Popular HD DVD Disc Hits a Snag

An anonymous reader writes "Following weeks of headlines touting strong sales for Blu-ray discs, rival next-gen format HD DVD looked like it had its own success story in the making with this week's HD DVD release of the cult hit 'Children of Men.' The disc recieved a stellar review at High-Def Digest, and went on to out-sell the most popular Blu-ray discs on Amazon. But now comes word of apparent incompatibility issues with the Xbox 360 HD DVD player, with some (but not all) consumers reporting that even multiple returns of the disc are unplayable on the format's leading playback device."

Comments

What's old is new again

[Anonymous Coward]

A lot of 1st and 2nd generation DVD players had occasional trouble with some DVD titles. Given the complexity of something like DVD, HD-DVD or BluRay it's really to be expected. Both the hardware and software is complex enough, and many Slashdoters know the difficulty of getting both new hardware and software to work together properly.

Re:What's old is new again

[dAzED1]

yeah, I agree. It has to be really hard for a group of people to agree to a standard, and then stick to it. Especially when MS is involved.

Re:What's old is new again

[Half a dent]

My first DVD player refused to play The Matrix properly when it was released (quite common at the time). IIRC this was due to an interactive feature (follow the White Rabbit?) not being compatible with the firmware version of the player, looks like a similar story here.

Re:What's old is new again

[walt-sjc]

So the question now is, can the people buying the movie get their money back? I know that most stores will not let you return opened music / videos / software - only exchanges for the same exact thing in case of bad media.

Re:What's old is new again

[SirMeliot]

Yep I had that too.

In the UK Woolworths sold a Samsung DVD player which was I think the first sub £200 DVD player you could buy in the high street. They sold a ton of these and were very good about taking them back again when they wouldn't play the Matrix.

IIRC early PS2s didn't care too much for the Matrix either.

Re:What's old is new again

[ncohafmuta]

Perhaps the DVD player was IN the matrix, and so as to protect itself from being discovered by the humans, and giving them too much information, refused to play.
Seems pretty logical to me.

-Tony

Re:What's old is new again

[dAzED1]

apparently, the mods today don't like sarcasm that has a point. Lets try again.

MS is part of the group that created the HD-DVD standard. They were not part of the group that made the DVD standard. Titles that had problems with the DVD standard initially either were not from groups associated with the DVD standard, or they were stupid.

Point is, I don't care if some DVD titles had problems with early DVD players. That is completely unrelated to whether or not it is ridiculous that MS can't follow the standard they helped create. Is MS-bashing cliche'? Sure. Does that mean that it isn't dumb that this is happening? No.

Re:What's old is new again

[jon_joy_1999]

apparently, the mods today don't like sarcasm that has a point. Lets try again.

MS is part of the group that created the HD-DVD standard. They were not part of the group that made the DVD standard. Titles that had problems with the DVD standard initially either were not from groups associated with the DVD standard, or they were stupid.

Point is, I don't care if some DVD titles had problems with early DVD players. That is completely unrelated to whether or not it is ridiculous that MS can't follow the standard they helped create. Is MS-bashing cliche'? Sure. Does that mean that it isn't dumb that this is happening? No.

first off. this isn't sarcasm that has a point. this is MS bashing without any facts, which makes you look stupid in my eyes.
I don't care if this gets modded down, that's the truth.
I am sick and tired of people jumping to conclusions without all of the facts.
FTA "We've contacted both Microsoft and Universal, but have not yet received any official word on whether it is a hardware problem, a software problem, or both." which I interpret as "Microsoft and Universal have nfc what's going on" note: Microsoft AND Universal.
so it's not just Microsoft in this game. please hold your bashing until after there is a declared winner.

Re:What's old is new again

[EtherMonkey]

Given the complexity of something like DVD, HD-DVD or BluRay it's really to be expected.

So, in other words, it's ok for me to pay $400 for a new, standards-certified, HD-DVD player and then $30.00 each for HD-DVD-labeled movies, but I shouldn't expect them to work together? And because I've probably owned the HD-DVD player for several weeks/months before coming to this sad realization, and because I obviously need to open the shrink wrap on the HD-DVD movie before attempting to play it, I cannot recover any of the money I've paid for this premium, standards-organization-certified, combination of player and media?

Well, at least now that I own the physical media and therefore have legal license to play the movie, I can legally download a working, albeit lower-quality copy off the Internet. Oh wait, that's still illegal.

Eventually, all the crap that the entertainment companies go through to implement copy protection, (a.k.a. DRM), is going to wind up frustrating even the most steadfast consumers of legally-aquired recordings, and they will be driven to pirate downloads as a matter of survival.

It only hurts the honest.

[bigtangringo]

Meanwhile, pirates have probably ripped the disc and made it available online.

No good deed goes unpunished.

Re:ah DRM

[PitaBred]

too weak and you can get anything to play them.

Man, it SUCKS when I want to play my media on a device I own, and it actually does it without me having to jump through hoops!

What do you bet it's the copy protection scheme...

[jhfry]

that broke.

I hope it is, as that might finally make these coalitions focus on developing the better technology for delivering the content instead of protecting it.

It's not worth the risk to release a format that is encumbered with complex copy protection schemes. They WILL get broken, and they WILL cause problems for consumers.

Bug or Feature?

[TheMeuge]

Well - the industry has realized that marketing expensive HD-DVD players is a nightmare, when an Xbox can do that and so much more at a much lower price. Making HD-DVD content unplayable on the Xbox is just another logical step (they have they own special logic). So the question is this - is it a bug, or a feature?

Re:Cult hit?

[Conception]

Because it was a British movie released in 2006 to film festivals and not a Hollywood style blockbuster?

Not just XBox 360 Player that has problems...

[TheNetAvenger]

Not just XBox 360 Player that has problems...

I know it is wild to assume that SlashDot would not mention this part, but it appears that some Toshiba based drives also have problems with this Disc.

PS. I hate the HD-DVD DRM as much as everyone else, but if the DRM was to blame it would NOT be failing at the DRIVE level and would be failing at the player level where the DRM is processed.

Re:Not just XBox 360 Player that has problems...

[TheNetAvenger]

Isn't the XBOX drive a re-branded Toshiba drive? If so, that would indeed make a whole lot of sense.


At the initial launch of the players they were all Toshiba, but I have no idea if MS has acquired any other suppliers since the launch. Also the model used by MS could be different even if they are all Toshiba; hence, why some users are not having problems and others are.

This could also be as simple as a defective Disc that borders on the readbility requirements for a HD-DVD. Like others have mentioned, when DVD was new, there were a lot of issues because of problems in the Disc manufacturing that were marginal for some players.

Less issues with HD-DVD then Blu-ray

[mrycar]

As an owner of both Blu-ray and HD-DVD, I have found less issues with the HD-DVD format then Blu-ray. On my Blu-ray devices (samsung and LG) I have had issues with Crank and Speed. On the Xbox 360, no issues experienced. I have played Children of men in both my living room and bedroom xboxen with no issues. Checking blu-ray forums shows many disgruntled blu-ray owners. Personally, I dislike either format and would, and would do direct download of HD, if there was a thing as high-speed network connectivity where I live. disgruntled blu-ray owner.

Re:Less issues with HD-DVD then Blu-ray

[flynt]

I have had issues with Crank and Speed.

There are clinics to help you with that.

Re:Less issues with HD-DVD then Blu-ray

[ivan256]

If I were to say that, then yes. You should assume I'm full of shit.

At least that's the default position I take when reading user-posted comment on the internet... People are full of shit until they demonstrate otherwise.

Re:Another nail in the coffin for HD-DVD...

[SatanicPuppy]

They're both going to lose to digital distribution once the telecoms get off their asses, so it's kind of a moot point. I think half the push toward HD is fueled by the content providers desire to make the files bigger and harder to download.

Re:Too bad the movie sucks

[garcia]

Can't believe the trailer compared it to Blade Runner. The King Crimson / Pink Floyd references were cute tho.

I agree! The current events overtones with the Homeland Security and illegal immigrant killings/deportations were only for the benefit of attracting those in the reviewer community that hate the US' current administration. Their plan worked and it got rave reviews.

I saw it opening weekend because I needed to get out of the house but other than that it wasn't worth the $8.75/ticket I paid. The MPAA wonders why piracy is popular? If they think that people want to continue to pay nearly $20 (for a couple) to see politically motivated bullshit with horrendous and unnecessary violence then they have their heads further up their asses than I knew.

If there's absolutely nothing else to see at the rental place, I suggest watching it. Otherwise you're better off going to the back room and getting some cheesy 70s porn on VHS.

Re:recieved-received

[norminator]

'I' Before 'E' except after 'C' and when sounding like "Eh" and in "Neighbor" and "Weigh"

and on weekends and holidays and all throughout May
And you'll always be wrong, no matter what you say!

--Brian Regan

Why can't the industry make things compatible?

[dpbsmith]

These "title-A-won't-play-on-brand-B" stories are common. But why? This is essentially a phenomenon of the DVD era. Or, rather, there are three phases to the history:

Phase A: Pre-recordable-CD. Everything worked. An individual cassette jamming in a player? Sure. A bad pressing or a warped LP? It happened. A bad CD? Prior to copy protection, I encountered _maybe_ one in fifteen years of buying them. But an across the board disaster, like the latest hit title failing to play at all in a popular brand of player? Never.

Phase B: Media incompatibility with recordable media. I've never seen a CD (one bearing the Compact Disc logo, not a copy-protected not-quite-CD) fail to play. But I've frequently encountered the burned CD-R that plays on some players but not all. The CD-RW that says it will play on "most modern" players, etc. And DVD's, hey, the instructions for burning System Restore disks on the computer my wife just bought say--WITHOUT EXPLANATION--only to use DVD+R's, "even if your DVD writer is capable of burning other formats."

Phase C: Popular, commercial entertainment titles on mass-produced non-recordable media that fail to play in large numbers of popular, commercial players.

Why is this happening? Are the vendors now just giving lip service to standards, and are unable to produce a title that will play on everything unless they procure everything and test on everything?

Heaven help me if we ever have digital motor oil.

Re:Why can't the industry make things compatible?

[illegalcortex]

And DVD's, hey, the instructions for burning System Restore disks on the computer my wife just bought say--WITHOUT EXPLANATION--only to use DVD+R's, "even if your DVD writer is capable of burning other formats."

You may already know this, but the reason why is error correction. The DVD+R format is far superior to the DVD-R format when it comes to error correction. So if you get a scratch on a backup disc, you are much more likely to not lose anything if it's a DVD+R. It's probably they didn't want to explain error correction in an instruction manual written for people who would have just skimmed over it anyway. Any explanation for the masses would have just boiled down to "it's better, trust us."

Re:Why can't the industry make things compatible?

[greed]

Is there really a difference in the error correcting codes written to +R and -R?

The important difference is buffer underrun recovery. The +R blanks have a time-code in the groove that's pre-cast into the polycarbonate. -R blanks don't. So, in the event of a buffer underrun, DVD+R can accurately locate the last-time-written position and resume burning without a gap. DVD-R will have to have a gap, just like CD-R with buffer-underrun protection.

For .ISO-type pre-burned image streaming, this isn't a big deal; pick a speed where "Disc At Once" won't be too fast for your hard disk, and there won't be a gap on -R and +R won't win you anything.

But for backup programs, which make things up as they go along, they often underrun. DVD-R takes forever to re-synchronize, and the backup takes much, much longer as a result--and may not read in a DVD-ROM drive if you need it as an emergency boot disk (where facilities exist yadda yada). DVD+R will re-synchronize very quickly.

The gaps also result in a loss of usable disc; with Retrospect for Macintosh, I get about 2.7-3.2 GB on a DVD-R, and 4.3 GB on DVD+R. (There's checksums and catalog data eating up the remaining .4 GB of DVD+R.) That, and 10-15 minutes to write a +R vs. nearly an hour for -R (in an 8X nominal burner), means: Video goes to -R, and Data goes to +R.

Re:Why can't the industry make things compatible?

[illegalcortex]

Is there really a difference in the error correcting codes written to +R and -R?

Yes.
From http://adterrasperaspera.com/blog/2006/10/30/how-t o-choose-cddvd-archival-media/

As I said earlier, DVD-R sucks for data preservation for three reasons: inferior error correction, inferior 'wobble' tracking, and the fact its data writing methods look like an un-needed halfway point between CD-R and DVD+R. The wobble tracking I shall explain first, then the error corrections method, then the specifics of ATIP/pre-pit/ADIP optimum power settings.

For a CD/DVD burner to track where it is on the disc, it uses three things: the 'wobble' of the data track (where it actually wobbles back and forth instead of in a straight line) to tell where it is in the track, the position of the track to tell where it is on the disc, and some additional information on the disc to tell where the track (singular, as CDs and DVDs only have one track, and it is written in a concentric spiral) begins and ends.

This additional information on a CD-R is called the ATIP (Absolute Time In Pregroove), which contains how long the track is, where it begins, what the maximum and minimum writing speeds are, what formula dye it uses, who actually made it, optimum power control settings, and error correction data. The ATIP is stored as a frequency modulation in the wobble itself.

However, since the wobble changes subtly to encode data, it is impossible to use with the small size of tracks DVD requires, as electric noise in the laser pickup and wobbles introduced by the electric motor spinning the disc, these could easily be read as frequency changes in the real track itself.

On DVD-R, they tried to solve the problem with something called 'pre-pits' where spikes in the amplitude of the wobble appear due to pits fully out of phase with the rest of the track (ie, between two spirals of the track, where there is no data). This can be viewed as a simple improvement over CD-R as it makes it easier to track the wobble (since the wobble is constant except for the easy to detect and remove spikes).

Unfortunately, this method as one flaw: due to electric noise in the laser pickup, it would be very easy to miss the pre-pit (or read one that wasn't actually there) if the disc were damaged or spun at fast speeds. The time to read a pre-pit is 1T (roughly .0000000038th of a second), which even for a computer can be easy to miss. DVD-R traded hard to track frequency changes for hard to read wobble-encoded data.

On a DVD+R, however, they came up with a much better method. Instead of changing the frequency of the wobble, or causing amplitude spikes in the wobble, they use complete phase changes. Where CD-R's and DVD-R's methods make you choose between either easy wobble tracking or easy ATIP reading, DVD+R's method makes it very easy to track the wobble, and also very easy to encode data into the wobble. DVD+R's method is called ADIP (ADdress In Pre-groove), which uses a phase change method.

With ADIPs' phase changes, the direction of the wobble changes and continues on going in the exact opposite direction (ie, counter-clockwise to clockwise, or the reverse). For example, if the wobble was 'going up', the phase change causes it to instantly reverse direction start 'going down' no matter where it in the wobble cycle. The phase change is very easy to detect, and also continues for a set period (in this case, one 32T section of the track, or 32 times longer than the pre-pit method of DVD-R).

The state of the phase change (clockwise or counter-clockwise) encodes the individual bits in each block In essence, with the phase change method, not only do you have an easy way of tracking the wobble, but you now have an easy way of reading wobble-encoded data.

As I mentioned earlier, this wobble-encoded data includes error correction of wobble-en

Re:Too bad the movie sucks

[beckerist]

It was slow, but there were scenes where blood would splatter on the camera lens, and you literally watch a 7 minute, beautifully choreographed sequence with those same splatters on the lens the entire time. It's hard not to appreciate the work it must have taken for the producers to put it all together. Michael Caine is the MAN!

Back on topic: How hard would it be for MS to issue a firmware upgrade through the 360? To me, it seems like the hardware isn't going to (dramatically) change, and that a simple software/firmware upgrade should be all that's required for added functionality (ie: the "follow the white rabbit" schtick on the Matrix DVD...)

Re:Cult hit?

[Penguinisto]

Okay, that makes it go down just a bit easier, but still... I thought that in order to achieve a "cult" status, a movie/book/TV show/whatever had to have some or most of the following:

* A loyal fan base willing to spread it to firends and strangers alike, and willing to spend more than the usual amount of time on promoting it (e.g. "Star Trek" during the 1970's).

* Obscurity, or at least relative obscurity (see also "Rocky Horror Picture Show", before some jackass company released it on tape/DVD and ruined the whole thing forever).

* Independence in birth, thought, and/or most aspects of the film/book/etc that makes it stand away from the 'Mainstream' (e.g. "Night of the Living Dead").

* Longevity - it has to age a bit like fine wine before it can actually have a cult to follow it (e.g. "Equilibrium", which still kicks more ass than Chuck Norris IMHO, but has been out for years now).

IMHO, calling this flick a "cult" film kinda smacks of exploitation by marketing... but then again, maybe my semantics are just off? (I'm sincerely hoping not, but...)

/P

Another reason to avoid HD/BR disks.

[wiredog]

It seems, from reading through the forum postings, that some titles work, but the same title fails in a different drive, even if the drive is badged the same. Presumably the Xbox drives are made by different manufacturers and this is the source of the problem. Or possible the disks are pressed in different plants. Either way, that kind of inconsistency seems to be a good reason to avoid the whole thing.

Not HD-DVD's first embarrassment by far

[DumbSwede]

Not a surprise to those of us that have followed the Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD battle for a while. HD-DVD was rushed to market to compete with Blu-Ray. Their first significant demo in January of 2006 was an embarrassing failure with the disc failing to play. HD DVD Demo a Disappointment

It is amazing the HD-DVD camp hasn't folded yet. Listening to the HD-DVD fans it is clear that rabid hatred of SONY drives their insistence that HD-DVD will win in the end.

People where initially skittish of buy Blu-Ray until the Playstation-3 came out. People where initially skittish about buying a Playstation-3 until Blu-Ray prevailed (supply issues aside). As it becoming more and more clear Blu-Ray will win and win big (currently with a 4:1 sales ratio and GROWING) PS3 and Blu-Ray will now both feed into the success of the other. Sony took a gamble, but it appears to be one that will win big for them despite whatever people may think of their sales practices or DRM attempts.

I for one hope hatred of SONY doesn't keep HD-DVD alive -- I would like to only have to buy movies (any movie I want) in one HD format.

Re:Not HD-DVD's first embarrassment by far

[illegalcortex]

Personally, I have favored Blu-ray due to the higher capacity. What becomes popular as a movie standard will also drive what becomes popular as a computer peripheral standard. I'd rather do my backups/offline storage to a higher capacity media. Sony has pissed me off in their treatment of the PS3, but I don't hold that against Blu-ray in general.

But you have to admit, these are the same problems that happened with the first generation of DVD. There were certain discs that would blow up certain players. Manufacturers learned and they fixed them in the next generation. The xbox will probably be able to fix it via a firmware upgrade.

Claiming that this is somehow a harbinger of doom for HD-DVD is doing just what you are accusing the other side of doing. You are letting your rabid hatred of HD-DVD shape your interpretation of something that's just history repeating itself.

Re:Eagles HD-DVD has problems too

[Farmer Tim]

I have Eagles concert HD-DVD that doesn't play in xbox360 hd-dvd player either...

That's not a bug, it's a feature.

Chronos Blu-ray PS3 again

[whiteSanjuro]

The first pressing of Chronos on Blu-ray had a similar problem with the PS3, but no one found that newsworthy at the time...

Re:recieved-received

[illegalcortex]

Or oneiromancies. Or deficiencies and zeitgeist.

Or fancied, policies, conscience, prescient, ancient, efficiency, financier, glacier, society, caffeine, protein, Keith, Leith, Sheila, deindustrialize, reignite, being, seeing, keister, neither, obeisance, seize, sheikh, species, feisty, kaleidoscope, height, seismic, counterfeit, foreign, reveille, sovereign, heifer, leisure, atheist, onomatopoeia.

That rule is actually fairly misleading. The British one is a little better, but still has problems.

In all fairness...

[fyngyrz]

The PS3's Blue-Ray player will not play in HD unless you have a 1080p or 1080i capable display. Since many displays sold until very recently were 720p max, especially projector systems, this puts quite a "ding" in the experience of the PS3's Blue-Ray playback.

What the PS3 does for a system like that is drops back to 480p, which is for all intents and purposes the same as a standard DVD player running in progressive scan. Except that the disk cost $30 instead of $15, that is. These circumstances make the presence of a Blue-Ray player in the PS3 somewhat moot for those with 720p maximum systems.

Sony is of course well aware of this, and despite the recent revelation that the PS3 has a built-in scaler, none of the many updates since the machine was released addresses the problem.

There is a DRM-related agreement (or perhaps I should say conspiracy) with the entertainment industry that says that no component system will be allowed to output more than 720p, but 720p itself is allowed. Standing witness to this is Sony's own stand-alone player which has component out and the ability to do 720p without any problems.

So it isn't only Microsoft that has produced an incomplete or broken solution in the high definition disk arena; Sony's implementation isn't without its serious problems.

Re:In all fairness...

[fyngyrz]

What are you talking about? When have you ever seen a 720p native display refuse 1080i input?

About 2 minutes ago, in my Rec room. Infocus 5000, Firmware 753-0363-10, Brandware 753-0363-02, Bootcode 002-1082-00. That's what I'm talking about. You feed this thing 1080i and you get 1/2 vertical screen of bright green squish.

What does this mean? Well, that your complaint about being unable to watch a Blu-Ray movie on the PS3 due to lack of display support is completely bogus.

No, what it actually means is that you don't know what you're talking about, that there are 720-only capable displays out there, and that you didn't do any research before you shot off your ignorant mouth. For instance, one quick Google search turned up the problem at IGN, avforums, arstechnica, joystiq and many more, both user forums and more technical forums. So lets just drop the "it's not a problem" nonsense right now. It is a problem.

Re:In all fairness...

[xero314]

I HAVE a 5000, and it does NOT take 1080i and produce anything useful. You should contact Infocus Immediately since their spec claims 1080i compatibility and they have provided multiple updates for 1080i related issues such as 1080i image positioning is corrected and 720p and 1080i @ 50Hz sources sync and display correctly.

if there is some other infocus 5000 other than the SP5000 then I apologize. Just hate to see you having a faulty unit or Infocus making claims and updates for functionality that does not exist.

Re:Im still having problems with regular DVDs

[toleraen]

My laptop wont play them without skipping (drive is too slow? not enough RAM?)

might want to check if your dvd-rom is set to DMA mode...choppy dvd playback on computers can be caused by the ide channel being stuck in PIO mode. After doing help desk for a while that seemed to be the most common problem, assuming there aren't other major errors with the system. Fix here.

Re:ah DRM

[bealzabobs_youruncle]

This has nothing to do with it, it plays fine on my HD-A2 and my cubicle mates 360 add-on, most likely there were a bad batch of disk. You may now remove your tin foil hat.

The Matrix

[metamatic]

Actually, there was a fairly lengthy technical investigation, and it turned out that the Warner release of "The Matrix" was improperly mastered--it didn't actually meet the DVD standards.

Annoyingly, Warner didn't bother to remaster it, which is the main reason why I never bought the DVD. Warner have generally done a bad job of DVD mastering over the years--consider also the initial Kubrick DVDs, the continuing lack of widescreen releases of many Warner movies, the crappy cardboard packaging...

Re:The Matrix

[elrous0]

Actually, IIRC, the worst offender back in the early days of DVD was Polygram. Not only did their packaging suck, but quite a few of their titles (most notably "Kalifornia") simply wouldn't play on Toshiba DVD players or clones (because the Toshibas were strict about not playing improperly mastered discs).

Incidentally, for those who are interested, you can find a pretty good list of problematic early DVD's here.

Re:I saw the movie

[Moofie]

How did you get from "Person A didn't think this was a very good movie" to "Person A thinks art should never include any kind of political message" to "Person A is a torture advocate and probably eats babies"?

I mean, wow. That's a really impressive set of assumptions you've got there...

Re:Another nail in the coffin for HD-DVD...

[elrous0]

As opposed to Sony, the guys who put rootkits on their CD's and are complete control freaks about ANY attempt at putting homebrew on the PSP?

I am far from a huge MS fan, but I will admit to Western bias when it comes to the 360 vs. PS3. I don't want to see yet another generation completely dominated by annoying JRPG's and witless anime shit. It's not healthy for one country or region to have a 70%-80% videogame console market share. I'm perfectly happy to have the 360 and PS3 remain neck-and-neck. That way, whether you're a fan of Western or Japanese-style games, everyone wins.

As for HD-DVd vs. Blu-ray, I root for HD-DVD (against all odds these days). Allowing Sony dominance is ASKING for trouble (again, remember those rootkits?). Not only are they control freaks, but there is also a serious conflict of interest in a content-producing studio owning the rights to the means of distribution for EVERY OTHER studio as well.

Works fine for me

[ender-]

I picked up the Children of Men HD-DVD on the day it came out, and it played fine in my Xbox360.

Thankfully! I'm usually the sap who gets stuck with the crap that doesn't work. Maybe I had some good Karma built up that I wasn't aware of. :)