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MS Requiring More Expensive Vista if Running Mac
ktwdallas writes "Mathew Ingram from Canada's Globe and Mail writes that Microsoft will require at least the $299 Business version of Vista or higher if installing on a Mac with virtualization. Running the cheaper Basic or Premium versions would be a violation of their user agreement. According to the article, Microsoft's reasoning is 'because of security issues with virtualization technology'. Sounds suspiciously like a 'Mac penalty' cost that Microsoft is trying to justify."
Old news, that is a requirement for running virtual on any machine not just Macs. Beside, Mac doesn't let you run OSX under virtualization anywhere!
If sounds like a Mac penalty because you didn't listen. They require the pricier version of Vista for ALL virtualization, not just on Macs. If you want to run Vista in a VM on a PC you're under the same requirement by the EULA.
jX [ Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler. - Einstein ]
Sooooo does that also include their virtualization products? Hmmmm?
This seems sort of counter productive to me, i would think they would want peopele to run vista on as many machines as they can.. Especially if there is a chance they can push a user away from another OS. But then again, they are a monopoly, they dont always have to do what makes sence.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Any of your doubts as to why your software continues to be pirated, cracked, or otherwise made available to those who you think have no desire to pay is in part directly because of your continued arbitrary restrictions against otherwise legitimate users.
What kind of Vista-exclusive software are you gonna run? (Especially under virtualization)
... was never so appropriate.
"Security vulnerabilities?" You mean how you can isolate a VM away from the rest of the world and if it gets infected with a virus, you can just shut it off, blow it away and start over?
THAT kind of security vulnerability? How incredibly, incredibly lame.
+++ATH0
Really, how many times are you planning to run this "story"? Maybe the plan is to stop once the FUD meme is spread to your satisfaction like all the others before?
There are enough things to criticize Microsoft over. These FUD campaigns are going to backfire one of these days. You can only claim you're being FUD'ed for so long before everyone realizes you're no better.
First of all this story is weeks if not months old, and a dupe to boot. Second of all this applies only if you run vista in/as a virtual machine not if you install on a mac that also has virtulization (for another OS say). In other words you can use boot camp to boot to your heart's content but can't run the cheaper Vista version in a VM under OS X just like everyone else in the fucking world who wants to run vista under a VM.
I mean what the hell is up with Apple users and their inferiority/persecution complexes? This applies to all VMs and likely the number of non-mac users running windows under a VM (developers, linux users, etc.) is far larger than the number of Mac users who'd be doing it.
You know, you're not required to buy anything from Microsoft, if that's the way you feel. And if it bothers you that much, ignore them and think about something else.
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
And what, Apple lets you virtualize OS X?
The anti-virtualization clause is likely unenforceable anyway *. However, most businesses that use Windows buy volume license agreements under contract, and the contract states that they will obey the EULA. That brings the EULA from the gray area into enforceability for them.
* They know that their DRM system can be cracked easily by virtualization. They might be able to win under the DMCA because of this.
I'm not a lawyer, I just read a lot.
"Screw Sun, cross-platform will never work. Let's move on and steal the Java language." - Visual J++ Product Manager
One word: Students.
I consider that to be a consumer use of Vista in virtualization.
Someone beat him to this "news". Hell, it was even discussed on Slashdot before. You can read the *first* article about this here.
bork bork bork!
I have tried running a legitimate XP copy (SP1) on Ubuntu with Innotek's VirtualBox - and the WGA gets the idea I am running an illegimate version of Windows even after I input my key into it (stored bought boxed version). Instead of explaining why it's bad (perhaps the license isn't pricey enough but this is only an SP1 disk so it shouldn't count should it? I didn't agree to those term on the Eula back then:) - they bring up a Survey that was extremely offensive - asking me how I felt having an illegimate copy of windows, what I would do with an illegimate copy of windows, and so on and so forth (they made sure to say "illegimate copy" in every question and generally treat you like a 5 year old idiot).
None of this makes me want to go out and buy MS products more - the ones I have apparently don't work even though the terms on the EULA back then have never mentioned virtualization.
They won't allow even Security upgrades based on this. I can forsee lawsuits coming from network owners and ISP because they are refusing to patch their own defective software and allowing so many computers to get compromised and botnets to form, etcetera. Fine, don't let me get upgrades for greater functionality, but at least give me those security patches.
Like the RIAA, the tighter MS grasps, the more will slip through there fingers. I refuse to be extorted to pay a higher price for software than what I already paid for it just because it is running in a situation they have not forseen 4 years back when the copy was new.
Microsoft is scared of virtualization. All of a sudden, there is no longer a requirement to have Microsoft software driving your real hardware. Especially with Parrallels able to run Windows Apps on your desktop without even looking at a Virtual Machine window, MS, I'm sure, can feel it all slipping away.
"When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
THIS JUST IN - APPLE requiring MORE EXPENSIVE PC if running MAC OS!
Take off the tinfoil hat and be realistic. Besides, the U.S. government has never officially acknowledged the existence of 0S/2 WARP concentration camps.
You can run Vista Home Basic on a Mac with Boot Camp, if you so desire. Just not from wthin OS X.
What about XP? What about question marks?
#6495ED - cornflower blue
This is old news, and not Mac-specific, but since it was re-posted anyway: What extra features does the $299 Business version offer to protect Windows against security issues with virtualization technology, and why aren't these features in the Basic and Premium versions?
If it does offer something extra then I'm interested to know, but the linked article basically states that Microsoft has "restricted the use of Vista to versions that it assumes are likely to be run either by corporations or by sophisticated users."
So in other words, assuming this is correct, they're openly using higher pricing as a security defence? (ie. "Let's make our product more secure by charging more money for it!") If so, then that's a new one and it seems kind of backwards.
Who says you have to be a consumer-level user to want to install a consumer-level version of Vista?
It would be nice to be able to test whether an app works on all versions of Vista without having to have them all on physical boxes.
Boot Camp is not virtualization; it's a set of tools (firmware patch, driver CD creator, NTFS formatter with nondestructive partitioning) that allow Apple hardware to boot Vista directly. You won't violate the cheap Vista license if you use it under Boot Camp. You only need the expensive version for Parallels, which lets you run an OS in a window as an OS X app (real virtualization).
You can not run the host and guest OS of Vista Home using the same key. Microsoft gives you extra permissions to run several copies of Vista business on the same machine using only one license. Nobody is stopping you from running Vista Home Basic under Parallels if you bought a dedicated license for this purpose. In fact, it would be dubious since Mac+OSX+Parallels can be viewed as simply another computer and, for all its ills, Microsoft is not practicing hardware lock-ins.
Who are the consumer-level users who want virtualization going to be?
A large number of Mac users.
The only security issue I can see is from Microsoft's perspective: if Windows is merely a guest OS hosted on Mac OS X, Linux, BSD, or other, it is obviously not the users' primary operating system. Since it is not their primary operating system it is clear they are either not a fan of Microsoft, or even worse, are loyal to a competitor's product, be it free/OSS or proprietary. Since the days are numbered for earning revenue from that customer, what better way to maximize profits from that customer by requiring them to buy the products with the highest profit margin, despite the fact that the customers do not need the eye candy and other non-features the premium versions provide?
It's all about short term gains. Rather than focusing on maintaining long-term growth (Microsoft has already grown as much as they can and they know it) Microsoft has turned from being one of the most customer-friendly companies around to being one of the most hostile; revoking your first sale doctrine rights (e.g., you cannot transfer a COMMODITY PRODUCT from an old PC to a new PC), spying on your computing activities (genuine advantage) and jacking up prices when the customer is receiving LESS value with the new OS (it hogs RAM and processor, boasts slower I/O AND is DRM-heavy). Also, they claim that F/OSS is bad because it does not come with a warranty or support. Well, have you ever read the Microsoft EULA? It comes with no support, and warranties and liabilities are EXPRESSLY DISCLAIMED.
Where is the value in the backing of a big company again?
My company has developed custom software solutions for customers, one of which is an interesting software registration (Windows activation-like - well, more like Adobe CS's, but about three years before Adobe implemented theirs) architecture. We back these works for higher with a warranty, e.g., if a genuine bug is found, we fix it and issue the fix at no charge. Feature requests, of course, are billable (time/materials, basically the cost of doing business) but we don't waive warranty.
IMHO all software companies should back their products with support and bug fixes. Period. Microsoft doesn't; they downplay the impact of bugs (see yesterday's
Again, where is the value of Windows over F/OSS solutions?
Is it any shock they are requiring you to buy the high-end product to run as a guest OS? Of course not; Microsoft has nowhere to go but down, and they are fully aware of it so they are scramling to profiteer as much as they can before they collapse.
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
Careful... Don't prove that is so or you might get yourself killed at the next zebra crossing.
Have you ever considered piracy? You'd make a wonderful Dread Pirate Roberts.
The more you regulate a company, the worse its products become.
Specifically, Mac users. That's what I was driving at.
+++ATH0
I switched from Solaris to Linux, and then from Linux to MacOSX. That last switch was driven by the quality of the MacBook Pro, its power/portability ratio, and it power management. I considered several other notebooks, but each had some annoying factor that made it inferior as a Linux notebook. So I bought a MacBook Pro, and I run OSX on it. The last thing I want is anything that would require me to run Windows on it, VM or not, dual boot or not. I cannot even imagine what application that might be. If I did find such a thing, I would hope I could just use one of my Win2000 licenses under some VM or dual boot system.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
When MS talks about 'security' you have to ask 'Is this security in the computer systems meaning of the word or in the financial security sense of the word?'
In this case its fairly clear that MS is mainly concerned with financial security.
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
Can you not use TurboTax? It works just fine on a Mac.
There are online tax solutions, and there's the good old fashioned pen and paper approach. You aren't "required" to use anything. Myself, I use WifeOS to do my taxes, and WifeOS always handles my taxes with the pen and paper approach, this includes the messy self-employment tax schtuff, but WifeOS hasn't had a problem yet!
I love my sig.
the problem is that WifeOS always comes bundled with the hardware, and the hardware doesn't always allow the software to work as the user wishes.
Sent: Sunday, January 24, 1999 8:41 AM
[...]
Subject: ACPI extensions
One thing I find myself wondering about is whether we shouldn't try and make the "ACPI" extensions somehow Windows
specific.
It seems unfortunate if we do this work and get our partners to do the work and the result is that Linux works great without
having to do the work. Maybe there is no way to avoid this problem but it does bother me.
Maybe we could define the APIs so that they work well with NT and not the others even if they are open.
Or maybe we could patent something related to this. This is clear evidence that they (at least) considered using patents and deliberately creating incompatibility to hurt competitors, even under the guise of being "open". Don't you think this virtualization pricing thing just might be less a concern about security (?) and more an attempt to do something similar via the EULA?
W
-------------------
This is my SIG. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
I think I'll remember government efficiency first. I've known illegal aliens who've driven and have had jobs for years without getting caught. Not to mention drug laws that go ignored. And as a prime example, sodomy laws and laws against vibrators that are on the books yet do nothing.
And besides, it'll be Microsoft and other software/hardware companies that force the upgrade, not the government.
I don't get it.
I laughed at this. It is a bit insightful but it is certainly funny too.
t m
On another note the OS X licence agreement states:
"2. Permitted License Uses and Restrictions.
A. This License allows you to install and use one copy of the Apple Software on a single Apple-labeled computer at a time. "
So you can't even legally run a normal OS X in virtualization on a PC unless Apple made it. This is a much harsher license if you ask me.
source - http://store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Images/MacOSX.h
Isn't Turbo Tax from the company who were installing spyware in your boot sector awhile back? I always use Tax Cut instead because of that.
Microsoft: You need to pay more to run Vista under virtualization.
Slashdot's response: God I hate Microsoft!
Apple: You may never, under any circumstances, on any hardware, at any time, for any reason, ever run OS X under virtualization. Period.
Slashdot's response: God I hate Microsoft!
Microsoft isn't specifically targeting Mac users, they're targeting everyone that does virtualization, which is a pretty sizable group these days. I don't support the practice, but apparently I must point out that Apple is specifically targeting Mac users, and their terms are much more onerous than Microsoft's in this case.
Besides, can't you run the entry level Vista Home with Boot Camp?
I rarely criticize things I don't care about.
I think I still have a few 'rainbow' Apple stickers from the old Macintosh days. I could slap that on the side of any laptop I wanted to install OS X on.
VMWare would already support virtual OS X sessions under OS X, however VMWare has not done so because of concerns about just this very reason.
There are many 3D/CG apps out there which come in one version alone; one does not simply shift a workflow overnight. I keep an old Win2k instance (under Virtual PC) around on my PowerMac in case I come across an old file I want to bring into a current project (it's easier to open VPC, fire up Rhinoceros, load the old .3dm file, then export it to .obj - than it would be to completely rebuild a an old proprietary-formatted NURBS-based high polycount-equivalent mesh from scratch). I realize you newbie types aren't familiar with such things, but trust me - it happens.
Finally? If someone coughs up the cash to buy a Mac, then fuck you - he or she is a Mac User, and I for one am more than happy to help any of 'em transit to using OSX primarily when/if they're ready. Same with Linux; if they took the time to install it and learn to do things on it, I don't give a flying shit if they have Crossover, Win4Lin, Xen, Cedega, or old-school WINE running some (or even most) of the apps they still want and/or need... at least they're willing to make the effort, which is a damned sight better than the majority out there.
In short - your bullshit elitist attitude is not welcome. You should've posted AC.
Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
I heard about it.
Please tell us about the penalty imposed after the conviction, and tell us how it affected Microsoft's ability to maintain their monopoly and the 85% profit margins which went with being an abusive monopoly.
"I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
Slashdot's response: God I hate Microsoft!
Apple: You may never, under any circumstances, on any hardware, at any time, for any reason, ever run OS X under virtualization. Period.
Slashdot's response: God I hate Microsoft!
Linux: It's free. Run it on whatever hardware you want. Run as many instances on as many machines as you damn well feel like. Treat it like it's yours to keep.
Slashdot's response: God I hate Microsoft!
Beginning to understand yet?
"I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
I just don't get why people think "Apple does it" is an excuse. It's still absurd, and most likely unenforceable legally. The only real difference is that, so far, Apple doesn't seem likely to make any real attempt at enforcement, while MS has spent countless man-hours coding trojan horses into their own products to allow them to enforce such terms extra-legally.
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Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
If you need to test an app on Vista then presumably you are developing an app for Windows. If this is true then you probably already have a MSDN subscription. This subscription provides you with MSDN versions of M$ software so that you can have test enviroments to vet your software. This MSDN software comes bundled with its own license so this does not apply anyways.
$diff terrorists hippies
$
$rm -rf *terrorists *hippies
And if you at any point just express the desire to upgrade the hardware - to say nothing of the software - suddenly half your money will be spent on supporting legacy hardware.
Talk about vendor lock-in...
Ignore this signature. By order.
Apple tries to prevent people from using OS X on other hardware at any price. So even if this "Mac Tax" were real, Microsoft would still be treating people far better than Apple does.
...and that also works on a Mac.
#naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
What, you mean the part at the end where MS got off scott free, after they were supposed to endure all sorts of punishments?
Has Apple said "never, ever" to virtualization, or is it just that negotiating with Apple over how to do it legally is not on Parallels/VMWare's "TO DO" list (while they're busy racing to grab the lucrative windows-on-Mac market)?
Anway, if you don't like Apple's policy then it is incredibly easy to avoid buying a Mac because Apple do not have a 95%+ monopoly in the personal computer market - the only problem is which alternative you choose because Microsoft have a 95%+ monopoly in the PC market so even if you plump for Linux or BSD you'll find that lots of people take for granted that you can run Windows software.
A lot of good software is Windows only because, what with Microsoft having a 95%+ monopoly in the PC market its quite hard for software houses to justify supporting other platforms.
So, if a demand for virtualized Mac OSX does develop and Apple continue to block it then Apple will lose business. Microsoft, however, have a 95%+ monopoly in the PC market and can get away with all sorts of customer-hostile tricks - forbidding virtualization of the cheaper Vista versions doesn't impact on their income from the "Microsoft tax" on new computers and it doesn't really affect the big, corporate, volume licensing clients much. The people who it affects disproportionately are those using Macs and Linux who need to use a few Windows apps - not only do they (technically) have to fork out for a "full version" of Windows - already 2-3 times the retail price of the OEM version - they now have to buy the most expensive version too (or will do when XP is no longer easily available).
P.S. did I mention that Microsoft have a 95%+ monopoly in the PC market - which is why slashdot (plus the authoriities in every country that has any sort of monopoly/antitrust legislation) apply different standards to Microsoft and Apple.
In a survey of 100 programmers, 111111 thought that duck-typing was a good idea.