried rewarding his good behavior (what little there was) to try to get him to see that when he behaves like a normal human being, things are good and people enjoy being around him. Nothing phased him at all.

    Then, things took an even worse turn when he decided that whenever he didn't get his way, or we did something he didn't like, he told his counselors and teachers that we were abusing him. (Never happened.) And for some inexplicable reason, everybody believed him. I understand that child abuse is a very serious situation, and that they have to take every possible case seriously, but this was clearly a case of him manipulating people to get what he wanted. We had people from the school, cops, and social services over at our ho

    1. Re:Gabe's Original Take, Her Response by Jack+Sombra · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "I am saying, that with a child like that, the things this woman describes (trying to fix him) is exactly what would drive him farther and farther over the edge of wrecklessness in a desire to say, "I do what I want.""
      Very true, it would drive him further into that mentality,kinda went that way with my parents when growing up, but luckyly i "grew out of it" before anything really bad happened

      BUT what alternative for the parents is there that would work? Answer is simple, none.

      Let him do what he wants? Easyley end up with same result, hell it does many times, aka those cases where the parents are fully to blame

      Put him into care? Known quite a few kids who have gone though care systems in different countries and can tell you kids like this NEVER come of of the system well

      Beat the shit out him till he stopped? That generally just turns screwed up kids into very screwed up adults

      By the sounds of things parents did their very best, really what more could be asked of them?

      Decent parenting, home life, counseling can all be pointless at times because sometimes no matter what a parents does the kid can and will turn out "bad"

  3. Reading this story by falcon5768 · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Just reinforces my belief that people take a childs side way too often than they should, especially when the kid involved is a stain on humanity.

    A situation like this happened with a co-workers step-child which ended up in his divorce from his wife. She couldnt see the kid for what he was and it ended up tearing them apart.

    That kids now preparing to go to trial for killing his friend when in a drug haze he ran his car off the road and into a tree.

    --

    "Slashdot, where telling the truth is overrated but lying is insightful."

    1. Re:Reading this story by gstoddart · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Just reinforces my belief that people take a childs side way too often than they should, especially when the kid involved is a stain on humanity.

      Sadly, the children know this and manipulate it. Have been doing so for a very long time -- they know you have no actual authority over them if they choose not to listen to you. You can't actually compel them in any way to listen.

      There were enough cases of child abuse in the past that all of the agencies are now required by law to investigate all claims of abuse. Denial by the accused abusers is basically ignored as all guilty people would deny it. They basically have to presume you're guilty in order to try to protect the child's welfare (it's well meaning, but not often reliable). And, in the end, it's difficult to disprove such claims.

      (I know someone going through court now because a neighbor witnessed him hoist his child into the car, and then claimed she saw/though she saw him smacking the child around. When his wife decided to leave him for his best friend, she started coaching the 4 year old into claiming daddy was touching her in bad places -- in court, the child has admitted that mommy told her to say that. On the heels of the first erroneous claim, the second claim of now sexual abuse is very hard to dispell: basically it's compounded on him. Such things get very ugly quick.)

      I find it scary that a child who is repeatedly in trouble could fool the teachers into thinking "I didn't do it, and by the way, my parents abused me". Especially when this child was over 6 feet and over 200lbs -- a very big 14 year old indeed.

      I realize you can't suddenly start treating all accusations lightly, for fear of ignoring the problem. But, there has to be a better way of looking into these things. Unfortunately, an unfounded claim of abuse can ruin your life just as quickly and easily as a verifiable, documented case of abuse -- people will go after you with equal zeal and tar you with the same brush.

      The fact that repeatedly, police and school officials were told that this kid was way out of control is scary indeed. The fact that an apparent "thrill kill" had to take place before anyone would believe them is appalling. Hopefully at least something good comes out of this in the long run.

      Cheers
      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
  4. proof? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm wondering, has PA actually verified that this person is related to the kid, or are they just another AC?

  5. Love by Shadow+Wrought · · Score: 2, Interesting
    The amazing thing is that she has been with the kid's father for 7 years! That's a long time to be putting up with that kind of grief, counting down the days until they turn 18. At least the other son is doing well.

    I realize that most of the dot, myself included, rarely reads articles before commenting on them. This one is very much worth the read, regardless of whether you intend to comment or not.

    --
    If brevity is the soul of wit, then how does one explain Twitter?
  6. Call me a cynic by Iamthefallen · · Score: 4, Insightful

    But I'm curious how PA has verified that this person is who she claims to be.

    --
    Wax-Museum Fire Results In Hundreds Of New Danny DeVito Statues
    1. Re:Call me a cynic by thryllkill · · Score: 4, Funny

      Okay. You're a cynic.

      --

      Note to self: No more arguing with the faithful.

    2. Re:Call me a cynic by Moryath · · Score: 4, Informative

      The kid wasn't the step-parent's problem. The step-parent should have just divorced their mate rather than be around that kid. Was the kid's parent rich or very good in bed that you could just put up with or ignore the kid until this happened? Nah, can't have been a rich parent or the kid would have been in a distant boarding school the first time the kid started getting out of hand.

      If you noticed, there's a second kid in the house - a kid who's turning out just fine.

      And I've no doubt Gabe doublechecked the story and verified the connection before publishing.

  7. Hmm by MBCook · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I usually like to blame the parents, as it is often their fault. You read these stories where the parents had no idea what was going on (Colombine: pipe bomb building in the garage???). Or where the parent just defends them ("Little Johnny never would have done that. The other kids made him do it.").

    I gotta say reading that was kind of scary. If I had to take a guess I'd say he is a sociopath (literally), but that's just a guess. He is obviously very intelligent (calling people abusers). The fact they kept investigating it doesn't surprise me (what if it was true one of those times) but he knew how to get power. Kids can also act out like that if they are being abused, so that would lend "credibility".

    I'm sure the divorces and remarriages in his life didn't help, but if it really is sociopathic, that probably wouldn't matter. I can offer suggestions of things that might have helped him (if he was help-able). Military boot camp, having him sent to jail those times the police came. Making him a ward of the state. Trying to give him possession of his own life (can't remember the term, basically having him declared an independent adult).

    She said she tried "everything" so I don't know which of those were done. I'm amazed that she put up with it for so long.

    This kid is REALLY the exception to the rule. He would have been exactly the same if this happened in 1960.

    Too bad this kid will probably be the example of what video games do to kids that the media trots out constantly.

    People like him (from her description, assuming it's true), are one of the things that make me believe in true evil.

    --
    Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
    1. Re:Hmm by MaineCoon · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I almost went down a similiar path to this kid. I skipped out on school, ignored the rules. Punishments didn't phase me. I spent time in jail and in juvenile "shelter" homes, from my truancy. When I was a young child, at times my mother was actually afraid of me - I was fearless of punishment even then. Spank me, (it was legal then), and I'd just go do whatever I did again.

      It took my father's sudden death (heart failure) when I was 15 to snap me out of it. I fell into a deep depression (I already suffered from chronic depression) and ended up spending half a year at a residential treatment facility for emotionally unstable teenagers.

      I look back, and both my mother and I can agree that, my father's death inadvertantly saved my life. I was probably only a year or so off from making a big mistake. My father was already terminally ill at the time from leukemia... probably only had a year and a half left, based on the estimate from the autopsy. His death cost him and us another year or two together, but may have given me many more years to live life.

      That was about 12 years ago. My father would be proud of the person I am today. I don't think that would be the case if he had survived.

      I met a lot of kids who were like me, in the places I went. There are more exceptions to the rule than people think.

      --
      Hunt your preferred prey at Aliens vs Predator MUD. Join the war at avpmud.com port 4000
  8. I hate to say it but Gabe was right the first time by LWATCDR · · Score: 3, Interesting

    After reading the "stepmother's" reply I have to say yea it probably was the parent's fault. This kid seems to have been tossed back and forth between the "father" and the mother. The stepmother's language in her reply was what I would expect for a high school kid and not a parent of a child. In all the discussion of what they did and didn't do, I at no time heard the word love. I heard hate a lot but not love. Yea this kid might have had issues from the start but I have to say that didn't sound like he had much of a chance with the parents he had.
    Yes he was unmanageable at 15 but what about at two? How about at five? How much love and time did he get at seven?

    It is possible that even with the best parents in the world he might have still become a killer but it seems far from the perfect family life to me.
    Sounds like a few more wasted lives. The poor guy that was killed and the kids that did the killing.

    --
    See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
  9. There is a REASON for that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Just reinforces my belief that people take a childs side way too often than they should

    Hey, the authorities do that for a very good reason: an adult can be far more articulate and persuasive than a child accuser. Believe me, the police and social workers erring on the side of caution is a GOOD thing.

    Don't think I'm making this up, either. I'm speaking as someone who was abused as a child and was NOT believed when he cried for help. It would have been great if people "took the child's view" thirty years ago -- it would have saved me decades of emotional pain.

  10. Re:Lack of personal responsibility. by HBI · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The parent post is correct, but neglects the salient point that when I was a kid (i'm 37), a valid response to the conditions noted would be to send the kid to a military school where they'd do the beating for you.

    Yeah, those got tamed by the leftist social theorists too.

    So basically we have to wait for the pathetic scum to kill innocents before we do anything about it. Great improvement. Kudos to the 60's crowd for doing us a real service, yet again.

    --
    HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
  11. When they're as far gone as this kid... by AmazingRuss · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...beating doesn't work either. He's a full blown psychopath, and about all you can do is drug him into a stupor or lock him up. We don't know how to fix them. Would probably be kinder (for him AND the other prisoners) to euthanize him. Much better than graduating him from prison in 15 years...he's going to be a real, grown up monster then, with all that lovely prison lore and culture burned into him. You can blame the liberals AND the conservatives for his continued existence. I think he falls under both of their "sacredness of life" category.

    Just because it has a humanoid form does not make it human.

  12. Re:I hate to say it but Gabe was right the first t by RobertB-DC · · Score: 5, Insightful

    After reading the "stepmother's" reply I have to say yea it probably was the parent's fault. This kid seems to have been tossed back and forth between the "father" and the mother. The stepmother's language in her reply was what I would expect for a high school kid and not a parent of a child. In all the discussion of what they did and didn't do, I at no time heard the word love. I heard hate a lot but not love. Yea this kid might have had issues from the start but I have to say that didn't sound like he had much of a chance with the parents he had.
    Yes he was unmanageable at 15 but what about at two? How about at five? How much love and time did he get at seven?

    Read a bit more closely, and you'll catch this bit:

    I am sorry this got so long. I have been reading PA since the very beginning, and I feel that both of you are very much like me. I think we are the same age (29) and I have been a lifelong gamer like the two of you.

    If she's 29, then she would have been around 14 when the kid was born -- and remember, she describes herself as a kind-of stepmother. It sounds like she didn't get involved until he was already a teenager -- too late for her to have much impact, especially if she was only in her mid-20's herself.

    So we can't draw any conclusions about her bad parenting when he was a baby. Also, note that he was living with his dad until he decided to leave -- and move in with his natural mom, who had even less control over the situation. If we must conclude that nurture had a larger role than nature, then we have to look at her role, long before the letter's author was involved.

    --
    Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
  13. Mental issues? No punishment by nuggz · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Well I read the letter and it seems a bit interesting for a late teen.

    Most of the time, he didn't even remember why he was being grounded

    We're talking stealing cars, setting fires, drinking, getting picked up for drugs, beating up handicapped kids at school (yes, really)

    I see two important things, #1 he has trouble comprehending his actions in some way. #2 This person claims he has a long record of criminal offenses, but hasn't had any real punishment.

    He likely just thought he could get away with it, like he had with everything else for YEARS. At some point the government should help out a bit, maybe put him in jail. Teaching him he can get away with this type of behaviour is a fatal mistake.

  14. How do you get that? by EasyT · · Score: 5, Insightful
    After reading the "stepmother's" reply I have to say yea it probably was the parent's fault. This kid seems to have been tossed back and forth between the "father" and the mother. The stepmother's language in her reply was what I would expect for a high school kid and not a parent of a child. In all the discussion of what they did and didn't do, I at no time heard the word love. I heard hate a lot but not love. Yea this kid might have had issues from the start but I have to say that didn't sound like he had much of a chance with the parents he had. Yes he was unmanageable at 15 but what about at two? How about at five? How much love and time did he get at seven?

    I really don't understand how you can blame the parents based on the information provided. Sure, the parents split up, but there are plenty of parents who divorce or separate and still have well-adjusted children. Beyond that, we simply have no idea what this kid's childhood was like. We also have no idea how long the stepmother has been on the scene, so I don't see how you can expect her to comment on how much love the child received at any specific age, much less support any conclusions based on the presence or absence of the word "love" in a letter.

    It seems like a great modern fad (and fallacy) to blame parents for every lousy thing a kid does, as if people have become desperate to take nature out of the classic "nature vs. nurture" argument. But none of us are shaped purely by our environment, as the mention of the kid's younger brother being reasonably well-adjusted supports. We all have judgement and free will, so unless some actual evidence surfaces to support the notion that the parents somehow meaningfully contributed to these horrible acts, let's place blame back on the kid who committed them, shall we?

  15. "Born Bad"... by Moryath · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Some people are not psychologically designed to respond to stimulus the same way; some are visual learners, some are auditory, some learn better from example and demonstration, some more from reading, some from fidgeting around with things till they understand how it operates.

    Some are born completely without the ability to discern cause and effect, and some are born with a complete psychological immunity to corrective tactics.

    Some are pathological liars.

    Yes, you can be "born bad." I've seen it many times. There are schoolteachers who think "no kid is really a bully" and try to "understand" everyone: these schoolteachers are retarded fucktards who let bullying happen.

    The same goes for the retarded fucktards who took the kid's word over the parents who were screaming for protection and help in trying to discipline him.

    Word to the cops: if the PARENTS are begging you to put him in jail and prosecute, WHAT THE FUCK do you think you're doing handing him back off?

    Those cops should be fired for laziness and incompetence.

    1. Re:"Born Bad"... by drinkypoo · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Yes, you can be "born bad." I've seen it many times. There are schoolteachers who think "no kid is really a bully" and try to "understand" everyone: these schoolteachers are retarded fucktards who let bullying happen.

      This is not an example of what I am talking about. That particular issue can happen from either nature or nurture. Letting the kids get away with their shit is rewarding that behavior because it places them above other children for whom there is zero tolerance. Like me, for example. I was a mama's boy up until I was about 21, no joke. Total pussy pushover. I used to get attacked at school literally every day. If they weren't hitting me they were destroying my bicycle, that kind of shit. So one day a kid attacks me without any backup and keeps it up until I get pissed off - all 5'11" of me or so at that time. I've been pretty huge since about the end of sixth grade, that was the year I started getting the nonstop growing pains. So I beat the living crap out of him and got expelled.

      The same goes for the retarded fucktards who took the kid's word over the parents who were screaming for protection and help in trying to discipline him. Word to the cops: if the PARENTS are begging you to put him in jail and prosecute, WHAT THE FUCK do you think you're doing handing him back off? Those cops should be fired for laziness and incompetence.

      Yeah, I have to agree completely with that.

      The real problem there is that the system isn't interested in helping people anyway, or rehabilitating anyone. If they were, the prison system wouldn't be allowed to remain a mass of murder and rape that only begets additional violence and not only provides opportunities for people to learn to commit more serious crimes, but also provides them with incentive to do so because we continue to punish people after they have ostensibly served their debt to society. They cannot get many types of jobs, they cannot vote, et cetera. The only reason to disenfranchise ANYONE is so that you don't have to fix the problems that affect them. Disenfranchising felons means you don't have to fix the problems that create felons, because those people can't vote you out anyway.

      No, if you stop that kid from being a bully now, you can't make money on him by placing him in prison.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:"Born Bad"... by Moryath · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The teachers who let the kids screw with your stuff? They're to blame. They're the retarded fucktards I was talking about.

      I went through a system where if there was anything going on, each kid got punished equally. Why? Because the school organizers were retarded fucktards who couldn't be bothered to get to the bottom of what was going on, who started what, and thought "no kid is a bully."

      What was the end result? Half the kids in 'detention' were otherwise honor students who were there because the bullies who didn't give two shits about their education would start a fight with those kids just for fun. Detention didn't mean shit to the bullies, but they knew it would fuck over the honor students, so they did it anyways.

      I'm sure the school administrators and teachers at the kid's school, or at yours, were no different.

    3. Re:"Born Bad"... by Bryansix · · Score: 3, Funny

      I'm really tired and I read the last line wrong. I read it as "Those cops should be tied up and fired at with Tazers". I guess that would work too.

    4. Re:"Born Bad"... by LKM · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There are schoolteachers who think "no kid is really a bully" and try to "understand" everyone: these schoolteachers are retarded fucktards who let bullying happen.

      The fact that people are born with certain personal traits does not imply that there isn't also a learning factor involved.

  16. Re:Hmm You're 23 what do you know about the '60s? by BobBoring · · Score: 4, Interesting

    He would have been exactly the same if this happened in 1960.

    In 1960 life was very different. His dad wouldn't be "grounding him" he'd have taken him to the wood shed and corrected his attitude. You only have to be course corrected a few times at an early age. The mother's mention of negative reinforcement probably did not include throwing the kid out the door into the street and telling him to only come home once he appecated what he had going for him in the form of a warm bed and three square meals a day.

    School teachers in 1960 could beat you with a shaved baseball bat until you're buttocks were bruised so you couldn't sit down. His teacher's or their husbands would likely have been a WWII or Korean War veteran. Why mention that? Because if the little goblin had raised a hand to a teacher, he'd have drawn back a stump. His school Principal would have certainly been a) male and b) unsympathetic to his claim of 'abuse'. His Principal would very likely have a shaved baseball bat and two foot prints painted on the floor in front of his desk.

    If none of that registered on him, in 1960, he'd of been shipped off to someplace like "West Texas Boy's Ranch" or "The San Antonio Boy's Town" or "Father Flanagan's Boys Town" or any of the other "homes for boys". He'd have had to work 30-35 hours a week growing the food he ate, tending the stock and still ride the bus 1-2 hours each way to attend school. He'd live in a "bay barracks" style dorm with 30 other kids. He would do laundry, muck out barns, peel potatoes and stack hay. Sunday he'd go to church and get a whole 5-6 hours to reflect the error of his way.

    If he ran away and tried to 'go home' the Sheriff would run him down with dogs and drag him back to the county farm for recalcitrant youth or what ever the place was called. Then the keepers would move his bunk to the barn take his mattress and blankets way until he'd earned his spot in the dorm back.

    Believe it or not the boy would be different. If this was 1960 he'd be different or he'd be dead.

  17. Re:Stepmother by C0rinthian · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Especially living with someone like this who would sell her "child" out so quick. You can imagine what living with that sort of "parent" would have been like.

    Sounds like she was involved here for several years, I guess you can consider that 'quick' but most reasonable people wouldn't.

    Speaking from experience, my sister is like this kid. This girl put my parents through 18 years of pure hell, was a contributing factor in their divorce and my mothers alcoholism. She currently is unable to hold any job, but has two illegitimate children. The kids do not even have proper beds to sleep on, but child services will not remove them from her custody. My mother offered to adopt them, and she refused to give up custody. This girl leeches off my father at age 22. She spends her money on cigarettes instead of food/clothing for the kids, then calls us for handouts. If you asked me what I thought of her, my response would be very similar to the step-mother who sent this letter. There is no love there, there is no respect or compassion. My life will only be better if I never interacted with that waste of a human being ever again.

    But I guess by your standards, I just sold her out, and am a terrible person.
  18. I'm a cynic too by oni · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What makes me suspicious is when she claims that social workers and counselors that previously took the kid's side are now calling to apologize and say they wish they had believed the parents.

    Um, bullshit. Yeah, I'm so sure that some government worker picked up the phone to say, "oh hi, this is Frank. Remember me? I'm the guy who was investigating you for abuse? How are you guys doing? Cool. Cool. Listen, I just wanted to apologize for all that, 'almost sending you to jail' thing ok? Well, take it easy. Please don't sue me. Bye."

    She's lying about that part *at the very least*

  19. Re:reason why so many people do not want kids by huckamania · · Score: 2, Funny

    Good luck with that home. Unfortunately, some one else's sweet little girl, all grown up, will be taking care of you. If she's ready to smack grandma around, she'll probably do worse to you.

  20. Re:Long story short: by Broken+scope · · Score: 2, Funny

    Not everyone can be reasoned with. That is why you have swat teams and a military.

    --
    You mad
  21. Re:Stepmother by Broken+scope · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Do you know what the letter was in response too? She has the right to tell her side of the story when someone accuses her of failing or screwing up. She did not "sell out" this child. This child sold himself out when he went and MURDERED a man then played with his corpse. This kid has a HISTORY of ABUSING HANDIFUCKINGCAPED children. You know what else. He learned that he could get away with it to, as long as he said the right things.

    She did not betray him. She did not sell him out. There was nothing to sell out in the first place. Hell what do you want her to do. Is she supposed to defend him? How do you defend a child like this? He was from a broken home, fine. He murdered someone. You either jail him, jail him for life in solitary, execute him, or give him a free pass because he couldn't fucking cope with the same shit alot of other kids do. What do you do when he gets out of jail and kills again? Another free pass? Hell the woman tried to do what she could.

    --
    You mad
  22. Re: Ah Maddox... by trdrstv · · Score: 2, Funny
    Couldn't agree more... My Mom used to beat me with a hot-wheel track and because of that I love her even more...

    For that, I love her even more too. ;->

  23. Re:Hmm You're 23 what do you know about the '60s? by MBCook · · Score: 2, Informative

    For reference, I only mentioned the 60s because video games didn't exist. It had nothing to do with parenting styles and some such. I simply chose that decade for the lack of video-games, and didn't think about it any further.

    --
    Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
  24. Re:Hmm You're 23 what do you know about the '60s? by Goaway · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Believe it or not the boy would be different.

    After being abused and mistreated for years by people he hated and looked down on, with his strong disregard for other humans?

    Yeah, he'd probably have killed a handful of them.

  25. Re:Prison statistics... by cowscows · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Wait...are you saying that there are federal statistics that show that over 1/4 of the people in prison in this country are illegal aliens who came to the US for the sole purpose of committing violent crimes?

    I find that incredibly hard to believe, and would love to see some sort of citation for where you got that info.

    --

    One time I threw a brick at a duck.

  26. Well, its handy that you've located the source... by AmazingRuss · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...of all evil in the universe. I knew the liberals hated America, and wanted Osama Bin Ladin to be president, but I hadn't realized that they also wanted bums to be beaten to death. The bastards!

    Had the conservative policies been in place, maybe he would have been locked up sooner, but I can guarentee he would have been fucking up kids in Juvie...creating more little monsters out of kids that already had problems. Sooner or later they would have let him out, too. Maybe the life of that bum would have been saved...but only if you lock the kid up forever before he kills anybody. You have to weigh the risk of him doing serious damage against the probablility he's just freaking out on hormones and will straighten out. A potential wasted teenager vs. a potential wasted old bum.

    Locking people up with other messed up people doesen't tend to make any of them less messed up...and for the most part you have to let them out someday. Prison does not rehabilitate anybody, or serve as much of a deterrent to crime....all you have to look at is the recividism rates to know that. What comes out is worse than what went in. It's cruel and pointless, and its only done because we as a society can't quite bring ourselves to put down dangerous animals of our own species.

    Ideally, we could spend the cash to get our prisons under control, and make a real effort to rehabilitate. If rehabilitation fails, the person is euthanized. Unfortunately, our government is way too incompentant and corrupt to do this in a sane or just manner...so we have...what we have...courtesy of the Prison Guards Union.

  27. He had that too. by Moryath · · Score: 2, Insightful

    His mother couldn't do jack shit.

    He figured out a way around everything.

    And that's a terrible waste, but an inevitable consequence of spending a child's entire adolescence teaching them that they are accountable to someone other than themself, when ultimately, goodness comes from within and true goodness only comes out when you hold yourself accountable above all other people (i.e. Do you do right because you want to do what is right or because you are compelled to by real or implied force?)

    The kid didn't care about "right." He did what he felt like doing, and that was that. He was a fucked up sociopath, completely self-centered, manipulative, and abusive. He was a kid born bad and that was that, and doing any less wouldn't have given him any reason to change that or be nicer to anyone else. He wasn't "acting out" to prove that they had no control over him, he already knew that they had no control over him, he could game the system any way he pleased, and that was that.

    Maybe if he'd been chucked into juvie, it could have been different. I doubt it, but it could have.

    Letting him run amok doing whatever? If you think that would do any good, you just go back to hitting the bong and being a good little moron.

  28. Re:Proof Positive, Government (Congressional) Docs by rhombic · · Score: 3, Informative

    Jeezus. That is some schweet statistical cherry picking. Not surprising at all that 25% of the FEDERAL prison pop is illegal immigrants, very few crimes that result in incarceration are federal. The vast, vast, vast majority of crimes are violations of state & local laws, and dealt with at the state level. Last week's BOP report says there are 195,248 Federal prisoners. So according to your statistics, that's ~48,000 illegal immigrants in the federal Pen. Now, the last number I can find for both state & federal is for midyear 2005, 1,259,905 people in state prisons and 179,220 in Club Fed. (Reference here). I dunno how many people in state prisons are illegal, probably lots in California and quite a few less in Idaho. But you can't say 25% of the people in prison are illegal based on statistics of the 12% of the prison population that's in the federal system, which is where being here illegally is dealt with, unless you're trying to be intentionally deceitful.

    --
    1984 was supposed to be a warning, not an instruction manual.
  29. Re:On the gripping hand. by SydShamino · · Score: 2, Insightful

    He could have said "it was like I was disconnected from my body, watching someone else do the things I was doing."

    I've heard that plenty of times from people doing wrong and right in a variety of situations - committing a crime, being a victim of crime, serving as a soldier in combat, dealing with an emergency situation.

    I saw an interview where the teen stated quite clearly "when it all started it was just like we were playing a video game". Thus, in his mind at least, there was some connection.

    Sure, he sees both video games and this murder as an example of him standing over the scene, pulling strings, like it wasn't really happening. What he says implies no causal relationship at all, it was just a convenient analogy.

    If he says something further about video games causing his behavior, then we can call him a manipulative bastard. For now we'll just call him a murderer.

    --
    It doesn't hurt to be nice.
  30. Re:doesn't work that way by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I don't think a "cure" is possible. Banishment outside civilized society could be an option, but an expensive one and not a very humane one. Another might be electronic monitoring or control. Whatever we do, we should act to minimize suffering, even their suffering.

    Well, I agree to a certain extent. But I think a cure IS possible, we simply don't know enough about the brain. But here is the real question: at some point I believe we will form that level of understanding of the brain. But what will we do with it? Is curing people of genetically-based antisocial behavior just?

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  31. Re:Stepmother by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Dont give up on her kids. Document what treatment they get. Get aquainted with someone from child service that has faculties to understand the problem - and her history. Dont give her any money, let her figure out what is most important - food or sigarettes. "Helping" people doing their mistakes over and over, is not really helping. Make an agreement with your parents what you do, so that when she turns to either of you - your response is the same. Dont be divided and conquered.

    It is only possible to really make a difference when acting out of dispassion and with intelligence.

    I cannot understand how any kid can be "illegitimate". They deserve a better start in life.

  32. Genetic factor? by SysKoll · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I know of at least two families of decent, considerate people who raised their kids normally. In both these families, the kids are bright, honest people, except for one sibling (in both cases) who stands out like a sore thumb for his antisocial attitude. Both did time in youth correction then in jail, repeatedly. The parents can hardly be blamed, they tried everything. I think that at least one of the kids has the same psychopathic attitude as the murderer mentioned in TFA.

    I really suspect a genetic disorder in these cases. I don't know which one, but I fail to see how the same household could produce such wildly dissimilar siblings. Same parents, same environment, same education... It's got to be genomes.

    This is not to absolve the little perps. Except in the most extreme cases, most people with psychopathic tendencies can exercise will power to keep themselves out of trouble. That's why I didn't take a gun in my car, for example. Yet, most of these bastards hogging the freeway during my commute would amply deserve a few high-caliber bursts, let me tell ya. But did I do it? Nope. Sheer will power at work. So I *know* it can be done. You always have a choice unless you are desperately screwed up.

    --

    --
    Mad science! Robots! Underwear! Cute girls! Full comic online! http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/

    1. Re:Genetic factor? by swordgeek · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Point well written, and (hopefully) well taken.

      I have a cousin who fits your description perfectly. He's a deadbeat, who has wept crocodile tears at everyone around him, stolen from his own parents, gotten religion, conned the Hell's Angels, all for a quick buck.

      His older and younger brother are fantastic guys, pillars of the community. Somehow the middle one just...slipped.

      Maybe it's genetics, and maybe it's FAS (something that wasn't diagnosed or even believed in, that far back). Doesn't much matter--he's digging his own grave, and his family won't help him with it.

      --

      "People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
    2. Re:Genetic factor? by SysKoll · · Score: 2, Informative

      There might also be another explanation for the "crazy guy" phenomenon. According to many articles, half of mankind is infected by a parasite, Toxoplasma, that is known to radically alter the behavior of rats. It's also suspected of creating schizophrenia-like symptoms in some human subjects who are either more sensitive or highly infected.

      So it's entirely possible that some cases of "unruly teen" behavior might be linked to a parasitic infection. A blood test is $30 and the cure is a couple of cheap pills. Next time I have an episode of road rage, I'm getting tested.

      Read up about it. It is both fascinating and disturbing. And it could save someone you know.

      --

      --
      Mad science! Robots! Underwear! Cute girls! Full comic online! http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/

    3. Re:Genetic factor? by porcupine8 · · Score: 2, Interesting
      The research is fuzzy on birth order effects - some studies show that they play a role in things like career choices and success of relationships, but then other studies show that they don't affect things like the "big 5" personality traits. And then people who have done either type of study claim that their study shows that birth order either does or doesn't matter, period, which doesn't make it any less confusing.

      But in my experience, if one sibling is a black sheep or burnout of any kind, it's almost never the oldest. I actually noticed this strongly as an undergrad at MIT; probably 75% of the people I knew there were oldest siblings. The next youngest generally fell into one of three categories: a) rarest, also went to MIT (specifically, hardly ever another top school) b) was "artsy" and "found their own path" or c) total burnout.

      I'm not saying that birth order is completely responsible, but it's probably a main supplement to the genetics.

      --
      Warning: Apple/Nintendo fangirl. Likes her electronics cute & cuddly. May be rabid.
  33. Re:Hmm You're 23 what do you know about the '60s? by Goaway · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Sorry, I do not live in your fucked-up country. I live in a country which largely follows "my ideals" and which is prospering. If you were honest with yourself, you'd have to try and find a better explanation for your problem than easy scapegoats.

    Like, I dunno, extreme social inequalities driving people into crime? A completely ineffective "war on drugs" that is doing nothing to curb the problem, but instead gives more power to criminals and fills up the jails? And so on, and so forth.

    No, you're right, let's beat up kids instead, that'll fix it.

  34. Life by Mark_MF-WN · · Score: 2, Insightful
    We ARE our mental chemistry, and Humans are not different than animals any more than apples are different than fruit. Unless you posit the existence of ghosts that can manipulate the electrical fields of the brain somehow, which is just fucking stupid.

    Choice and free will aren't even illusory -- the concepts don't even make sense to begin with. And it's ridiculous to suggest that the denial of free will implies that we can't summarily exterminate those who are destructive to the rest of us. It's no different than a pack of rats ganging up on the one rat that goes around biting the rest of them.

  35. Shipping 'em Out by lessthan · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I realize that the original suggestion was made by a comic, but stop and think about the consequences. If people like this are a result of nature, wouldn't the abnormality present itself in offspring? Only worse? Yes, you could implement gender segregation, but how long would that stop 4 states worth of amoral, determined, horny, psychopaths?

    --
    Space Shuttle was a program that strapped humans to an explosion and tried to stab through the sky with fire and math
    1. Re:Shipping 'em Out by ajs318 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If people like this are a result of nature, wouldn't the abnormality present itself in offspring? Only worse?
      Obviously, you'd bang their bollocks between two bricks before you sent them there!
      --
      Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
  36. Re:Lack of personal responsibility. by fucksl4shd0t · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You did read the same letter I read, right? The one full of reactionary measures? The one that was so explicit in describing how her and her husband failed completely to take any foresteps of any sort, but instead waited for the kid to screw up and then tried to do something?

    --
    Like what I said? You might like my music
  37. Re:What about love and understanding? by captainktainer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I feel that nobody in this world is evil at the core.

    Then you're scarily mistaken. Antisocial personality disorder has a known biological component. If you lack the biological components for empathy, or if they are twisted out of true, or if your arousal mechanisms are depressed (which is the case with APD) then there is a probability that you will grow up cold, manipulative, and outright evil. APD is a spectrum, with some people having just enough arousal depression to allow them to live a mostly normal life, but engage in risk-taking behaviors (such as mountain climbing or firefighting), while other people from very early childhood take every opportunity to harm others whenever it tickles their sick, twisted little pleasure centers.

    This kid is in that latter group. You need to get out of your pie-in-the-sky "It's all nurture" mentality and realize that sometimes evolution hands us a goddamned raw deal, and sometimes that raw deal hurts other people too.

  38. The problem... by Anomolous+Cowturd · · Score: 2, Insightful

    He was constantly in trouble in school, with the cops, with us, with his mother, and with anyone else who was an authority figure. Not a week went by that the school or the cops wouldn't call us for something. His attitude was basically "fuck you, I don't have to listen to you" said with a shrug.

    We tried absolutely everything we could think of to get him to behave like a normal human being... we tried groundings, negative reinforcement / punishment, positive reinforcement, counseling, and anything and everything the counselors suggested.

    They didn't try beating the living shit out of the little prick. Spare the rod...

    --
    Software patents delenda est.
  39. Re:doesn't work that way by geminidomino · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Does the inability to perform evil make one good, or merely sub-human?

    "A Clockwork Orange" was a vastly underrated book...

  40. Re:Lack of personal responsibility. by alienmole · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The parent post is correct, but neglects the salient point that when I was a kid (i'm 37), a valid response to the conditions noted would be to send the kid to a military school where they'd do the beating for you.
    Ah, good old abuse perpetuation. You poor baby. I'm truly sorry for your terrible childhood. However, try not to take it out on the rest of society.
  41. Re:reason why so many people do not want kids by Shadow99_1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    One of my friends has a wife who is Chinese and she will complain (if you let her) on how deplorable children are becoming in China because the government has made it easier on them...

    I'd argue that where you want to be is in a nation between 'modern' and 'pre-industrial', somewhere in there is the sweet spot for child-parent relations...

    --
    we are all invisible unless we choose otherwise
  42. Re:Sociopaths by Mark_MF-WN · · Score: 2, Interesting
    There's actually a rather sophisticated mental leap from the basic "I do X, then Y (which is bad) happens", and the more complex "I do X, Z (which is awesome) happens, then P shows up (who I hate), then P does Y (which is bad)". It takes a sophisticated set of mental systems to perform, which is why you don't see jellyfish and cockroaches doing it much.

    Think about it this way: when you see someone perform some act, you normally associate that act with that person, right? When you get mugged, you blame the mugger, right? When the neighbour kid throws a rock through your window, you don't associate it with your own actions right? It's only under special circumstances that you'll associate the actions of another Human being with your own actions.

    If you stuff a sociopath in a Skinner-box and try to condition them to behave some way, it will probably work. If you supply the shocks yourself, it wont. This is true of rats too -- if you shock the rat yourself to train it, it will just bite you and run away.

    Strictly speaking, sociopaths even have trouble with that kind of conditioning. They do incredibly unsafe things all the time because they have a great deal of difficulty responding even to environmental conditioning. You should read up a bit on the subject; sociopaths really are fascinating, like most people who lack some crucial aspect of Human psychology. In fact, sociopaths may be the most interesting of all the people that have psychological deviatons, because their aberration makes unable to perform the most fundamental of all Human acts: participating in a society.