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Digital Media Archiving Challenges Hollywood

HarryCaul writes "Movies are moving to digital, but what about long-term archiving of the master source materials? Turns out it's harder for digital media than for contemporary analog. Data is being lost, and studios have to learn to cope. Phil Feiner of the AMPAS sci-tech division says when he worked on studio feature films he 'found missing frames or corrupted data on 40% of the data tapes that came in from digital intermediate houses' How to deal with it? Regular migration from old media to new media. Grover Crisp, says Sony has put in a program of migrating every two to three years. Other studios are following suit, but what about indie features? Will we lose films like we lost the originals of the 20s?"

155 comments

  1. Bitorrent? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Sounds like a good archival method to me...

    1. Re:Bitorrent? by xerent_sweden · · Score: 5, Funny

      Wouldn't it be great if in 50 years the only version left of [Insert Future Classic Movie] was a screener with watermarks?

    2. Re:Bitorrent? by plams · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and go have a look for the 'CAM' and 'TS' keywords on your favorite torrent search site. Those buggers sure know how to archive the crap out of analog media.

    3. Re:Bitorrent? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Have you ever tried to get any non-blockbuster released more than 3 weeks ago? Definitely not on Bittorrent. Maybe ed2k. Torrents are for spreading very popular stuff fast.

    4. Re:Bitorrent? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Archival storage is a known problem with good solutions (like the stuff from Permabit which I work for). Our solution uses a combination of redundancy, huge checksums, and continual rereading of the data to ensure that things stayed archived even as components like disks, power-supplies, processors, etc., fail.

  2. Simple solution: redundancy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If they are concerned about digital data being lost: why not introduce redundancy? Make sure that the data is stored at many locations as possible (and also with a high quality). Luckily the Internet already has a solution for this problem: BitTorrent.

    1. Re:Simple solution: redundancy by HeroreV · · Score: 2, Insightful

      BitTorrent is a way to transfer information, not to store it. BitTorrent wouldn't help any here.

      Maybe you were trying to say a solution would be making the materials available to the general public and hoping they archive the data. Somehow I don't think many people are interesting in downloading hundreds of gigs of raw footage and keeping a torrent going for decades.

  3. Tell the MPAA about Linus' quote by bheer · · Score: 3, Funny

    "... only wimps use backup: _real_ men just upload their important stuff on ftp, and let the rest of the world mirror it."

    I think it'd work well for the MPAA.

  4. What are the odds... by EveryNickIsTaken · · Score: 2, Funny

    They can manage to "lose" the digital masters for every film Nicholas Cage has been in?

  5. This is not a problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Movies that suck will be lost.

    Movies that do not suck will be turned into AVI (or MP4 for the quality nitpickers who watch movies in front of their PC).

    Hollywood produces them. Piracy sorts them.

    1. Re:This is not a problem by Wolvie+MkM · · Score: 1

      Thank god I'll be able to still get Soul Plane in 50 years... (whew)

      --
      I Like Pie...
  6. The old ways are the best. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Archive final cut to 35mm film.

    1. Re:The old ways are the best. by streetphantom · · Score: 3, Funny

      The record industry has gone back to analogue tape. But.. you could store film data in a lazer beam and fire it off into space. Then, once we invent lightspeed transport, we can fly past the lazer beam and then recollect the data.

    2. Re:The old ways are the best. by Vampyre_Dark · · Score: 4, Funny

      How long until the pirates launch a giant 'mirror' (pun intended)?

    3. Re:The old ways are the best. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is hilarious. I love it!

    4. Re:The old ways are the best. by streetphantom · · Score: 1

      Has anybody patented giant mirrors yet? Puns aside, you might be onto something big (hehe).

    5. Re:The old ways are the best. by jZnat · · Score: 1

      What about movies shot using a 70mm lens? Hmm?

      --
      'Yes, firefox is indeed greater than women. Can women block pops up for you? No. Can Firefox show you naked women? Yes.'
    6. Re:The old ways are the best. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It always amazes me when people argue in digital 'its kind of hard to lose just 1 or 0',
      never realizing that any application that uses digital has so much information to store that
      some loss is unavoidable. Yes, if you work with just a single digit you're pretty safe, but with
      the amount of data for real world applications some of the 1s and 0s are lost, even with error
      correction and slowng the read speed down. I always here about copying a CD to make a bit for bit
      copy. To the best of my knowledge, this simply isn't possible.

    7. Re:The old ways are the best. by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Then, once we invent lightspeed transport, we can fly past the lazer beam

      I think FTL drives, as in faster than light would be recommended. Otherwise you might find it a bit hard to catch up...

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    8. Re:The old ways are the best. by redcane · · Score: 1

      Umm, that is part of the point of CDs.... They have error correction built in, so that you should (up to a certain point of physical degradation) get a bit for bit copy. IN fact this is required for things like computer programs to be stored on them. If you corrupt one bit in an executable, it *will* crash when it hits that code, but yet cds seem to be able to store executables ok...

  7. use a data vault by eneville · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    Personally, I'd like to see methods like OpenAFS with a RAID/SAN data store. A great benefit of AFS is that it's ideal to work over a large IP network. Every night issue a update for all the nodes, a little like rsync I suppose in this respect, but it's ideal for a large infrastructure. Of course things like MD5 sums should be used on the files, perhaps split the large files with RAR or something, maybe use a .PAR file also. You know.. I think the pirate world has this sort of thing sorted already. Why don't the media giants take a leaf out of their book and see how others in the volatile world cope? Maybe they could use newsgroups for data retention?

    1. Re:use a data vault by JamesTRexx · · Score: 1

      Splitting the data files wouldn't be enough. You'll need at least 3 copies to compare against one another to see if there's bitrot. If there's a difference in one file compared to the other two it is most likely that part is corrupted, and it should be overwritten by the data from the other copies.
      I don't know how redundant .par files are, but if it can be redundant like this it should work.

      --
      home
    2. Re:use a data vault by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Three copies? Ever heard of error correction and checksums?

    3. Re:use a data vault by eneville · · Score: 1

      Splitting the data files wouldn't be enough. You'll need at least 3 copies to compare against one another to see if there's bitrot. If there's a difference in one file compared to the other two it is most likely that part is corrupted, and it should be overwritten by the data from the other copies.
      I don't know how redundant .par files are, but if it can be redundant like this it should work. well this is where AFS comes into it's own. its a DFS so adding replica sites is quite easy, then the normal admin tasks of daily checksums from the MD5s come into play. then either rebuild from the .par or deal with it manually. personally if i were running thing's i'd have AFS to multiple data centres, or just house the stuff onsite. which ever is easiest. i imagine that this sort of data would extend to having daily/weekly backups of employee data on there also, things like video edits.
    4. Re:use a data vault by JamesTRexx · · Score: 1

      If there is corruption, how can an automated system be sure it's the data or the checksum that's corrupt? To make sure you'd need two undamaged copies to tell which is the third corrupt copy.
      With data storage getting larger and cheaper there's no reason to not have 3 copies of data. And the more copies the more reliable the consistency of the data.

      --
      home
    5. Re:use a data vault by JamesTRexx · · Score: 1

      As far as I can see about AFS is indeed the DFS structure, but on top of that would have to be a process which would check for differences between the volumes and correct any faults.
      The issue here wouldn't be so much as having a distributed set of data for better availability, but having a system that can detect and automatically correct data corruption.
      This is not something I can find as a feature in the AFS FAQ.

      --
      home
    6. Re:use a data vault by eneville · · Score: 1

      As far as I can see about AFS is indeed the DFS structure, but on top of that would have to be a process which would check for differences between the volumes and correct any faults.
      The issue here wouldn't be so much as having a distributed set of data for better availability, but having a system that can detect and automatically correct data corruption.
      This is not something I can find as a feature in the AFS FAQ. no, it's not. but it's in the system admin 101. this is something that the system admin has to cope with. hence why the md5 should be stored.
    7. Re:use a data vault by alphamugwump · · Score: 1

      It's called error *correction* for a reason. You can take information and spread it out over more bits, in a way so that you can correct up to one error, up to two errors, and so on. And it's way more efficient than making three copies. With simple replication, if each of the three files is different in different places, you're screwed. Also with checksums, the checksum is much shorter than your 40GB raws, and there is much less chance of screwing it up.

      I'm sure there's plenty of research on this sort of thing. Ideally you'd use a system like bittorrent: just a bunch of small, redundant nodes each hosting pieces, and each piece checksummed. Ideally, all that would be handled transparently by your filesystem. Unfortunately, if such a thing exists, it hasn't really become mainstream yet.

    8. Re:use a data vault by JamesTRexx · · Score: 1

      With simple replication, if each of the three files is different in different places, you're screwed.

      Actually, then you're not. As long as the corrupt part of the file is okay in the other two that part can be retrieved (you don't check the file as a whole but block by block). So as you said yourself, as long as the three files are different in different places it doesn't matter.
      Only if two of the files have the same part corrupted does it become a manual job to retrieve the right part. But then I think there's much less chance of two copies being corrupt than one. And if it's still not good enough, get four or more copies.

      --
      home
    9. Re:use a data vault by Gunstick · · Score: 1

      > Unfortunately, if such a thing exists, it hasn't really become mainstream yet.

      EMC centera http://www.emc.com/products/systems/centera.jsp

      --
      Atari rules... ermm... ruled.
  8. Just wait until they lose the DRM keys by BlueParrot · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This will only get worse because they insist on the stupid DRM schemes. If a drive crashes you can usually recover a fair portion of the data, if the drive is heavily encrypted and the crash takes out the key to your cipher, then you are fairly fucked. Sure, it is fine today when everybody and his mother has a HDMI compliant player, but with the amount of key-revocations that will likely be necessary as the scheme is cracked over and over again, sooner or latter the increasing complexity of key-management will cause them to start getting lost. The issue is further complicated by having the "plain-text" all in a central place rather than in everybody's home, a hurricane could easily take out a decade's worth of art that way. Of course none of this will happen because the people who make decisions about where the unencrypted originals are stored have a good understanding of how cryptography works, which is why we have DRM to begin with ...

    1. Re:Just wait until they lose the DRM keys by lord+sibn · · Score: 1

      Thankfully, DRM is fundamentally broken and does not work. Whatever the scheme, there is a way around it.

    2. Re:Just wait until they lose the DRM keys by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 2, Funny

      I can see it now...

      RIAA: Hello? Is this DVD Jon? No! Wait! Don't hang up. We have an... awkward... favor to ask.

    3. Re:Just wait until they lose the DRM keys by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

      "This will only get worse because they insist on the stupid DRM schemes. If a drive crashes you can usually recover a fair portion of the data, if the drive is heavily encrypted and the crash takes out the key to your cipher, then you are fairly fucked."

      DRM is for mass-market items like DVDs, not master copies. I hate DRM as much as the next guy but let's not take this to a level of silliness.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    4. Re:Just wait until they lose the DRM keys by Anonymous+McCartneyf · · Score: 1

      Okay. So what happens if the master copies are destroyed (say, a fire starts at the film storage facility) and only mass-produced copies are left?
      Are the film studios allowed to use DeCSS if it's the only way they can make new copies of certain films?
      If there are both good DVDs and not-so-good VHS tapes remaining after the master copies of the film are destroyed, will the DMCA force the studios to use the VHS tapes for their reconstructions?

      --
      There is a fine line between recklessness and courage... -- Paul McCartney
    5. Re:Just wait until they lose the DRM keys by Chris+Pimlott · · Score: 1

      Exactly! There's a number of old films where the only copy is not in a studio's film vault somewhere but in the home of a passionate collector. If that copy is in a mass-market format like DVD, we'll lose some of original film print's quality but it'll still be a good representation of the film. But if that copy is an iTunes downloaded video, it's not going to be worth anything at all if iTunes is not still up and running. Which, in 70 years time, would not be surprising at all.

  9. Digital storage not an issue by xerent_sweden · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...but codecs are. Chances are we'll have the information in another hundred years but not the means to access it.

    1. Re:Digital storage not an issue by makomk · · Score: 1

      ...but codecs are. Chances are we'll have the information in another hundred years but not the means to access it.

      I'm not convinced this is really a problem. Just make sure you choose widely-used file formats and codecs that are supported properly by ffmpeg, and as long as open source software survives people will probably be able to find a way to play them in 100 years' time. (If we're particularly lucky, they may still be playable with standard, widely-available media player applications. That's much less certain, however.)

  10. Sigh, how many times must we go over this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Tape backup has a limited shelf life. There is an effect known as "bleed through" that degrades data simply because of the physical layout of magnetic tape backup. This maximum shelf life of data on quality DDS media is about five years, therefore data on tape must be renewed in intervals less than the "best before" date.

    Additionally, daily backup tapes (differential or complete) have limited write cycles and must be replaced well before the manufacturers recommended maximum write cycles is exceeded.

    Obviously optical media is not an acceptable backup solution, due to its many failure points. Tape is still the best, despite the requirement for periodic renewal.

    Digital archiving 101 - get with it people.

    1. Re:Sigh, how many times must we go over this? by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Obviously optical media is not an acceptable backup solution, due to its many failure points.

      However, what if they sent data that needs to be archived permanently through the first stages of the DVD mastering process, and produced an etched glass master disk. It seems to me that such a disk should last forever as long as it is protected from physical damage.

      To avoid damage from creating new DVD stampers from the master if it needs to be read, maybe they could create a special archival reader based on electron microscope or something similar that could read the master disk directly without touching it.

    2. Re:Sigh, how many times must we go over this? by foobsr · · Score: 1

      http://www.elpj.com/main.html

      At least similar.

      CC.

      --
      TaijiQuan (Huang, 5 loosenings)
    3. Re:Sigh, how many times must we go over this? by richard.cs · · Score: 1

      I like that idea, If it's etched into the glass it should be pretty permanant (well at least until some moron drops it ;-)). The only downside I can see is the number needed to store the data. Using only the first stage should keep the cost down a lot though since all they're really doing is using a dvd burner with a much more powerful laser. I can't see any reason a glass master couldn't be read with a laser in a similar way to a DVD, no need for an electron microscope.

    4. Re:Sigh, how many times must we go over this? by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      This process would of course kill the whole marketing concept of buying the same content over and aver again (but it's better because it is a higher quality). At least with analogue you can sustain the marketing lie now matter how poorly the original analogue content was recorded.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
  11. Two problems: loss and obsolescence by davidwr · · Score: 5, Interesting

    There are two problems:
    Data loss, where the data is actually lost. This is the equivalent of a scratch on a frame of the master negative. The cure is redundancy.

    Obsolescence, where the format becomes difficult to read after a period of time. The cure is lossless copying to new formats over time and/or keeping old equipment around.

    Another possible cure the the 2nd problem is to convert it to analog in an "easy to digitize" way.

    For example, simply "printing" the movie to 3 black-and-white filmstrips, one for each color, is considered archival. These can be rescanned later if needed. For better archiving, use larger film formats.
    Preserve each audio track in an archival analog format as well.

    Of course this doesn't preserve all the data that a digital filmmaking process has, but you aren't any worse off than you would have been with an analog film.

    If you want to, you can preserve each element of each scene separately, in an analog format or a completely-documented digital format but on an archival media, such as a "paper printout" stored on microfilm. I don't think most movie studios will go to this expense.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
    1. Re:Two problems: loss and obsolescence by XorNand · · Score: 1

      Instead of printing the actual picture to analog film, what about encoding the digital stream into a high-density barcode and printing it to microfilm? I have no idea how much media this would take but it could be completely lossless on an analog medium.

      --
      Entrepreneur : (noun), French for "unemployed"
    2. Re:Two problems: loss and obsolescence by MindStalker · · Score: 1

      If you want to, you can preserve each element of each scene separately, in an analog format or a completely-documented digital format but on an archival media, such as a "paper printout" stored on microfilm. I don't think most movie studios will go to this expense.

      It cost millions to make a movie.. Why not.

    3. Re:Two problems: loss and obsolescence by Anonymous+McCartneyf · · Score: 1

      Fun facts:
      Before 1912, films could not be copyrighted. Photographs, however, could be copyrighted if a print was filed with the Library of Congress.
      Thomas Edison and other filmmakers got copyrights for their films by telling the Library of Congress they were submitting a long string of photographs, which was technically true. They submitted to the Library of Congress long strips of paper containing prints of every frame in the film.
      Many years later, people discovered how to make film negatives from the strips of paper that represented those early films. This technique was used to reprint early films in film formats.
      For this reason, there is presumed to be a lower percentage of films lost before 1912 than during the later silent era. Once films could be copyrighted as films, they were submitted as films. Alas, nitrate negatives often don't keep well.

      --
      There is a fine line between recklessness and courage... -- Paul McCartney
  12. Now if only Lucas had done this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    to the original Star Wars. Supposedly he has no original copies from which to return the original classic to us (Laserdisc work-arounds notwithstanding)

    I doubt his word on this, but if true, he's a bigger fool that Ep 1 made him appear. In any case, its a great case for multiple digital back-ups.

    1. Re:Now if only Lucas had done this by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      to the original Star Wars. Supposedly he has no original copies from which to return the original classic to us (Laserdisc work-arounds notwithstanding)

      I doubt his word on this, but if true, he's a bigger fool that Ep 1 made him appear. In any case, its a great case for multiple digital back-ups.


      Cost may play a role as well - as important as it is for film history to save as much as possible, how may film makers in the early stages of a career have the money to produce high quality, redundant backups? And then maintain their viability over the years?

      Sure strage is cheap - but who can be sure the hardware will be usable in say 50 years? Can a disk last that long without being spun up regularly? Is optical disk / flash memory archival over time? Will the hardware be readable on whatever computer is in use then or will it be like trying to read an 8" CP/M disk today? Of course, then there is the codec issue as well.

      Lucas was dealing in analog which make it even more difficult to properly archive copies for posterity.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    2. Re:Now if only Lucas had done this by jacksonj04 · · Score: 1

      On the subject of disks, RAID etc I remember and article about Google's data storage, and how more could be added to the pool and have redundancy etc automatically dealt with.

      Why can't the archive make use of a similar, media independent system? As long as there is some capability in the system to talk to a) the old media and b) the new media (Which can easily be achieved as long as the system is used, because hardware and software are easy enough to build 'bridges' into) then updating the archive is no more complex than adding whatever the latest readily available mass storage is, and letting old and defunct hardware vanish off the far end.

      The system itself does all the data integrity, moving data around to make sure it's always available in a couple of places etc so in the event of an old array failing, it just goes "Ah, I've lost that copy. Better make a new one on this new empty array here to make sure I've still got X copies".

      On the codec front, again the automation should help make this easier. Presuming the studios are too stupid to archive in a straight file format (Won't surprise me) the system could still be programmed to do the conversion. As long as it can read the old filetype and write the new one, it can be set to automatically update archives to the latest format.

      A massive amount of work certainly, and of course it'll need some ongoing support to make sure the support for new hardware/codecs is implemented, but once it's up it just makes sure the archived content is always in a readable format on readable media.

      --
      How many people can read hex if only you and dead people can read hex?
    3. Re:Now if only Lucas had done this by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      Sure strage is cheap - but who can be sure the hardware will be usable in say 50 years?
      No one. There's little doubt about it, that same hardware will probably be obsolete within 50 years. That doesn't mean, however, that the data is unreadable. The data needs only to be read once to make a perfect copy to more up-to-date hardware. Even if we were to unexpectedly encounter an old, perfectly preserved piece of digital hardware in 50-100 years, I have little doubt that we would still have the knowledge of how the hardware worked, and that it would still be possible to figure out a makeshift reader for it. Again, once it's read and copied, there is no more problem. Analogue cannot compete with that.
      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    4. Re:Now if only Lucas had done this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cost may play a role as well - as important as it is for film history to save as much as possible, how may film makers in the early stages of a career have the money to produce high quality, redundant backups? And then maintain their viability over the years? So true. When Robert Rodriguez made his debut, "El Mariachi", he didn't have enough money to use good quality recording medium. The version of this masterpiece that I saw on TV was the better quality version that Columbia made by cleaning up the original.

      Check out the trivia on IMDB! http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104815/trivia
    5. Re:Now if only Lucas had done this by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      On the subject of disks, RAID etc I remember and article about Google's data storage, and how more could be added to the pool and have redundancy etc automatically dealt with.

      Why can't the archive make use of a similar, media independent system? As long as there is some capability in the system to talk to a) the old media and b) the new media (Which can easily be achieved as long as the system is used, because hardware and software are easy enough to build 'bridges' into) then updating the archive is no more complex than adding whatever the latest readily available mass storage is, and letting old and defunct hardware vanish off the far end.


      That certainly would be a good way to do it - the electronic equivalent of stories passed generation to generation; which brings me to:

      On the codec front, again the automation should help make this easier. Presuming the studios are too stupid to archive in a straight file format (Won't surprise me) the system could still be programmed to do the conversion. As long as it can read the old filetype and write the new one, it can be set to automatically update archives to the latest format.

      Here's the rub - unless each codec is lossless each conversion losses some of the original; much as retelling stories introduces subtle difference that, over time, result in a very different version than the original.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
  13. Losing movies by 0123456 · · Score: 3, Informative

    "Turns out it's harder for digital media than for contemporary analog"

    The negatives of the original 'Wicker Man' movie were either burnt or buried under the M3 motorway. From what I remember, some of the original 'Babylon 5' negatives were eaten by rats. They're gone, nothing will ever bring them back, because they're analogue media which can't be copied without quality loss.

    The problem is the whole idea of a 'master copy' of the movie on media that goes obsolete. The benefit of digital data is that it can be copied any number of times without quality loss, so build a big RAID system and stick the movies on there. Over time it will be upgraded but the digital data will remain... the only time you'll put the data on tape will be for backups, though even then you'd probably be better copying it to other RAID servers at remote sites.

    1. Re:Losing movies by Dogtanian · · Score: 2, Funny

      From what I remember, some of the original 'Babylon 5' negatives were eaten by rats. When asked why they hadn't eaten the original Star Trek negatives, the rats replied "We're not that desparate."
      --
      "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
    2. Re:Losing movies by fermion · · Score: 1
      What you are talking about here is money. Physical copies are thrown out because there simply is no money to store and maintain them. Library are cleared out all the time. One have a collection of movies, the movies over there have not generated significant revenue in 20 years, one needs to store old movies, what is one to do? Build a new facility, or throw out obsolete products.

      With 100% digital stock, the money might be less, but the issues just as real. Perhaps no footage must be left on the cutting room floor to be swept up, but the data must be stored somewhere. If it is stored on the hardisk, the hardisks must be stored an appropriate chamber, power down, and occasionally checked for integrity. And is one copy going to be enough? Hardisks are unreliable compared to film, so I would say two, at least. I would say the temptation to reuse or throw out hard drives is going to quite strong.

      As far as upgrading, I don't think anyone is going to do that without strong retail demand. I am sure any number of classic movies will be lost due the fact that there is no longer machines to read the data. Unfortunately, I suspect, the Scary Movie franchise will not be one of them.

      --
      "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    3. Re:Losing movies by adpowers · · Score: 1

      But there is a difference between long term storage of analog media and digital media: the costs of storing digital media are dropping exponentially. What used to take a rack to store five years ago is now stored on one or two servers and will eventually be down to one hard drive.

      Of course, you'd want to have multiple computers in separate locations for redundancy (which puts a lower limit on cost), but as time goes on, you'll need less copies at each datacenter. Combine electromagnetic storage with a couple of Blu-Ray discs of the same data (but use FEC encoding on the discs) and you've got a pretty good solution.

    4. Re:Losing movies by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 1

      they're analogue media which can't be copied without quality loss

      Yes, but a high-enough sampling rate and resolution make you not care.

  14. Archivists know this already. by oneiros27 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This isn't news -- at least not to those of us who deal with data.

    The typical procedure is to do a media refresh (ie, copy it) every few years, and to check for damage. There are concepts like LOCKSS (Lots of Copies Keeps Stuff Safe), so those joking about BitTorrent aren't that far off, but it's a little more structured than that.

    Dan Cohen gave a talk recently on "Can Today's Scientific Data Be Preserved? The Specter of a 'Digital Dark Age'", which touched on not only the issue of media failure, but also the loss of the knowledge to extract the encoded information. (much like the 'lost languages' that we don't understand now, how do we make sure that future generations have the necessary hardware and software to get the data back out?)

    What's disapointing is just how fast the media is failing. Vendors give a 'mean time to failure' estimate that's based on perfect storage, and that they have no real ways of testing (because, well, if you say it's 40 years, are we going to have to wait 40 years before using it?). Even if you're duplicating your tapes, what happens when all of the copies were put on the same potentially bad batch of tapes?

    Quite likely, we're going to lose data. And some of it's going to be because we no longer have copies of the data. The rest is going to be lost because there's so much crap being saved that doesn't need to be that we can't find stuff that still has value in the future.

    --
    Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
  15. Easy by Rumagent · · Score: 1

    Publish them on piratebay and let the world be the backup

  16. Save Gigli Now! by cntlzed · · Score: 1

    ... and also need to ensure no parts of Jar-Jar are lost/modified due to data corruption. Hot Pink Jar-Jar, anyone?

  17. Solution by ms1234 · · Score: 1

    Put it on the p2p networks and it will be available forever :)

  18. Bittorent et.al. by fluch · · Score: 0, Redundant

    The movie industry should just download the "lost" movies from the net as everyone does ;-)

  19. Doctor Who by Eudial · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I think the countless lost Doctor Who-episodes is a good example of how analog video storage isn't perfect either.

    --
    GAAH! MY PRINTER IS ON FIRE!!! PUT IT OUT! PUT IT OUT!
    1. Re:Doctor Who by Dogtanian · · Score: 1

      I think the countless lost Doctor Who-episodes is a good example of how analog video storage isn't perfect either. That's because in most cases they *deliberately* got rid of them to free up space. It's nothing to do with deterioration of the original videotapes/film.
      --
      "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
    2. Re:Doctor Who by Eudial · · Score: 1

      That's because in most cases they *deliberately* got rid of them to free up space. It's nothing to do with deterioration of the original videotapes/film.


      Though, one have to consider the human factor of film-storage, not just the technical part.
      --
      GAAH! MY PRINTER IS ON FIRE!!! PUT IT OUT! PUT IT OUT!
  20. Google Storage by pinkocommie · · Score: 1

    Have Google build them a redundant cluster like Google's own, couple of thousand machines, couple of petabytes.... shouldn't be too hard :)

  21. par2 by mwilliamson · · Score: 1

    Mix in some redundancy and use RAID-like computations to recover bad segments of tape. The pirate world has had this solved for quite some time.

  22. some of them weren't even stored by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Remember the strike? Several episodes were broadcast live an never officially recorded.

    1. Re:some of them weren't even stored by Dogtanian · · Score: 1

      Several episodes were broadcast live an never officially recorded. I don't believe that Doctor Who was ever broadcast live, although the early episodes were often *recorded* in an almost live manner (i.e. a single run-through, or something very close to it). However, some of the BBC's Quatermass serials were broadcast live, and I believe that many of *them* were never recorded. Perhaps that's what you had in mind?
      --
      "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
  23. Don't worry, Hollywood by wbren · · Score: 2, Funny

    I have an archive of most of your _good_ material stored on my hard drives.

    --
    -William Brendel
    1. Re:Don't worry, Hollywood by Cheeze · · Score: 1

      wow, that's about 40GB max assuming you have them encoded in xvid.

      The problem is they said they were storing them on data tapes. Why are they using tape? Can't they write it out on a digital media like DVD or laser disc?

      --
      Why read the article when I can just make up a snap judgement?
    2. Re:Don't worry, Hollywood by flappinbooger · · Score: 1

      DVD is fine for end user, but it's actually pretty lossy. The studios need to store their stuff losslessly so they can do "something" with them later. When I'm doing a video I take it from DV tape (which is compressed, about 4:1 IIRC, but losslessly) edit it on the computer, render it back to DV, and put it back to tape. (for reference, DV is about 15 gigs per hour, and that's 720x480 w/ 2 channel audio) I then put the tape on my hermetically sealed and climate controlled "shelf" storage unit. Then I render again to whatever format suits the end user for the project.

      Codecs like DVD (mpeg2), divx, wmv, etc, pretty much preclude ever doing anything with the footage again once it's in that state. For casual stuff I've reused clips I only had in mpeg2 in a new project, but a studio would never do that for master footage...

      Is holographic still too new? If the medium is right don't you all think that holographic storage should last a LOOOOONG time and store LOOOOOTS of stuff in a small space?

      --
      Flappinbooger isn't my real name
  24. I may be an uncultured redneck, but... by AngryNick · · Score: 2, Insightful
    It seems to me that many filmmakers overestimate the artistic value of their work.

    Will we lose films like we lost the originals of the 20s?"

    A better question might be, "Will anyone really care that they can't watch a high-quality cut of 40-year Old Virgin in the year 2087?" If we are really worried about losing the content of a movie, then archive it to film and accept the faults (loss of image quality, cost of storage, risk of damage, etc.).

    1. Re:I may be an uncultured redneck, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's often not the media you think will be important that turns out to be valuable in the future.
      Case in point, I had a photo negative turn out to be valuable, not because of the band I was taking a picture of, but there was someone else in the frame who went on to be very famous.

      This does not happen much nowadays, as people tend to delete unused photos and the paper does not keep archives of negatives. No one used to bother removing one photo from a reel of 24 negatives, but with digital you can.

    2. Re:I may be an uncultured redneck, but... by Anonymous+McCartneyf · · Score: 1

      The 40-Year Old Virgin got positive reviews from critix, and Steve Carrell is a respected actor from his work in The Office (American vs.). So, if there are still film fanatics in 2087, there will be people who want to see that film in as good a condition as possible.

      --
      There is a fine line between recklessness and courage... -- Paul McCartney
  25. What's good for the goose... by Five+Bucks! · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Their solution takes the data from a digital intermediate and turns it into three-color separation negatives.
    In other words, they take the digital movie and turn it into good old-fashioned film.


    So they're going to be using equipment that utilises the analogue hole?
    Sounds... hypocritical. The movie industry balks at us for archiving movies we already own, but they're doing it at a massive scale just to save their own ass.
    --
    52 52'23" W 47 32'07" N
    1. Re:What's good for the goose... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So they're going to be using equipment that utilises the analogue hole?

      I suggested that to my girlfriend and I got slapped!

    2. Re:What's good for the goose... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You should have suggested using something digital.

  26. Those of us with digital cameras by careysb · · Score: 1

    I was an early adopter of digital cameras and have almost 10 years worth of images. At first I backed them up to multiple gold CD's. Later when external hard drives went up in capacity and down in price I invested in several of those. However, with all this, I have no program that will let me know when I've lost a bit in one of those many files. I'm afraid I won't find out that some data has been damaged until I try to retrieve a specific image, and this, of course, is too late. I've been keeping my eye out for a program that will compute a check-sum (CRC, MD5, etc.) for my files so that when I rerun the program it will let me know if any data has changed so that I can recover files from an alternate backup. Seems to me that this kind of program should be fundamental to any digital archive. Any ideas? --Carey

    1. Re:Those of us with digital cameras by Paradigm_Complex · · Score: 1

      You can have this done automatically with hardware, look into http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAID/. Just be careful, cheap RAID controllers will end up causing more data loss than protection.

      --
      "A witty saying proves nothing." - Voltaire
    2. Re:Those of us with digital cameras by Dogtanian · · Score: 1

      I'm sufficiently paranoid that I use MD5 for some stuff as you suggest; if you're doing each disc/whatever at once and have no intention of adding to it at a future date, doing a single MD5 for all the files on the disc is fine. However, if you intend adding to the archive later, it's a bit of a nuisance keeping a single/multiple MD5 file(s) up-to-date.

      --
      "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
    3. Re:Those of us with digital cameras by Compholio · · Score: 1

      I've been keeping my eye out for a program that will compute a check-sum (CRC, MD5, etc.) for my files so that when I rerun the program it will let me know if any data has changed so that I can recover files from an alternate backup.
      Since you're not familiar with the answer to this question, I'm going to assume you're running Windows (other operating systems are commonly distributed with the instructions and application for checking/creating an MD5 key). There's a nifty little program called "md5sum" which you can get from http://www.linuxquestions.org/linux/answers/LQ_ISO /Checking_the_md5sum_in_Windows.

      md5sum is used to create or check the MD5 key of a file. I would recommend writing a batch script that uses this program to create a ".md5" of all the files on the drive you care about, if one does not exist, but if the ".md5" file does exist then you would have the script call the program to check the MD5 and report any errors.
    4. Re:Those of us with digital cameras by whitis · · Score: 1

      You are asking the wrong question. What you should be asking is for tools that will tell you the disc is suffering from bitrot before it becomes unreadable.

      These tools exist. I have run across them. Unfortunately, they only work on certain model drives that have the ability to report internal measurements.
      Qpxtool supports about 45 drives from 8 manufacturers. Qpxtool measures recoverable and unrecoverable errors (PI/PIF), Jitter/Beta, FE/TE (Focus Error/Tracking Error).
      http://qpxtool.sourceforge.net/

      pxlinux was similar, however they got threatening letters and/or lawsuits from the company that makes plextools (parent company of plextor).
      PXscan/PXview runs under windows (pxlinux is a port of PXscan/PDview), had the same problem.
      Qpxtool doesn't seem to have the same problem.

      Nero appears to have some sort of disk quality test.
      Windows software for testing before your record (FE/TE): http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?t=192488

      Here is another program that might work on any drive but may not report there is a problem as early. It times how long the drive takes to read each sector.
      If the drive has to reread a sector, that takes longer. Some drives reportedly either read full speed or fail (probably means they don't have any retries).
      http://freshmeat.net/projects/cdck/

      dvdisaster records additional recovery information. The author was apparently able to recover data from a disk after carrying it around in a backpack
      with no sleave. It records one ECC block per 223 sectors and can tolerate up to 32 read errors per block. The error correction files can be stored
      on separate media (it looks like one disk could store ECC information for a couple hundred disks).
      http://dvdisaster.sourceforge.net/en/

      I have also noticed (on some damaged discs from a friend) that the dd program stops when there is a read error but the sdd program has the option to retry.

      Record your data to multiple disks (preferably different brands) using the exact same ISO image (burn the same image multiple times or copy your disk) and store them in different locations. This gives you a form of software raid. If someone hasn't already written it, it would not be hard at all to write a program that will
      read a disk to an ISO image on the hard drive, retrying bad sectors and recording a list of sectors it was unable to read. Then try to read those missing sectors from a different disc. A more sophisticated version might ask the drive to return the data even in the event of a CRC error and do majority rules for each byte
      of the sector across three or more source disks. For added protection, use different brand drives to record the disks.

      Deterioration reportedly tends to start on the outside of the disk, so if you only record half a disks worth of data it may last longer. Or use dvdisaster.

      Levels of deterioration:
      - Detectable only by reading internal parameters from the drive
      - Drive can read the sector after multiple tries (detectable from timing)
      - Drive gives up but you may be able to issue multiple read commands and get the data
      - Permanent failure. May still be able to get data if you have recorded redundant info using a tool like dvdisaster
      - so many read errors, or damaged lead in, such that full recovery is impossible

      As far as the original problem of protecting films, I would consider the following:
      - Use archival quality single layer DVD+/-R media.
      One example: http://www.verbatim.com/optical/archival/ (about $1.50 each)
      - Use a drive

    5. Re:Those of us with digital cameras by whitis · · Score: 1

      Looks like I was answering the wrong question, too, since on rereading it appears you are concerned with hard drive storage, now.
      md5sum and diff (to compare the results) can do what you asked. However, what they are checking for doesn't really address the underlying problem.
      Checksums/hashes on the file will catch files corrupted from software errors but disk drives don't normally return corrupted data; instead, they
      return read errors. So, you can read the files with any program with reasonable error reporting and find out if you have a hard read error.
      Usually, what happens when the sector starts to go bad is that the hard drive reads it repeatedly until it gets a good read then it relocates
      the sector to another place on the drive fixing the problem, though some drives may wait until you rewrite the data to relocate (remapping is a configurable
      setting).
      Reading the entire file with any program will trigger this and thus it is to your
      advantage to read the file periodically so it gets remapped while it is still recoverable. Other than a delay, however, you may have no indication that
      your file was rescued. smartmontools, smartsuite, or a similar program, will report drive error statistics. That is your best chance of getting a warning, if there is a warning to be had (failures are often catastrophic with no warning). You need to turn smart on when you boot. On linux, you can use the
      badblocks utility (read-only mode) to scan for bad blocks. Badblocks may not get an indication of soft errors but it will read the entire disk and
      you can check the smart values for soft error counts.

      Bear in mind that the lifetime of a hard drive is typically around 5 years. With manufacturers switching to lead free solder to meet european regulations, maybe significantly less. If you leave the drive powered down, maybe it lasts longer, maybe it doesn't. Might even shorten life if you leave it powered down all of the time (think bearings, lubrication, etc). There are a lot of aging effects (diffusion, thermal cycling, etc) even when a drive isn't powered up.

      Think diversity. Back it up on CD/DVD and hard drive and assume both deteriorate with age.

    6. Re:Those of us with digital cameras by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unison (http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~bcpierce/unison/} has a mode that compares checksums between multiple copies.

  27. Don't use tape! by Joce640k · · Score: 1

    A good start would be to not use tape.

    I don't know what actual the percentage of tape failures is (and they're not telling), but in my own experience it's pretty high.

    Hard disks and PCs are cheap enough that every movie could have its own little RAID array somewhere.

    --
    No sig today...
    1. Re:Don't use tape! by The_Wilschon · · Score: 1

      Capacity of hard disks is nothing like capacity of magnetic tape. At Fermilab, we use tape because it'd be a real PITA to put dozens of petabytes on hard disks. CERN will soon have an even bigger problem in this regard.

      --
      SIGSEGV caught, terminating

      wait... not that kind of sig.
    2. Re:Don't use tape! by tooyoung · · Score: 1

      A good start would be to not use tape. I don't know what actual the percentage of tape failures is (and they're not telling), but in my own experience it's pretty high. Hard disks and PCs are cheap enough that every movie could have its own little RAID array somewhere.
      Tape is much cheaper than disc. A 3592 tape will hold 700GB worth of data, for a fraction of the cost of disc. Also, tape is more reliable than disc, if being used for long term storage, where the tape is not frequently used. From http://www.research.ibm.com/journal/rd/474/hellman .html

      In addition, tape has two major advantages over HDD. The first is the ability to remove a cartridge to a completely separate location for safekeeping, and the second is the stability of the storage media over time. Tape is considerably more stable over long periods (years) of inactive time, whereas HDD mechanisms must be activated periodically (every few months) to maintain viability.
    3. Re:Don't use tape! by you-nix-boy · · Score: 1

      Capacity of hard disks is nothing like capacity of magnetic tape. At Fermilab, we use tape because it'd be a real PITA to put dozens of petabytes on hard disks. CERN will soon have an even bigger problem in this regard.

      This is the reason why tape will be some component of a digital archive until a new technology emerges that offers this economy of scale. I work in the media asset management field, and we're talking about archive quality, uncompressed bitrates which can yield up to 6TB/hr of data for 4k DCI (that's video alone). Sun Microsystems and a post-production company, Elektrofilm announced a partnership and pending product at NAB (Daily Variety) and seem to be pouring a lot of money and development into the technical and operational issues associated with this type of archive.

      Systems like this will have to manage hundreds of thousands of hours of content at the same quality that existing film and video tape technologies are capable of, while maintaining the same diversity or workflows, and timeframes. Nothing of this scale has existed outside of the government space, and it's a much more complex issue than simple raw storage capacity. A single studio's library can represent hundreds of petabytes of data depending on the bitrate, and nothing outside of a tiered storage system with an HSM is capable of doing this economically, while still managing data integrity, the extreme throughput needed to move that volume of data in real-time, and the tools to manage the metadata.

      --
      --- Pork is not a verb.
  28. question: how big is a movie? by Falladir · · Score: 1

    The article doesn't give a figure (or maybe I missed it). How much data does the digital original of a feature film comprise? My wild guess is a terrabyte or two, but I guess I can imagine it's much more. It would kind of have to be a lot for this to be a serious issue, or else redundancy would be cheap enough to make this a non-issue.

    If long-term data-loss is such a problem, there's an eminently fillable niche for utterly immortal data storage. There are some definite tyranny-of-numbers problems here, but the movie industry has money.

    1. Re:question: how big is a movie? by LocoMan · · Score: 1

      I remember reading somewhere that Toy Story generated about one terabyte of data when rendered, and it was rendered at half the full film resolution (something like 2k instead of 4k), so I would guess about 2 to 4 terabytes of uncompressed frames for a regular 90 minutes movie.

      I shudder to think how much it would be needed to store all the LoTR extended trilogy... :)

    2. Re:question: how big is a movie? by MrHuevos · · Score: 1

      The size of a 2K Full-Aperture frame is 12450k. So a 100 minute movie is approximately 1.8 terabytes. 2K (2048x1556) 10-bit Cineon/DPX frames are still pretty much the standard for Digital Intermediate right now, although the technology for 4K is beginning to creep in for those who can afford it. Spiderman 3 did a 4K DI, even though the visual effects were all done at 2K and uprezzed. For a 4K master, multiply by 4 = 7.2 TB.

  29. Many shows were lost because the tapes were reused by Joce640k · · Score: 1

    The BBC lost many, many TV shows because video tape was really expensive in those days and the tapes were reused after a show was broadcast.

    --
    No sig today...
  30. hold it by thegnu · · Score: 1

    raising arizona was good. don't get too overzealous, now.

    --
    Please stop stalking me, bro.
  31. Question.... by Viceroy+Potatohead · · Score: 1

    Is there any way we can accelerate this process for Gigli?

  32. Bitch-torrent? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No doubt it would, however it gives no assurences either. Plus you can add intentional corruption.

  33. Ewoks miss the cut? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have an archive of most of your _good_ material stored on my hard drives.

    "Most", eh? That'll be just the first two Star Wars films then?
  34. SAVE OUR MOVIES! by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

    As it stands, there is little to no incentive for movie studios to archive their movies beyond the period of their copyrights. Upon entering public domain, their value decreases, and they fail to cover the costs of maintaining them. We then have to rely on other shady operations, like *shudder* P2P, or *bigger shudder* Archive.org (the maintainers of who, I happen to know for a FACT, regularly funded Al-Quaeda and frequently molest our children). They are unreliable and fail to compare with the safe and extremely competent hands of the MPAA.

    This is why I advocate unlimited copyright periods for all works retroactively!

    Come on people, we've got to save our culture! Do the the right thing and keep our movies profitable! Don't be un-American! Support our movie industry! Even you foreigners can be loyal to America! You just have to keep importing our culture! Resistance is futile! We will rule the world! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!

    (Mods, if you can not tell that that was a joke by now, you probably don't deserve those mod points.)

    --
    You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    1. Re:SAVE OUR MOVIES! by unitron · · Score: 1

      (Mods, if you can not tell that that was a joke...

      Except that you may have accidentally and unintentionally made a very good point about how to get the media giants to protect our cultural heritage.

      --

      I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.

    2. Re:SAVE OUR MOVIES! by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 1

      Except that you may have accidentally and unintentionally made a very good point about how to get the media giants to protect our cultural heritage.
      I'd rather it be legally mandated for them to provide for the preservation of their works throughout and well after their copyright term, even if it means they have to release their copyright and works well before their expiration, as well as penalties proportional the the value of the work to future generations, being a multiple (not a divisor) of its value when it was extant.

      I wouldn't put it past Disney that, if they even once don't get an extension for Mickey Mouse, they'd rather destroy all originals than allow the public domain to have them.

      Further, anyone who is penalized for infringing a work that expires before its copyright (an "ephemeral work") would be freed and all penalties reversed in treble. Even freezing all company assets for the equivalent of any served term of incarceration or the transfer of the company to the incarcerated's heirs, such as is appropriate for copyright beyond even its creator's lifetime.

      Thus should be the counter to the draconian laws they currently wield for impeding the Progress of Science and useful Arts by failing to also secure for the limited Times afforded their Writings their eventual entry into the public domain.
      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
  35. zip -0 file.jpg by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    zip -0 file.jpg

    CRC, fast encapsulation, and knowing you are using a technology stolen by a guy that drunk himself DeAd, but zip will always be around, long after all its variations are as DeAd as Phil Katz (PK).

  36. Just wait until slashdot loses it's memes. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    "This will only get worse because they insist on the stupid DRM schemes."

    *sigh* Apparently slashmemes are bittorrented too. DRM ONLY affects copies, COPIES remember?* The originals would still have the problems they're having DRM or no DRM, and no I don't believe that having mass-copies of non-DRM content is as much of an assurance as you think. Just ask collectors what time does even to mass-produced items.

    *And might I add those copies aren't exact originals. From the cutting-room floor, to the compression.

    1. Re:Just wait until slashdot loses it's memes. by toddestan · · Score: 1

      What about all that material from decades past, where we only have copies left? I could easily envision in that 100 years into the future, some movies may only exist as some disks found in someone's attic that no one knows how to decipher the DRM on them.

  37. I'm not surprised by petrus4 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    I've never regarded CDs to be as durable as either analog tape or vinyl. From the point of view of permanence, I've always regarded the format as rubbish. If you look after both, on average a CD will last only half as long as a vinyl record.

    Society has shown indications of advanced decline in a lot of ways over the last 20-30 years, but one of the main ways in which it has is that today, very little is designed or built with permanence in mind, or with genuine care invested in its' construction. In the past, things were made to last, and they were made by people who cared about their construction.

    The main problem is quite simply overpopulation. I've often wished I could wake up one morning and discover that around 70%-75% of the global population had simply disappeared during the night. The sociological improvement that would be experienced by the 25% that were left would be astronomical. Every human problem that you can think of would be either completely solved or radically reduced in severity by that one incident. People would start actually giving a damn about things again. The individual would be considered worth something, rather than merely a drop in a collectivist bucket as is the case now. We would no longer have to contend with corporations staffed by demoniacs. The burden on the environment would be incalculably eased, and at least until the population rose again, sociopathic amorality and pathological lying would cease to be the basis of society.

    1. Re:I'm not surprised by markimusk · · Score: 1


      Jeez, don't hold it in, tell us how you REALLY feel!

    2. Re:I'm not surprised by Sinkael · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      You are so off base here that it isn't even funny, I really should point out your ignorance, but I get the feeling that you are so wrapped up in your beliefs that no matter what I tell you will be wasted.

      Not to mention you spout off about amorality and apparently have no idea what it even is, I mean lets take 9/11 as a perfect example, to the US it was a horrible amoral act and yet to those committing the act it was a good, morale and just thing to do. Saying that having 70-75% of the global population disappear would make the remaining population all share the same idea of morals is ludicrous. Unless of course you are talking about having the remaining 25% all come from the same belief system, in which case I ask you who's belief deserve to survive?

    3. Re:I'm not surprised by miskatonic+alumnus · · Score: 1

      I've never regarded CDs to be as durable as either analog tape ...

      You have GOT to be kidding. I have had too many tapes fail because of drop-outs, runners, and breakage. Cassette tapes are horrible.

      The main problem is quite simply overpopulation. I've often wished I could wake up one morning and discover that around 70%-75% of the global population had simply disappeared during the night. The sociological improvement that would be experienced by the 25% that were left would be astronomical.

      Globally, that would leave us at about a 1900 AD population level. In 100 years, we'd be right back where we are today.

    4. Re:I'm not surprised by at_18 · · Score: 2, Funny

      I've often wished I could wake up one morning and discover that around 70%-75% of the global population had simply disappeared during the night.

      Chances are that you wouldn't wake up.

    5. Re:I'm not surprised by vought · · Score: 2, Informative

      You have GOT to be kidding. I have had too many tapes fail because of drop-outs, runners, and breakage. Cassette tapes are horrible.

      I have the feeling he's talking about half-inch or one inch analog tape masters, which are quite good, and last a long time with little (perceptible) loss if stored properly. If he'd meant cassettes, he'd have said "cassette tapes".



      Compact cassette tapes have always been regarded as one of the first true bastard inventions of the copyright-obsessed recording industry. Mechanically balky enclosures, thin tape that stretches easily...you name it - it took ten years to truly catch on and was subjected to a slow death by CDs.

    6. Re:I'm not surprised by petrus4 · · Score: 1

      Saying that having 70-75% of the global population disappear would make the remaining population all share the same idea of morals is ludicrous.

      You know, it's odd...but I don't recall having said that. What I said was that I believed that a reduction in the population to that degree would lessen the intensity of problems caused by overpopulation to a corresponding degree. I didn't say anything about whether or not the people left would all think the same way.

      I *have* observed in the past however that people do tend to behave in a manner that is more directly conducive to their wellbeing when there are less of them around. Aside from anything else, it's a simple issue of scale. Less people, less crime, less pollution, less of all the bad stuff that by default goes with having groups of people around.

    7. Re:I'm not surprised by ichigo+2.0 · · Score: 1

      Then what motivation would we have to expand to space?

    8. Re:I'm not surprised by value_added · · Score: 1

      I've often wished I could wake up one morning and discover that around 70%-75% of the global population had simply disappeared during the night. The sociological improvement that would be experienced by the 25% that were left would be astronomical. Every human problem that you can think of would be either completely solved or radically reduced in severity by that one incident.

      Well, I agree with your statements that CDs are rubbish as an archival medium, but this is a bit extreme, doncha think? At first glance, it reminds me of how everyone complains about all the bad drivers out there, but 80% of people proudly consider themselves good drivers.

      What I do think is invariably true is that if you wait long enough, chances are you will wake up and the problems you had will have taken care of themselves. No need for disposing of anyone. If one of those problems was a concern about the longevity of CDs, for example, wait long enough and you won't remember or care what was on them. Problem? What problem?

    9. Re:I'm not surprised by Sinkael · · Score: 1

      You need to go back and study history, seriously.

    10. Re:I'm not surprised by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I have the feeling he's talking about half-inch or one inch analog tape masters, which are quite good, and last a long time with little (perceptible) loss if stored properly"

      Not quite. many of the original 1/2 inch, one inch, and two inch master tapes from the past, even as recent as the 1980s, have to be "baked", literally, in an oven before they can be played again to make CD masters from.

      "Compact cassette tapes have always been regarded as one of the first true bastard inventions of the copyright-obsessed recording industry"

      You may regard them as such, but in fact, cassette tapes were originally designed by Norelco to be used as a highly portable tape format for office dictation machines. They were never intended for music in the first place.

    11. Re:I'm not surprised by Detritus · · Score: 1

      In the past, things were made to last, and they were made by people who cared about their construction.

      Eight tracks. The official tape format of the IMF.

      People have always been greedy. I laugh when so-called audiophiles swoon about the virtues of vinyl. Record pressing plants were notorious for doing anything to save a nickel, like using stampers well past the point that they had worn out, and adding crushed rock, or something that sounded like it, to the vinyl when oil prices shot up. Their quality control was horrible. A large percentage of the product was defective, and they didn't care.

      --
      Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
    12. Re:I'm not surprised by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow. Just wow. I'm going to file that one in my folder with the OMGWTFOTL quotes, ascii porn, 4chan copypasta, and nigerian spam.

    13. Re:I'm not surprised by Eddi3 · · Score: 1

      Not if the *right* people disappeared ;-)

    14. Re:I'm not surprised by skeeterbug · · Score: 1

      The main problem is quite simply overpopulation. I've often wished I could wake up one morning and discover that around 70%-75% of the global population had simply disappeared during the night. The sociological improvement that would be experienced by the 25% that were left would be astronomical. Every human problem that you can think of would be either completely solved or radically reduced in severity by that one incident. People would start actually giving a damn about things again. The individual would be considered worth something, rather than merely a drop in a collectivist bucket as is the case now. We would no longer have to contend with corporations staffed by demoniacs. The burden on the environment would be incalculably eased, and at least until the population rose again, sociopathic amorality and pathological lying would cease to be the basis of society.

      while some things would be better for those folks who weren't part of the 75% wiped out, i think you've reached a false conclusion. first, there was a time when the population was 1/4 what it is now and the killing and strife that has continued through today went on back then, too. second, you seem to imply that selfishness (the root of all evil - failing to care for others equal to oneself, not more, not less) is correlated to relative population size. i put forth the history of the world as evidence your hypothesis is wrong. do you have anything, beyond a vivid imagination based upon hope, that suggests it is right?
    15. Re:I'm not surprised by Enahs · · Score: 1

      I so wish I had some points to hand you, but I don't. :-} Let's not forget the compromises made in the audio signal just to make vinyl sound passably good, eh? Ah, yes; there was never anything quite like bringing a record home only to have the damn thing skip like mad, then take it back when you discover it's a defective record. And to have that seem normal and even acceptable.

      Audiophiles rightly hated cassette tapes--but were records really that much better? I don't think so.

      I doubt that there'll be an easy solution to the movie master backup problem, at least not anytime soon. In that case, I'm betting we'll never see any Star Wars Prequel Special Editions. Thank God.

      --
      Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
  38. At least Sony has an option... by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

    those joking about BitTorrent aren't that far off, but it's a little more structured than that
    It's so simple! Sony, for their movies, could include an invisible P2P client into their next audio CD rootkit, designed for storing and archiving DRMed copies of movies! Why, with genius like that, I could easily rise through the ranks of Sony, climbing on the back of thousands of oppressed PC users! I could look back and laugh at all of you, leeching bandwidth from all over the world.

    You could laugh back at me and point out that you are using Linux.
    --
    You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    1. Re:At least Sony has an option... by flappinbooger · · Score: 2, Interesting

      At the risk of being redundant, the idea of distributed storage is good. Tie in the concepts of ubiquitous computing, prolific high speed internet, vast amounts of unused HD space and clock cycles - Why not?

      Doesn't google use massively distributed and redundant storage and processing now?

      And when I say why not, I'm not talking about putting it in a rootkit, I'm talking about something along the lines of seti@home + bit torrent + whatever = a global data ether of our collective digital valuables forever being stored by everyone.

      --
      Flappinbooger isn't my real name
  39. This is the main use for holographic storage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Archive is what holographic storage is targeted at. The movie and broadcast industry is pretty geared for it - Right now they have to keep copying tapes and hard drives over and over because they either suffer bit rot, or hard drives crash. The holographic media from Inphase Technologies (Drives were running on display this week at the National Association of Broadcasters (NAB) show in vegas) has a 50 year archival life. A lot of people look at the price of the drive (18k) and say, "I'll never backup my pron collection to that" and miss the point that nobody gives a rats ass about your pron collection, but for real archive purposes, people will fork out the money to preserve large, expensive content assets.

    1. Re:This is the main use for holographic storage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yet another web designer who would fail the test after lesson 1.
      Disable javascript to see why.

      How confident am I meant to be about trusting these assholes with retrieval of my data in 25 years when I'm having difficulty retrieving the data on their website now?

  40. Three words by morcego · · Score: 1

    (What are the odds) They can manage to "lose" the digital masters for every film Nicholas Cage has been in?

    Not good enough.

    --
    morcego
  41. not worth saving by Lehk228 · · Score: 1

    fortunately nothing made since hollywood started using digital recording is worth archiving.

    delete it all and the problem is solved.

    --
    Snowden and Manning are heroes.
  42. DRM is an issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Feel free to disagree but don't tell us, tell the BBC who've relied on the assistance of private collectors to reconstruct their archives.

  43. Digital either means you are alive or dead by PyrotekNX · · Score: 2, Informative

    The current trend in the archival industry is to convert everything to digital. Unfortunately scanning is often a destructive process. In my experience, I have scanned documents that were written over 200 years ago and were still legible. In order to scan these documents, we had to cut all the pages from the binding which effectively destroys the document. The data was then burned onto dvd-r and sent back to the company. If there is any problem with a single disk, there would be a permanent loss of over 100,000 documents.

    DVD is fine for the consumer market, if the disc is damaged you can just buy another one. This is not the case with the film industry, once these original masters are gone, they are gone forever. Microfilm, however can last for generations. Even if there is some degradation in the film stock, you can recover almost all the original data. Film can be split into their primary colors onto different reels of microfilm and later be re-joined.

    One of my duties in the scanning industry was to operate the microfilm scanner. In this case, these were documents, but any type of information could be theoretically stored. Current models are capable of scanning at least 600 dpi. One of the hardest things would be to rejoin the frames later on and make sure they are all in sync. The way a microfilm scanner works is that on traditional microfilm, there are small squares that mark each frame. The scanner scans continuously and the software searches for these squares known as blips and it will know where to capture the image. With the addition of medium blips for keyframes and large blips for chapters, you can be fairly certain that you will be able to retrieve all the information later. If there is a missing frame, you will only be missing 1 channel of color for that particular frame. This data can be digitally re-created later.

    Unlike digital media, microfilm has been around for over 100 years. The images are stored optically rather than digitally so there is a minimal amount of equipment needed for retrieval. Reproduction of microfilm is relatively inexpensive and multiple copies can be produced from the master and can be stored in multiple off-site storage areas. If the master is digital, you can produce multiple copies that are all the same quality so there isn't a single original master. It may be possible to store the sound on microfilm as well. Software would have to be developed to encode and decode the data, but it is possible.

  44. Cure for obsolescence by g2devi · · Score: 1

    The cure for obsolescence is to simply come up with a lossless format and stick to it. It doesn't matter what it is, just stick with it. If movie formats are in flux, then go with a standard that has endured the test of time, TIFF (it lasted 20 years and is still going strong) and convert each frame into a TIFF image. If the movie industry is worried about "leaking movies", they can just encrypt each frame with another old standard, and stick to that encryption.

    There really is no need to keep changing formats for your archiving. When you have billions or trillions of movies and music to manage and preserve, you have no time to monkey around with the digital fashion business. Leave the fashion industry to the consumer side.

    1. Re:Cure for obsolescence by nanosquid · · Score: 1

      TIFF is about one of the worst formats for archiving images imaginable; I have yet to see two fully interoperable, independent TIFF implementations.

      As for "encryption", people change encryption standards not because they like to, but because old encryption gets weak. If you're going to pick an encryption standard and stick with it, you might as well not bother with encryption at all.

  45. Go away! Don't bother me! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In a parallel world we shall call Terralt, painters are not romantic, struggling to make ends meet idealists.

    On Terralt, painters just create the paintings but don't sell them; instead, this is best left to intermediaries who act both as patrons and as marketeers. Paintings are shown at timed events, highly anticipated by crowds which pay hefty tickets to get into museums/musea because seeing a masterpiece for the first time is a life-enrichening experience.

    Carefully hired security personnel guard the entrance of these places to avoid non-paying "customers"; of course, VIPs usually get free tickets because of all the publicity they gather for the event. Also, the patrons always grant a ridiculously small amount of free tickets to specially selected first-rank public school, so that their shiny brilliant students can _participate in this_ and bring them patrons/sponsors/distributors a good public image.

    Art loving fans suffer a lot on Terralt, particularly if they're poor. They have to save every dime to attend such events -- or wait for some graciousness from above. This creates some contempt among them for gratis art produced by independent ("indie") artists who aren't blessed with sponsorship. Even great indie artworks go despised because they can't be any good if not recognized as such by any patron.

    Music on Terralt OTOH is totally free. Musicians strive to survive until they attain a master status, when everyone recognizes them wherever they go. They earn free meals, free air travel -- people actually fight for having them at their houses. It's not unusual for such masters to just enter an auditorium and be saluted with standing ovation -- just for being there!

    Both in our world, Terra, and on Terralt there's a huge war going on for some years now. Some want to turn software to be as closed as music on Terra or painting on Terralt. So far, this has been postponed, but not completely avoided.

  46. Does it really matter? by Franklin+Brauner · · Score: 1

    Okay. We lose the original elements to Grindhouse or 300. Is it really such a big cultural loss?
    --
    Franklin Brauner

  47. Uh, joke? by yabos · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You really think they'd have DRM on the masters? Is that a joke or are you that crazy?

    1. Re:Uh, joke? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      they like to exaggerate everything about DRM even though nobody in their sane mind even gives a rats ass about it.

      Slashdot is locked in a closet yelling only to themselves about DRM; because it mostly affects Linux and they are scared.

  48. Surely I'm missing something here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because the way I see it, they can't possibly be losing data, because they're re-releasing it 90 times faster than they're producing it. Die Hard 4. Shrek 3. 196 Days Later. Rocky... uh... N. Trust me hollywood, the originals are trying to tell you something by killing themselves, just LET THEM DIE, if only for your own sake. Here's a good rule of thumb for you, if you can't give a movie a hip-sounding somehow descriptive name without using any numbers don't make the movie.

  49. ZFS to the rescue? by IvyKing · · Score: 2, Informative
    One of the benefits of ZFS is that it does disc scrubbing - i.e. periodically reading the data on the disks to verify consistency, along with marking of failing sectors - and combined with options on how many parity bits for RAIDZ.


    Who knows, maybe Sun can sell a bunch of 'Thumper' boxes to Hollyweird for preservation of the digital masters.

  50. Film archiving, and why it doesn't get done by Richard+Kirk · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Just back from Tinsel Town after talking to some of the dudes in the article. Still jetlagged, so it feels a bit unreal reading about it in Slashdot. Still, I'll do my best to explain why things are the way they are...

    A film is not often made by a single body. If you are shooting to film, then this will get handled by an editorial department. You may have a fast telecine scan for reviewing the material as dailies. Some of these scans may be used as low-resolution proxies for initial grades. Some chosen bits of film may get re-scanned on a slower pin-resolution scanner for inclusion in the final film. Artificial rendered scenes and special effects may be done by specialist houses, then composited in a post-production house. Your film may have 25 4K images per second in the final version, but the data used to generate it is scattered over the place - if you think a good IT department should be backing all this up, then you haven't worked on a film, my friend. As deadlines approach, people may be working stupid hours, and filling up all the available storage. Then the film gets released, and either makes a billion dollars or doesn't. Either way, the tension is off, people take holiday and zonk out. Nobody will be picking over the cutting-room floor or its digital equivalent looking for things that might be useful twenty years from now. By the time people are back from holiday, they don't know or don't care.

    Your end product may be big reels of negative film that you send to a film lab to make prints for cinemas. The lab should keep the golden master clean, and make most of the prints from a second copy. This would be a sensible time to make an archival print of the film. The lab can transfer the whole thing to black and white film. Black and white film does not fade, like conventional colour film does, even in the can. You are getting the print lab to do a pretty full backup of the released film when your people have all gone on holiday. These days you need to back up other stuff. The soundtrack is digital. You will have extra data for the releases in different formats (5:4 TV, 16:9 widescreen, IMAX, etcetera). Still, it is a lot better than nothing. But it is not often done.

    The other think is to know what to archive. Very little of the newsreel film I had to sit though as a child to get to the cartoon has survived. Key stuff like the Queen's Coronation or the outbreak of WW2 was clearly history, and put on a special shelf, but little of the day to day stuff survives. There is one cache that survived when a cinema closed, and the tins of newsreel went into landfill. The cinema was in Alaska; the landfill was permafrost, and the film was kept in near ideal refrigetrated conditions. Apart from this fluke, it has probably all gone.

    There will probably be digital solutions in time. Increasingly, as we have to manage more different sorts of digital data, there is a need to organize and track everything, which ought to mean it is possible to archive all the essential bits that go into any production. Many other people have posted on the problems of knowing what is on (say) a FAT16 Windows 3.1 disk in some 1980's image format. You can keep copying the data to overcome the degradation of the physical medium, but you still have to know what it means. I know of a system for archiving film images, where the people who did the archiving left the company, and one of them took the laptop with them that had the archiving software, so the ability to read the archives went with them. Do you archive the archiving system? Then, do you archive the system that archived that? Yes - basically, that is exactly what people are proposing to do. But it takes a bit of organizing, and we are not there yet.

    Film, on the other hand, has visible images. The 35mm format has remained readable for over 100 years. Even where nitrate stock has flowed over time, we still know what shape it ought to have been. Sometimes we can get something back if we want it badly enough.

    A simple analogue solution may be to

  51. Asset retention is a huge problem by Animats · · Score: 1

    It's a bigger problem than most people realize. Twenty years ago, the original footage shot for a film might be 3x what finally appears on the screen, maybe more for a really big-budget film. Today, not only will there be more raw material, there's far more intermediate work product. A big project might have twenty layers going into a final frame. During the project, all that stuff is stored. But then what? Where does all that stuff get archived? There will be terabytes of stuff for any major film. Studios would like to keep it around. It might be profitably reused some day. But how?

    Not only is there a huge amount of information, it's in a format used by some content management system that probably won't be runnable ten years from now. Worse, each subcontractor will have their own systems. Look at the list of effects companies involved with any major film today. Will they have the intermediates of a project from ten years ago?

    And who's going to archive it? Many production companies are ephemeral, lasting only for the lifetime of the project. There's no ongoing operation responsible for the work products. The major studios may be involved with financing and distribution, and may provide some facilities, but they are no longer the organizations who directly make films. Hollywood is a rental business.

    1. Re:Asset retention is a huge problem by Anonymous+McCartneyf · · Score: 1

      Distribution includes storage.
      If the film is successful, more than one print run may be needed. If it's to be transferred to DVD, the masters may get hauled out for that. If it's a recent film, the same studio will be distributing the theater films and the DVDs. They'll have to have negatives on hand--and so they get to store those negatives.

      --
      There is a fine line between recklessness and courage... -- Paul McCartney
  52. don't worry, be happy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Humanity has been losing data since the very beginning and continues to do so today. So what if we lose some of our oldest digital data? We can't possibly save it all. Even if we could, we couldn't possibly use all that we do save. Is it really a tragedy if a particular piece of data is lost? In a generation or two, it won't matter. Sure, we should leave something behind for future (digital) archaelogists to dig up, but what's the point of trying to save it all?

  53. I can't believe your post was modded 'insightful' by sydbarrett74 · · Score: 1

    ...Furthermore, what makes you think you're personally worthy enough to be in the lucky 25% that would remain after your hypothetical cataclysm? And who the fuck made YOU so high and mighty to determine which people would get to live and die, anyway? Suffering from hubris and delusions of grandeur, are we? Get off your fucking high-horse, buck-o!

    --
    'He who has to break a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom.' -- Gandalf to Saruman
  54. Archival problems go deep by joneil · · Score: 2, Informative

    I'm involved in some preservation of history & documentation, and the issue is both huge, and far ranging, not just movies. Here are a few issues, beyond those already stated:

    - volume of data. Not uncommon for people to go on a vacation, and come back with 1,000 or 2,000 or 5,000 images on 2 or 4 gig SD chips off thier digital camera. Who has the time to catalog them all? When film cost you - oh, say for arguement a dollar a shot, most people were very careful what they took pictures of to begin with, and keep them safe after the fact. We do not see very much of that attitude today, so paradoxiaclly, the more images a person has, the more likely they are to be lost over time. When it becomes too big an issue to sort the chaff from the wheat, many people just walk away from the job.

    - archival materials very rare. Most color films have dyes that fade, most papers today have acid in them and will degrade over time. The list goes on, as it is not just CD's or DVDs that degrade.

    - war on terror. A lot of information that is or was public domain is or has been disappearing from public libraries, web sites, etc. For example - not that I ever want to look at them, but the blueprints for the Detriot-Windsor tunnel used to be in the public domain, but not anymore.

              There are many more stories, but we are creating a huge, huge memory hole at this very point in time. Maybe now that hte issue has caught the attention of th emovie industry, something might be done about it. Maybe not. Maybe 10,000 years from now the only thing left of our society to prove we were here might be our left over waste form nuke reactors that is still hot.

  55. Paper Based storage by frostilicus2 · · Score: 1

    Recently an article concerning high efficiency (~250GB on an A4 sheet) paper based storage was posted on Slashdot. Assuming that the article wasn't a scam, then this would provide a good solution for long term archival. Long term archival of paper documents is well understood, provides massive redundancy through easy duplication and requires minimal maintainance.

    --
    Nothing sucks like a Vax, nothing blows like a PowerMac G4
    1. Re:Paper Based storage by imsabbel · · Score: 1

      It _was_ a scam, and you have to be horribly gullible and avoid of any kind of physic and IT knowledge not to realize it.

      --
      HI O WISE PRINCE. WHT TOOK U SO DAM LONG?
    2. Re:Paper Based storage by frostilicus2 · · Score: 1

      I've just read the article (I only remembered the headline) and I admit that this leaves my post completely redundant.

      Never mind...

      --
      Nothing sucks like a Vax, nothing blows like a PowerMac G4
  56. Take a lesson from USENET News... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Break the data into manageable chunks and use SmartPar (or equivalent) to make recovery files that can repair any one of the chunks. The up-side is you don't need many redundant full backups of the entire data set.

    The wide-spread adoptage of SmartPar has been significant in enabling the error-free transmission of huge files via USENET News.

    http://parchive.sourceforge.net/

    "Because this new approach doesn't benefit from like sized files, it drastically extends the potential applications of PAR. Files such as video, music, and other data can remain in a usable format and still have recovery data associated with them.

    The technology is based on a 'Reed-Solomon Code' implementation that allows for recovery of any 'X' real data-blocks for 'X' parity data-blocks present. (Data-blocks referring to files OR much smaller virtual slices of files)."

    AC

  57. Don't forget Leaving Las Vegas by arcite · · Score: 1

    and uh.... conair.. KIDDING!

    1. Re:Don't forget Leaving Las Vegas by Anonymous+McCartneyf · · Score: 1

      Actually, saving Con Air might be a good idea. I'll add The Rock and National Treasure as well, though I imagine most of you would not.
      Nicolas Cage is one of the more intellectual (read "less dumb") action heroes. He's also a relation of Francis Ford Coppola. For these reasons, his work should be saved--even if it's only so future generations can wonder exactly what this generation was thinking.

      --
      There is a fine line between recklessness and courage... -- Paul McCartney
  58. Do it the tried and true way by cellocgw · · Score: 1

    So: what media have survived for centuries or more, not this puny 5 to 10 years' worth for digital tapes or discs? You got it: etch in stone. So it will be a little bulkier than the 10 Commandments (the original ones, not the movie :-) ) but it'll last thru everything except a major volcano.

    --
    https://app.box.com/WitthoftResume Code: https://github.com/cellocgw
    1. Re:Do it the tried and true way by Petrushka · · Score: 1

      Stuff carved into stone has a very, very low survival ratio -- orders of magnitude lower than you're probably expecting. Clay is even worse. It lasts through almost nothing, other than by astounding flukes. (The only reason any survives at all is because, well, astounding flukes happen.)

  59. Store on plates of superhard material by The+Master+Control+P · · Score: 1

    It would be an absolute bitch, but if you really want it to last, engrave the data on a superhard oxide ceramic. Think Sapphire CD engraved ever-so-slowly by laser ablation. It'll never, ever "rot," it'll never get scratched unless you blast it with diamond powder, and it's stable forever at room temperature. Then it'll play back in an ordinary CD drive. If you're smart, engrave plates with pictures depicting the encoding method and data format, starting with basic physics of light diffraction.

    What it comes down to is, "How long do you want your data to last and be readable?" The more work you're willing to put in, and the lower the data density you can tolerate, the longer it'll last. Use stronger/harder materials, use as much material as practical to represent each bit, and make sure they're 100% stable compounds/arrangements. Think Egyptian hieroglyphs from 5000 years ago still being readable today, despite all the crap in the intervening millennia.

  60. Magnetic media... by Kjella · · Score: 1

    ...just aren't that great for preservation, but making it digital is still a sound practise

    1) Digitize it
    2) Create parity data
    3) Write to known persistant media

    For example, microfilm as we know that will last much much longer than a HDD or tape. Various forms of etchings, glass disks and whatnot are possible and also far more durable. In any case, I think everything that's been in public distribution gets recorded and kept by someone these days, sure we might lose the pristine 4k master copy but an image of any retail CD, DVD etc. should be more than doable.

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  61. Archiving in the Biz by Mogusha · · Score: 1

    After reading a number of the comments it seems that some don't quite understand what needs to be archived.

    Firstly, I work at a sound studio for post up in Canada, British Columbia, so I think I've learned a thing or two about the industry and even some of it's archival methods.

    Now, for film wise, what needs to be archived in a whole junkload of stuff, theres the raw dailies (or what they shot during the filming days), and the seperate versions of the edited prints. Sound wise, there's the edit sessions, then the re-recording versions. Which can add up to a hell of a lot of space (and yes I know it's a simplified version of it).

    So just in that if all that is backed up theres at least 2 levels of redundancy, and even more if you consider all the slightly older versions which could be used to recover the final version.

    The other thing is that even if you've lost parts of the one and the other, as long as there are only different parts lost they can be regenerated so to speak through the use of an EDL (Edit Decision List) which (should in theory) says all the SMPTE time-codes of all of the edits the picture editor did.

    There's another thing to, is that frequently if it's a video studio working with a sound studio, the sound studio will have a copy of the video on hand as well, merly for their backups incase the video ever comes back for fixes (yes, it does happen that 2, 3, 4 even 5 years down the road a client will come back with fixes.)

    At the studio I work at we have two layers of current version redundancy already when working on a project of each part. Tape backup for our final mix, hard drive (shelved after)of our final mix, tape backup of all of our working sessions, and a hard drive of our final mix sessions. On top of this we do daily backups of everything to tape.

    So it's fairly difficult to see how information can really get lost persay and seeing as we do the bottom of the barrel (uwe boll anyone?) and we have a backup system that has redundancy out the wazzu, I don't think the major studios should really have that much of an issue with loss.

  62. Preserving films by Anonymous+McCartneyf · · Score: 1

    Have you watched Turner Classic Movies lately?
    There is no such thing as an obsolete film, not as long as there are film fanatics. The studios will remove less-than-profitable films from the market, at least temporarily. They'll destroy physical copies, but they don't usually destroy all the physical copies of a film: after a few years off the market, a new generation of film fanatics will be curious about that film, and the studios can make another small profit then by reissuing it. Repeat this cycle often enough, and even a film like Liz Taylor's Cleopatra can make a profit.
    Studios are usually good about shifting formats for films they own. They can advertise that this new format shows the film better than it has ever looked since it was in the theaters. They can resell the film in the new format--hey, Slashdot considers that an ulterior motive any time new formats for films come up. It doesn't hurt that if there's been any change in the package since the last issue, or any real remastering, then the whole edition often gets a fresh copyright.

    --
    There is a fine line between recklessness and courage... -- Paul McCartney