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Hummer Greener Than Prius?
J adds:
The Prius's mediocre cost-per-mile is due mainly to CNW Research assigning the car a short expected lifetime: 109,000 miles. Nobody knows where this number comes from because CNW has not published details about its derivation. If a car will not last very long, then of course its energy cost per mile is high.
Back in July 2006, when CNW's study "Dust to Dust" had just been published (and which remains, unchanged, the original source for today's news), I emailed its president, Art Spinella:
Hello,
I'm with the tech news and discussion site Slashdot.org. One of our readers submitted a story about your Dust to Dust study.
According to Wikipedia, the Prius comes with a 150,000 mile warranty in California and a few other states; 100,000 elsewhere.
On p. 21 and p. 40 of your report I see that you estimate the average Prius will be "removed from the streets... and sent for disposal" at 109,000 miles. Can you explain how you arrived at this figure?
Thank you.
I did not receive a reply.
My question was about the cost-per-mile denominator; here's another critique questioning the numerator.
The question is what type of eneregy is used, and how much is producted from the energy source. Automobiles are a lot more energy effecient then say a human. But they give off polution that is less "green" or more difficult for the environment to handel.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Oh man, How many times do we need to go over the flawed assumptions and conclusions from the CNW Marketing analysis.
First, it incorrectly assumes that hybrid batteries are not recycled. In reality, Toyota has very successful recycling program, including a $200 bounty on Prius batteries.
Second, it is interesting that TFA mentions the Scion xB. Yet it fails to note that the CNW report data on the xA and xB don't make any sense. They are built on the same assembly line, have the same powertrains, only differ in weight by 50 lbs or so, and have similar efficiency (~35mpg), yet the CNW study shows the lifetime energy use of these vehicles to differ by 50 percent. How's that work?
Third, the CNW report makes really bad assumptions about where the bulk of lifecycle energy use occurs (eg manufacturing vs operation).
In short, it's misinformed at best and is more likely an intentional greenwash to assuage SUV owner dissonance in a post 9/11 world.
Disclaimer: I drive a biodiesel powered Jetta TDI, not a hybrid.
TFA claims that the prius costs $3.25 per mile over the course of 100,000 miles. The car must therefore cost $325,000 to own over the lifetime of the car. That sounds pretty impossible to me. I think somebody miscounted a zero when they were doing the math.
-- Knowledge shared is power lost. -- Aleister Crowley
Ok, big guy.
Who's ever heard of a Prius lasting 300k miles?
I could name you at least ten people driving a GM vehicle with over 300k on it.
Link
Art Spinella
President
CNW Marketing Research, Inc.
...
Mr. Spinella served as director of the Nissan USA account for Bob Thomas and Associates Public Relations in Redondo Beach, CA where he wrote speeches for the company's Japanese president and was responsible for new-product introductions and business-story placements.[/end]
And that's just from plugging their President's name into Google.
Maybe you didn't look very hard?
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
I was figuring this out a while back. If you keep your Prius for 100,000 miles at about 50mpg that is 2,000 gallons of gas. At $3.00/gal that's $6,000 in fuel. If a none Hybrid gets even 25 mpg (mine gets 30+) that's 4,000 gallons of gas or $12,000. So the Prius saves you $6,000 in gas and costs about $10,000 more than a comparable non-hybrid. I think I'll pass.
If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people
I came to that conclusion when I did a calculation of the energy saved by turning off my computer when I wasn't at work. It's amazing how many people leave them on all night to save minor hassle (I know sometimes there good reasons, but not for most cases where I see it).
I worked out turning my one work computer off as I leave the office keeps about 1 ton of CO2 per year out of the atmosphere (workings below), plus an amount of mercury and other pollution, assuming the electricity here comes from coal. It takes 100 gallons of gasoline to produce 1 ton of CO2. Please correct me if I'm wrong
0.140 * 123 * 52 * 2.3 = 2059lb
therefore 2059 lb is produced by around 106 gallons of gasoline.
That's about how much I'd save if I had a Prius (I do ~8000 miles/year). Sure, many people do more, and have more efficient computers, but it puts it in perspective.
I have a Prius with 46,000 miles it. I average 52MPG. Gas costs $3.13 today. Here are my total costs:
Purchase: $26,000 or so. That's 56.5 per mile.
Gas: 6 per mile.
Oil: 0.5 per mile.
Tires: 1 per mile.
TOTAL: 64 per mile, so far.
If I threw the thing away today, and bought a new one (which I'm not likely to do, so don't check my dumpster), that would still be 64 per mile. Assuming it will last 250,000 miles, like the rest of my Toyotas, the cost will be WAY lower.
I've got a 1989 Nissan 240SX that has about 320k on it. The head's been rebuilt twice, once at ~120k and once at ~240k. Bottom end is bone stock. It burns a little oil (I think it's just valve guides) but it pulls as hard as it ever did, which isn't all that hard since it has a truck motor in it.
I've got a 1981 Mercedes 300SD that I crashed, much to my chagrin, but it's repairable. Also about 320k miles, no engine work ever, runs like a champ. I've done some electrical on it and replaced the glow plugs.
What I'm driving now (I'm getting rid of the nissan, which has race suspension so I can't drive it around here, and possibly ditching the MBZ too, but possibly fixing it) is a 1993 Subaru Impreza. It's got about 250k mi, no engine work, runs like a CHAMP. And that's an engine with 9.5:1 compression, even. But then the mercedes is 22:1 before the 11 psi from the turbo...
But anyway what I really wanted to chip in with here is that my Subaru has a timing belt, but it also has a non-interference motor (all SOHC subaru motors are non-interference AFAIK.) The others have chains, and that's nice, but I don't really mind having a belt since if it breaks, the only thing that happens is I have to realign the crank and cams when I put the next one on.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
That's insane. My 2004 Prius is already about to hit the 100,000 mile mark, and its nowhere near dying. There are reports (see other /. replies) of first-generation Priuses (Prii?) already over the 200,000 mile mark. I wonder if even a single consumer-use Hummer has hit that yet?
/ pgr_e.pdf]Prius Green Report[/url] that shows their analysis of the environmental impact of the Prius compared to an equivalent gas car (I believe they used their own Corolla,) over a 100,000 km (not mile,) lifespan. It doesn't say they only expect it to last 100,000 km, just that if you destroy the car at that point, what the impact is. It covers material production (mining, refining, etc, which would include the Nickel problem,) vehicle production, driving, maintenance, and disposal. The Prius is considered 'cleaner' with regard to CO2 emissions at about the 20,000 km mark. I'm sure the Hummer would be long blown out of the water in this comparison.
Unless they're willing to share their reasoning for 'expected life', then their arbitrary choice is bull-crap.
Toyota has a document called the [url=http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/k_forum/tenji/pdf
Now, if you convert an original diesel H1 Hummer to run on vegetable oil (a 'greasel' conversion,) then it becomes nearly as clean as a Prius for all categories OTHER than CO2. (Biodiesel and veggie oil conversions both have a 'lifecycle' CO2 emission about 60% less than petroleum diesel, but even that isn't enough to make an H1 emit less CO2 than a Prius.)
Another non-functioning site was "uncertainty.microsoft.com."
The purpose of that site was not known.
Appendix B: An invitation to drive a XEBRA electric car
Appendix E: Some spam about a psychology professor and techniques for memorization.
Appendix UU: Cartoons
Appendix BBB: The lyrics to 90 Pounds SUV
There's more common sense at the Time Cube