Cyberbullying Laws Raise Free Speech Questions

Chad_DeVoss writes "States across the country are working on laws to rein in cyberbullying, claiming that electronic harassment has led even to the suicides of some children. But what about the First Amendment? Surely schools can't control what kids say to one another? It's an easy argument to make, but the reality is more complicated. From the article: 'The issue is further complicated by questions about whether cyberbullying takes place on school property or not. School officials do not generally have control over what students do outside of school, but, as the First Amendment Center reports, even this issue is complicated. Students who threaten or harass other students using school equipment or during school time can most likely be sanctioned, but even students who do such things from home face the possibility of school discipline under the 'substantial disruption of the educational environment' ruling from the Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District case from 1969.'"

Comments

School Censorship

[eldavojohn]

Surely schools can't control what kids say to one another?

I don't know about that.

When I was in high school, I was blatantly told that I didn't have the full rights of an adult until I was 18. I don't know if this is true or not. I actually still don't know if this is true. But let me relate the events that I witnessed and took part in while attending a small town high school in Minnesota.

The grade ahead of me was full of punks. I don't mean 'punks' in the derogatory term, I mean punks that accepted anybody, didn't drink much, tried to skateboard, talked about anarchy, didn't cause too much trouble but liked their music loud and fast. Now, the grade before me had access to an industrial copying machine via one of their parents. What resulted was a 'zine. A punk zine for a school that was often folded 8 1/2 x 11 pages stapled together with images, music reviews, articles & basically anything and all things punk. Including, but not limited to, taking it to the man. The zine was fifty cents to cover copying costs.

I loved these people, everyone else was a tightly knit clique of 'in' crowds where the punks didn't care if I listened to The Beatles & read Sci-Fi Fantasy & lived in the country.

The zine was considered contraband by the teachers. If they found it on your person, they gave you detention. One of the articles in an early edition criticized the entire student body of the school. Foul language was not omitted in this underground publication. First amendment right? The teachers didn't think so.

Lastly, the T-Shirts that people would try to wear were often banned. You were made to turn them inside out or go home with detention. Shirts that said "F You" or even "I hate this hick town." were grounds for detention. In the end, the punks made artwork and screened it onto shirts where it looked like a cool design but if you hooked your thumb and forefinger in it and pulled it down to cover up the inner four inches or so, it said "FUCK YOU." That way, they could choose to display the image whenever they wanted to and a teacher wasn't around. They weren't threatening people with it or harassing people, it was just their response to life and everything. The teachers found it offensive (and some of the dimmer students probably did too) so it was censored.

So to answer your question about schools censoring what the students can say to each other, I experienced that prior to being 18 quite a bit.

Re:School Censorship

[SatanicPuppy]

Sure, In Loco Parentis..."In place of parents" means they can do whatever your parents can do to you...On school property.

The real issue here is whether or not they have the right to go after you for things that you're doing off school property. In my mind, that's a definite no; their power relationship is governed by their location. At school, sure. Out of school? What's the theory behind that, and where does it end?

You're moving into a serious nanny state if you allow your educators to effectively assert control over your kids outside of a school environment. I understand why they feel the need...Lot of parents aren't holding up their end, so the schools feel like, in order to get something done, they have to do it themselves. I appreciate the frustration. However, it's a hugely bad precedent.

Re:School Censorship

[Paulrothrock]

I think you story goes to show that schools can't control what kids say. Your friends were able to publish and distribute a zine and wear shirts with profanity on it.

So the schools shouldn't stop "cyber bullying," but try to make a system that discourages bullying in the first place. I read somewhere that people end up bullying when they've got nothing better to do. Give these kids something productive, and they'll be too busy to worry about who smells or who slept with whom.

Re:School Censorship

[russ1337]

>>>> The real issue here is whether or not they have the right to go after you for things that you're doing off school property

Thanks for the tip on In Loco Parentis, I looked it up on Wikipedia and the excerpt below demonstrates a court case that disagrees with your point of view. I agree with you and don't believe the school should have this power, unless you're representing the school i.e. in school uniform. I added the bold for emphasis:

Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District (1969), when the Supreme Court decided that "conduct by the student, in class or out of it, which for any reason - whether it stems from time, place, or type of behavior - materially disrupts classwork or involves substantial disorder or invasion of the rights of others is, of course, not immunized by the constitutional guarantee of freedom of speech."

Re:School Censorship

[Alchemar]

My nephew was written a ticket by a police officer for cursing when he ran his knee into the corner of the desk because "using inapporpriate language in school is illegal." They are no longer even pretending that children have any rights in school. The problem that I have with this is that the children then grow up thinking that this is how things are suppose to be, and don't complain when they get their rights taken away as an adult. The schools are there to eductate. I keep hearing paid advertisements on the radio about teaching the children by example as well as what you tell them and make them read. Either the schools think they are magically exempt from this principle, or someone is trying to teach people how to comply.

There are laws about threatening people. Let the police use them. Don't give the school the authority to proscecute criminal behavior based on "policy." If they want to give a kid extra homework for cursing that is one thing, but to give them a ticket?!? To give a kid extra homework for threatening someone life ... also not real productive. The schools need to seperate policy from law. Don't give teacher the power to punish for crimes without a trial, and don't give the justice system the power to proscecute for not following policy.

Going into a school is now harder than entering a military base. When I had to enter a military base, they checked my ID and then gave it back. The school takes your ID and refuses to return it as long as you are on campus. When I asked what they were doing with my ID, the lady that was carring it off, told me "not to worry about it", and another one said "they have to have it." When I stated rather loudly that I was making a formal request to know what they were doing with my ID card and my personal information, another teacher pulled me aside and said that they were faxing them to the police station for a criminal background check. I live in one of the few states where it is illegal not to have your ID on you. I am very uncomfortable with they keeping possession of it.

I was told by another teacher that school policy overrulled state law because it was to protect the children. On further questioning, she told me the same applied to the Bill of Rights. My solution was to not go to the school. Now they are trying to pass a law making a request for a parent teacher conference the same as a court supeana, if you don't show up, then you get a $500.00 fine, and a criminal record.

I was told that I had to fill out a notarized statement about residence. Then I was told that I had to use their notary, and that she was only available from 8am - 11am and 2pm-3pm on two days during the middle of the week before school starts. The whole purpose of getting something notarized is to veryify that you are the one that signed it, why does it have to be done in person, and why can't they set it up so that people could do it before or after work, or maybe even during lunch?

When started making calls to the school board I was told the the Principle of the school gets to decide how she wants things done. How is that for a democracy. The schools make up there own rules as they go. When I asked to see this policy in writting, it took two weeks to get an email back. When I asked what law gave them the right to enforce this policy, I was told it was because the school had too many people from out of the district trying to get in the school. They were completely at a loss when I explained that there is a difference between a law or ordinace granting them power, and a reason as to why they want to do it.

The teacher routinely send home letters requesting that the children send money the next day, that have very generic descriptions about what the money is for. They say things like we are having a party and need money for snacks. Then at the bottom ask the kids to also bring a drinks and cookies for the party. They make sure that they tell the kids that if they don't bring the money they don't ge

Re:School Censorship

[darkstar949]

Yes, but one of the items addressed by Tinker v. Des Moines was if the conduct would create "materially disrupts classwork or involves substantial disorder or invasion of the rights of others is, of course, not immunized by the constitutional guarantee of freedom of speech." Or in other words, if the school can enforce something either isn't protected by the First Amendment, or would create a major distraction or disorder in the classroom which likely falls under the same principle of not being allowed to yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater.

Bulling someone online may create a distraction or disorder in the classroom, but that cannot be assumed by default because first you have to prove that the other person would have found the information - just because something is posted on "johndoesucks.com" doesn't mean that John Doe is ever going to visit that site. A better case could be made for infringing on the rights of other if the site contains libel, but you can bully someone just as well with the pure (but sensitive) truth as you can by making things up and the school can't act as a third party to enforce libel issues.

So now you are back to where you started with good intentions, but no real practical way of enforcing such an issue off campus - odds are the safer route for the school would be to just blanket cyberbullying under the misuse of school computers (i.e. accessing, or posting such material on school grounds) and leave it at that.

Re:School Censorship

[size8]

Concerning whether this will contravene the First Amendment. I'm from the UK, so have very little knowledge of US Constitutional matters. So maybe someone can tell me: in the USA, can't an organization say that if you want to join the organization, you must give up some rights that are guaranteed by the Constitution? For example, if you want to join the size8 society, the society rules state basically that you must give up the right to free speech - "You can't say size8 seems nasty, you must constantly state that size8 is akin to a god on earth". And if you don't like the idea of your freedom of speech being taken away in society business, then hey, don't join the society! My example is frivolous, sure, but the underlying point is anything but. So you don't like some of the rules of the local high school because they contravene the Constitution - so don't send your kid to that school. There are more than one high school in the vast majority of American towns, I'm sure. So, whether you agree with what I'm coming out with here... am I, in general, correct in this? (By which I don't mean it's okay for schools to do away with their students rights - I mean that strictly speaking, the schools have the right to say to parents "You wannaq send your kid to our school, you gotta accept our draconian rules". Am I right in thinking this? After all, I'm sure the KKK has some rules that are not constitutional... don't klansmen have the right to know that the other guy with a bedsheet over his head is opposed to desegregation? (And I'm not a KKK sympathizer!)

Re:Not for the courts

[Paulrothrock]

I had something similar happen recently. I went back home and ran out to get the pizza we ordered. Behind the counter stood someone from my high school graduating class. Back then, he was top dog. All the girls fawned all over him. He had a nice car and went to all the parties.

Now I'm the one with the nice car. I'm the one who's got a beautiful wife and a baby on the way and a great new job. And he's still working at the pizza place, still flirting with high school girls, and driving his now old, beat up car.

Re:Not for the courts

[tomstdenis]

Always pays to be modest though. I never mock or belittle my former 'peers" when I see them in those roles. Inside I may laugh a bit, but to be honest I think they know how much they fucked up. Plus, never piss off the dude making yer food :-)

Was kinda funny though, in my classes [in the advance stream] I was always the person people felt wouldn't make it, yet I was the one doing international talking engagements and working before even finishing my degree. w00t.

Actually, the best was when I met up with one of the former peers who was always kinda a brainer. I had just got back from a business trip to France, [while still in college]. I asked her what she was studying, "international business." Oh that's nice :-)

Tom

Educators have been neutered

[Yaddoshi]

My parents are both educators, and based on their stories about work, I've come to the conclusion that today's public school system, at least in New York state, is all about avoiding a lawsuit at all costs. All children pass every grade level, regardless of their academic achievement or ability or willingness to learn. Teachers are no longer permitted to so much as speak in anger while reprimanding a student, much less yell or put their hands on students. They have absolutely no control over their classrooms, and once the students figure this out, daily classes turn into chaos.

This is not fair for the students who actually have a desire to learn. Try learning something in a class where the students openly mock the teacher sometime, and see how much is accomplished in that short 30-40 minute period. It's like trying to be a Microsoft network administrator with a staff that downloads viruses and porn to their computers daily and expect you to fix it - nothing ever gets done. I've been told this issue is not just in New York, but other places as well, especially in the major cities.

How is it remotely possible for an administration that has been effectively neutered by mainstream society to stop cyber bullying?

On top of that, how many parents understand computers enough to be able to prevent their children from committing these deeds. After all, they are the only ones left with the authority to do so short of the local police.

...and people wonder why my wife and I are homeschooling our children.

Re:Sounds like just a bunch of...

[utopianfiat]

And what would you do when given a bunch of doublespeak bullshit about "critical thinking" and yet asked to respond to authority as totalitarian as stalinist russia (without the shootings and disappearances, of course). It's a bit of an exaggeration but you'd be surprised at what kind of authority schools have over kids- and when they're in high school and just beginning to explore the world of being an adult, the rules become little more than an annoyance. They think "Why am I wasting my time sitting in an office for something that could be resolved with a slap on the wrist and a detention slip?"
Schools need to learn how much control over their students is acceptable. Having happy and safe students is more important than excellence. I speak from experience when a lot of my graduating class now pops meth to deal with their classes and skip days of sleep at a time.
The schools try so hard to get their grades up, they end up ripping out the kid's soul.

Re:Bullying?

[Torvaun]

Well, you certainly have some strong feelings on this subject. I'm going to assume that you still carry a grudge against your group of bullies.

You seem to fail to realize that the major issue here is psychology. Children do not have the ability to empathize with the people around them. They do not feel the pain of others, that's a later development. In this respect, children share some of the major tendencies of adult sociopaths. You advocate treating them like adult sociopaths. That's all fine and dandy, but consider what prison does to people, what it will do to people during the aptly named 'formative years', and the fact that you are punishing them harshly for something that they will not understand the problem with for at least a couple more years, assuming an environment that is conducive to such learning.

You state that bullying is akin to mental torture. Perhaps in your case it was. But in other cases, it's a useful tool for teaching kids that you can't always get what you want. A necessary repression of the id, if you will. Otherwise, you get kids that spend all their life never having been forced towards social norms of any sort. The kid who picks his nose and eats it is getting bullied because of it? Good. Maybe he'll learn to stop before he hits the real world. I'll agree that bullying needs to be monitored to stop things like 'the kid who is vastly smarter than the others is getting bullied because of it,' but in most cases, being bullied is an important learning tool.

Re:Sounds like just a bunch of...

[DJCacophony]

That's what high school is supposed to be - it's supposed to prepare the kids for the real life, and not just in terms of knowing how to do math. High school is hard at first because the kids are starting to realize that they don't get to just do whatever they want, whenever they want. It's always hard dealing with a controlling boss, but high school prepares you for that by giving you a controlling teacher. Life is hard, and high school is supposed to bridge the gap between life and an ideal, predictable, structured environment.

Re:Not for the courts

[nkv]

I don't think you should stop at bullying. This whole "free speech" thing is getting out of hand. Don't get me wrong. I'm all for it but if you grant something like that to a bunch of immature, irresponsible people, you're going to get into a mess. It's fun to stir up some controversy and then go to court to settle it while overlooking whether it was the humanly decent thing to do but that sort of thing will kill "society" faster than suppression of free speech and turn it into a dog eat dog jungle where the courts protect the right to eat and encourage people to be dogs.

Re:Bullying?

[Asic Eng]

What is it with the US and double-speak these days? Words have meaning, why do they need to be re-defined until they become empty shells?

Bullying can include torture. Verbal abuse is just that: verbal abuse, and it's not torture. The next thing is that children are by defintion not adults. If there are seperate laws for children and for adults, then children can never ever be convicted as adults.

On the prison thing - this is the typical knee-jerk "law and order" approach. The US has an absurd number of adults in prison already (higher than any other western country), and still it's crime rate is higher than any other western country. It's easy to advocate "get tough on crime" policies, but experience has shown that these do not work. I don't blame anyone for thinking in the first place that this might work - it's not an unreasonable assumption. However once you've seen it fails you got to think of something else, you can't repeat the same thing and hope the results will change.