Six-Dimensional Space-Time Theory

eldavojohn writes "PhysOrg is covering an interesting year-old paper that proposes an alternative six-dimensional theory of space and time. George Sparling's proposition, based on Einstein's general relativity and Elie Cartan's triality, is a twistor space (which I've only read of in Roger Penrose's latest work). The gist is that space-time is modeled not by four dimensions but by six, and that the extra two dimensions are time-like. Sparling is hoping that tests from the Large Hadron Collider will help prove his theory. The paper is heavy but the PhysOrg article summarizes it nicely."

Comments

Mods on crack again

[Harmonious Botch]

Parent was modded 'flambait'?

Number of the Beast

[rossdee]

Hmm 6 dimensions, 3 of space and 3 of time...

Definately sounds like Jacob Burrough's theory (from the book by R A Heinlein)

Re:The Dig

[Jarjarthejedi]

Wow...you called it. Though looking at that game it actually is pretty relevant. Don't know which mod thought to mod it troll...wish I had the mod points to undo it but hopefully it'll be noticed by someone who does.

Time's fun when you're having flies

[Nefarious Wheel]

...quoth Kermit. I'd say it's more likely your brain is compressing detail when time seems to fly by quickly (no point in storing repetitive detail, is there?) and analyzing potential means of escape in high-res when time seems to drag.

Or to put it succinctly, time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana (thanks Noam).

Re:Consequences of three dimensional time?

[Coryoth]

I read the article, but I really don't understand the consequences of the theory. What would it mean for there to be more than one time dimension? That's really not at all clear. They aren't so much extra "time" dimensions as in extra directions of time, as extra time-like dimensions which has a specific meaning that refers to how they behave in calculating space-time distances. Ultimately they are the product of a purely mathematical model and, unless the author has something more in mind than is presented in the paper, exactly what sort of physical interpretation they might have is utterly unclear.

Of course mathematical models sometimes help us frame ideas about physical reality that we have trouble otherwise perceiving. Lorentz and Poincare developed much of the mathematics of special relativity as a mathematical model of electrodynamics using an "apparent time" that they viewed as an artificial mathematical construct necessary to make the model work. Einstein provided the insight that this "artificial" time was actually a real effect by making a conceptual shift about what simultaneity means, and special relativity was born.

For now the extra time-like dimensions are simply artificial creations of a mathematical model, we still await an insight to explain how they fit in with our own pereceptions of the universe.

Re:The Dig

[FFFish]

Dig was, and I mean this without exaggeration, fucking awesome.

Re:Consequences of three dimensional time?

[Coryoth]

Either things move through time like they move through space (i.e. when they move somewhere they're no longer at their old position which would require some kind of metatime Things don't "move through space" in a space-time model, rather they trace out a curve through the comined 4-dimensional space-time (and by trace, I mean "exist as", there is no progression here). In the 6-dimensional version presumably it would simply be a curve in this 6-space. There is no need to invoke a "meta-time". Indeed, despite our natural intuition that time is some absolute thing that is somehow "outside the universe" marking of its progression, special (and then general) relativity was about folding time in and realising that it time itself is relative. It is tricky to think about easily as it goes against native intuition, but with a little practice you can get the hang of it.

Re:Consequences of three dimensional time?

[thefirelane]

Hi, I'm not a physicist, and I didn't read the article, but I think I can help you out

Could that help explain human temporal perception (you can "feel" time slow down or time flies by when having fun)?
No

Can our consciousness span more or less of these other dimensions of time at need?
No

Would this help explain the apparent causality problem of neuromuscular control (humans seem able to send the neural command to catch the ball before our senses could have delivered the signal that it should be caught)?
No

Could the existence of extra time dimensions have implications regarding the existence of free will?
No

You're welcome.

Why call them consequences ?

[tibike77]

Well, what about a slight point of view shift instead ?
Do you ever think of yourself "well, this object is 3m away on the x axis, 4m away of the y axis, and 5 m away on the z axis" ? Or do you just think to yourself "this object is about 7m away" ? And then, your other senses tell you what direction the object is ?
So why assume whatever it is we call "time" is actually time, when instead it could be just as well the "time-like total distance", and we just lack the sensory equipment to differentiate (or orientate ourselves) in the 3-dimensional time-like variable ?

Now, we are moving almost in the realm of supernatural here (won't say tinfoilhattery... yet), but what if all "extraordinary abilities" some people pretend they have MIGHT actually be real to a certain degree, and the only thing differentiating a "normal" person from "them" is that they can somehow perceive at least one or both of the other "time-like" dimensions... and even "manipulate" matter independently alongside each of them ? To somebody who lacks the proper senses, it can appear as something impossible, when in fact it's just something unperceivable ?

Well, it's just a far-fetched theory, but who knows ?

Re:Cranks love their Tesla

[salec]

What is it about Tesla that attracts the kooks?

That's an easy one:

- spectacular (unlike subatomic particles physics ones which are observed only indirectly, over sensor arrays and computer imagery), high energy experiments, plus
- his own tendency to perform publicity stunts and make bombastic, yet sherlock-holmes-esque mysterious announcements (because... Tesla was independent, not academic researcher and was always on a hunt for venture capital) about his future work, plus,
- on top of it all his failure to accomplish something he announced, which could had been very revolutionary in every sense (perhaps most notable being social sense) of that word, apparently not because it was physically impossible, but because he was pulled back by "The Man", gave him an aureole of saint-like hero in eyes of a common man (as well as kooks).

There are numerous examples that oral traditions attach mythical supernatural (or at least greater than actual) powers to beloved heroes in collective folk memory. Tesla is one of most recent of such characters and perhaps first that transcended national and ethnic barriers (after all, in his own mind his public was global). Other notable popular hero figures are, of course, Einstein, Mahatma Gandhi, Bruce Lee, Mother Theresa, ... (apologies for anyone left out of the list)... but those of them who (apparently) didn't fulfill their full perceived potential will of course generate more legends (Bruce Lee). Well, the same goes for legend-generating potential of antiheroes (no mentions, we DON'T say their cursed, wicked names aloud :D !), more so because they tend to be stopped in their tracks more often (if they don't, as some notable dictators who died of old age, they don't make it into legends and quickly fade into oblivion).

Scientists love their Tesla, too

[fyngyrz]

All of that may have various degrees of truth to it, but you're being quite unfair by not mentioning that another key factor was that the things Tesla actually accomplished and demonstrated, many of which have found their way into our current common base of technology, were quite spectacular in terms of utility, innovation, and being leading edge for the time.

Many researchers, academic and independent, spend their entire lives trying to come up with just one useful idea. Tesla produced them regularly and dependably.

I often wonder what Tesla would have come up with if he was living and working in our current technological / scientific environment. In my view, the man seemed to think so far "out of the box" that you couldn't even find the box from where he was.

Re:Missing something. . .

[Anonymous Coward]

Your post was quite funny till I got to the last bit.

Spelling and language skills tend to decay the further toward the "Insanity" end of the spectrum one travels. Interestingly, I've read Right Wing screeds which don't fare much better in the language department. Learn to discern. And the same of course naturally applies to left wing "screed" as well. Your truism speaks highly to your objectivity!