Getting High-Quality Audio From a PC

audiophile writes "Just because it's a PC doesn't mean it can't output good-sounding audio. In the same vein as specialty A/V products, you can find PC-based A/V systems with extensive audio processing and step-up performance specifications, including Signal-to-Noise ratio, which can make a significant difference when using the analog outputs. Media center manufacturer Niveus shares tips for getting high-quality audio from a PC."

Comments

Nice, just wish I could afford the equipment...

[xystren]

Isn't that how it usually goes?

Cheers,
Xyst
FP??

Re:Nice, just wish I could afford the equipment...

[davidwr]

Bill Gates: Can you hear me now?

Re:Nice, just wish I could afford the equipment...

[cayenne8]

"Isn't that how it usually goes?"

Well, like most things...hardly anyone gets all the high end stuff all together, right off to bat!!

My stereo? I've been building it since I was about 12 years old. Right now it is all in storage as that I'm still a bit 'nomadic' since Katrina, but, I've built it starting with money I made back then babysitting, and doing yard work. Started with a Zenith stereo...el cheapo. I saved, and bought a Marantz reciever...then, my Dad found a good closeout sale on some pretty good sized Fisher speakers...I saved and couple years later, bought a pretty decent pioneer turntable. From there an Xmas present of a pretty decent at the time cassette deck (the sharp one which was one of the first to be able to skip songs, etc)...from there over the years, CD players when they came out in college....found a pair of 15 yr old Klipsch Cornwall speakers available just as I got a tax refund...later, Marantz gave out...found a Carver pre-amp with pro-logic, and their 4 channel cathedral amp...Klipsch got stolen...deal with insurance allowed me to spend $1800 and get Klipsch K-Horns (the same speakers I'd been drooling over since 12 yrs old). I've since gone to using the Decware tube amplifier...etc.

I run this system off a media box I've built, with my tunes ripped to FLAC...and I love the sound. But, while the system I have now (other equipment omitted), is in the multi-thousands of dollars, I didn't buy it all at once. Unless you are born into money, do like the rest of the world, and work hard and save and build slowly. Once you get to the point when older that your starting to pull down some serious bucks...well, you can splurge then...but, if you've been building all along, you'll find you have MOST of what you want by then.

I'm at the point now, of looking into higher end sound cards, I'm figuring that is probably the weak link in what I have now...when I buy a home, I'm gonna look into getting another set of some type Klipsch heritage speakers for the surround ones...as small as Heresy's, or maybe even LaScalla if the room is big enough.

See? you never have to quit dreaming and building your system...

Re:Nice, just wish I could afford the equipment...

[grommit]

When you move into your new home, don't forget the Ultra Super Mega Hi-Definition Monster Cables, just $199.99/linear foot! The increased resonances fidelities and resolutions will be well worth it. Also, it's much better to be safe and completely isolate your audio system from the power grid by running it entirely off of car batteries (I buy the batteries that Nascar uses since they're the highest quality). It may seem expensive but it's well worth it. I've spent over $150k on my audio system so far and I can *hear* the difference. Every time I buy a new component that costs 10x what the old component cost, it definitely sounds better.

Re:Nice, just wish I could afford the equipment...

[dgatwood]

ROTFLMAO. My favorite is the Wooden Volume Knob.

It's funny. Laugh.

Re:Nice, just wish I could afford the equipment...

[the_lesser_gatsby]

The M-Audio 2496 is pretty cheap and has excellent ADC/DAC and not bad op-amps. It gives a very nice line-out into a hifi (I run my through a Quad 303 for monitoring on my desktop).

For the ultimate hifi upgrade, get a Benchmark DAC and run it from the SPDIF of the M-Audio. Superb audio quality.

Re:Nice, just wish I could afford the equipment...

[radish]

Monster cables suck. There are good cables and bad cables, but you'll often find the good ones cost less than the bad ones. For example, I know audio engineers (designers of equipment costing 10's of thousands) who use CAT-5 for interconnects and mains power cable for speakers. Why? Because it sounds good, it's easy to get hold of, and it's cheap.

Whilst I understand that the world of high end audio has more than it's fair share of snake oil salesman selling overpriced crap (like the wooden volume knob) I get really sick of sarcastic comments from know-it-alls whenever anyone mentions having a decent audio setup. You wouldn't mock someone for having a kick ass computer setup, but there's some kind of geek prejudice against audio - which just seems weird to me.

Re:Nice, just wish I could afford the equipment...

[MrHanky]

M-Audio is well supported by ALSA. Sauce.

Re:Nice, just wish I could afford the equipment...

[powerpants]

The key feature, not mentioned on the webpage, is that these knobs go to 11.

Re:Nice, just wish I could afford the equipment...

[chris mazuc]

The point here is the micro vibrations created by the volume pots and knobs find their way into the delicate signal path and cause degradation (Bad vibrations equal bad sound). With the signature knobs micro vibrations from the C37 concept of wood, bronze and the lacquer itself compensate for the volume pots and provide (Good Vibrations) our ear/brain combination like to hear...way better sound!!

Hahahahahaha, at $485 the only knob is the one buying this kind of product.

Re:Nice, just wish I could afford the equipment...

[Applekid]

"You wouldn't mock someone for having a kick ass computer setup, but there's some kind of geek prejudice against audio - which just seems weird to me"

If said kick ass computer setup included a $59.95 3ft length of cable called "XXXtreme Gamer Cat5e(+++)" connecting it to his cable modem, yeah, I'd probably make fun of them. Particularly if they're going to pretend it gives them an edge in competition gaming and if I don't see if I'm OBVIOUSLY not a good enough gamer. ;)

I need more coffee

[StarvingSE]

Because at first glance I seriously thought that this article was going to be about smoking pot...

Re:I need more coffee

[darkvizier]

I need more coffee... because at first glance I seriously thought that this article was going to be about smoking pot...

Maybe it's not more coffee you need, but less pot?

Why has my submitted story been marked as "pending" for over 2 weeks now?

Don't call us, we'll call you.

Re:I need more coffee

[enc0der]

You're not the only one. I saw it as "Getting High" "Quality music on a PC" I just had the visual of someone staring at Winamp with Milkdrop running and commented "Dude, this sounds AWESOME" :)

Re:I need more coffee

[zakezuke]

Because at first glance I seriously thought that this article was going to be about smoking pot...

Getting High - Quality Audio from the pc. I thought it was going to be about someone releasing an extended dance remix of In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida by Iron Butterfly.

Age considerations?

[svendsen]

I wonder if they have taken into consideration the age of the audience when doing stuff like this. What I mean as we get older our ability to clearly hear certain sounds diminishes. A sad fact of life.

So I wonder when they take specs like this to build systems they go well our target audience is X years old so 90% of them don't need as good of quality in the sound so we can build something still good but cheaper because we don't need to use the 80% of the time to get the final 5% of sound?

Re:Age considerations?

[cayenne8]

"I wonder if they have taken into consideration the age of the audience when doing stuff like this. What I mean as we get older our ability to clearly hear certain sounds diminishes. A sad fact of life. "

That's why you need better systems...and add some volume. Of course, this perpetuates the 'cycle' till all hearing is lost.

:-)

I find it nice however, that someone IS talking about the merits of building for good sound reproduction!! It seems that so many of the past couple generations have grown up with no knowing what good sound or home stereo can be like...possibly due to growing up listening only to lossy sound files, many that are often poorly ripped if downloaded for free off the 'net. I guess if you've never listened to anything but portable players with earbuds (although good ones CAN be bought for a pretty good $$)..or only listen to music in a car (worst listening environment evar)...you wouldn't know what good sound CAN be...and wouldn't know that you could/should be discerning about how you reproduce it.

ON the other hand...possibly newer music popular today, has a lot to do with it. When I hear kids cars coming down the street, with the trunk literally about to vibrate open with massive subs blowing...I wonder if there is no midrange or treble in the song at all....? I mean, ALL you can hear is the thump of the bass...are there no other instruments out there today? Heck, all you hear in more rock today is a drop D guitar drone....

I like a good riff as much as anyone...but, music needs some balance, melody...something in the other tone frequencies. I guess if the music is missing all these 'colors'....maybe you don't need to have an interest in higher quality sound reproduction...if there is nothing there to reproduce.

[ramble mode off]

Re:Age considerations?

[Kadin2048]

To be perfectly honest, except in cars that are really well-insulated from the outside world, most of the quality on a CD or a decently-encoded digital file is going to be lost.

If your threshold for music listening is around 95 dB (which is only safe for 4 hrs/day anyway), and the road noise in the car at highway speeds is 60-75dB (the latter is allegedly the figure for my car as-built, a VW GTI, from an auto magazine) then you only have at most 35dB between the noise floor and max while driving.

That's already worse than most cassette tapes, particularly decent ones with Dolby NR. (I don't think they even sell the metal tapes anymore, but my recollection is that they were 30+ dB right out of the package without any noise reduction at all.)

In a way, it explains why so much popular music and FM radio is compressed: there's no reason to offer more than 40dB of dynamic range, because (assuming your listeners don't turn it up to unsafe/painful volumes) they'll never hear the quiet parts because of all the noise in the listening environment.

Frankly, I think the biggest single thing you can do, in terms of improving the sound system in your car, is to install a lot of Dynamat or other sound-insulating material. Most car stereos, even the factory ones, have far more resolution than you'll hear except when sitting in a parking lot. If you can drop that noise floor even 5dB, you'll get that much more "loudness" out of your stereo without upping the volume to dangerous levels.

Re:Age considerations?

[arth1]

While your ability to hear deteriorates with age, your ability to listen tends to increase, and you have more data in your brain for comparison, to know when something isn't quite right. When you're 18 and volume and bass is what counts, you might not notice that the high hat sounds like broken glass and the xylophone appears to move between the speakers depending on the note played. You might even think it's supposed to be that way. When you're older, you might be more critical and less accepting of flaws, even if you can't hear all the flaws.

Anyhow, I think the OP should have mentioned that this article is about audio for *AV*, and not pure audio. There's a vast difference between that and pure audio. While a movie can sound awesome with a bunch of small satellites and a sub, that will never do for, say, a recording of a symphony orchestra, where you know the timpani and double bass players aren't sitting on top of each other. Yes, bass at high volume (like in a movie) isn't very easily positioned, but at lower volumes, it's very noticeable. Likewise, when listening to a church organ, you can hear where the different pipes are. They don't move around, depending on the quality and frequency range of 7 different speakers. And when you listen to an AV system, you never play with the volume way down -- you're really only interested in accuracy at high volumes, quite unlike with high end audio.

Re:Age considerations?

[Reverberant]

If your threshold for music listening is around 95 dB (which is only safe for 4 hrs/day anyway), and the road noise in the car at highway speeds is 60-75dB (the latter is allegedly the figure for my car as-built, a VW GTI, from an auto magazine) then you only have at most 35dB between the noise floor and max while driving.

While I don't dispute the fact that a noisy car environment limits the effective S/N, your computation of 95dB - 60dB = 35dB isn't necessarily true since we can detect audio signals that are under the noise floor. This is especially true for rhythmic and tonal sounds. The effective noise floor is more like 45-55 dB which, while not great, is at least noticeably better than a S/N of 35 dB.

Carry on

Lynx Studio: 200K samples/sec @ 24/bits per sample

[mosel-saar-ruwer]

This is some serious sampling hardware [no affiliation]:

http://www.lynxstudio.com/products.html

My answer

[evanbd]

Audio should not be done inside a PC. Well, not the analog portion, anyway. Ever looked at anything inside a PC with an oscilloscope? The noise environment is awful. You should not be trying to clean up the power the PC provides to the point you can use it for analog work; it's just not worth it. Especially when you'll just get hit by all the radiated EMI inside the case.

The solution? Simple -- ship the data out digitally and do the analog work elsewhere. Fortunately this has become very easy, with S/PDIF and the availability of good amplifiers with digital inputs. Amplifier power supplies are designed to be clean, and there aren't high current noisy loads on them -- they're designed for analog work. I have a fully digital amplifier from Panasonic that I'm very happy with. (Fully digital meaning all the way to the output FETs -- it does a delta-sigma pulse density modulation directly on the output signal, which turns out to be a very low noise, inexpensive way to get high quality output.)

Re:My answer

[Banzai042]

The difficulty in this comes from the DRM restrictions on where digital audio can be sent. It's starting to look like the only way to get digital audio out will be via HDMI or some other encrypted digital audio interface, because of course we're going to use a digital out to make a perfect copy. Analog output is more popular with the MAFIAA because it can't create perfect copies.

Re:My answer

[nine-times]

I'm not disagreeing or criticizing, just chiming in but-- who the hell is doing analog work in a PC anyway? You're right, the EM fields inside PCs are ridiculous-- to the point where some hardware will actually make mouse movements and big changes to your display audible in your speakers-- but the whole point of doing any audio/video on a PC is to make it digital!

So really it's a pretty simple principle: whatever you're doing, focus on making the analog->digital and digital->analog conversions as cleanly as possible, and make those conversions as rarely as possible. If you're going to go digital, go digital as early as possible so you aren't gathering analog noise as you go, keep it digital, and be aware of whatever conversions and processing you're doing to the digital signal. Then, output to analog as late as possible, again to avoid gathering noise, and use good analog equipment (amps and speakers and such).

I mean, WTF, I've only been peripherally involved with audio work, but that's just common sense. But sometimes, if you listen to audiophiles, you'll hear totally retarded things like how some brand of CD-Rs will provide clearer-sounding recordings.

Re:My answer

[Jeremy Erwin]

I find it amusing that the writers chose to illustrate their article with a Denon 5805 receiver (which has every conceivable connection, and is quite expensive) but neglected to mention Firewire, HDMI, DenonLink, or ethernet. No, it's either analogue 5.1 or spdif, both of which have been out for some time.

Re:My answer

[Lumpy]

unfortunately your answer is wrong though. Most high end sound cards are PCI. 24 channel recording cards for pro tools do a GREAT job at rejecting and shielding against PC noises.

these guys have been doing this for quite a while now. and if you only want "good audio" from a pc for your hom theater, get something with spdif and toslink and call it done. Let a high end reciever/processor do the work converting the AC3 track to analog instead of the garbage consumer level PC audio cards.

Why?

[Stavr0]

Wouldn't it be simpler to use a recent sound card, and redirect all audio to the bitstream output? , or use a stream-capture driver that redirects the sound card output to a disk file?

Unless you happen to be on a DRM-encumbered OS like Vista where this is no longer poss---Ohhhh I see what's going on here...

Right. Move along. Nothing to see here.

And I stopped reading right after ....

[vivaoporto]

Like most CE products, the audio performance levels of PC-based products run the gamut, starting with basic devices like standard desktop or laptop PCs with sound that could be compared to commodity CE A/V gear such as compact systems or portable radios.M

Come on! Didn't some editor read it before posting it to Slashdot front page? This is nothing but advertisement for their A/V product line, and their summary is ridiculous. I will spare you people the trouble to read it in TFA:

- Pay attention to available connections
- Consider the effects of bass management
- Analog offers the highest performance soundtracks
- Digital connections generally work best set to Dolby Digital Live or DTS Connect
- Choose High Quality ripping settings

And, look at this pearl:

Lossless CODECs preserve all of the detail of the original media. For example, the WMA lossless CODEC is recommended for storing music which will be played back on a hi-fidelity home audio system.

I rest my case. Anyone advocating WMA lossless codec (specially to Slashdot target audience) is not worth your time. Nothing to see here, move along.

Audiophiles really are the ultimate suckers

[Jason1729]

audiophile writes "Just because it's a PC doesn't mean it can't output good-sounding audio.

Why would anyone even think that? Just because you have a processor that can perform gigaflops you'd think you can't output good quality sound? The only reason such a perception would exist is to get so-called audiophiles to spend more on garbage that doesn't make a difference to sound quality but they can pretend it does.

For proof, just look at this $1200 Power Cable . How stupid does one have to be to spend $1200 on a power cable. What do you think conducts the power from the breaker box to the wall outlet? Why would someone build a $3000+ amp and not properly condition the power inside the power supply?

Re:Audiophiles really are the ultimate suckers

[hairykrishna]

That's the funniest product description I ever read. It honestly looks like something off the Onion.

"Better clarity and resolution for video

Guess I don't need no stinkin' high def TV, it's just my low-quality power cable that is lowering my TV's resolution.

Re:Audiophiles really are the ultimate suckers

[Watts Martin]

Why would anyone even think [that a PC can't output good-sounding audio]?

A lot of PCs have historically used really, really cheap components in their audio systems, that introduce noticeable distortion and have crappy signal-to-noise ratios. In some applications, that crappy S/N ratio may just not be good enough. This is not rocket science, and it's certainly not spending $1200 on a power cable. It's just common sense.

And I preemptively apologize for the snappish tone of this, but whenever anyone mentions anything that suggests one might want to buy an audio component higher quality than what you can get at RadioShack, they're immediately hit with "Have you seen the expensive cables audiophiles buy LOL audiophiles are stupid ha ha." Yeah, ha ha, funny funny. There's been "snake oil" in high-end audio for decades. There are also great price-to-performance values, and systems that--as shocking as it may be--really do have measurably better sound.

Olde Sound Cards

[CompMD]

I miss the old Sound Blaster 16s. They were pretty decent cards. I still have a couple of them around, but the lack of ISA slots in most machines is keeping them out of service. My mp3 playback computer uses an old Diamond Monster Sound MX300 (Vortex2) card, and its pretty awesome. Old, but awesome.

MP3

[rlp]

Given the proliferation of MP3 as a standard audio format, I wonder how many people actually care about high quality audio?

Re:MP3

[dal20402]

99% of music is indistinguishable from CD in 256kbps AAC (I don't have many 256k MP3s).

But some waveforms are just too hard to compress. In particular, harpsichords, solo classical string instruments, and solo electric guitar (through some filters) start to sound strange even at 256k.

A good but not foolproof way to figure out what is going to be troublesome to compress is to compress it losslessly using FLAC or ALAC and look at the resulting mean bitrate. Most stuff that compresses to between 400-600kbps, which is most music, will be fine at 256k. Some of my music, though, exceeds 900kbps lossless, and I even have a couple tracks over 1000kbps (where uncompressed PCM = 1411kbps). In all cases this stuff sounds like crap compressed to 256k. The harpsichords, in particular, sound harsh and flat, since the exceedingly complex waveform they make just can't all fit.

For me, it doesn't matter in the end, since I rip everything losslessly and then compress it for the car or the iPod where sound quality really doesn't matter anyway. But some people may not want to use hundreds of GBs of disk space or may have more music. For them, strategic ripping is in order.

Garbage In Garbage Out... uh well, no....

[rueger]

Just because it's a PC doesn't mean it can't output good-sounding audio.

I guess it didn't occur to him that virtually all audio today is recorded and edited using some form of computer, whether Mac or PC. The statement above is really rather pointless.

Re:Lynx Studio: 200K samples/sec @ 24/bits per sam

[CaseyB]

So that it still sounds perfect on those occasions when you choose to play your music back at 1/4 speed.

Source + DAC + Amp +Speaker

[sebol]

You have to remember, when it come to "high-end" audio, logic has no place. "High-end" audio lives by a very simple rule - more expensive the gadget, the better - it does not matter if makes sense or if it really even make things better (because it is all about psychology and not physics), the cost of the gadget is what matters.

In my oppinion, Source + DAC + Amp +Speaker ar important to determine audio quality.
if we know sound card contained with very poor DAC, dont let PC doing the DAC job.
so that's why i strongly suggest just get optical spdif from computer.

in my real life situation, my macmini (with flac & alac audio) spdif to yamaha amp, the B&W speaker.
it sound just great.

Re:Source + DAC + Amp +Speaker

[TPJ-Basin]

Try the DAC from HeadRoom. They're an outstanding company. I first purchased from them probably 10+ years ago and have used them 4 or 5 times since. They're good folks and make outstanding products.

Creative Sucks

[Anonymous Coward]

Everything they make is a piece of crap.

If you want a really good soundcard that doesn't cost an arm and a leg, and is about as "audiophile" as you can possibly achieve with a wintel PC, then look no further than an M-Audio Audiophile 192

Re:Lynx Studio: 200K samples/sec @ 24/bits per sam

[Jeremy Erwin]

You can use an assortment of filters that use the ultra high frequencies essentially as a garbage dump. All the errors are placed in the inaudible region.

Re:Actually it's pretty easy..

[mrjb]

Audigy 2 and other EMU10k1 chipsets are locked to 48khz internally, which has caused me a lot of grief when wanting to play back stuff at other rates. If you're playing back 48k exclusively this is fine, otherwise better get a soundcard that supports the different sample rates of your choice natively.

Just get one of these

[locarecords.com]

Why would you bother? Makes a lot more sense to get one of these and output to whatever you need... RME Fireface

Buy a professional audio card

[Saffaya]

When I built my home theater system 2 years ago, I decided to invest in a professional audio card.
[For example, after reading buyers reviews and critics, I settled on the Terratec phase 28. http://audioen.terratec.net/modules.php?op=modload &name=News&file=article&sid=7 ]

Its output is directly connected to my Hi-Fi amplifier (no pre-amp).

The only thing to be careful about with such a setup is to not shut down your PC (reset/reboot is fine) while your amp is still on.

Investing in a high grade sound card is the same as investing in a good amplifier or speakers : you are likely to use it for a long time (unlike a graphics card for example).

Re:My answer too

[dal20402]

As an owner of one Sony and one Panasonic digital "amp" owner who is equally happy...

Just see what happens when you are sitting around eating BBQ in the backyard and you try to tell people about your kick-ass PCM-PWM converter and amplitude modulator.

(On second thought, /. readers are probably inured to the resulting reaction. Never mind.)

Bose

[Kamokazi]

I think you just outlined the reason Bose is successful...

public service announcement

[fred fleenblat]

not to be a downer, but the #1 thing is to protect your ears.

* keep the volume down, whether speakers or headphones
* be careful of occupational noise...use foam earplugs or over-the-ear mufflers, make your employer pay for them and make sure your co-workers know about hearing damage too
* stay away from loud concerts, parties, dance halls
* get your hearing checked every couple of years by an audiologist
* don't overdo the drugs, booze, or caffiene
* if you are exposed to even moderately high sound levels, let your ears rest for a couple weeks before exposing them again. do not *ever* go to two rock concerts in the same weekend
* at the first sign of infection or fluid buildup, see a doctor
* hearing loss can be instantaneous and permanent, don't risk it

All the megabits and SNR in the world won't help if your nerve cells and eardrums are making little buzzes, whines, and clicking noises. You can buy a better sound card or nicer speakers but you cannot replace damaged hearing: PROTECT IT

Re:public service announcement

[IthnkImParanoid]

don't overdo the drugs, booze, or caffeine

Or better yet, stop putting them in your ear altogether!

(Actually, I didn't know caffeine, alcohol, and nicotine could exacerbate hearing loss/tinnitus. Thanks for the interesting post.)

Re:public service announcement

[karnal]

* stay away from loud concerts, parties, dance halls

I play drums (with myself, I'm so lonely) - it gets amazingly loud in a short period of time if you have no earplugs in. In addition, I've been to concerts where my ears physically start hurting. I end up going home at that point.

I've got a new solution though:

Etymotic Research ER20BP

I just bought 2 more sets of these since I lost my first set. Me and the wife are going to a concert in a few weeks and I want to be prepared. These plugs help you hear the full frequency range of hearing, just 20db less. In contrast, most ear plugs really squash the highs out....

Re:I keep the analogue audio out of the computer

[radish]

I pipe FLAC over wifi (how's that for electrical isolation!) to a Slimdevices Transporter and from there to the amp with a regular analogue hookup. The sound is amazing, the DAC in that thing is a work of art.

I have a question - why are you resampling to 24/192? If your source is 16/44 you're not going to improve anything by resampling...and that ratio is potentially going to lead to degredation (192 is not an integer multiple of 44).

Just buy an old SGI

[coredog64]

Just buy an old SGI O2 (if you're going to do analog only) or Octane (if you want SPDIF in). They're practically free (there was a Craigslist post with 6 Octanes for $120 in SoCal within the last two weeks), they're made for audio, and to be honest, Irix is light years ahead of Linux when it comes to a rational and sane interface for configuring the audio hardware. Plus, the mixer (called 'audiopanel' in Irix) goes to 11

Yes...my biggest upgrade was dumping my Audigy

[Scrith]

I didn't really know any better until I tried something else. The sound quality from the Audigy sound cards is simply awful thanks to the terrible sample rate conversion they do from 44K (music from CDs should play at this rate) to 48K.