Viacom vs. YouTube - Whose Side Are You On?

DigitalDame2 writes "Lance Ulanoff of PCMag believes that the Viacom and YouTube lawsuit is a bad idea because it has the potential to damage the burgeoning online video business; instead, it could work with the millions of people who are currently viewing Viacom content on YouTube. On the other side, Jim Louderback, an editor-in-chief of PCMag says that Lance doesn't know what he's talking about: with all the content available online for free, Viacom can kiss those investments goodbye. YouTube is actively filtering, actively allowing uploads, and making money off of the content that's been uploaded. The courts will find that Viacom has been wronged, that Google has not done enough to protect the rights of copyright holders, and that Google owes Viacom reparations. Whose side are you on?"

Comments

somewhere between!

[DriveDog]

Success by Viacom in getting commercial stuff removed but no major fees rewarded would be perfect... less commercial stuff on YouTube.

Re:somewhere between!

[Seumas]

I'm tired of companies getting rich off of questionable or illegal practices and then, once they have a massive userbase, suddenly selling out to someone to go legit. It's what the original youtube did. It's what Napster did. Imagine if I started up a car dealership and instead of paying for my own cars to stock my dealership, I went down the street and stole them from my competition. Then I sold those and once I had sold enough of these stolen cars, I had enough customers and money and attention that I could afford to go legit.

It's even worse than companies like Worldcom that can completely screw people over and break every law on the books, fire one guy and just keep on doing business as usual. So the moral of the story is that it's wrong for you or me to "steal" and justify it with "fair use", but it's okay to do it if you're a corporation or are being eyed by hungry corporations.

Re:somewhere between!

[webheaded]

I'm sorry, but that's a crock of shit, honestly. YouTube and Google aren't stealing anything. When they are asked to take stuff down, they do. Beyond that, they have no obligations to police the shit out of the site. If the copyright holders want to bitch about it, then they can do so in the form of a takedown notice or shut the hell up. I can't even understand why anyone thinks that Viacom is in the right. Again, YouTube is powered by users, not Google. Pull your head out of your ass.

Viacom is right, google is wrong

[stratjakt]

Just because we like google doesn't mean they aren't wrong.

If I were to run a public ftp, and let people upload all sorts of copyrighted crap, I'm liable - wether I knew they uploaded it or not. Theres plenty of precedence there, people have been burned for "pubs" on their hardware, that they had no knowledge of.

Why should google be above the law, just because they're a /. fave?

Youtube doesn't have the right to host whole tv shows, movies, etc.

Then YouTube turns around to sue a website for copyright infrigement, for allowing you to download the YouTube content - that they don't even own.

I hate youtube. I hate google even more for their involvement of it. It's napster jr, plain and simple, and it'll be shut down.

Re:Viacom is right, google is wrong

[nuzak]

It's very simple: we like the content, we want everything for free, therefore copyright is evil. The justifications come after the fact.

I hate the RIAA and MPAA as much as anyone, and I think the DRM schemes are a pretty cynical attempt at lock-in and control, but this is pretty clear cut: it's Viacom's stuff that Viacom's advertisers pay Viacom to distribute, and Youtube is cutting them out completely. This is the blatant stuff that makes them push for things like broadcast flags and DRM from end to end.

Re:Viacom is right, google is wrong

[omeomi]

If I were to run a public ftp, and let people upload all sorts of copyrighted crap, I'm liable - wether I knew they uploaded it or not. Theres plenty of precedence there, people have been burned for "pubs" on their hardware, that they had no knowledge of.

Actually, from what I understand (and IINAL), Section 512(c) of the DMCA includes a "safe harbor" provision that basically says that Google isn't liable unless they refuse to take down material that they have been told to remove by the copyright holder. For better or for worse, right now it's up to Viacom to check for their own content on YouTube, and alert Google when they find it.

Re:Viacom is right, google is wrong

[russ1337]

>>>"it's Viacom's stuff"

If they don't want people to see it, don't broadcast it in the first place.

If they want to control it properly, have could big rooms that seat maybe 100 people, and with large screens. Oh put them in public places where you can pay an 'admission' fee. You might want to serve food in the foyer as I tend to get hungry. Perhaps Popcorn.

Re:Viacom is right, google is wrong

[Curtman]

If I were to run a public ftp, and let people upload all sorts of copyrighted crap, I'm liable - wether I knew they uploaded it or not. Theres plenty of precedence there, people have been burned for "pubs" on their hardware, that they had no knowledge of.

And how is it that usenet has survived all these years? Some time ago it stopped being a place for geeks to chat, and got jam packed full of kiddie porn, pirated video, and warez.

My ISP has a usenet server, my University (funded by public tax dollars) has a usenet server, etc, etc. Not one lawsuit that I've ever heard of.

Re:Viacom is right, google is wrong

[nuzak]

Took less than five minutes for justification #1. Any more takers?

Re:Viacom is right, google is wrong

[stratjakt]

I have no idea how usenet slipped under the radar so long. IRC + private ftps have been left alone too. Maybe it's just so geeky and obscure, and just doesn't do the volume to alarm the big guys - where napster and youtube do? I do know that in some cases posters have been tracked down and sued (stupid ones who let themselves be ID'd).

I also know there's a couple dudes that hang out in front of the 7-11 a block away, and I know they sell crack, I've seen them do it with my own eyes. I also know the cops must know, but they haven't done anything about it. Maybe they got bigger fish to fry? Maybe they've just given up on 'da hood'. Maybe their building a case against a higher-up and dont want to rock the boat?

Whatever the case, it doesnt mean it's okay to sell crack.

Re:Viacom is right, google is wrong

[Kpau]

Lets also be clear that Viacom is just as much a "content provider" as Google is. In other words, they create NOTHING. Viacom is just another middleman between the artists and the viewers. In fact, since their products never make any money (see Viacom and others - accounting practices), they usually avoid paying out much that was earned to the artists (see various **AA member tactics). I'm kind of the opinion that Google acquired Youtube to slam this to the mat and Viacom bit into it. I suppose one could also argue that *this* is real entertainment as opposed to that other crap :)

Re:Viacom is right, google is wrong

[pipatron]

As I mentioned in another discussion, it's not only difficult for YouTube to control the copyright on uploaded material - it's impossible. I can upload some clip of a swedish TV show, but who would they contact to see who owns the copyright to that?

I could also add "(c) Viacom" to some clip that I have made, does that mean that Viacom now actually owns the right to copy that clip?

Re:Viacom is right, google is wrong

[yali]

Legally you're right. Youtube is within the protection of the DMCA and should win the lawsuit.

However, they are exploiting that protection. When somebody uploads Viacom's copyrighted content to YT, YT makes money off of the content until the moment that Viacom discovers it and tells them to take it down. YT gets to keep the money, and Viacom's product is now less valuable because thousands or millions of people have already seen it.

Seems like a potential legislative tweak to "safe harbor" would be to require service providers like Youtube to track ad hits/revenue gained from any particular content source. If Viacom can prove that the content was theirs, then Youtube should then have to turn over that money to the rightful copyright holder.

Re:Viacom is right, google is wrong

[iminplaya]

OK, so copyright is intended to motivate creativity.

Oh jeeze! It is not! It is intended to protect established distribution channels. That's ALL that it is for. nothing else. The only law that there is to protect the creators are those against plagiarism "the unauthorized use or close imitation of the language and thoughts of another author and the representation of them as one's own original work." Note the second "and" in there. It is all important. Because to me, there is no such thing as "unauthorized use". So it has to include the part about false representation. It is something that is not transferable in any way, and it lasts forever. And that there is the key, and the ONLY thing that any IP law should apply to. IP law exists to protect business, not to motivate creativity. Creativity is properly motivated by necessity and curiosity.

Re:Viacom is right, google is wrong

[Mr2001]

It's very simple: we like the content, we want everything for free, therefore copyright is evil. The justifications come after the fact. Maybe that's how you think, or more likely how your imagined version of a file sharer thinks, but don't pretend you can speak for everyone who's opposed to copyright.

There are plenty of reasons to oppose restricting free speech in order to make information a scarce good that have nothing to do with "wanting everything for free", and in fact many of us would be happy to pay content producers directly for their work, if they'd just mind their own business instead of telling us how we can or can't use our own hardware and internet connections.

Re:Viacom is right, google is wrong

[Atario]

Whatever the case, it doesnt mean it's okay to sell crack.

Doesn't mean it's not ok, either. I tend to say it is ok. However, it is almost certainly, at the moment at least, illegal.

I'm going to put off voting.

[andy314159pi]

Considering our likely imminent destruction, I'm going to refrain from voting until we rebuild civilization.

Just like Napster...

[John3]

YouTube is hosting the material, so ultimately Viacom will win.

Sure, YouTube is a cool idea and users love it, just like Napster was a hit with users. It's the darn content creators who are up in arms.

Hmm. Hom. Hoom.

[Stanistani]

>Whose side are you on?

Treebeard: "I am on no one's side, because nobody is on my side."

Side? What side?

[DogDude]

One multinational corporation vs. another multinational corporation. Why should I care? Let 'em slug it out. It's not like video on the Net is going to go anywhere, anyway. Spam is illegal, and he have tons of that. Kiddie porn is illegal, and we have tons of that online. Phishing and all kinds of other scams are illegal, and we have plenty of that. Does anybody think that corporate lawsuit #50,401,432 over online video is going to make any kind of real difference to anybody but the attorneys getting paid?

With the purchase of YouTube, Google has

[zappepcs]

taken the first step needed to be at the forefront of video based entertainment for the next decade or more. Viacom seems to be having second thoughts about upgrading their business model.

YouTube/GooTube will be shown to be innocent of any major issues. Viacom will have to get in the game and change their business model, or watch this particular game at home on tv!

We all understand clearly how the **AA has alienated their customers in no small way. Viacom is trying to do the same thing. While it is not clear what failed in the negotiation stage, it is clear to me that they will lose. It is not Google that puts offending material on the Internet. Remember that Google is hardly the only video sharing site on the Internet.

Viacom's real problem is not Google. Their real problem is that the public at large do not respect copyright as Viacom and others would like to define it. (lets not bring in the real definition at this point) That is to say: The public in general would like to redefine 'fair use' for copyrighted materials, and do so in a way that removes some of the business revenue from Viacom and others.

IMO, Viacom and others will simply have to get used to it, or be part of it if they want to stay in business.

Go with YouTube

[AKAImBatman]

10 years ago, the music industry became aware of a little thing called "MP3s". They offered the potential of distributing music through online channels. But rather than embrace it as a new business outlet, fraught with exciting new opportunities and possibilities, the music industry tried to squash it. Before they knew it, Napster was created. So they quashed that. Then GNUTella was created and they could quash that. Then Kazza, and BitTorrent, and Limewire, and so on and so forth.

In the end, the music industry could not put the genie back in the bottle. It was only the introduction of iTunes that saved them from imploding.

I see a lot of parallels here. While YouTube videos may seem like a bad idea for the old distribution models, they are increasing the amount of exposure that many shows are getting. Comedy Central's hosts have been getting more famous by the day, thanks to YouTube, and CBS has managed to promote personalities like Craig Ferguson by releasing videos themselves. I can respect Loudback's position on this, but there's simply no room for stalling the market. The forces in action WILL demand a way, whether YouTube is the vehicle or not. It's better to embrace them than it is to fight them.

If you'll excuse the overused term, it's time to innovate!

Null Concept

[Toonol]

"Actively Allowing?"

I'm not sure that's even a valid concept.

Betting the odds...

[lpangelrob]

Considering Viacom is a 52 to 1 underdog, I'm going to be prudent and pick Google.

Neither side

[Todd Knarr]

I'm not on the side of either Viacom or Google. I'm on the side of the law. The law, specifically the DMCA, spells out what responsibilities Google has, and what Viacom has. Viacom's argument here is that, while Google lives up to it's responsibilities, Viacom finds living up to theirs inconvenient and therefore Google should be saddled with Viacom's responsibilities too. Sorry, Viacom, but that's a matter for you to take up with Congress (who wrote the law).

Re:Neither side

[Todd Knarr]

Well, on the first one, the counter-argument is that my own Web-host does the same thing to my Web pages. They're uncompressed when I upload them, but if the requesting browser supports it the Web server will gzip-compress them for download. That would, by what you present, disqualify my Web host from the safe-harbor provision. Yet the case of my uploading static Web pages to my Web host to be downloaded by requesting browsers, where the Web host doesn't actively approve content, is exactly the circumstance envisioned by the authors of the safe-harbor provision.

For the third, yes, if Google/YouTube is actively looking for material and taking action based on what they find then they get excluded from the safe-harbor provision. But mere searches aren't quite enough to show that, since they can be done unofficially by employees not acting in their official capacity, or they might have been done as a consequence of a notification (in which case they clearly wouldn't disqualify Google from the safe-harbor provision, it's simply not reasonable to hold that by complying with it's obligations under that section Google sacrifices the protection granted by that self-same section if it complies).

The second one is the only one where Viacom has any solid arguments. And even there, the advertising and such isn't specifically attributable to the infringing activity. It's global to all activity on YouTube, including all of the vast sea of non-infringing material put up there by creators. I guess the question then is, is it reasonable to say that the safe-harbor provision was intended to block all financial benefit to any entity wishing to take advantage of it? If it wasn't then Viacom seems to end up having to show that the majority of content on YouTube is infringing somehow, that YouTube knows this and that YouTube encourages it at the expense of encouraging legitimate uses. That's the Grokster standard, IIRC, and I don't think Viacom can do that without a devastating response from Google.

Re:Youtube...

[nuzak]

That's pretty much what the DMCA is all about, yes. However, Viacom is alleging bad faith on Youtube's part in that a) they do respond in a timely fashion, b) their material is predominantly infringing, and that c) they are profiting off the infringement. There's some precedents to back all these up, but I don't exactly have legal research resources beyond the intarwebs to cite them for you.

Some of these points are debateable, but the preponderance seems to weigh pretty heavily against Youtube.

Sides? Sides?

[SQL Error]

Never mind sides. I'll be over here selling popcorn.

Re:Napster

[Anonymous Coward]

I would be more interested in knowing if Google has jumped the shark?

In my opinion, the series went downhill when Yahoo got pregnant and they killed off Lycos.

I am on neither side

[baomike]

Which ever one first decides to provide some interesting content gets my vote.
In the battle of the inane vs the vacuous there are no winners.

Depends on the judge

[gravesb]

It really depends on the judge. A good judge will look at the DMCA, the Grokster decision, then how much user created content is on YouTube, decide YouTube doesn't actively encourage infringement or rely upon it as a business plan, and will tell Viacom to police YouTube, as is the intent of the DMCA. A bad activist judge will correct this "injustice" and find against Google. Either way, Viacom loses out long term. This is a stupid law suit.

Viacom is misguided

[Cracked Pottery]

They are pulling damage figures out of their ass. If anything the appearance on YouTube increases the appreciation of their programming. Naturally they would like to like to stream them through their own advertiser supported network. Damages should not be an issue, just copyright honoring.

Re:Viacom is misguided

[teh_chrizzle]

They are pulling damage figures out of their ass.

and just where else would you pull estimated damages for unauthorized sharing from?

everyone in the intellectual property business pulls damages out of thier ass... that's standard operating procedure. the IP business is about selling stuff that doesn't really exist... it's stuff you pull it out of your ass and sell to other people. clearly, if someone distributes your imaginary product without your authorization, you can sue them for all of the imaginary sales that you have lost out on. as long as we are working in the realm of the imagination, you might as well imagine big and try to jack google for a billion dollars.

Re:Viacom is misguided

[teh_chrizzle]

Perhaps your tune would change some if you'd spent a full year of your life, working 8-12 hour days pulling a full novel "out of your ass"

i don't have to worry about that. i have a grownup job. i work 8-12 hours a day for assholes and no one will ever ask me for an autograph. if you are so worried about people taking your imaginary product, perhaps you should get a grownup job too, or maybe you should diversify your offerings with stuff that can't be easily duplicated. or better yet, thank your lucky stars that you are able to make a living as a writer and that you don't have to get a grownup job like the rest of us.

let's say that i "steal" your book... as in i tried to pass it off as mine and make money from it. is that really what youtube does? can you really watch a YouTube Productions Ltd. of "Desperate Housewives" in HD quality?

no, you can't. you have to watch shitty clips that are in no particular order. i can see that the TV networks are in real danger.

now, let's say i took your book, and said to everyone i know "mcrbids wrote a cool book and i want you to read it... here take this shitty copy of part of it." if it was a hardcopy book that would be fine, but if it was a PDF the shit would hit the fan.

how can you say, with confidence, that the 10, 100, or 1000 people i gave the PDF to would actually have bought the book before i gave them a digital copy? how many of them would say "thanks! i was just about to pay money for that." you can't, therefore the damages you claim are imaginary.

on the other hand, i can say with relative certainty that if i emailed your book to a thousand people, at least one of them would go out and buy it. especially if it was good enough for me to bother copying and distributing it in the first place.

people treat intellectual property the same way that they treat real property. that's just how it is. you can waste your writing time fighting that battle or you can find a way to capitalize on it. the choice is yours. the only difference between you and viacom is that viacom can afford to sue for billions and all you as an aspiring writer can do is cry about it.

Viacom invests many millions of dollars to produce these shows "out of their ass".

have their ratings suffered? don't they get paid by the networks before the shows go on the air? has some network threatened to drop the show as a result of youtube? won't the shows end up on DVD and in syndication eventually where there are profits from those sales just like every other studio? if anything, viacom can justify raining the price of it's show to the networks thanks to all the buzz on the net over their fabulous shows.

how much money does viacom need to keep producing shows? how much do you need to write a book? is a billion dollars really justified?

is there value in putting your life on hold to create something of value forthe world to enjoy? of course there is. are the people at viacom doing the same thing that the aspiring writer is doing? hell no. they are a huge corporation with billions and they are only interested in making more billions. i'm a little light on sympathy for giant media companies at the moment.

artists need to make livings in order to keep producing, but at some point in the pursuit of a living it stops being about the art and starts being about enriching the lifestyle. it happens to artists and it happens to people with grown up jobs.

i think suing google for a billion dollars is a clear message that it's stopped being about the art for viacom.

Google/Youtube of course.

[Jackie_Chan_Fan]

What does CBS/Viacom want? Google doesnt have technology to magically scan pixel patterns and match them up to CBS tv shows when someone uploads a video.

Google takes down material when asked.

It is that simple.

Anything else expected by CBS/Viacom is unreasonable and impossible to do.

Google should just kick CBS and Viacom and all of its properties off of Googles search engine.

BTW CBS was partnered with a search engine for a while. One.com or something like that. I forgot what the hell it was called but you would win points the more you searched which would enter you in a monthly drawing for a million dollars.

Perhaps CBS is just pissed off that their investment was a complete failure thanks to Google's dominating power.

These companies dont get it. Its a new generation of media. Things are different, and laws much adapt as do the companies... to the new way we access and share media. The internet is a lonely place without video, music and text.

Posting a video on Youtube is the way things are, and have evovled. It's not a crime, its a new use of technology. Its a way to say "HEY man.. check out my new audio tape... this song is great" and then you play it for your friend.

Now we can say "hey world.. check this out... i liked it, maybe you will" or "I made this funny edit of wolf blitzer saying stupid things"...

Its just a new world. Laws need to lighten up not tighten down. There's a great benefit to having your video being displayed somewhere. I would think CBS would be greatful for the free publicity, plus the fact that they dont have to invest money to host that on expensive servers with demanding bandwidth expenses.

Its free publicity. Eat it up. Not clamp down

Re:Viacom?

[Qzukk]

I don't know... all Google has to do is trot out Viacom's screwups like C&Ding a game engine tutorial and they can make a pretty good case that Viacom has no clue whatsoever how much of their stuff is on YouTube, and that their claims of massive infringement are massively overstated. Furthermore they can state that if Viacom can't figure out what they own, Google obviously has no chance to figure it out on their own, and therefore must abide by the safe harbor provisions of the DMCA and follow Viacom's takedown notices to the best of their abilities, given the evidence of Viacom's inaccuracies.

Re:YouTube, please

[Anonymous Coward]

Check out this video: http://youtube.com/watch?v=OAd_vpsufRU

Short of it is if your video was unjustly taken down because of Viacom, then the EFF wants to hear from you. Sounds like you'd be a great case.

Wrong

[RingDev]

Napster got nailed not because they allowed users to share pirated bits. They got nailed because they ADVERTISED that fact. P2P sharing is not illegal. Setting up a service that advertises and knowingly facilitates pirating IS. YouTube is not advertised as a place to go for pirated videos, it is advertised as a place for individuals to post videos, and they are actively working to prevent permitted copy written material from appearing.

If that distinction does not hold up in court (or if a deal is not worked out prior to judgment) then it could set up a dangerous precedent that would likely soon lead to the RIAA going after P2P networks, open FTP servers, IRC servers, Usenet, etc... instead of individuals.

-Rick

pleh, type-o

[RingDev]

"...working to prevent permitted copy written material from appearing"

should read

"...working to prevent unpermitted copy written material from appearing"

Makes a little more sense that way.

-Rick

Short clips are fair use...

[FunWithKnives]

One thing that many seem to be forgetting is that short excerpts are defined as fair-use. I believe that if Viacom actually does succeed with this lawsuit, it will set a very bad precedent. The majority of videos that have been taken down so far have been short clips, and thus fair-use compliant. I actually tried in vain recently to look up the clip of John Stewart's take on Senator "Series of Tubes" Stevens and Net Neutrality. It has been taken down (probably many times), and yet I am fairly certain that it would fall within the boundaries of fair-use.

I support the removal of full content, such as movies. It does not make a difference if they are chopped up into ten minute segments or not, because it is quite simple to put the full movie back together again. Regarding full television shows, though, I am still unsure. I believe that the boundary is blurred at that point. However, short clips of shows or movies should not by any means be removed. It does not matter if it is in order to placate the parent corporation or not. I hope that Google makes this one of the cornerstones of their defense, and really drives it home that fair-use is actively being usurped.

Re:Short clips are fair use...

[yali]

One thing that many seem to be forgetting is that short excerpts are defined as fair-use.

No they're not. The amount of a work that you use is only one of four factors that go into defining something as fair use. Other considerations include transformative value - for example, using a piece of someone else's work in order to comment on it or parody it. Most of the kind of clips you're talking about aren't transformative at all -- the meaning and significance of 2 minutes of Jon Stewart online is largely the same as those same 2 minutes within the context of a 30 minute show.

Re:Short clips are fair use...

[zipwow]

How much "commenting" is required? If I upload 2 minutes of Jon Stewart with "OMG, this RULZ", is that enough? What if I say, "This was one of the funniest, and saddest, clips of the last several months"?

What I'm driving at here is that the article you link to (as all articles about fair use) reads more like how to prepare for a jury trial than it does about how to obey the law.

-Zipwow

Who should Win? We should Win.

[Gonarat]

My knee-jerk reaction is to say that Google should win, put I think this case needs to be looked at closer -- this is a good example of the future meeting the past.

On Google's side:

They are complying with the DMCA takedown notices. The problem is, as soon as one takedown is done, another copy goes up under another title or user name. It is like playing whack-a-mole.

Not all of the content is simply copies of content available on the air. I have seen some well done "Music Videos" (i.e. Clips from different movies/TV shows set to various songs) and some interesting stuff like the (fake) Titanic II film promo.

YouTube video is low quality. I would rather watch a full TV show on a real TV set rather than YouTube.

Google is in business to make money.

On Viacom's side:

The material does belong to them. Having to keep issuing takedown notices is a pain in the ass, and takes up a lot of time and money.

From Jim Louderback, also of PC Mag - Jim's Column - Providers such Viacom have agreements with Cable and Satellite providers stating that only x% of their programming can be on line (x is typically 10% or less), so having all of this video online could open them up to breach of contract.

They are in the business to make money.

On My Side:

It is good to have access to content without a lot of restrictions. Like it or not, content put out by Viacom, the RIAA, et. al. becomes part of our culture, and should not be totally locked up. The problem is, where should the line be drawn? I think Viacom should allow clips and derived content, but I can understand wanting to keep some sort of control over it.

I want as much content as possible for as little money as possible (I already pay for Internet and Satellite, so I have access to most of the Viacom channels)

Solutions?

So what is the best solution? There has to be some happy medium where everyone can get at least some of what they want. The RIAA has been fighting p2p for at least seven years now, and has nothing to show for it but declining revenues and increasing hatred by the public. Why would Viacom and/or Google want to end up in the same boat? If Viacom wins, they will look as greedy as the RIAA and the public will find other places to post content. If Google wins, Viacom et. al. will just lobby for changes in the DMCA, which already stinks enough as it is. So what to do --

1. Settle this suit by Google offering Viacom a reasonable payment to cover posting of material. At the resolution that YouTube uses, neither Viacom or the Cable/Satellite industry should suffer. Most people would rather watch shows on a nice TV instead of a small YouTube window.

2. Figure out a way to end the content wars once and for all. This includes the RIAA's ongoing war against p2p and along with the YouTube crap that is going on also. It is time to quit suing and put the Lawyers to work actually doing something constructive for once in their lives -- fixing copyright so that it works in the Internet era. This may involve a small monthly fee along with my DSL bill -- I wouldn't mind paying $5 to $10 per month to allow for legal p2p downloads, YouTube viewing, etc. Forget DRM -- it just penalizes your customers and doesn't stop "piracy" anyway.

The market has changed, and resisting change isn't working. It is time to quit trying to turn back the clock, and time to move forward. The VCR didn't kill the Movie Industry (quite the opposite -- take that Jack V), quit bitching and get to work. Otherwise, Viacom, the RIAA, et. al. will end up committing slow suicide.

Your call guys.

Rant over.

Well Exactly!

[NickFortune]

I agree. It's not a simple either/or question. Does Viacom have a right to protect its copyrights? Yes! Is one billion dollars in damages sensible, sane, or in any way indicative of the damage to Viacom's earnings? Absolutely not. I mean they could protect their copyrights with a simple injunction and a token payment to cover legal fees. But no, they've got to go all SCO and look for a billion dollar settlement.

And for that sort of money, you have to suspect that they're after more than just getting their stuff removed. I don't know whether it's just greed, dislike of Google or that they want to destroy YouTube. But I have to say that I don't really care.

As far as I'm concerned, Viacom's IP isn't worth one billion dollars of anyone's money and for them to win would be a serious miscarriage of justice. IMHO, YMMV and IANAL; but if TFA wants to know who's side I'm on, then that's who, and that's why.

Now if Viacom want to drop the amount they're suing for to something that makes sense in this parallel universe, then I might change my mind. Otherwise, Go Google!

Re:Well Exactly!

[InfoVore]

Absolutely not. I mean they could protect their copyrights with a simple injunction and a token payment to cover legal fees. But no, they've got to go all SCO and look for a billion dollar settlement.

And for that sort of money, you have to suspect that they're after more than just getting their stuff removed.

And like SCO, their real goal isn't to remove their copyrighted works from the hands of others. Their real goal is to force Google into a settlement that leeches off a steady stream of cash from Google. I'm sure that along the way they will hint to Google that they would consider dropping the lawsuit if Google licensed their copyrighted content for use on YouTube. They will put on some bizarre restrictions that will make the cable companies happy. The Billion Dollars is just the opening high bid.

If Google is smart (like IBM in the SCO case), they won't bite and they will let their lawyers drag it out until the bitter end.

-I.V.

Re:Well Exactly!

[Oligonicella]

"Their real goal is to force Google into a settlement that leeches off a steady stream of cash from Google."

Just like Google is leeching a steady stream of cash off of their products. Unfair, how?

Re:Well Exactly!

[NickFortune]

Imagine a store selling stolen televisions for dirt cheap on the high street. Millions of them. Even if they claim to have bought it in the first place from their clients before reselling it to their other clients, are they lawfully doing legal business?

First of all, you'll notice that I'm not arguing that no law has been broken. Secondly, theft is a different crime, and different laws apply.Thirdly the situation is not comparable; if your high street store is selling a copy of my television, and I still have the fully functional original, then I'm probably not going to get too bent out of shape over it. Doubly so if they're selling tiny low qality copies of my television.

Do the 1% (or less) of the masses, have a right to deny the artist (or their agent) their means of livelihood,

You know I'm trying to imagine someone saying "Dude! No way am I buying the next season of CSI on DVD. Not when YouTube has five minutes from the middle of a random episode in all its grainy, compressed, low-res glory". I can't see it happening, somehow.

I say, slap them with a billion here, and many more billions to come.

Right! Because they... because... You know, now I think on it, you never did get around to making the case as to why that figure was even remotely justified, You just rehashed some tired old RIAA trolls, rolled out a couple of sloppy, emotive analogies, and then dropped in your opinion as if it logically followed.

Sorry, no sale.

Re:That's like asking...

[teh_chrizzle]

that's an excellent point... whom in your opinion would the allies be?

Re:Viacom is right, google is wrong CLEAR TO ME

[Nom du Keyboard]

but this is pretty clear cut

What's clear to me is that, if they could, Viacom and the rest of the industry would like to charge you every single time you ever watched a piece of their content. They haven't managed to yet devise a successful system to accomplish this (remember DIVX DVD's, or RCA SelectVision videodiscs that actually wore out on use), but they have never given up on this dream. And these kind of lawsuits are just more small steps along the path to the Utopia of having full control over every second of music, and every frame of film forever.

Re:That's like asking...

[iamacat]

Godwin!

It is not google's right

[caywen]

The silliest arguments I have been reading are things like "Viacom benefits from YouTube, therefore Google isn't doing anything wrong" and "the copyright holders can request to have the stuff removed, so what's the big deal?"

It's not Google's right to index/distribute/host copyrighted content without consent. They want an opt-out model for copyright holders rather than opt-in, which is pretty shady.

BTW, I don't buy for 1 second that a company with that much brainpower, cash, and tech prowess can't prevent copyrighted videos from entering their system. They should ask CNET how they prevent pirated software from entering Download.com.

what you mean is...

[beinrhythm]

Imagine if I own a parking garage. I'm an innocent small business owner with no knowledge of investigative police work. Yet I am being sued because some moron parked a stolen car in my garage (which according to good business practices has an open-door policy). Perhaps you want to arrest the well mannered Ethiopian man who parks your cars as well? No worries, he's a friend of mine, and I shall bail him out faster than you can say "Viacom Is A Senseless Money Grabbing You Know What"...

Re:what you mean is...

[Seumas]

Don't be so naive and ridiculous. Youtube and Napster became huge because of the illegitimate content that was traded over them. Turning a blind eye and claiming "oh noes, we can't do anything about what's going on with our own services!" until they became huge and sold out for millions and billions to legitimate companies is exactly what they both did.

If it were not for the illegitimate content, they would never have acquired the enormous number of eyeballs and accounts on their services which is what, in turn, drove them to be in demand by the corporations that took them over.

Re:what you mean is...

[QRDeNameland]

Youtube and Napster became huge because of the illegitimate content that was traded over them.

While I will grant you the point about Napster, I don't think it necessarily applies to YouTube. YouTube is at best good for short clips, whether copyrighted or not, not so much for anything full-length. Everything I've ever watched on YouTube is either video that the creator explicitly wanted to be there (promotional stuff for bands, etc.) or short clips from TV shows, that while technically infringing, is not any huge threat to the market for the real show and probably even works as promotion, at least IMHO. People who want to "steal TV" are getting it from BitTorrent, not YouTube.

YouTube became a phenomenon because it was the first popular way for people to share short video clips, not as vector to share copyrighted content. Yes, some copyrighted content does get shared, but I really don't see that as the *primary* reason for YouTube's rise, as opposed to Napster where I can't really make that argument.

Re:what you mean is...

[mysidia]

Unlike Napster, Youtube has copyright compliance policy. Youtube removes infringing content when requested by the copyright holder, and users' accounts can be suspended, which is a meaningful way of removing content if it is found that it was illegally posted.

Therefore, Youtube may enjoy some of the DMCA safe harbor protections, where Napster clearly did not satisfy the requirements to enjoy those protections.

Remember... it's not Youtube that posts offending content, it is some users of youtube.

Do you think DSL/broadband providers like Verizon be sued for damages, and ordered to cease all transmission of copyrighted material over their network, because what made broadband popular might have been the ease with which people could download illegal electronic copies of DVDs [without a proper license to the movies]?

How can you prove that it is "illegal" content which made Youtube popular? Can you show that the owners of the majority of content that is viewable are really harmed by youtube exposure?

Youtube is great for short clips, but it's more suitable for previews -- it is not high enough quality to satisfy someone watching for longer than 10 minutes, and most users aren't allowed to upload videos longer than 10 minutes.

I think in the unlikely event, you see part of a commercial movie you like on youtube, I think you're more likely to buy the real thing in the future. (In other words, one expects to see a positive effect on the market for the content -- how does a 10 minute preview hurt the content maker, again?... Only if the viewer discovers they HATE the movie after watching the preview, and maybe they would have bought it otherwise, just to try it and see if it was a cool movie.)

Re:what you mean is...

[elrous0]

short clips from TV shows, that while technically infringing, is not any huge threat to the market for the real show and probably even works as promotion

I would like to second that myself. While I don't condone YouTube "stealing" copyrighted content, I can personally attest that it has piqued my interest in several shows that I might otherwise have missed (that I then ended up watching on regular TV).

Just the other day I was watching some old "Six Million Dollar Man" and "Bionic Woman" clips and it made me realize that these have actually held up remarkably well (I thought they would be totally cheesy after all these years). It made me want to go out and buy the DVD's. Unfortunately, they're still not available on DVD in the U.S. (what's up with THAT?).

Re:Whose side?

[TodMinuit]

Once they're broadcast it over free television, they're not allowed to restrict or charge for it again

WOW! I didn't know we could come up with laws out of our ass!

I deem it illegal to speak the word "flauga". So shall it be written, so shall it be done!

DMCA++

[Castar]

One of the scariest things that might come out of this is an "upgrade" of the DMCA. I've been reading the stories about the lawsuit, and it's really bizarre to see a tech company defending the DMCA and a content company saying it's a bad law.

Despite the fact that Viacom pushed for the adoption of the DMCA against the tech community's wishes, they're now claiming that it's *too nice* to copyright violators. Since it makes them issue takedown notices and limits the liability of hosting providers, they hate it in the YouTube scenario. They want a new law that doesn't even require takedown notices and instead forces hosting providers to actively police their content for violations - something that's obviously unworkable.

I really hope they fail with this, but it's probably too much to ask. If they win, all content hosts will be in big trouble, and if they lose the entertainment industry will push for a law that will let them win. A scary situation...

Re:Falling for the *IAA Cool-Aid

[Stonehand]

What happened to "Fair Use"? If there's a relevant passage in a book, can I not quote it? Is Viacom complaining about entire episodes or just small portions. For example, if there's a bit about John Stewart ripping on D. Chaney, I don't see the difference between that and quoting a Shakespeare soliloquy (well... one is written better...)


Entire. And uploading content to a popular public network is wide-scale distribution and public performance. "Fair use" has some limits, you know -- it's not a blanket license to do anything so long as you're not directly charging money, despite the fact that many Slashdotters think otherwise. Go see Stanford's site on it.

Besides, if it's a good bit, wouldn't I want to see more? Isn't that free advertising?

It's not really legal to rip the fourth consecutive hamburger out of the hands of a morbidly obese stranger and throw it on the floor, either, even if it's good for them.

Re:I'd agree except for one thing

[Mr2001]

What makes you think Google/YouTube is actively policing their site for porn clips, rather than responding to the clips being flagged by users who stumble across them?