We had a case recently where there was an odd source of infection on a supposedly secure PC... seems the user was more tech-savvy than most, and purchased a 3G USB modem and then proceeded to spread spyware all over the place with his browsing (to be fair he had an extremely boring job but...)
It IS available for most of us (us being people reading/.)
Hmm... I'd be willing to bet that half the readership is not physically in the U.S. (see for example the 4th of July poll - 55% voted it meant "nothing" or "something else")
Across the river, in Argentina, I'm making 5 pounds, about 8 USD, after taxes too. I'm underpaid too, as there is a higher salary in most other companies.
Yes, Argentina has higher salaries for IT, I'd heard that. And Chile, even better.
I'm seriously contemplating taking that plunge, I've been afraid to leave the safety net of the easy 8 to 6 job, though
Uruguay has laws that promote staying in a steady job - if I got fired, I'd get 3 months's salary as compensation plus 6 months of unemployment benefits, against being in the local IRS equivalent's target if you freelance online.
Still, I do believe I'd make way more on Elance or similar. Thanks again, I just have to gather the nerve (and some small savings).
Er... yeah, seriously... you're being taken for a ride. Minimum wage is nearly double that and a legal requirement...(snip) If you are genuinely working for a large and well known corporation, time to name and shame them.
He's in Romania, similar situation to mine I guess. Here in Uruguay, all the major corps (and McDonalds of course) pay way less than 3 pounds sterling per hour. McDonalds in particular pays about 80 pounds a month.
In case you haven't read the FAQ,/. is a US centric website.
Hi Mr. Coward, I know you've been around forever, but I've been posting here since 2005:) - I think I picked that up:)
I was just trying to point out (somewhat sarcastically) to those that wonder "who would sign up for this, when Wal-mart is available", that no, it's NOT available for most of us ("us" being the 6 billion and a half of non-US citizens).
Let's see - assuming 3 pounds is roughly 100 Uruguayan Pesos:
* 10 loaves of bread
* 50 cigarettes (2 packs and a half)
* 6 bus tickets and change
More interestingly:
* A kilo of nice, prime quality beef
* 6 liters of milk
* Dinner for two (cheap) or a good meal for one, dining out
* An hour of cleaning lady
* Two shifts of laundry at a laundromat (with service, not self-service)
The government index for basic food for a family for a month is set at 72 pounds ( http://www.dgc-mef.gub.uy/consultas/almacen/canastas/mensual/ ), so 24 hours of hypothetical work could feed a family for a month.
I pay U$ 200 for rent (16 square meters apartment), average is about U$ 400 - but they don't include all the amenities included in an US rent.
Anything electronics or luxury imports are HEAVILY taxed, we probably have the most expensive cars in the world, and stuff like consoles cost 300% of US price, etc.
Money is paid to USA and Indian workers only. Everyone else gets to use their earnings as gift certificates at amazon.com.
Didn't know about that, how annoying - but it's standard to have problems collecting over here - Paypal doesn't have bank accounts here either IIRC.
It adds one more step: buy something at Amazon, smuggle it in here and then sell it at a huge profit, as taxes here are outrageous - a Kindle can be easily sold for U$ 300 or more - the Sony reader sells for U$ 600 at a shopping center. Even better, books and CDs can be imported legitimately so it wouldn't be smuggling (you have to pay the heavy shipping costs though).
In all, if you're materialistic and US-centric (like I am) it sucks a bit to live in Uruguay (too bad the US is currently so harsh on immigrants, not to mention emigrating is hard - leaving family and friends behind and all that)
I've got news for you... I have a degree in Information Systems, and I work for 3 pounds sterling an hour (of course my employer gets a discount rate since I work for them 200 hours a month guaranteed, and it's after-taxes money - Government gets 40% of what I make before taxes since I'm obviously "rich").
You think filling out YouGov forms or whatever (hadn't heard of them before) for that same amount of money isn't a good deal?
I live in Montevideo, Uruguay, and yes, I believe I will eventually make better money, but over half the programmers here make less than that.
You know, some countries in South America have such serious problems inspiring confidence, that Argentina ran ad campaigns on neighbouring countries and potential investors touting themselves as "a Serious Country" ("Argentina, un país en serio").
At the same time they were stealing from the pension funds, setting a blockade to the neighbouring country Uruguay (where I come from), and lots of other stuff (just search for the words of the ad, and you'll find lots of criticism). Not to mention they had just defaulted from their debt and all that.
And actually, Costa Rica is one of the most serious countries in Latin America, and way more credible than their "joke" neighbours.
IDK about the US, but over here withdrawing from the teller costs money, and you're subject to the absurd working hours of the bank.
OTOH, if you withdraw from the ATM you're liable to the sort of things you mention (I'm still out U$ 300 from the Bank Boston - now Banco Itaú in Uruguay, and will never do business with them again whenever possible, from an ATM failure that resulted on withdrawal from my account without me receiving the money, and even appealing to the bank didn't work)
Anyone who's been a systems administrator for many years has probably dealt with Novell at one point or another in their career.
And Novell NetWare was ROCK SOLID as a file server. I have good memories of that. OTOH, it was basically not very flexible, and GroupWise sucked when last I saw it.
There's just something inherently distasteful about a middle aged man, not involved with law enforcement, getting worked into a lather over naked children. It's creepy.
Thanks for the post... I like being reminded about this stuff - I hope it's the nudge I need to actually start using the health club I'm paying for:P (I get home totally wasted after 12+ hs work, but probably only brain-wise, but I can't bring myself to go exercise).
Thanks! I knew that this kind of salary was in the tax-free bracket but I didn't know from where on it became taxed. I won't mind though... I'm taxed at 25% here because I'm supposedly "middle-class":P for way less money
Still haven't made up 100% my mind (and the papers:P ) though, so I still have about 1-2 years' wait.
That's not to say there aren't educated programmers that come from developing countries. Every once in a while a hard working family will be able to afford an education, and once they have that education, they usually fly stateside to make more money. They know that with their education they can be making way more money than 4400 USD a year. So they go and tack an extra digit to that paycheck, keep half and the other half is more than enough to either fly the family to the States or support them in India.
Here in Uruguay, South America (a popular but small outsourcing country) we have an even higher % of IT graduates per population than the US, (higher education is "free", as in, you don't have to indebt to hell - it's still not easy for a family to support an university student, but it's way easier than starting years into debt), so your "every once in a while" claim does not apply in this case. I don't know about India but I suspect the # of programmers is more than enough to hire some competent ones at far less than the US equivalent.
As someone with a degree, and making U$S 15000 (after taxes) a year, I know that I could be making WAY more money in a developed country (I know I would be taken at U$ 4000 / month by my mother's employers in Canada for instance), but you saying that everybody with a degree "usually" flies Stateside is a broad exaggeration... there aren't enough visas/green cards for even one tenth of graduates in my country. I've discarded the US as a place to emigrate to (though I'd like to).
Basically what it boils down to, they're going to get some guy who can talk the talk but not walk the walk. He'll agree to $4400 a year for as long as he can hold the job since he was only make $1000 a year back at his old job. Because anyone who knows what they're doing knows they are worth more.
You wouldn't find anyone trained here willing to work for U$S 4400 a year... but you could for something like U$S 8000 a year, which is still way less than you'd pay for in the US. We have more than 5000 programmers doing exactly that (Tata, the Indian outsourcing company, has a big outsourcing center here in Uruguay).
Heck, I personally would do it for U$ 20000 a year (a dollar goes a long way longer here than in the US, as long as you're not into cars or electronics) - so you could get what I consider equivalent work for much less money - in fact that is why trade works:) There are other problems inherent to outsourcing, but don't think that the main one would be programming skills (hiring, management, communications,etc...).
yeah, maybe someone should ask why management isn't wearing department specific garments that say "management" on them.
What do you think a tie actually is?
That's something I find very different from where I live (Uruguay). Over here, all professionals are expected to wear a suit, and that includes college graduates from IT (not help desk, but that does include some programmers).
So, I wear a suit everyday and don't find it odd, I actually like it (some development-only shops have a more relaxed attitude, but they also don't usually employ that many graduate professionals).
When I finally got out of that crap and started playing, the first game I entered started with me walking all of four feet before being shot and killed.
No joke, four feet.
Heh... my first time at a paintball range (which is the closest I've been to actually being shot at:P) I also lasted all of four feet.
Made me realize even more I'd NEVER ever want to live a solider's life (unless it's the videogamey one ).
Exactly. But Negroponte is about PR and vapor, not producing actual solutions or products.
So, ignoring the rest of what OLPC has delivered, the 380,000+ computers in the hands of Uruguayan students that have raised the average computer literacy of 8 year olds to the average level of 18 year olds prior to the project aren't "actual solutions or products"?
I happen to be Uruguayan and currently live in Uruguay... and while I endorse the OLPC project in my country (Plan Ceibal), I'd say you're grossly exaggerating its results - we already had a very good literacy prior to it (as in, better than the US), and the XO itself might not even have been the cheapest option.
Though if the OLPC project had not existed, I doubt such a far-reaching and ambitious plan would have been implemented, so even if it was more PR than anything, it WAS important, in making the politician's minds open to the possibility (and it was a HUGE selling point for politicians of the current party in power at the recent elections which they won).
Slashdot Mirror
We had a case recently where there was an odd source of infection on a supposedly secure PC... seems the user was more tech-savvy than most, and purchased a 3G USB modem and then proceeded to spread spyware all over the place with his browsing (to be fair he had an extremely boring job but...)
It IS available for most of us (us being people reading /.)
Hmm... I'd be willing to bet that half the readership is not physically in the U.S. (see for example the 4th of July poll - 55% voted it meant "nothing" or "something else")
Across the river, in Argentina, I'm making 5 pounds, about 8 USD, after taxes too. I'm underpaid too, as there is a higher salary in most other companies.
Yes, Argentina has higher salaries for IT, I'd heard that. And Chile, even better.
Thank you for your suggestion.
I'm seriously contemplating taking that plunge, I've been afraid to leave the safety net of the easy 8 to 6 job, though
Uruguay has laws that promote staying in a steady job - if I got fired, I'd get 3 months's salary as compensation plus 6 months of unemployment benefits, against being in the local IRS equivalent's target if you freelance online.
Still, I do believe I'd make way more on Elance or similar. Thanks again, I just have to gather the nerve (and some small savings).
Stop accepting what they offer, and demand more.
When there's more than half the programming workforce making less than I do? Not a good idea.
:) ), and employing people for 3 pounds sterling :P
I plan on starting my own company and selling stuff to the U.S. and Europe (seriously
Er... yeah, seriously... you're being taken for a ride. Minimum wage is nearly double that and a legal requirement...(snip) If you are genuinely working for a large and well known corporation, time to name and shame them.
He's in Romania, similar situation to mine I guess. Here in Uruguay, all the major corps (and McDonalds of course) pay way less than 3 pounds sterling per hour. McDonalds in particular pays about 80 pounds a month.
In case you haven't read the FAQ, /. is a US centric website.
Hi Mr. Coward, I know you've been around forever, but I've been posting here since 2005 :) - I think I picked that up :)
I was just trying to point out (somewhat sarcastically) to those that wonder "who would sign up for this, when Wal-mart is available", that no, it's NOT available for most of us ("us" being the 6 billion and a half of non-US citizens).
what can you buy for £3 in Uruguay?
Let's see - assuming 3 pounds is roughly 100 Uruguayan Pesos:
* 10 loaves of bread
* 50 cigarettes (2 packs and a half)
* 6 bus tickets and change
More interestingly:
* A kilo of nice, prime quality beef
* 6 liters of milk
* Dinner for two (cheap) or a good meal for one, dining out
* An hour of cleaning lady
* Two shifts of laundry at a laundromat (with service, not self-service)
The government index for basic food for a family for a month is set at 72 pounds ( http://www.dgc-mef.gub.uy/consultas/almacen/canastas/mensual/ ), so 24 hours of hypothetical work could feed a family for a month.
I pay U$ 200 for rent (16 square meters apartment), average is about U$ 400 - but they don't include all the amenities included in an US rent.
Anything electronics or luxury imports are HEAVILY taxed, we probably have the most expensive cars in the world, and stuff like consoles cost 300% of US price, etc.
You can check the prices on an expensive supermarket with an online webpage, Tienda Inglesa: http://www.tinglesa.com.uy/frames.asp
Money is paid to USA and Indian workers only. Everyone else gets to use their earnings as gift certificates at amazon.com.
Didn't know about that, how annoying - but it's standard to have problems collecting over here - Paypal doesn't have bank accounts here either IIRC.
It adds one more step: buy something at Amazon, smuggle it in here and then sell it at a huge profit, as taxes here are outrageous - a Kindle can be easily sold for U$ 300 or more - the Sony reader sells for U$ 600 at a shopping center. Even better, books and CDs can be imported legitimately so it wouldn't be smuggling (you have to pay the heavy shipping costs though).
In all, if you're materialistic and US-centric (like I am) it sucks a bit to live in Uruguay (too bad the US is currently so harsh on immigrants, not to mention emigrating is hard - leaving family and friends behind and all that)
Not to mention it's "extra" income (on top of whatever salary they have), and probably untaxed.
They pay $8 in a nice, clean, air conditioned environment.
So US-centric. Please point me to the nearest Wal-Mart here in Montevideo (Uruguay, South America) that pays those wages, and I'll sign up instantly.
I've got news for you... I have a degree in Information Systems, and I work for 3 pounds sterling an hour (of course my employer gets a discount rate since I work for them 200 hours a month guaranteed, and it's after-taxes money - Government gets 40% of what I make before taxes since I'm obviously "rich").
You think filling out YouGov forms or whatever (hadn't heard of them before) for that same amount of money isn't a good deal?
I live in Montevideo, Uruguay, and yes, I believe I will eventually make better money, but over half the programmers here make less than that.
Ahh.. but you haven't seen this documentary that unveils all: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0239395/
You know, some countries in South America have such serious problems inspiring confidence, that Argentina ran ad campaigns on neighbouring countries and potential investors touting themselves as "a Serious Country" ("Argentina, un país en serio").
At the same time they were stealing from the pension funds, setting a blockade to the neighbouring country Uruguay (where I come from), and lots of other stuff (just search for the words of the ad, and you'll find lots of criticism). Not to mention they had just defaulted from their debt and all that.
And actually, Costa Rica is one of the most serious countries in Latin America, and way more credible than their "joke" neighbours.
IDK about the US, but over here withdrawing from the teller costs money, and you're subject to the absurd working hours of the bank.
OTOH, if you withdraw from the ATM you're liable to the sort of things you mention (I'm still out U$ 300 from the Bank Boston - now Banco Itaú in Uruguay, and will never do business with them again whenever possible, from an ATM failure that resulted on withdrawal from my account without me receiving the money, and even appealing to the bank didn't work)
Anyone who's been a systems administrator for many years has probably dealt with Novell at one point or another in their career.
And Novell NetWare was ROCK SOLID as a file server. I have good memories of that. OTOH, it was basically not very flexible, and GroupWise sucked when last I saw it.
There's just something inherently distasteful about a middle aged man, not involved with law enforcement, getting worked into a lather over naked children. It's creepy.
You reminded me of this article: http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/07/05/the_nature_of_temptation/ which indeed validates your theory
There's also Australia and South Africa (though I'm in South America myself)
Thanks for the post... I like being reminded about this stuff - I hope it's the nudge I need to actually start using the health club I'm paying for :P (I get home totally wasted after 12+ hs work, but probably only brain-wise, but I can't bring myself to go exercise).
Thanks! I knew that this kind of salary was in the tax-free bracket but I didn't know from where on it became taxed. I won't mind though... I'm taxed at 25% here because I'm supposedly "middle-class" :P for way less money
:P ) though, so I still have about 1-2 years' wait.
Still haven't made up 100% my mind (and the papers
You get what you pay for.
That's not to say there aren't educated programmers that come from developing countries. Every once in a while a hard working family will be able to afford an education, and once they have that education, they usually fly stateside to make more money. They know that with their education they can be making way more money than 4400 USD a year. So they go and tack an extra digit to that paycheck, keep half and the other half is more than enough to either fly the family to the States or support them in India.
Here in Uruguay, South America (a popular but small outsourcing country) we have an even higher % of IT graduates per population than the US, (higher education is "free", as in, you don't have to indebt to hell - it's still not easy for a family to support an university student, but it's way easier than starting years into debt), so your "every once in a while" claim does not apply in this case. I don't know about India but I suspect the # of programmers is more than enough to hire some competent ones at far less than the US equivalent.
As someone with a degree, and making U$S 15000 (after taxes) a year, I know that I could be making WAY more money in a developed country (I know I would be taken at U$ 4000 / month by my mother's employers in Canada for instance), but you saying that everybody with a degree "usually" flies Stateside is a broad exaggeration... there aren't enough visas/green cards for even one tenth of graduates in my country. I've discarded the US as a place to emigrate to (though I'd like to).
Basically what it boils down to, they're going to get some guy who can talk the talk but not walk the walk. He'll agree to $4400 a year for as long as he can hold the job since he was only make $1000 a year back at his old job. Because anyone who knows what they're doing knows they are worth more.
You wouldn't find anyone trained here willing to work for U$S 4400 a year... but you could for something like U$S 8000 a year, which is still way less than you'd pay for in the US. We have more than 5000 programmers doing exactly that (Tata, the Indian outsourcing company, has a big outsourcing center here in Uruguay).
:) There are other problems inherent to outsourcing, but don't think that the main one would be programming skills (hiring, management, communications,etc...).
Heck, I personally would do it for U$ 20000 a year (a dollar goes a long way longer here than in the US, as long as you're not into cars or electronics) - so you could get what I consider equivalent work for much less money - in fact that is why trade works
Amen to that... I knew being a teetotaler had a downside :P (yeah, no girlfriend over here either... though it's partly by choice).
yeah, maybe someone should ask why management isn't wearing department specific garments that say "management" on them.
What do you think a tie actually is?
That's something I find very different from where I live (Uruguay). Over here, all professionals are expected to wear a suit, and that includes college graduates from IT (not help desk, but that does include some programmers).
So, I wear a suit everyday and don't find it odd, I actually like it (some development-only shops have a more relaxed attitude, but they also don't usually employ that many graduate professionals).
When I finally got out of that crap and started playing, the first game I entered started with me walking all of four feet before being shot and killed.
No joke, four feet.
Heh... my first time at a paintball range (which is the closest I've been to actually being shot at :P) I also lasted all of four feet.
Made me realize even more I'd NEVER ever want to live a solider's life (unless it's the videogamey one ).
So, ignoring the rest of what OLPC has delivered, the 380,000+ computers in the hands of Uruguayan students that have raised the average computer literacy of 8 year olds to the average level of 18 year olds prior to the project aren't "actual solutions or products"?
I happen to be Uruguayan and currently live in Uruguay... and while I endorse the OLPC project in my country (Plan Ceibal), I'd say you're grossly exaggerating its results - we already had a very good literacy prior to it (as in, better than the US), and the XO itself might not even have been the cheapest option.
Though if the OLPC project had not existed, I doubt such a far-reaching and ambitious plan would have been implemented, so even if it was more PR than anything, it WAS important, in making the politician's minds open to the possibility (and it was a HUGE selling point for politicians of the current party in power at the recent elections which they won).