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Turkish Assembly Votes For Censoring of Web Sites
unity100 writes "CNN has some news about a recent development in Turkey where the Turkish assembly, totally out of line with Turkey's commitment to EU membership, has voted to have sites that 'insult to the founder of modern Turkey' censored from entire Turkish population. This, just about a month after the decision to censor YouTube was reached by the Turkish courts. 'On Thursday, lawmakers in the commission also debated whether the proposal should be widened to allow the Turkish Telecommunications Board to block access to any sites that question the principles of the Turkish secular system or the unity of the Turkish state -- a reference to Web sites with information on Kurdish rebels in Turkey.'"
Let's see how the EU responds to this. I wonder if they will do anything at all, or if they will be activ eabout it. I haven't follwed their actions much at all since I live in America, but I have hopes for it.
..question the principles of the Turkish secular system, and the unity of the Turkish state.
And I think the founder of modern Turkey is a turkey haha
Freedom of speech is pretty cool
I also question the principles of the American secular system, and i pretty much question the fuck out of everybody I see.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Actually, I take that back. China & the US would like to have free trade going into Europe, but not coming out. That would be silly.
Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?
Attaturk seems to have been one cool dude. What other nation of Muslims has in its Constitution that Islam must be kept out of the government? They owe that constitution to the man.
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
I know the US has some problems with free speech, but what the hell is wrong with Europe lately? For instance, Germany will soon be attempting to reintroduce legislation into the EU banning swastikas and Holocaust denial (Source: BBC). You can't have selective free speech!
People are getting confused. You should tolerate the idea of free speech; you don't have to like what people say, you don't even have to listen. It's the right to speak, not the right to be heard or listened to.
These laws, including the Turkish positions, would be like if the US suddenly enacted laws saying that no one can speak of the Confederacy in a positive light and made it illegal to say the Confederacy actually won. Everyone knows they didn't, but people still say it. Everyone with an IQ over 20 just laughs at them, though. I'd just laugh & ignore at anyone who denied the Holocaust -- you should too, Europe (Germany, Turkey, et all).
Surprisingly, at least in the Holocaust issue, England is one of the few countries that put up a fuss last time it came up (2005). The same England that's hell bent on monitoring every street corner. C'est bizarre.
I know it'd be really hard to perform an unbiased study on the subject, but I'd really like to know, once and for all, if censorship is a good thing for humanity. Such a study should, of course, be targetted at all sorts of facets of the basic question and not just the one; questions such as "at what point is censorship good and where is it bad for society."
In "free society" we generally abhor censorship. What people are afraid if is pretty obvious: that people will form opinions in opposition to current leadership. But are there societal health benefits? Is there something actually good about it?
They already deny genocide against Armenians, and jail anyone who protests, etc. Compared to that, this is minor.
Another point to consider is that there is growing dissatisfaction with the idea of joining the EU. Basically Turkey has made major, major changes to the law and its government in an effort to get into the EU, but so far the process has been stalled by EU member states who are understandably wary (for a number of reasons) about letting Turkey in. Because of this, many Turkish citizens are now increasingly adopting a "kiss off" attitude towards EU membership and the EU itself. Perhaps this move is another sign of the frustration... a defiant gesture, if you will.
-PxB
Armenian genocide
The Turkish government really, really doesn't want to talk about this. Bring it up too forcefully in Turkey and it can get you killed. So the subject is censored in Turkey, effectively enough that most of today's generation of Turks just can't believe that their great grandparents could have done anything so vile. I'd imagine that today's generation of Germans would have the same reaction if Germany hadn't been forced to face up to what the National Socialist German Workers Party did.
PBS did a pretty impressive special on the subject, available on DVD.
So... it's likely that the Turkish government will keep on censoring away. It's not like anyone's going to do anything effective about it. Sure, eventually they'll figure out that censoring the 'net is a fool's errand, but they'll kick that can down the road as long as they can. And even then, will enough Turkish citizens care enough to look?
Guys,
Europe has just different frame, we had a problem with nazi and see their followers are a danger that worth a bit of lmitation of free speach.
I dont think lot of people would be allow to praise the 911 terrorists in US, encourage killing americans and soldiers, spitting of the victims of 911.
but i can be wrong
We should respect the right of Turks to build their society in whatever way that they wish. The Turks are entitled to reject Western values, just as both the Chinese and the Indians have rejected Western values.
At the same time, we should terminate the current talks that will lead to Turkey becoming a member of the European Union (EU). We Westerners have every right to prohibit Turkey from becoming a member of the EU. The EU is a bastion of Western values, and we have a right to prevent those values from being contaminated by Turkish values or Islamic values.
The issue is not bigotry. The issue is respect. The Turks expect us to respect how they suppress human rights (by, for example, censoring web sites). We should respect them.
At the same time, they should respect our desire to maintain Western values. We should join Angela Merkel in blocking Turkey's becoming a member of the EU. We should condemn Washington for pressuring the EU into admitting Turkey.
The last 6 years has shown that Washington is incapable of formulating good foreign policy.
there is no such thing. In istanbul east meets east.
Read radical news here
For some reason I think the majority screwing over the minority and abusing their human rights isn't something that should be tolerated, much less respected.
Well (and that's an example, no country is a saint in this matter), the USA have been preaching on freedom and human rights for decades. It didn't prevent them to install and maintain bloody dictatorships in South America. And that, way before the USA "turned evil" and bashing the US became an olympic sport.
I do not think we (well, the West) have any right at all to interfere in Turkey or any other country.
Personally I don't think Turkey belongs to EU, and that's a matter for EU and Turkey, and no one else.
The rest, the internal Turkey matters as long as they stay out of EU, are their business and we have no right to mess with.
Does Europe truly want a theocracy sitting on their doorstep?
I think Europe would prefer a theocracy on their doorstep, then in their living room.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
Just what do you base this claim upon? Turkey is a democracy. It has its shortcomings. Care to get into an argument about a two-party stranglehold's effect on democratic processes?
Turkey is vehemently opposed to being forced to admit to Armenian genocide a century ago. At the same time, as many Turkish journalists have pointed out, France's stand against Turkey's admission into the EU because of this is certainly lest than virtuous, given that they have never owned up to their own more recent history in Algeria.
The PKK is a group recognised by the US State Department as a terrorist organisation. After its leader Abdullah Ocalan, was captured by Turkish Special Forces in Kenya, many governments and groups protested his trial as unfair. The main reasons for this was that the trial was held in the Ankara State Security Court, which is ruled by a three judge panel in which a military officer is included as one judge, and that after his arrest, Ocalan was unable to be reached by attorneys for ten days. Compare and contrast these judicial flaws with the obscene US treatment of detainees, and the Guantanamo Show Trials in which any defendant allegations of torture are considered classified information?
In regards to the YouTube incident mentioned; it was quickly ruled as an unconstitutional act by a Turkish court, and its import was greatly inflated in the Western media. Read a Turkish editorial on the matter:
Barin Kayaoglu, "Defending YouTube or Defending Atatürk?", Journal of Turkish Weekly, 17 March 2007
Try expanding your knowledge, instead of depending upon others' prejudices for you bigotry.
Rush Limbaugh is a perfect real world example of an oxycontinmoron
Without draconian measures such as this censorship, the gap between the religious people and the guardians of secularism would rapidly increase to the point where you could expect an Islamic revolution like the one in Iran.
People forget how Ataturk made the country secular - by excessive bloodshed and repression. The majority of the Turks never wanted to be secular and are still very much opposed to it. The relevant question is: do you allow your democracy to self-implode? Do you allow the election of a party that will eliminate democracy completely - not to mention freedom of speech, secularism etc
So don't judge too harshly - they are in a tight spot.
Of course their whole arrangement makes joining the EU any time soon very unlikely. This in turn gives them a sense of rejection which pushes the country towards Islamic government. If on the other hand the EU supports their fight for secularism, which takes from as limits on civil liberties, it is betraying its own principles. Not an entirely trivial situation.
Well, you don't seem to know much about turkey either. Turkey is probably one of the few countries were you will find the "liberals" siding along with the military powers.
Yes, Turkey is indeed secular and extremely western (depends a bit on what part of the west you compare it to) "thanks" to the efforts of the man who would be come known as ataturk, father turk, for his efforts to turn unite Turkey and turn it into a modern nation.
The problem is this, Turkey is NOT a united country by itself. One turk is NOT the same as another. This is one of the biggest problems with for instance immigration to the west. Those people that are looked down upon in western europe are looked down upon in Turkey as well. It is roughly like how a Hillbilly will be frowned upon in Amsterdam by the locals AND by any visiting New Yorkers.
Turkey however so far has remain united thanks to its military leadership that comes down like a ton of bricks on anyone who dares to take Turkey in an undesired direction. The EU problem is that the Turkey that has the most change to join is also in a very real sense a military dictatorship. If as the EU insists the military reduces its influence then Turkey might very well become an islamic state.
Remember the riots in France about banning headscarfs? Similar stuff happens all over europe usually at the level of should headscarfs be allowed to be worn by public officials, like for instance in the courtsmthe legal system should be impartial, and at least in most european countries judges and other officials are therefore NOT allowed to show any signs of religion or politics. Muslims being allowed to wear headscarfs is therefore a direct attack on western traditions. So what is the case in Turkey? Well, they are banned and the military makes sue that that remains to be the way because they know what secular means.
So yes, turkey is a modern secular state, BUT what the grandparent might have been referring too is that it seems that IF the people in Turkey had a choice that might not remain the case.
Turkey is a democracy, but only so long as the people vote for the "correct" path as laid down by the military. It therefore is also very much a dictarorship, just that in some peoples eyes, that the dictatorships policies are desirable.
Turkey is like a man standing behind you with a gun, forcing you to make love to beautifull sexy women for a living. Yes, you might like making love to beautifull sexy women for a living BUT there is still a man with a gun behind you telling you what to do.
Say that this case was true for an entire nation, would you therefore conclude that this nation is entirely hetero OR might that country go homosexual the moment the man with the gun is removed.
EU efforts might very well result in them creating another muslim nation right on their doorstep.
The US has a city called philidelphia (or something) wich I believe is usually regarded as the most liberal of cities, (by US standards). Imagine this as Istanbul. Now imagine that phili is the capitol of the US and that the pentagon is making sure that phili politics are US politics. The US would seem to be far more "modern" then it really is, it might even allow gay marriages and such.
BUT the US ain't really that modern, there is the backward Bible Belt.
The father of all turks was a great man, BUT his rule is enforced through force. The question is what would happen when you remove that force.
Tell me, do americans in places like New York or LA etc feel that gay marriages should be outlawed? Nonetheless they are. Same with Turkey, just because Istanbul is the face of Turkey doesn't mean the body agrees with it.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
There's one key difference between every item on that list and the Armenian genocide: we in the west are free to say that they happened or are happening. Since we are free to discuss them and their consequences, we can come to a consensus as to whether or not they are/were good things. See the prohibition on slavery, for example. That would never have been brought about if Wilberforce et al. hadn't been free to go around and tell people why he thought it was wrong.
It's a sad thing that the "moderators" seem to be chosen for their ignorance. Your post said absolutely nothing, it's so empty of meaning that it's not even wrong.
OTOH, the grandparent post was quite informative on the real issues regarding Turkey. The laws mentioned in the article are actually trying to protect Turkey from Islam extremism. Although it may seem that censorship is not exactly the best way to protect freedom, that was the intention of the Turkish legislators.
At this point, your inane comment has (+5) of which 70% "interesting" and 30% "insightful", while the GP has (+1) "insightful". OK, let's go to metamod...
they say "dont sell cress to a cress seller" in turkey.
i AM turkish. i am living in turkey for my whole life. i KNOW what it is like here.
there no such thing as "east meets west" exist. it was invented by government in order to make tourism advertisements abroad, and also put turkey's cause forward in european union application back in 1986-1987. Turgut Ozal, was the prime minister then.
again, there is no such thing, and in istanbul east meets east. nobody but the turkish believe in such a thing that "east meets west" exists. its just a hype make-believe.
Read radical news here
The US has a city called philidelphia (or something) wich I believe is usually regarded as the most liberal of cities
You misspelled "San Francisco."
First, not the majority of turkish people want islamic state. The percentage that wants it is around 20% of the voters, and rather an inflated number that is (due to election frauds in islamic locales), and that would probably translate to the entirety of the population (including non-voters) as kinda maybe 25%-30% at the most.
rest are divided among major groups like kemalists (ataturk nationalists), west supporters, (liberals, which generally have many stuff in common with kemalists, except in nationalistic matters like ataturk is a taboo or not, and freedom of speech related to that issue), a good deal of social democrats (which generally are almost transient with kemalists, since most of ataturk's proposed ideas and guidelines curiously coincides with social democracy, and the party he founded, chp, is a social democrat party for over around, say 70 or so years), extreme nationalists, which are basically right wing radicals, which are very considerable in numbers, but not on majority over any of the above groups.
the biggest groups are named "undecideds" in turkey.
these are people of mild composition, they dont want to mess with anybody or anything, want matters to be good and life normal, no crises, no stampede, economy in rails etc and such. they are generally approving of european values, becuse of humanitarian approaches (we are not talking about stupid extreme left wing idiots here, were talking Danton, Erasmus, Voltaire, Rousseau humanism & liberalism - though this population rarely knows these writers's names), quality of life in europe in particular. (thinking that europeans must be doing some things right). and they want in in european union, nomatter who says what. extreme right wing nationalists, islamic groups, and even portion of the kemalists who are disullisioned with europe and dont want to get into euo anymore dont even add up to the number of this "silent crowd".
these "undecideds", ironically, are the people whose votes decide who gets in power at any given time.
in the last elections, they were extremely disillusioned by the corruption earlier parties and governments exhibited, and some were impressed with the seemingly considerable work that was done by the people in municipial duties (who founded the akp later, and tayyip erdogan, current pm was the mayor of istanbul, islamic), so they said exactly like this; "lets try those islamists this time".
this was a sentence which was actually said by those people in debates, among family, friends and such.
and they voted for them. and voila, 38% votes for islamic party, and thanks to the election system that twists the votes SO absurd, they get 95% of the chairs in the assembly.
curiously, islamists also want to get into the eu. many fragments of islamic community thinks that it will be much too easier to spread islamic influence when turkey is in eu. and they are right, from what we see from the proceedings of a minority islamic population is able to succeed in netherlands, even in this state.
hence when in power, islamic party (akp) have pushed for eu reforms with unseen vigor in any prior government. and passed many laws to eu guidelines. as in all matters that comes too fast, too low a number of these laws are actually being practiced.
ah, i forgot one segment. that is the military.
it is a MAJOR segment of the population. in that it holds armed power, and also in that there are explicit items in constitution that ordains the army "guardianship of secular democratic regime".
and for the last 80 years, they have been EXACTLY doing that.
back around 1960, an islamically inclined prime minister, Adnan Menderes, and his then center-right and extreme-right composured party (demokrat parti, which is curiously the party that the roots and many members of the akp or other right/islamically inclined parties come from), have gone rather awkward, started censoring the media in the wake of increasing critisizm for failure, BANNE
Read radical news here
The difference is, besides just one death, is that these people were fighting to be included. At no point was there a threat of civil war or the break-up of France. The immigrants just wanted to stop being considered second-class citizens. They want to belong. Lots of mayhem and chaos for the cameras, but most of it was insured and nothing permanent was damaged.
If Turkey breaks up, we're talking the attempted formation of an independent Kurdistan, which traditionally spans parts of Turkey, Iraq, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Iran and Syria. You'd be looking at possible land grabs by many of those countries, as they all make "traditional" border claims. Paybacks for the Armenian massacre of 1915 could escalate the whole area into a bloodbath that makes Southern Iraq look like a safe-haven.
I'm not saying everything in Europe is all laid back and nothing ever happens, I'm just saying they've evolved more into a bureaucracy than anything else. They're much more inclined to a "just relax, let's talk and we can work things out" attitude than most everyone in Asia Minor.
It'll be a shock, but give it another 50 years and I think becoming a member of the E.U. will be the best thing that happened to Turkey since the formation of the secular state by the Atatürk.
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.