Slashdot Mirror
QuickTime .MOV + Toshiba + Vista = BSOD
Question Guy writes "Apple QuickTime is involved in a troubling problem that doesn't seem to be addressed by any of the major software and hardware manufacturers involved. On Toshiba machines, such as the Protege Tablet M400s, with Windows Vista installed, opening a locally stored QuickTime .MOV causes instant bluescreen. All other video functions seem to be working in other video playback types — even streaming .MOVs work — and there is little to no 'buzz' on the Net that might push any of the parties to investigate or to play nice together (Microsoft for Vista, Intel for the GMA945 chipset, Toshiba for their custom tablet software, Apple for QuickTime). Help, anyone?"
An appropriate title for both Vista and Quicktime!
Vista = BSOD
:)
There, fixed the title for you.
You may try with VLC media player.
Works very well with tons of formats.
Uses its own codecs.
Free and open source.
Available for Windows (and also Mac OS X and Linux).
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Help, anyone?
You can find a patch for this problem here.
It says "playing a .MOV file". A .mov (MooV) file is a container format for codecs. iTunes doesn't use a "QuickTime Player" it uses QuickTime.
It almost sounds like a particular driver or something is crashing when trying to do hardware acceleration of a particular codec (like H.264). The author seems like they're shooting bullets of blame in a wild and uncontrollable manner.
The fact that it crashed was probably Apple's "bad", but the fact that it resulted in a BSOD is obviously Vista.
Maybe this has to do with the added layer of complexity (presumably for DRM) between the kernel and video-utilizing programs... or is that just for DirectX programs?
Latewire
Why is a story about a guys computer crashing on here?
If it was a problem with a specific model, I could understand it, but it's just one guy!!!
last I knew apple hadn't updated quicktime or itunes, for Vista. So people are running into problems with a heavily drm'd OS not properly running applications that weren't designed to run on it.
should i be surprised?
i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
In your question you stated that the Toshiba laptop runs custom tablet software. If all other configurations of Vista, the Intel Chipset, Quicktime, and other variables work fine, you have just eliminated them as possibilities but the Tablet software. More than likely there is some call within the tablet software doing with the display that interacts when a Mov. is trying to be played locally, which causes conflict. Also, why is this Slashdot worthy?
Welcome to the Entropy Bar, may I take your order?
No, it couldn't... If you're running as an unprivileged user, the software you run shouldn't possibly be able to crash your OS.
Drivers can, and bugs in the OS can. User-run programs can only (accidentally) trigger one of those... in which case, that's a DoS exploit in the system.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
>You may try with VLC media player.
>Works very well with tons of formats.
except the format in question... VLC can't play most modern quicktime movies.
The real issue here is a bad driver, which could be anyone's fault *but* quicktime's. That said, for most purposes VLC or mediaplayer classic is a better player on windows than quicktime.
I got a Toshiba Protege M400 about a mont ago. And I have had this problem consitantly. Since I watch alot of Video Podcast using iTunes. I have searched the web for solutions to tis problem and have gotten noware. Hopefully now that it made slashdot somthing will get done about it.
I installed Vista on my MacPro - in 12 minutes, i had a successfully BSOD'd Vista by playing a standard DiVX 6.0 file on Vista. (yesssss... i installed the drivers for everything)
I think (i do not know - so back off, i'm guessing) that there is some kind of problem with Vista and video... at least, i'm seeing a trend.
Considering the amount of work Microsoft put into preventing people from playing (assumedly pirated) video, I don't think its much of a strech to believe that its much harder for developers to make video playback software. I know that i read a very long article that talked about video card compliance and every 30ms being polled by the OS or some such bullshit, but i don't recall the link. But it was quite long, very extensive, and seemed to me that Vista's goal was not to provide a system which would foster video content creation - but rather, just the opposite.
its rather sad, actually. Microsoft/Adobe and MS/AVID had the makings of at least pitiful competition for Apple/Apple & Apple/Avid... (Apple/Adobe? Yeah, not so much any more after NAB). I actually LIKE competition, because it means that Apple and their developers actually have to work to make better products.
With all of the pain that's obivously involved with working HD video (which inclueds VIEWING IT) on Vista, there won't be much competition. If Vista is a shitty at video work as its looking to be, i suspect that Apple will be able to kick back on the beach with a mai-tai and not have to evern try... i mean, HD playback is 100% zero effort (assuming you aren't trying to do it on a PowerBook 520c) in Mac OS X - there's no DRM invovled whatsoever (except for BR and HDDVDs).... and the video cards Just Work(TM), and Quicktime just works, and VLC just works and DIVX just works.... etc.
sucks to have your workflow based upon a product that is EOL in 7 months (Windows XP + ___________). Personally, i don't care. I've long stopped caring about the abuse people that use Windows for video work put themselves thru... sure, Windows did some things faster back in the day, but all of that is totally gone now, isn't it?
Now, its all about the OS.
guns kill people like spoons make Rosie O'Donnell fat.
that he blames quicktime for a BSOD...
Nothing but a bad driver, bad hardware, or a *bad kernel* can cause a BSOD (read kernel panic). It doesn't matter that other movie players don't cause it. If the driver's and kernel didn't have a bug, it would be impossible for *any* userspace application, quicktime or otherwise, to cause a kernel panic.
Quicktime isn't the greatest movie player ever... but it couldn't possibly be at the root of this problem. It is clearly simply exposing an underlying problem.
I must say that I've seen a spate of strange crashes and stuff with the last few point updates to QuickTime on both Macs and PCs. The last update solved a few of them, but in my current line of work (which is IT sysadmin for a media company with 200+ machines) QuickTime functioning properly is vital to business.
.mov files. There's a chance it could be an issue with your machine and specific encoding method that certain types of .mov files use. Thirdly, I'd try some other media files in it, like mp4 video or H.264. These can also be played back in other players and success or failure would point you in the direction of whether it's QuickTime or something deeper - such as a graphics driver - at fault.
First port of call would be QuickTime itself. As there are 'known issues' with iTunes and Vista, and we know that QuickTime and iTunes integrate pretty closely, I'd uninstall the iTunes/Quicktime install and try installing just the standalone player. There could be iTunes hooks into QuickTime that might be breaking something. It also makes sure you've got the most recent QuickTime install.
This has fixed a few of the problems I've seen over the past few months.
Secondly, I'd try a variety of different
Thirdly, I'd think back and ask yourself if you've seen any other odd graphic behaviour on your PC recently. That might indicate a driver issue. Make usre in cases like this that you're using the manufacturer approved drivers.
Fourthly, I'd look at downloading Microsoft's Application Compatibility Tools and seeing whether there's anything on your machine that doesn't run under Vista. Specifically look out for items with a graphical angle such as screen managers etc.
Install Quicktime Alternative (http://www.free-codecs.com/download/QuickTime_Alt ernative.htm)
i ve.htm
Then try using media player classic to open the file. Quicktime alternative is a freeware quicktime codec, and will let you watch quicktime movies in an application of your choice. See also: http://www.free-codecs.com/download/Real_Alternat
There is no need to be tied to realplayer or quicktime on windows.
Nothing from Apple yet, but you can always checkout the Axiotron ModBook... Sounds interesting.
i have a small home-based audio recording studio, and i'm becoming more involved in the whole computer music scene. from what i gather, quite a large number of studios have decided to switch entirely to Mac for production environments. i guess vista stepped on so many toes that a lot of shops that run XP have been migrating to Macs and plan to be exclusively apple shops, even before XP's end of life. for some reason, professionals seem to be pissed off that MS wants to control what they do with their own data.. can't imagine why.
"Luke, you've switched off your targeting computer, what's wrong?"
> from the puzzler dept.
The part that's puzzling is why we need to summon all the readers of the Slashdot front page to fix this guy's laptop.
It's a new Vista feature reminding you to switch to Windows Media Player.
...and we run Windows XP, not Vista.
:)
Any attempt to watch a Quicktime file from a local drive results in problems (usually an instant bluescreen, but sometimes general breakage -- taskbar not responding, apps not closing when ordered, menus not responding, that sort of thing).
Viewing a movie that exists elsewhere on the network is fine. Viewing a movie from the Internet still breaks things, presumably because it's still getting cached to the local drive.
They're not brand-name computers, but they were all put together by the same place, presumably with similar specs. Nobody's dug into it too deeply, we've just gotten used to moving all *.mov files to a network drive before viewing.
back in the day (circa 2002) i was working with a cruddy old machine and wanted to watch some divx on it.. but wmp kept stuttering.. so i installed quicktime and used it.. it used 20% less resources and its dependability was the first of many factors which got me to switch to mac.
that said, quicktime 7 was a major step down from 6.x because they broke the caching (making it stutter even on osX), but that has nothing to do with the platform it runs on.
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
So my wireless USB dongle stopped working when I upgraded to Ubuntu 7.04. It seems Network Manager doesn't like the rt73usb driver, or just about any RALink driver judging by the Ubuntu Forums. Help, anyone?
/. isn't the place to post bug reports? Could've fooled me...
What, you mean
Spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, and stupid comments are intentional.
Someone post the source code to the OS, drivers, and player and we'll have a look.
Oh, wait ...
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
Vista ain't done, till QuickTime won't run.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
The article you probably mean is Peter Gutmann's A Cost Analysis of Windows Vista Content Protection, which memorably coined the phrase,
At least, we can hope.
you had me at #!
This isn't news. Quicktime is a horrible piece of software. I have personaly tested about 50 machines with various SCSI controllers in Windows XP and 2003 which either BSOD in Quicktime, or get horrible audio/video syncing problems.
The only commonality was they all used LSI or Adaptec SCSI controllers. Playing off an IDE drive or SATA drive worked fine.
We sent bug reports to Apple and Microsoft, ran traces on the programs, and it always came down to Quicktime.
Microsoft made a hotfix available that was a workaround, something to do with caching the data to page first, then sending it to quicktime, but it was a slow and dirty hack.
Apple said it was the SCSI controllers sending corrupt data, which was rediculous, every single other application, media, worked perfect.
Quicktime shittyness is HARDLY anything new at all.
Brent Jones
Running PcAnywhere on your XP laptop that happens to be a Toshiba, and apparently in combination with a Symantec AV product (NAV IIRC) would result in a guranteed blue screen on every shutdown.
s ervice1.symantec.com/SUPPORT/pca.nsf/1ab3f998698d6 46f88256f48005b9e71/b998f8fb40c5dc3988256dea000204 6d%3FOpenDocument+site:symantec.com+toshiba+shutdo wn+pcanywhere&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au&client=fire fox-a
Had never seen that before with this software combination on any laptop except some Toshibas at work back in the day.
Nearest KB article I could find on Symantec was 2003112516321112, but it's only available via Google cache at http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:FBy7QXRHzIIJ:
Perhaps Microsoft will be in a little bit more of a hurry when the hackers figure out what is causing the BSOD from Vista and work it into the next custom malware?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
All those years of development and a user app still can crash the whole system? Or do they really run video player codecs at kernel level?
Amazing! Looks like they didn't learn anything after NT 3.51.
If the IT world was managed by competent people instead of clueless businessmen, people would be fired for choosing a Microsoft product for anything serious.
I'm not trying to appear to be an Apple fanboy but any OS that allows an app to cause a BSOD (or freeze or whatever) should be considered the culprit, shouldn't it?
Sure, you can write a bad app, one that crashes or doesn't get along with other apps but shouldn't a modern OS prevent any app from being able to take the whole system down?
Maybe Apple needs to work on QT for Vista but MS really needs to take ownership of the problem at this level IMHO.
You know that there has been a few update since version 0.01, don't you ?
Seriously, almost any modern MOV file either uses standard MPEG 4 (MPEG-4 SP/H263 and AVC/H264) or some variation of (Sorenson is a derivative of H264). The former is a standard, the later was successfully reverse-engineered and implemented in FFmpeg a couple of years ago.
Even the latest WMV compression formats are currently being implemented into FFmpeg and thus available to VLC.
RealVideo is pretty much everything that is still in use today and not supported by VLC. Specially since the advent of video Podcasts, PSP and cameraphones, there's a strong nove toward standardizing on non proprietary codecs like the various MPEG4.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Quicktime has always caused me problems with any version of Windows at home. I have perfectly stable systems Windows systems (I know, it's weird) until I install Quicktime and then it's only a matter of time.
I've never understood the reason why Quicktime needs to be installed in the system tray anyway. I play movies with it from time to time, I don't use it otherwise, and I doubt many do.
HOLY CRAP
/., I almost went OUTSIDE before I heard of this.
I'm glad I checked
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Looks like they didn't learn anything after NT 3.51.
Regressed, mate. NT 3.51 had the graphics drivers in user space. NT 4.0 moved them into kernel space.
Not that this is unusual, but it *did* serve as an advantage that NT used to have back in the day.
Here is an example of an idiot trying to look smart. Have you bothered to have someone look at the memory dump? What was the stop code? Did you check the event logs?
The fact is, it could be ANY of the three things mentioned or NONE of them. It could be an anti virus filter driver. It could be a memory access violation in Kernel Mode memory. It could have absolutely nothing to do with Vista or QT or even the Toshiba's drivers. It could be that the author is just stupid.
I'm leaning in the direction that this author is simply ignorant but since he felt he should write an article and place blame with minimal evidence to support his claim, he falls solidly in the stupid category.
The only fact that the author has presented is that he had a BSOD when using QT on Vista on Toshiba hardware when playing a local file. That only gives you suspects. A lawyer should know better. I've had occasions where customers swore up and down that one product was causing a BSOD and the memory dump pointed squarely at another product. Rarely (on XP) did I ever see a memory dump that actually pointed the finger at Windows. More often than not, I've seen memory dumps caused by filter drivers used by anti virus.
Perhaps Mr Fishkin should write more about being a lawyer because he damn well doesn't know much about computers.
There is nothing inherently safe about liberty. That's why so many people died protecting it.
Space must have collapsed into its self due to too much terrible design being in the same place at the same time. A Toshiba laptop + Quicktime for Windows + Microsoft Vista?! This guy is lucky to be alive.
Speaking as someone who works with Macs all day long and has had to troubleshoot problems like this many many times, the person who wrote this article seems like a bit of a fool to me. The kind of person that has just enough knowledge to be dangerous (to himself). This reminds me of those situations like when your Dad (thinks) he knows about computers, and in fact my Senior Citizen detector was going off on every line he wrote.
The stupid thing is that he blames Apple in the end but at the same time seems to narrow the issue down to a driver problem with his tablet PC. That's just bad thinking all around. The art of troubleshooting is in the elimination of possibilities. If it works everywhere but on his tablet PC the problem is definitely in his tablet PC, which he even mentions in the article yet simultaneously doesn't know where the problem is? WTF?
He also links to an entire *other* article he has written about driver support that indicates he knows very little about what to do on the Mac when the hardware is not instantly recognised or indeed, much of anything about drivers. The problem he relates in *that* article is about getting a brand new "high end" HP printer and it's driver to work with his old G4.
When this computer was manufactured, it would have shipped with OS 9.0, then he would have upgraded it to OS-X, then 10.2, 10.3, 10.4 etc. Then he goes out and buys a bleeding edge HP printer and is stymied when it doesn't "just work"??? He also has to go through extensive tech support to find out that the thing probably would work with an older driver, but it would have a reduced feature set. Hello? Hasn't he heard of the "Generic PostScript driver"??? This is the solution for all old hardware and if he had the experience he claimed, he would probably know that.
As others have pointed out, Quicktime uses standard calls and standard protocols, it's an *.mp4 file for cripes sake. The problem here is more likely with some proprietary screen-re-drawing code in the tablet PC.
This guy is that very dangerous combination of a "dabbler," but with a world-wide audience.
Aloha everyone,
:)
:) Of course, that in part was the point, right?
I'm out here and thanks in part to Slashdot, my M400 tablet is playing quicktime movies like a champ now
The rant below aside, I DO very much appreciate the community thought that went into this, the response was great and that seems to have gotten the attention of Toshiba, which has issued a new RAID driver.
So, for whatever reason I still don't understand, Quicktime was accessing hard drives , those controlled by the SATA RAID controller in the laptop AND the ones hooked up by USB (external drives)in such a different way that the computer BSOD'ed every time.
I don't pretend to understand it fully, I just knew from the start that it was some fundamental level of tinkering I couldn't do on my own.
A hearty thanks to everyone who offered advice, called me or the author an idiot, or delved deeper into information that couldn't have been contained in the paltry few sentances I wrote for the story submission. hehe. I went out to lunch to buy some RAM, and there were 200 posts, so I'm sorry I wasn't more involved in giving MORE information. I know that everyone needed it, but I missed the window on timing, I think... who knew it would get accepted and start up such a fire-storm of responses?
It reminds me of that maxim "Whe you assume, you make an ass out of u and me.
Submit a vexing problem to Slashdot, give just enough information for people to identify it and hope and pray that someone smart, informed, kind slashdotter would know the answer when all the google queries in the world, tech support hours wasted and dead end hunches didn't get me anywhere.
Hooray for everyone!
This isn't a problem with Toshiba. My custom built machine at work does this as well. I custom built the machine some time ago just for Vista (of course then Vista was delayed and delayed). Its as follows: AMD x2 3800+, 2GB kingston memory, Nvidia 7600gs, nforce 4 motherboard (430 I believe). The machine was completely stable on XP. Ever since installing vista there is one thing that will blue screen it nearly every time - watching .mov files in iTunes. Opening actual .mov files outside of iTunes doesn't always bluescreen it but the videos play like a powerpoint show. I've installed every nvidia video driver out there, even the latest beta drivers.
Of course, the other way to bluescreen my system is to install nvidia drivers. So perhaps its nvidia and not apple?
In any case, Vista has been a terrible experience, and seeing as I'm in charge of the IT department at my company we have canceled our plans to upgrade anytime soon. Perhaps after sp1. We rely heavily on MS applications as we consult for other companies that use MS apps so going to Linux or Mac is not an option. But we'll stay with XP for as long as possible. In fact, as an admin I've loved XP. The improvement from 95 to 98 to 2000 and then XP and the improvement from NT 4 to Server 2000 & 2003 had really gotten my hopes up that Microsoft would deliver on Vista.
Unfortunately, they FUBAR'ed it.
um let me run this scenario by you. you're finishing up your long 226 legal brief in Microsoft word. you go to click file save, but the directory you are saving to has 400 files. windows does some internal file processing and starts eating up the final 10k of available physical memory. swapping begins to occur until your sound card that was playing your favorite midi throws an error because windows did not feed data in time. the sound card drive freaks out, and returns a failure to the midi app. the midi app, not prepared for this, starts an infinite loop eating all of your available memory. eventually you overflow the stack and your windowing system is hosed.
you shake the mouse and click repeatedly hoping to unfreeze the computer. you hit control alt delete, nothing happens. you reset the computer silently hoping word's autosave worked for once.
now, my question to you.. is the above story what you are implying is happening here? (answer this question honestly before you continue)
because that is what happened back in Windows 3.1. Since the creation of modern operating systems, we have learned to take advantage of advanced hardware and separate each application into its own memory space (see: Intro to Operating Systems at your local community college). Thus, a single application should NOT take down your entire system. If an application is causing a BSOD and there is no funky kernel-mode hardware access going on.. the fault is on the hardware or OS (to include drivers as well). Period.
If you wish to debate this, remember that I may have just found a way to compromise your system.
Aloha everyone,
,thanks in part to Slashdot, my M400 tablet is playing quicktime movies like a champ now :)
:) Of course, that in part was the point, right?
I'm out here in Hawaii and
The rant below aside, I DO very much appreciate the community thought that went into this, the response was great and that seems to have gotten the attention of Toshiba, which has issued a new RAID driver.
So, for whatever reason I still don't understand, Quicktime was accessing hard drives , those controlled by the SATA RAID controller in the laptop AND the ones hooked up by USB (external drives)in such a different way that the computer BSOD'ed every time.
I don't pretend to understand it fully, I just knew from the start that it was some fundamental level of tinkering I couldn't do on my own.
A hearty thanks to everyone who offered advice, called me or the author an idiot, or delved deeper (too deep) into information that couldn't have been contained in the paltry few sentances I wrote for the story submission. hehe. I went out to lunch to buy some RAM, and then there were 200 posts, so I'm sorry I wasn't more involved in giving MORE information. I know that everyone needed it, but I missed the window on timing, I think... who knew it would get accepted and start up such a fire-storm of responses?
It reminds me of that maxim "Whe you assume, you make an ass out of u and me."
Submit a vexing problem to Slashdot, give just enough information for people to identify it and hope and pray that someone smart, informed, kind slashdotter would know the answer when all the google queries in the world, tech support hours wasted and dead end hunches didn't get me anywhere.
Hooray for everyone!
An application shouldn't consume excessive resources.
If an application attempts to consume excessive resources, the OS should not allow that. Appropriate responses might include failing to provide the resource, or terminating the application. A BSOD terminates everything--plainly not the correct response.
Now, considering the .MOV+Toshiba+Vista situation... something in kernel space is plainly wrong. It might be MS code or Toshiba code. We don't know. Something in application space might be wrong too; but it makes sense to fix bugs in code that runs in the kernel first. Then, if the application "hangs" or triggers a more manageable exception (The little popup window that doesn't crash the whole OS, whatever they call that on Vista) then we know that the application had problems too. If that doesn't happen, then the application was innocent all along.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
Still, a user space app should never be able to produce a BSOD, even if it is pushing the limits. It's the OSes job to keep apps from going haywire, no matter what. They use that stuff in medical devices, airplanes and space travel, forget? It's like Windows should never execute (!) a mail attachment only according to the MIME type without looking at the file itself: The single largest problem with trojans and worms. A design error is a design error.
open (SIG, "</dev/zero"); $sig = <SIG>; close SIG;
What release of Quicktime? What drivers for your SCSI devices? Where's the detail? You even mention a "fix" from Microsoft but don't bother to give a knowledge base reference or link. I call bullshit on you.
Like the OP (troll), you never say if use any of the Quicktime software features to test?
Quicktime lets you turn off DirectX drawing. It provides check boxes for a Safe mode (GDI only), DirectDraw acceleration (incl. secondary monitors), Direct3D video acceleration. Did you tick the boxes in your Quicktime movie to "Preload this track" for both the audio & video tracks? Did that solve your "SCSI" problem or the sync problem?
No kernel panic, no system hosing here, ok?
It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
If any client asks for more than its fair share of resources, DENY them to it. Then, and only then, this is a client's bug. If you ask for more and more of my resources and I keep giving them to you until I myself starve, it's MY problem, not yours.
It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
I had this exact same problem a couple of years ago, it was caused by bad (terrible) drivers for the Adaptec SATA card I had (1210sa, using Sil 3112 chipset).
Moving the mov file to any drive not using that controller and it played perfectly.
From the 1210sa, an instant unrecoverable lock would occur. maybe 5% of mov's I tried wouldn't lock the drive, but those that did it was a definite and 100% repeatable problem, irrespective of player used, or quicktime version.
I reported it to Adaptec several times, as it was fixed and then broken again with different releases, but never acknowledged.
Changed to a Promise controller instead.
Has a nice ring to it.
If you just went and compiled the code I wrote without thinking carefully about what you were doing, you have a serious security issue which you really ought to resolve ;)
All joking aside, it's a basic forkbomb. Quite a few unixes and clones (clearly not FreeBSD) will just keep on generating processes until such time as the process table fills up, which takes a fraction of a second. And once the process table is full, no more processes can be started - you can't even log in because even if the logon process is running, once it's authenticated you it will try and execute your shell and fail.
Someone upthread executed it with a ulimit - yes, that will prevent it from making your system unusable but that's a piece of userland configuration. The point I was making is that unless userland is appropriately configured (something which is omitted surprisingly often), it's quite easy to render a computer next to useless without crashing it as such, even from userland.