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New Motherboards Disallowing IDE Booting?
wattsup asks: "It seems that bootable IDE ports are disappearing on newer motherboards. I recently purchased an
MSI G965M-FI motherboard for a system upgrade. Overall the board is pretty good with lots of features, but it had one unexpected 'feature' that I didn't know about when I bought it. The PATA100 IDE port won't allow you to install an operating system from an attached CD-ROM. Does anybody know if this is an issue that can be fixed by
upgrading the BIOS, or is this hard-wired into the IDE controller?"
"While its on their website, MSI doesn't tell you this on the retail packaging, until you break the seal on the static wrap and look at the motherboard. There, with a tiny label placed over the IDE connector, they inform you 'This IDE
does not support OS installation in hard drive'.
This made my out-of-box experience rather maddening, as I had to get a USB based CD-ROM to install a fresh copy of XP. This seems like a pretty lame way to save money, disabling functionality on an IDE port that's included. Some research shows me that other manufacturers are doing the same thing. Why?"
This made my out-of-box experience rather maddening, as I had to get a USB based CD-ROM to install a fresh copy of XP. This seems like a pretty lame way to save money, disabling functionality on an IDE port that's included. Some research shows me that other manufacturers are doing the same thing. Why?"
Yeah, I've yet to hear a 100% success story -- on Windows or Linux -- with those JMicron IDE controllers. They are absolute pieces of shit, and the drivers are even worse than the controllers.
Motherboards based on the intel 965 chipset do not have ide (pata) ports unless the mb maker adds a discrete chip. It then becomes a matter of cost to add simple ide support or a full blown ide host akin to a full scsi type host that supports booting.
As most boards are configured, the bios could boot off of an ide based DVD drive, but when the modern OS gets control, it will not see the ide ports since it isn't part of the chipset. Just like scsi needs drivers (or modules) loaded, the new ide will need these too. Ultimately, intel made the decision to use the pins needed for 2 separate ide ports for many more sata ports.
Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see. - Mark Twain
On the MSI site you linked, it states "On-Board IDE (USB to IDE)
1 IDE port by JMicron JMB20335."
You can locate that part on JMicron's website
I haven't found a datasheet on it yet, but my assumption would be that chip doesn't allow booting. Essentially what you have is an MSI board without IDE support. Because that sucks, they integrated the JM20335, a USB to PATA bridge chip, much like what's likely used inside your USB CD-Rom drive. Unfortunately, it would seem this USB chip is non-bootable, like many USB Flash drives... Remember, I'm speculating on that outcome as I haven't found a datasheet.
Firstly, should this really be posted on /. ? This is a support/hardware forum posting.
The answer is simply that the P965 chipset has no native PATA controllers in it and so motherboard manufactures provide support for these legacy interfaces (decided as legacy by Intel) through a 3rd party controller chip which is not controlled by the BIOS and requires device drivers to be used. Motherboard manufactures have realised the continued need for PATA ports which is why they are kind enough to provide the extra chip. So no BIOS update will fix this and yes it is a trend, pushed by Intel (and potentially other chipset manufacturers), which will continue. It could be considered that Intel's decision to drop PATA was a little premature due to the relative lack of SATA DVD drives, but DVD drive manufactures have said that the majority sold with finally be SATA by the second half of 07.
SATA optical drives have been around for a while, newegg has 15 different drives listed. Burners starting about $35US.
Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see. - Mark Twain
I know it's still stupid having to do it in the first place, but couldn't you just use an internal drive with a PATA-to-SATA connector?
which is the same thing the posted indicated was on the sticker.
MSI didn't just update because of a
Just remember - if the world didn't suck, we would all fall off.
I've had something similar on an IBM xSeries (quite an old bit of kit) which was designed for SCSI drives. A small copy of lilo or grub on a boot floppy set to chainboot hd(0,0)/hda5 sorted it out, though.
Well, it's not entirely MSI's fault as Intel dropped PATA from the chipset--which saves a LOT of pins that can be used for other things or make the Southbridge a lot smaller. MSI probably should have used an IDE to SATA bridge chip instead of an IDE to USB bridge chip, though, as that could have been transparent to the rest of the system, though it would have wasted probably 2 SATA ports. It's a trade off...
Yeah, I've yet to hear a 100% success story -- on Windows or Linux -- with those JMicron IDE controllers. They are absolute pieces of shit, and the drivers are even worse than the controllers.
I recently tossed a pair of USB external HD enclosures, with JMicron chips on the bridge boards, in the trash. Under heavy load the USB device would just drop off the bus. Warning: JMicron inside.
Me, throwing away hardware - that's pretty rare (ask my wife - the one time I throw away hardware it's because they hosed her photo album - she can't win). Also, lesson learned: don't run RAID on two of the same bridge chips - they're likely to fail at the same time.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
The cost?
Roughly $30 to $40 for the low end models and around $100 for the high end.
Not only are SATA drives cheap, but IDE->SATA adapters can be had online for $4. Additionally, using SATA optical drives bypasses the worst offenders of CD based DRM like Starforce.
Regardless, MSI should have put this warning right on the front of the box in large type. People don't look in the fine print for confirmation of what is considered basic functionality.
Using Gamecopyworld mostly won't mess up your games. YMMV.
Alternatively, go grab Smart Boot Manager and avoid messing with configuring lilo/grub/whatever.
SBM pulls up a nice list of every bootable device on your system (including ones that aren't supported by the BIOS), and lets you boot from them.
Since when is George W. Bush conservative?
If you're willing to pay more the $14 I'm guessing you could find a better drive. It's not like the cheapest drive Lite-On makes is your only choice -- I'm guessing most people buying an SATA optical drive would at least buy a DVD-ROM drive for the $3 price difference.
8 2E16812206001
Or for a whopping $9.99 you could buy an adapter and use whatever IDE drive you like:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N
Sorry, I don't understand why it would simplify your cabling... If you don't need the PATA, just don't put the cable?.
Is the board cheaper by not having PATA?
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
This may not work with your board, but might be worth a try.
"He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1
PATA: wide flat cable that supports two device per cable.
SATA: small, narrow cable that supports one device per cable.