Slashdot Mirror
Selling Homeowners a Solar Dream
slugo writes to mention a Wired article discussing a unique business looking to capitalize on interest in solar power. The
Citizenr company will install a solar generator on your roof, completely for free. You then buy power from it, instead of a regular power company, at a fixed rate that's likely to be lower than the usual power fees. The company will make money on these usage fees, as well as credits from the federal government for spreading the use of solar power. If it sounds too good to be true to you, you're not alone. A number of financial analysts have warned people away from the company. "The naysayers are finding lots to say nay to. Much of the criticism is clinging to the company's multilevel marketing scheme. So far, more than 700 people have enlisted as independent Citizenr sales agents -- what the company calls 'ecopenuers' -- or about one sales representative for every 10 customers, with significant overlap. Heading that sales army is 42-year-old Styler, a veteran of multilevel marketing and a colorful figure in his own right." Pyramid marketing and shady business or not, it's an intriguing idea.
"So far, more than 700 people have enlisted as independent Citizenr sales agents -- what the company calls 'ecopenuers' "
The boldface buzzword is a warning sign: stay away, stay very far away.
I would love solar (or some other alternative) energy for my house. Love it. But it's just too expensive.
That said, this is kind of nuts. They're using my roof space, selling power back to the energy companies and I still have to pay them?
Now, set this up so I pay them a flat-rate for a few years (even a rather long time, like 7 years) and I would absolutely consider it.
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is kinky.
But, this is not completely free. There is a $500 deposit once you approve the design of the system.
s -selling-solar.html.
One thing that confuses people about how this works is the idea of net metering. The system is designed to meet 100% of you power use over a year. It is not designed to meet you peak power use. Under net metering you build up kWh credits when the Sun shines and you are not using all of the power, and you use those credits at night or on cloudy days. The key thing is that the credits last for a year so the seasonal differences in power production and power usage can match up annually. There is good information on net metering laws at http://www.dsireusa.org/.
At least three shashdot users are selling rental contracts for this company and if there are more please let me know so I can add them to this list http://mdsolar.blogspot.com/2007/01/slashdot-user
Please remember that this is a startup and it is going to take time to get going. No money will be collected until the panels are ready for installation!
The plan is entirely feasible.
If you start up a solar power "plant" you have to pay for the land, and you end up selling the power to the grid at wholesale prices.
With this, you get the land (roof tops) for free, and you can probably sell a good portion of the power at nearly retail prices directly to the home-owner, rather than the much lower wholesale price.
Whether there is scamming going on or not is a completely separate issue... It's certainly possible this company could be a scam to get at that some of that state and federal subsidy cash, but it's just as possible that it's not. And frankly, if I'm not a stock-holder, and am just buying a service from them, why do I care much if it does turn out to be some type of scam? At worst, you save some money in the short term, and have to give it up after a while... At best, maybe they go under, you'll be lucky enough to get a solar panel installed on your roof, free and clear (no more monthly fees).
It's not like solar power companies have a monopoly on scams...
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
This works under net metering, so it is not really a matter of running out of electricity. There is no storage in these systems except that provided by the grid and its responsiveness to changing loads. Net metering runs over a year, so an unusually cloudy year could affect revenues, but there are 40 states with net metering laws, so it would have to be cloudy all year everywhere for this to be a problem.
What happens if the company goes belly up, do I get to keep the generator, does uncle sam come & rip the thing off my roof, do I get the option to purchase it ?
Are they going to inspect roofs before installing theese things ?
"Multilevel marketing" ? Does that mean 3rd party contractors will be doing the install, who do I go to if my roof starts to leak after the install ?
If there's bad weather enough for me to have to use traditional grid power occasionally, do they cover the difference since their service failed ?
What happens if I decide to get my roof replaced while this thing is up there ?
How much of my roof will this thing require, will having a pool heating unit up there already be a problem ?
Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
Thousands upon thousands of people have done it, and continue to do so. The economics are well-settled at this point.
Photovoltaic generation on a house-load level IS cost-effective in one situation: New construction in rural areas, where it displaces running a long (and high-priced) grid connection. Then the money that would have been spent on the grid tie can be spent on the capital cost of the photovoltaic system instead.
This one requires a grid tie for net metering, so that displacement is not available.
Unfortunately, equipment costs for grid-tied photovoltaic equipment is still high enough that you're ahead to invest the money it would have cost and spend the interest buying power for the life of the system you didn't install. (This could change with enough lowering of equipment costs or raising of electric power prices.)
If you have a source for equipment inexpensive enough to back up your claim, please let us know what it is. I have two houses where I'd LOVE to install such a system.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
I don't understand the skepticism. The company is willing to install a power generator on your roof free of charge. Even if the company goes under, it wouldn't make sense for the new owners to remove the panels as long as they have a revenue stream coming from them as is.
As far as I can tell, the only way you could possibly get screwed is if the market price of electricity on the public grid falls below the rate to which you agree for private provision. But if the market price rises, you get an even better deal. People are rational and will evaluate signing one of these contracts based on what they are paying for electricity now and expect to be paying in the future.
Who cares about the company's marketing method? What matters is whether they can make the business model work. This is a fantastic idea environmentally and it seems to be good for the consumer too. The details are all going to be in the contracts between homeowners and the company, not the company and its sales force.
The $3-4 cost per peak watt with present panels is driven now by scarcity of solar grade silicon and smaller scale less efficient production. The company expect a cost near $1.53 per peak watt and an energy return on energy in in about one year. This comes from scale and producing their own silicon. You can see that this is pretty much on the trend identified here http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/m oney/2007/02/19/ccview19.xml.
Sorry to be rude, but you really need to be more accurate in your math if you're going to opine on this. First of all, it's not nearly so small a fraction wholesale. Typical costs installed are about $8/watt, which covers quite a bit more than the panels, which cost about $4/watt wholesale.
However, just take your $10,000 system. Now in reality that only will provide you with about $50 of electricity per month at $4/watt (2500 watts) but even if it did provide you with $150, you have forgotten what every mortgage holder knows -- that money today is worth far more than money (or electricity) in the future.
So $10,000 at 7% interest in fact takes 85 months, not 67 months to pay off at $150/month saving. This doesn't seem like a big difference, but it's because your price numbers are off. At the real price of solar, a $10K system provides, as noted, only $50 worth of power, and you can never, ever, in any number of months, pay off $10,000 at $50 per month because the interest per month is more than $50. So the math error becomes a difference between a real payoff rate and infinity.
Has it been over a year since you last donated to the Electronic Frontier Foundation
Odd that you think off-grid solar is cost effective and grid-tie isn't. Off-grid solar usually has batteries. Since people don't want their batteries to be constantly in discharge, they often end up with the panels throwing away the output because the batteries are charged or close to charged. This really screws up the economics of panels.
What makes off-grid cost-effective is when it saves you enough by NOT running the grid to the site to pay for much or all of the system.
Example: Suppose the cost of the system - panels, batteries, inverter, wiring (excluding the house wiring), instalation, and all comes to exactly the same as the grid hookup. Now your instalation is FREE. Your power cost become the cost of maintainence for the system - mainly replacing the batteries every five to ten years. That's a drop in the bucket compared to a power bill.
With grid-tie, all power generated by the panels is always used, either in the house, or by the grid. The grid is your 100% efficient storage.
Not really, though it's close. Two main losses:
If you feed more than you use in a given year the excess is lost. (Like the dump load on the batteries.)
And you still pay the connect fee. (In the case of Sierra power in Nevada that's currently $6/month. $72/year would cover the periodic replacement costs for about 5-10 KWHr of your deep-cycle battery capacity.)
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
It's just many nerds are good at math...
I signed up to be an associate
I think the naysayers will be put in their place in the next month or so when the press release comes out
It will take more than a press release to convince techies. Something like, maybe, a working product?
I'm a NASD licensed former floor-trader [...] and C-Level Sales Shark, and I "get" the numbers
Whatever. On the other hand, you are not a businessman, because otherwise you would have immediately asked a very simple question. If your company happens to develop such a revolutionary solar panel (cheap, efficient or both), why to bother with homeowners at all? Just make solar panels for the whole planet, and then you can buy Microsoft with your spare change; the whole world will be at your service. Presidents of Kyocera and Sharp would be genuflecting in your lobby, and Secretary General of UN would be begging you to answer his calls (there is plenty of sunlight in Africa, and not much oil.) But no, instead of making the largest transnational corporations its customers CitizenRe picks ... homeowners, for $deity's sake! That's ridiculous, assuming CitizenRe's claims -- but totally understandable if CitizenRe's directors are just setting up a pyramid, with homeowners as stupid pawns. That's because Sharp would not move a finger without doing due diligence (and they know how to do it right, working with the technology for decades) but your average Sally and Tom will gladly pay $500 for unsubstantiated claims; indeed, "a sucker is born every minute". Some of such su^H^Hpeople will even sign up as unpaid members of the pyramid in hope to profit. In your case it is absolutely laudable that you chose to set aside your super-profitable career as a trader, licensed and all, and instead spend your expensive time on this free work.
Why would you expect Citizenre to [do] ?
A demo of their solar panel - installed in a standard house - would do a lot. It's not like a black shiny panel will reveal its technology to watching journalists. A mass-produced lot, with a sticker price on it, would remove all the doubts. But as it stands, the company is all hat and no cattle. Anyone with half a brain (or more) should treat them as a scam unless proven otherwise.
I've signed up with CitizenRe as well, and I have not chosen to be a "ecopreneur," so I have no referral link to place.
To answer your question: yes, I would love to own the system outright, and to outfit it with a large bank of deep-cycle batteries, etc. However, I do not have the $35-50,000 that such a system would require, nor do I have the credit to finance such a system. Therefore, CitizenRe, with their virtually "no risk to either side" contract, is the best option for "going green" and also saving a whole bunch of money.
Right now, CitizenRe has nothing about me except a name, an address, a telephone number, and a signature on a piece of paper indicating I will purchase all the electricity their solar cells can generate for a period of 25 years at $0.08/kWh. I predict this will be an excellent gamble, as energy prices are unlikely to fall dramatically (right now, the average rate for electric service in Texas is $0.124/kWh), and I will still be generating electricity in an environmentally-friendly manner.
These are the reasons I signed up. Not to make "gobs" of money, or to try to recruit other people. I did so because I wanted to, and without selling, so they let me.