Slashdot Mirror


You Can't Oppose Copyright and Support Open Source

Reader gbulmash sends us to his essay on the fallacy of those who would abolish copyright. The argument is that without copyright granting an author the right to set licensing terms for his/her work, the GPL could not be enforced. The essay concludes that if you support the GPL or any open source license (other than public domain), your fight should be not about how to abolish copyright, but how to reform copyright.

72 of 550 comments (clear)

  1. In a world without copyright... by c0l0 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...it would be possible to have commented disassemblies of everything that a computer can run openly available. That would be a lot better than the situation we have right now in SOME cases (by far not all of course - but please note you could still publish sourcecode in a more high-level language if you felt like it ;)) when there are only legally encumbered BLOBs available for crucial components of a system like, for example, graphics or network drivers, which you may execute, but not touch in any other way (in the US at least, that is).

    Summa summarum, I think it's better to live in a world with copyright in place.
    I just - like many other fellow advocates of Free Software - would wish for more people to publish their works under more permissive and freedom-granting licenses: to have art, culture, knowledge and wisdom spread for the greater good, and not just immediate, monetary profit in the first place.

    Bottom line is: supporting Free Software and/or the GNU GPL does not automagically make you speak out against copyright per se at all.

    --
    :%s/Open Source/Free Software/g

    YTARY!
    1. Re:In a world without copyright... by HeavensBlade23 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It would be *possible* that things would become more open without copyrights, but it wouldn't neccessarily happen. Companies might be come even more secretive about their source code since secrecy would be the only method of protection they have left.

    2. Re:In a world without copyright... by Darundal · · Score: 2

      Your wish runs counter to the fact that people act for their own self interests. The copyright is just a way to make sure that people have incentive, by (theoretically) allowing the amount of money a person makes to be a result of the quality and usefulness of their labor. Those who publish under the GPL and other licenses are people who either are smart enough to build up companies with their own code, let everyone else look at it and do what they want with it, and basically still make money from those their work benefits, or who work for companies already and see their own efforts as volunteerism that will possibly at one point or another offer some return. However, the guy who wrote the article is totally and completely batshiat crazy; he assumes that using the system to produce results closest to those that one desires automatically means one doesn't desire a lack of the system.

    3. Re:In a world without copyright... by the_mighty_$ · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This is silly. Copyrights are not necessary. All you need is respect for contracts. Example: a programmer writes code. Then he gives the code to his friend after asking his friend to contract that he will agree to release all his modifications to the source code (or whatever) and that the friend will require anyone he gives the code to to agree to the same contract. Viola. Open source without copyright law.

      --
      VI VI VI - the editor of the beast!
    4. Re:In a world without copyright... by Babbster · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I just - like many other fellow advocates of Free Software - would wish for more people to publish their works under more permissive and freedom-granting licenses: to have art, culture, knowledge and wisdom spread for the greater good, and not just immediate, monetary profit in the first place.

      Immediate, monetary profit is what copyright-reform advocates want to protect. As a current example, I think Sony/Marvel/etc. should have the right to make as much dough as they can on the recently released Spider-Man 3 for the next 10 years. After that, it should enter the public domain. The same, I think, should apply to software, books, etc. I could probably be convinced that a reasonable compromise would be 20 years (at least until corporations actually get used to having to create instead of indefinitely rehash). Any longer than that, with high-speed distribution (get the product out) and the availability of numerous and sophisticated marketing methods (let people know about the product), actually serves to stifle creativity more than it helps.
    5. Re:In a world without copyright... by shawb · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In my opinion, that would be a far worse scenario than copyright law. Anybody purchasing software or media would have to agree to licensing contracts to use it. These contracts would likely be at least as binding as current contracts. The only difference is that there is no expiration on the contracts, and therefore the information would never reach the public domain. Under copyright law, the information in theory will eventually reach the public domain and be usable by society as a whole without an arduous contract. It may be said that the current copyright system is broken, but simply getting rid of it will cause more harm than good.

      On a different note, it is not necessarily incongruous to simultaneously hold the belief that copyright is bad while supporting open source. One can feel that copyright inherently causes harm to society, but still support open source as a means to work within a system that is already broken. True, without copyright open source would be unenforceable. But without copyright, one would also have no need to enforce the GPL, as any releases made would be into the public domain assuming it is possible to disassemble the software. This includes software that incorporates code that would have been released under the GPL, satisfying what I see to be the intent of the drafters of the GPL.

      --
      I'll never make that mistake again, reading the experts' opinions. - Feynman
    6. Re:In a world without copyright... by umofomia · · Score: 2, Interesting

      In essence, your idea is no different than a trade secret and your contracts become NDAs. However, if your code ever leaks to someone without a contract, they will be able to do whatever they want with it and you will have no legal recourse, which is the point the article is trying to make.

    7. Re:In a world without copyright... by samkass · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This article seems to equate "open source" with the GPL. BSD and Apache licenses would have much less problem with lack of copyright.

      --
      E pluribus unum
    8. Re:In a world without copyright... by ActionGaz · · Score: 3, Insightful

      However, the guy who wrote the article is totally and completely batshiat crazy; he assumes that using the system to produce results closest to those that one desires automatically means one doesn't desire a lack of the system. I disagree. If a lack of copyright is what you desire for your creations that already exists now within the current system. You simply put them into the public domain. The fact that this isn't what people want to do means that they do, as the author suggests, want to retain some control over their creation and so use the GLP or Creative Commons or some similar system.
    9. Re:In a world without copyright... by Planesdragon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Open source without copyright law.

      No, not really.

      If you don't have copyright (or patent) to your code, I receive no consideration when I take your code and use it in my project. Once I have seen the code, I have all that I need. I can simply ignore what your contract says, state that I have been given nothing of value to compel me to release what I do in kind.

      The day-to-day effect of OSS would be the same -- free as in beer software, because there's no law that keeps you from handing your buddy a DVD-R with every piece of software you own. Copyleft, however, would disappear.

      (Remember that, if you nullified copyright today, it would apply to every OSS project in existence. MS could take Linux with impunity, Apple could (and would) give a big finger to BSD, and everyone from IBM to Dell would never pay another dollar to an out-of-house software developer ever again -- because they've already got all that they need.)

    10. Re:In a world without copyright... by dircha · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "But without copyright, one would also have no need to enforce the GPL, as any releases made would be into the public domain assuming it is possible to disassemble the software."

      I think there's some confusion here about Open Source and Free Software. The GPL is just a license that uses a technique called Copyleft to proliferate Free Software in the current legal setting. But there is plenty of non-Copylefted Free Software.

      The FSF advocates that all software should be Free Software; software that satisfies the 4 essential freedoms of software users (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html). But Free Softare is not in any way dependent on copyright law. The definition of Free Software makes no reference to copyright. And you don't need to settle for copyright vs. essential freedoms and resort to relying on disassembling software or something like that.

      Instead, you can advocate that software should be covered by law that mandates the 4 essential freedoms of software users, in addition to, or in place of copyright.

      The FSF (the publisher of the GPL) is not anti-copyright per se. It is pro-software freedom. It is a logically sound position. If this position is appealing to you, read up on it. Don't let blogger prattle throw you like that.

    11. Re:In a world without copyright... by Chandon+Seldon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There's no reason to link patents and copyright as all. Patents are a monstrosity that is destroying any sort of commercial innovation or scientific progress while killing poor children and destroying the economy with lawyer-bound monopolies supported by patent exchange agreements.

      Copyright, on the other hand, seems to have socially redeeming value. It allows the creation of at least three types of expressive work that would be much more difficult in a world without copyright: High budget Movies, TV Shows, and Video Games.

      --
      -- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
    12. Re:In a world without copyright... by iminplaya · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Actually patents are what protect method of implementation of an idea, and you were at one time supposed to bring a model or at least a drawing(since perveted by relaxed definition of what is patentable) of that method to the patent office. A single idea can have many methods, each one of them individually patentable*. For example, look at the fight between Glenn Curtiss and the Wright Brothers. Aircraft advancement** slowed to a crawl until the government took over the patent during world war I. And that's when things really took off, so to speak. Anyway, I am saying you have no right to exclusivity. You only have the real natural right to, for lack of a better word, "authorship", simply because it is impossible for one to be a creator of something that was created by someone else. IP*** is a fallacious claim of ownership. You have no right to dictate what I can do with what I possess. My copy is my copy. Yours is yours. What you are trying to do is to recollect the smoke that was let out of the bottle. Well, you can't. Only by the use of physical force can you make such false claims. Copyright was created out of the exact same reasoning 297 years ago as it is used to today, to protect an established industry. And I restate the only legitimate claim in ALL of this is that of authorship. Those who plagiarize are the only ones that should be looked after. Distribution and use is not for you or anyone else to control. There is no logical defense for operating this way. Attribution is your only rightful claim, and it is one that even I would defend.

      *didn't help Curtiss though.

      **In every instance I can find IP law has always slowed developement of virtually everything until it copyright/patent expired.

      ***which covers copyrights AND patents, so patents are not irrelevant. They are every bit as much a part of the picture as copyright.

      --
      What?
    13. Re:In a world without copyright... by Daengbo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The ironic thing about this article's stance is that RMS didn't want copyright on software at all: he felt that the code should be free. He created the GPL because he lived in a world with copyright and needed to use its power to protect code from being closed. I'm not trying to start a flame-fest between BSD and GPL over what constitutes "Free" here, so I'll explain. Because of the computing culture RMS grew up in (where code was freely distributed and copied), he felt that he should be able to take anyone else's code and add to it without fear while giving the same rights to others. If he had followed the BSD style license, he wouldn't have had the freedom to take from people who had closed the source, only to give.

      The GPL only has teeth because of copyright, but RMS wouldn't have needed to create the GPL if there hadn't been copyright on software in the first place.

    14. Re:In a world without copyright... by mrchaotica · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Remember that, if you nullified copyright today, it would apply to every OSS project in existence. MS could take Linux with impunity...

      And the community could take Windows with impunity too! That street runs both ways, you know. Sure, the source code would have to leak first, but that happens anyway despite copyright law and NDAs, and could only become more frequent without the threat of prosecution for criminal copyright infringement.

      Besides, without copyright, Microsoft's business model collapses anyway. When it's impossible to sell software on a per-copy basis, what advantage is there in keeping it closed-source?

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

  2. abolish copyright by nefarity · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Who are these amazing people that want to abolish copyright?

    1. Re:abolish copyright by Babbster · · Score: 2, Funny

      Anyone who supports the unrestricted duplication of (recently created) commercial copyrighted works is, IMHO, arguing for the abolition of copyright.

      I don't know about that. If I, for example, steal someone's car I'm not necessary against property rights in general; I'm just a thieving bastard. :)
    2. Re:abolish copyright by chromatic · · Score: 2

      It's the idea that is protected.

      Source, please. I prefer statute, though I will accept case law.

    3. Re:abolish copyright by KutuluWare · · Score: 4, Informative

      The author of TFA is seriously confused about a lot of things, one of those things being the goals of the Free Software Foundation. Stallman is probably one of the most extreme ultra-liberal people to ever sit at a keyboard, and yet I don't think he's ever once pushed for total abolition of copyright.

      What RMS and ideologically similar people have proposed is this: software should not be covered under copyright law. You can see this ideal most clearly if you head over to http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/philosophy.html and read the two articles called "Why Software Should {Be Free,Not Have Owners}". While I disagree with his philosophy, he makes a pretty solid empirical case for why software should not be "owned" in the same sense that books are "owned" by their author or art is "owned" by the artist.

      The author of the article also fails to pick up on a key point about the GPL and why it exists: because there is copyright law, the FSF must use copyright law to accomplish their goals. If software was suddenly declared ineligible for copyright, there'd be no need for the GPL because no proprietary software company could prevent people with access to their source code from modifying or redistributing it, nor could they prevent people from modifying or distributing binary copies of the software. This is a small step back from the current state where the group of people with access to the GPL'd source code includes everyone with a copy of the binary, but it's a giant leap forward in eliminating all the complex legal issues around who can copy what and where.



      --K

    4. Re:abolish copyright by WilliamSChips · · Score: 2, Informative
      Actually, plagiarizing ideas isn't enough for copyright infringement.

      While I'm not a lawyer, I can tell you the understanding that I have: Unless it can be shown that a work uses about a third of the written language of the source, or closely paraphrases it for many long passages, there is nothing actionable under the law. Ideas can't be copyrighted, nor can titles (titles can only be trademarked, and then only if you're using them for merchandising, and even then only if it's not a common word).
      --
      Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.
    5. Re:abolish copyright by Dragonslicer · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The slashdot crowd certainly seems to be pretty strongly anti-patent.
      I don't think most of the Slashdot crowd is anti-patent, just as they aren't anti-copyright. I think most of the Slashdot crowd just wants copyright and patents to be handled the way they were originally intended. Copyrights are supposed to expire after a specific, relatively short period of time, guaranteeing that the work would be incorporated into society as a whole, for society's benefit. I think you'll find a lot more people that want 25-year copyrights instead of 100-year copyrights than you'll find people that want no copyrights. Patents would probably get a similar response, with most people wanting 15-year patents on useful, non-obvious inventions, instead of the tons of patents on business methods and interface designs that we get now.
  3. You can oppose copyright ... and support BSD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Funny, I've never heard anyone say BSD wasn't open source.

  4. An argument from thin air. by reality-bytes · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The dangers of linking to someone taking a mental dump in their blog.

    The author in question cites an ethereal 'anti-copyright crowd' and proposes that this 'crowd' are those who would license their software under the GNU/GPL.

    I don't think I really need to point out that the reality is very different.

    --
    Ripping an new rectum in the fabric of spacetime.
    1. Re:An argument from thin air. by qbwiz · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The blog poster's overarching argument also does not make sense. If there is no copyright, any software can be copied and a disassembler applied to get the source code back out. So you would not need the GPL. With no copyright, there is no need for the GPL.

      Ah, because everyone knows that disassemblers are amazing at discovering the intent of deliberately obfuscated code (it will be obfuscated by the compiler, to prevent reverse-engineering). Who needs comments anyway? This is why the r300 and nouveau projects are so far along.
      --
      Ewige Blumenkraft.
  5. I've said it before by Profane+MuthaFucka · · Score: 3, Interesting

    And I've been modded down by some shifty Microsoft lovers that lurk here on this peaceful website. YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE..

    Anyway, the GPL is like a Judo move. It rests on the strength of copyright law. If you make copyright stronger, then you make the GPL stronger. It's like a Judo master using his opponent's strength against him.

    --
    Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
  6. Ahh, straw men by Z0mb1eman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "How can I get people to read my blog... I know, I'll pick an extreme opinion that few people actually hold, combine it with a more popular but unrelated opinion, and write a long argument to shoot the whole thing down as self-contradictory."

    Yes, mod me down -1 cynical.

    --
    ClutterMe.com - easiest site creation on the Net. Just click and type.
  7. Of course he's in favor of copyrights ... by WrongSizeGlass · · Score: 5, Funny
    From his blog:

    Brain Handles © 2007 All Rights Reserved. Looks like an objective opinion to me.
  8. Why abolish copyright? by KingKaneOfNod · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's a fundamentally good idea; people who create something have exclusive rights to sell it. Where things go wrong is when people decide to meddle with it, like continuously extending the period that it applies. Something like a 5 year limit would be appropriate in today's fast paced world. Just think; who here wants to buy a DVD or CD that is over 5 years old? Not unless it was originally issued in some other format, right? Don't confuse copyright with the fallacy of "intellectual property". Intellectual Property is a collection of laws (copyright, patents, trademarks, etc.) which should never be grouped together, because each is different and for a different purpose.

  9. Wrong, wrong, wrong... by iminplaya · · Score: 2, Insightful

    We only need GPL because of copyright. When it's all gone, all will be well. Trust me on this one. The only thing to be concerned about is plagiarism. Everything else is fluff. No matter who "takes" the code, they can't stop you from using it also. And without copyright restrictions you are free to build on the works of others and everybody will be given the opportunity to do just that. There is so much superior tech(Alpha chip!) being locked down and kept off the streets because of copyright. This must end now. Jeeze, this is so redundant. I've said this so many times, and many others have also, with much more eloquence than I can muster with my seventh grade writing skills.

    --
    What?
  10. Copyright by nlitement · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Copyright is fine as long as it doesn't go to idiotic extremities such as DMCA, causing obscure censoring like that recently on Digg or Wikipedia. Everything's good in moderation.

    1. Re:Copyright by iminplaya · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The classical example is "You write a song and someone performed it and makes millions off of your work." Copyrights are what make that illegal, and what make the GPL and other "copyleft" schemes possible.

      That's a load of bull. And the argument doesn't nor ever did wash. That's like saying if I fix a guy's car and he sells it for a million bucks, I should get a piece of that action. That's a no-go. I've been through all this before, and now it's just boring repetition. Check way back in my history for any clarification to the statement that I make right here, *You are wrong*. I have stated why many times. If you don't want to accept it, fine, but I know that you're wrong. Copyright and patent still fall under the generic heading of IP just like Christianity and Buddhism fall under the heading of religion. Amazingly similar concepts by the way. And that is the way I will continue to treat it. The simple fact is that without copyright nobody can legally close the source and keep me from it. I am free to do with my copy as I please, and I will enforce that right any way I can. And If you think that I use my ten year MMX only for slashdotting, well, that's just another error on your part. It also happens to run my local network experimental web/ftp/MySQL server. I use it to simulate how fast things work on dial up. My "real" work is on a P-III frankenstein(fronkensteen) soon to bump up to P-IV I picked out of the garbage, so I guess I am getting my money's worth.

      PATENTS let you screw over everyone who didn't think of it first.

      Copyright does the same. Many famous song writers got burned by some obscure copyright holder to a similar tune. The second guy who comes up with the same melody, quite independently from the first is SOL. Screw that. Unacceptable. Please don't try to tell me the same thing doesn't happen in software, or anywhere else affected by these insane laws.

      You managed to post to slashdot despite using an x86 machine, didn't you?

      Yeah, and I also walk instead of driving a car. So, I don't understand the statement. I simply use what's available. If I could post with a pencil and paper, I probably would. I'm just saying that IP law is limiting our choices, and that's not right. Never has been. It's too bad you can't draw an accurate picture of life without the absurd concept of IP, but there it is waiting for us to take the plunge, but I guess "you're just chicken, McFly". Scared the water might feel a little chilly at first. Okay, you go your way. I'll go mine. I will continue my work of getting rid of this abomination. Negative moderation be damned.

      Oh, and thanks for the link, now I have some good reading to do.

      --
      What?
  11. Another sophomoric Sunday blog post. by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 5, Insightful
    It's Sunday again, and there's another out-of-left-field editorial about Open Source just like last week. I wonder if Slashdot editors have a "flame schedule" to amp up the readership during what would otherwise be slow periods.

    His argument is putting up a straw man that doesn't really represent what RMS and FSF think, and then knocking it down.

    The FSF stance is that good software comes with source code and with a particular set of rights which should be yours regardless of whether copyright can be used to enforce those rights or not. Perhaps it would be some other sort of law, or perhaps an ethical norm.

    But IMO it would make about 100 times more sense to argue about software patents at the moment, because they are by far the worse evil.

    Bruce

    1. Re:Another sophomoric Sunday blog post. by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 4, Informative

      Not all of us can make a living being open source gasbags, you know. If it weren't for software patents, I would be a poor man.
      Prove it. I looked, and could not find any patents issued to "Anonymous Coward". :-)

      And by the way, my employer makes Open Source software for Wall Street investment banking firms. I am, however, also paid by customers (usually also Wall Street investment banks, but sometimes other entities) who want me to teach or lecture.

      Bruce

    2. Re:Another sophomoric Sunday blog post. by CAIMLAS · · Score: 2, Insightful

      He does have a point, however, Bruce.

      You're a semi-celebrity. This may be due to your skill or your political/software opinions, or other reasons - I can't recall the basis of your celebrity at the moment. But that doesn't matter. The point is, I don't doubt that you get by, to some degree, on name alone. Not everyone can be an A-list; there simply isn't enough social room for that many people to do the same thing.

      What does matter is that the software economy could not thrive solely on open source. If people had to produce code - small people who do back office work and what have you - and then rely on installation, support, and various other charges, they couldn't make enough to live. They'd have to leverage some combination of charging extravagant amounts for their services, producing a horrible product (which nobody would use, defeating the point of charging for support), or figuring out a way to lock people in through some other method. The reality is that people these days have no moral hang-ups about copying software if they can get away with it and don't need support, for the most part, and for small to medium sized businesses, chances are they can get by without your paid-for support.

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
  12. Duh! by martin-boundary · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That's the whole point of the GPL. It's there to simulate the "no copyright" world within the existing copyright system. Go read some Stallman.

    1. Re:Duh! by martin-boundary · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I think you can't see the forest for the trees. Of course the GPL is a technical document which exists within the conceptual framework of the copyright laws. But it's not there to enforce copyright, it's actually there to create a downstream channel where copyright is effectively nullified in practice. As long as you stay within the GPL channel, none of the copyright restrictions which always exist otherwise apply to the channel (if you try to leave the channel you run into difficulties however).

      The Public Domain is the closest simulation of 'the no copyright world' that we have. BSD and MIT licenses are close, and GPL is way later in the line.
      No it's not, because the public domain doesn't nullify the effect of copyright within the channel. With the BSD or MIT licenses, anybody can create their own copyright from existing code simply by saying so. I can take a BSD piece of code, slap my own copyright license on top of it (keeping theirs), and presto now the downstream channel has any copyright restrictions I care to put in.

      Would we be better off without copyrights? I doubt it. Plagiarism would run rampant for at least a while, and create utter chaos. Even once it settled down, it'd still be a horrible world for inventors. Reform is definitely necessary, but outright abolition is craziness. I've said before that 5 years is about right. If you can't make your money back in 5 years, the idea is so complex that nobody can COPY your idea in that time, either. That still gives you the lead on them.
      That's all political ranting. Some people like control, others believe that it's better to not have control. Copyrights were invented in Europe as a form of censorship, to protect the monarchies and the professional guilds. It was never intended to promote progress as such. Also, I think you're confusing copyright and patents in your last remark. Patents are intended to protect commercial investment, copyrights were intended to prevent people from copying documents so that 1) they had to buy material from the printers guilds instead of making their own and 2) the government could stop people from distributing controversial writings.
    2. Re:Duh! by martin-boundary · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Huh? Without copyright laws, there's no _need_ for the GPL or the BSD license.

      Without copyright, the world works like pretty much like the GPL intends, and the BSDL is redundant since it grants nothing that isn't already allowed, whereas there's no "intellectual property" that can conceivably be subverted downstream.

      It's the fact that the GPL gives the same result whether copyright laws exist or not that makes it such a solid foundation for software freedom (modulo minor bugs).

    3. Re:Duh! by martin-boundary · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A world without copyright also means that you cannot add clauses like the redistribution clause in GPL.
      Who cares? A world without copyright doesn't need redistribution clauses, because redistribution happens whenever people want to.

      People who create software are not required by law to publish the source code. So instead of proprietary software that we cannot access the source, we have non-proprietary software... that we cannot access the source.
      Now that's bullshit. People who publish their source code do so because they want to, not because it's the law. And by the way, the law doesn't say you have to publish your source code, and neither does a license such as the GPL. The GPL says if you want to redistribute your work and that work contains someone else's GPL code, then you have to "pay" for that code by publishing the source. But you can always decide to not publish, and not distribute either.

      And furthermore, GPL cannot exist because there is no law to protect it.
      Who cares? The GPL is not needed if the law doesn't exist.
  13. Wait by The+Bungi · · Score: 3, Informative
    I thought the author was going to make the mistake of saying that without copyright the GPL would be useless, but he actually makes a good point. I think the problem with licenses like the GPL and the Creative Commons are all about sticking it to The Man and a sort of social statement to the effect that IP ownership laws are broken, but they rely on an imagined legal and social framework that simply does not exist yet - and probably never will, though that's just my opinion. The efectiveness of these licenses (which overwhelmingly deal with distribution rather than use) wobbles on top of the very foundation they are trying to destroy. And none of them have addressed just what exactly is going to happen after they manage to topple it down.

    I'm not a big fan of the GPL, but I don't think public domain or a BSD-type deal is going to work either. But for everything I've ever read from Stallman and friends, I don't really think they have it down, either. It's as if they are sitting there hoping something will happen that will validate their position and everything will be kumbaya and honky dory. What that is they have no idea.

    Stallman can rewrite his license until the cows come home, but without some real change in the legal area it won't really make much difference. And piling restrictions up on top of the GPL can only go so far. Not his fault - that's just reality.

    And that's just for software... wait 'til you get into music and images and whatnot. The Creative Commons are in the same bind.

  14. What about limited copyright? by Antony-Kyre · · Score: 3, Insightful

    For the purpose of software only, what about limiting copyright for a period of no more than seven years? Allow a company to milk the product for all it is worth, then allow the intellectual property to be public domain. Maybe seven years is too short. Perhaps ten years is better.

    How many of us use Windows 98 anymore still? How many think it should become public domain next year?

  15. Copyright has one purpose by mangu · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Copyright was meant to give an incentive to creators while guaranteeing the creation would become public domain at some date.


    Because of that, pure binary data that has no meaning for a human being should have no copyright protection, only creations that a human can understand. No copyrights for binary executable files or data that has been copy protected or encrypted in any form, only for source code or data such as video or music that is published in a format that is open and unencumbered by any form of copy protection or secrecy.


    Otherwise, how can the creation ever come into the public domain? How will one be able to read those DVDs when (and if!!!) their copyright ever expires? What's the point of granting a copyright for something that has never been published, such as the source code of commercial software?


    If you use copy protection in any form, either by encryption or by a trade secret, then you are able to protect your own intellectual property, you don't need the protection that the state grants you in the form of patents and copyrights.

    1. Re:Copyright has one purpose by tomstdenis · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Mmm so many naive questions and ideas.

      Of course binaries should be copyrighted. I mean we were copyrighting movies long before computers existed and they're not written text. Binaries are of value to customers and therefore should be protected from rampant copying without rights. Otherwise, what's the incentive to write software? Sure you can switch the business model around, but how many people would honestly pre-order software which they've never seen before? Video games being the exception. I know I wouldn't spend $10K on a Synopsis license without first knowing they have a product that's been tested and used in the field.

      All copyrighted things eventually become public domain. I disagree with the studios trying to extend the time of copyrights since many historical recordings should be freely viewed for educational purposes.

      As for the source code of commercial software, the copyright is owned by the company, not the employees. So that gives companies legal recourse against employees who steal code. Often, customers are privy to portions of the software too [especially when you develop end user libraries], etc, etc.

      As for the DRM comment. I think DRM should be illegal as it violates fair use. I think they're two separate issues. Sure they should have copyright protection, but they should also adhere to the fair use doctrines.

      Tom

      --
      Someday, I'll have a real sig.
  16. No duh by tomstdenis · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The FSF and OSS movements were NEVER about abolishing copyright. They were about abolishing vendor-lockin and proprietary messes [re: file formats for instance].

    GPL was always a copyright license, in fact, ALL licenses are copyright driven. The only terms which are not is the public domain which cannot, by definition, have a copyright applied to it.

    Anyone who thinks OSS is about abolishing copyright doesn't know what they are talking about.

    Tom

    --
    Someday, I'll have a real sig.
  17. Right.... by bky1701 · · Score: 3, Informative

    This is kind of like saying that if you are against socialism you should be against unions, or if you are for the death penalties for murder you should be for it for assault as well.

    Just because you support the GPL as a good fix in the current climate does not mean you approve of the current climate. BSD fails for many projects because a company will walk in, grab the code, edit it a little to add proprietary components, sell it and hurt the development of the free project. See wine.

    While the GPL isn't ideal, it defeats the "I am going to take your code, make a small change and call it mine" that wouldn't exist if no copyright existed in the first place. If copyright didn't exist, decompiling and DRM cracks would quickly negate any attempts to restrict use of code/programs.

    Take music for example. Some guy makes a background track under the GPL; people use it in their GPL songs or pay (for the development of more free background tracks) to use it in non-free songs. Then take one who puts it under something BSD-ish. The RIAA comes in, sticks Brittney Spears on top of it, makes millions of $$$ and goes around suing people that didn't pay them for what they only edited.

    Not to say that's likely, but it's a good example. If all open projects used the BSD, it's more likely than not MS/Apple would have just taken the best, stuck it in a proprietary package and sold it, making it so open projects could never get ahead or even catch up. Hell Apple already did this, with BSD itself none the less. How many times do people on slashdot alone say that they used to use Linux/BSD until OS X came around that had all the best of open software, except the fact that it was truly open?

    So far as I care, the only reason I use the GPL and not BSD is because I don't want someone else having a full copyright on something using what I created. That's not why I created it.

  18. The problem with copyright... by mehgul · · Score: 5, Insightful

    is that I can't buy a certain book published in 1900, because nobody's printing it anymore. But I can't legally copy it from the library or download it from Google books, because the author died in 1956, and therefore it won't fall into the public domain before 2026. That's the problem with copyright, not its existence.

    1. Re:The problem with copyright... by tomstdenis · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The owner of the rights could have released it under a free license, or gave it to the public domain.

      Get angry at the authors/publishers for abusing copyright terms. Not the law.

      Tom

      --
      Someday, I'll have a real sig.
    2. Re:The problem with copyright... by frogstar_robot · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The law continually gets more and more unreasonable and is pretty much abuse-by-default at this point. Mickey Mouse Preservation Act anyone? But you are right. Getting angry at the law is stupid but getting VERY angry at the tools that were greased into passing laws written for them by some lobbyist isn't.

    3. Re:The problem with copyright... by Dirtside · · Score: 5, Informative

      In this case you're wrong; anything published before 1923 is now in the public domain, regardless of when the author died. Source: Cornell

      --
      "Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
  19. exactly - straw man argument by Baldur_of_Asgard · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I've kept up with this issue for years, and I can't think of anyone who wants to abolish copyright outright.

    Ensure Fair Use? Sure.

    Restrict copyright to a reasonable 20 or 30 years (even though 5 years would probably be sufficient for most purposes)? Sure.

    Abolish it entirely? Well, it probably wouldn't hurt as much as some people think it would, but it wouldn't be especially useful either, as long as Fair Use is allowed and it expires after a reasonable 20 or 30 years.

    1. Re:exactly - straw man argument by Moflamby-2042 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I've kept up with this issue for years, and I can't think of anyone who wants to abolish copyright outright.

      Allow me to be the first to discuss this underrepresented side with you then!

      Part of the intent of copyright law is to allow a content producer control over how the information they create is distributed. This is done so profit isn't "lost", and to prevent plagiarism, and in the case of GPL (article topic) to keep information open (among other things). But consider if those problems that were once solved by copyright could be solved by something else that additionally doesn't have to restrict information sharing to accomplish them. Surely having all of the benefits with none of the detriments is the best case scenario!

      The benefits are immediate, fair use of information extends to cover entire works (full novels, movies, news articles, journals, tv shows, etc.) and they could be sharable, commonly accessible and searchable. There could be a totally legal Google on steroids that contains the body of all known information produced by humanity. Things that hinder information distribution, DRM, DMCA, ... fall into disuse since their benefit is lost.

      Now the methods to accomplish this are many and varied. Freely shared information for example can be done via a buffet-like information access system. If a chunk of federal taxes pays for information, and the people (citizens, people specializing in various fields, reputation networks, etc) can still decide which information content producers should get more profits than others, then capitalism influences are still at work. In this method the information is still treated as information and not some limited "product" by limiting the actions of everybody that comes in contact with it. The content producers are paid, people can share it all the want, there can be a great online system to automate much of this. In my mind if such a system could be worked out without the people balking at the prices for the buffet then it would easily trump any system built on artificial restrictions to information.

  20. In other words: by cgenman · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If you're a libertarian, you can't be for government reform.
    If you're a green-peace activist, you can't drive to rallys.
    If you're a vegetarian, you can't eat yogurt.

    Now to be fair, the article has points that aren't drowned in sensationalism. Like, for example, how non-copyrighted works could be taken away and used by corporations. Which, in a copyright-free environment, would be perfectly OK.

    The opening "joke" is key to understanding the logic. Either you'd sleep with someone for money OR you wouldn't, price is irrelevant to whether you're a whore or not. Similarly, either you'd never use copyright for anything OR you would, context be damned. So Open Source advocates who see OS as the only way to make something work under the current system are tarred with the same impractical black-and-white brush as a woman who would sleep with someone for enough money to guarantee a college education and financial security for her children.

    Utter lack of taste or tact aside, this is just one philosopher shouting that a different philosopher should change their symbols, with no grounding in utility or practicality.

  21. This is just typical FUD BS by zappepcs · · Score: 2, Informative

    at least in my opinion. Remember, my opinion is worth what you paid for it.

    Nobody is against copyright per se. What people are against is how copyright is used to damage the principle for which it was founded. Artists should have copyright to their work. Distribution companies should not. If you write some really nifty software you should have copyrights to it, not a patent unless it seems to revolutionize the software industry or some part of it.

    What people (/. in general) are against is using that copyright authority to run roughshod over the public with it. Nobody really wants musicians to give their art away for free. What we see today is a backlash on the business model of the RIAA and their member companies. I don't think that there are many people that aren't willing to pay a modest/reasonable price for a CD. They do however want to be able to use that CD and its content where ever they want to, including loaning it to a friend, reselling it, or making backup copies so they don't have to purchase it multiple times. These issues have nothing to do with copyright and everything to do with how the **AA (and consequently the government) abuse copyright law to line their own pockets.

    The people who write OSS software deserve the copyrights to that, and I often contribute to those projects that I feel I use and enjoy. Hell, I even once bought a copy of winzip. As far as patents go, even the USPTO/courts are starting to realize that the patent situation is totally out of control, and harming business interests as well as damaging the public good that it was meant to foster. Notice that recent rulings may invalidate the patents that Verizon holds that were used to nearly drive Vonage out of business. That is exactly the opposite of what they were meant to do.

    To say that the F/OSS community in general doesn't like copyright or patents is absurd. What they don't like (and I'm taking liberties in speaking for them) is how they are used to drive unjust revenues at the expense of the public and the original content producers. iTMS is evidence that people will pay for content if it is usable, though I have some questions about how ultimately useful iTunes DRM'ed music actually is.

    If patents and copyrights were applied in a logical and fair manner, producing the productivity and benefits they are supposed to, nobody on /. would have much of a problem. This truly is a case of the people speaking with one mind, even if there are people who can't figure out what is being said.

  22. GPL != Open source by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Yes, GPL does use copyright law to do its heavy lifting, and the removal of copyright would break GPL. For anti-copyright/pro-GPL people this is not necessarily inconsistent as it is somewhat like legal Jujitsu - using the enemies strength to defeat themselves.

    However there are other forms of open source software too, many of which do not rely on copyright in any shape or form.

    Ultimately, open source software is a philosophy and changing the legal tools will not change too much. The GPL is also just a tool and even if the GPL was to be ruled invalid (or was invalidated by the removal of copyright laws) not much would change. When the Shroud of Turin was shown to be fake the nuns didn't commit mass suicide; similarly open source software will continue, with or without copyright, GPL or whatever icons.

    --
    Engineering is the art of compromise.
  23. -1 flamebait for the submission by Vasco+Bardo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    As everybody has already commented, this article is based on fundamentally flawed logic on so many levels that it is difficult to enumerate, so I'll stick to some important points.
    1) You can oppose copyright and support open-source at the same time. In fact, if you do oppose copyright, you're only viable strategy IS to support open-source, while copyright is THE LAW and stuff.
    2) You can also support a concept while knowing that it is unimplementable. You can find several examples in History books.
    3) "members of the anti-copyright crowd cite the GPL (GNU Public License) as an alternative to copyright" is not an example of irony but of a practical stop-gap solution.
    4) The "look at what happens if the GPL is unenforceable." is a bizarre glimpse into a strange world that conveniently ignores a bunch of nasty truths, all in all pretty well debunked on other comments, although I find it most revealing that the "world without GPL", does have DRM! The "dreamworld" turns out to be more like a "strawworld" .
    My personal opinion is that copyright has a place, and therefore should not be abolished, in a *perfect world*. However, due to the fact that the world is what it is, I would be perfectly happy with that bloated-and-abused-out-of-proportion-sorry-excuse- for-a copyright law getting abolished. So you see, I actually support and not support the same thing at the same time, and I have not disappeared in a puff of logic.

    *puff*

  24. Well by obeythefist · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Most people aren't trying to desperately abolish copyright. Copyright as it stands must be removed and replaced with, say, the original intent for copyright, which is a reasonably short (20 years?) monopoly on an intellectual property to allow and encourage people to think up new ideas, and be assured of a degree of income from that.

    Copyright should never persist beyond 20 years since date of copyright, even if the creator dies during this period (for the purpose of the estate of the copyright holder, I am thinking of the children after all).

    Just think of everything that has been devised 20 years ago and earlier. A lot of rich content could be in the public domain. Imagine the innovation that could take place with people creating derivative works!

    --
    I am government man, come from the government. The government has sent me. -- G.I.R.
  25. RTFM by dircha · · Score: 5, Informative

    Looks like another college sophomore just discovered the GPL.

    Welcome, sir. To start, why don't you Read the Fine Manual?

    http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

    The FSF is an organization committed to the advancement of Free Software. The FSF contends that proprietary (non-Free) software development and distribution is unethical and should cease because it fails to satisfy the 4 essential freedoms of software users.

    Free software is software that satisfies the 4 essential freedoms of users of software. These freedoms are completely independent of Copyright's existence or non-existence. The definition of Free Software makes no mention of copyright.

    Absent the voluntary or involuntary elimination of proprietary software, the Free Software Foundation generally encourages the use of Copyleft. You seem to be confused about the difference between Free Software and Copyleft. Free Software is software that satisfies the 4 essential freedoms of software users. Copyleft, on the other hand, is a licensing strategy employed wherin existing Copyright law is leveraged to further the proliferation of Free Software. There is much non-Copylefted Free Software.

    You also seem to confuse Open Source with Free Software or Copyleft. These are all quite different things.

    Once again, I refer you to the Fine manual:

    http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-for-fr eedom.html

    Having said all this, please consider taking a few minutes to inform yourself in the future before making wild generalizations about people and organizations you know nothing about. And congrats on completing sophomore year!

  26. Causality problem by kocsonya · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Regardless whether you agree with copyright or not, the argument that copyright is good because without it there wouldn't be a GPL is simply wrong. The GPL was born to fight closed source. Closed source was protected by copyright. RMS et al had the great idea of using the copyright law to fight its effect, they used the law-guaranteed restrictive power of copyright to guarantee that the right of copying a GPL-ed work can not be limited.

    If there was no copyright there would not be a need for the GPL because there would not be a restriction on copying, modifying and redistributing the source. The GPL is a counter-measure and as such its existence is dependent on that of the measure it counters. If you agree with a counter-measure it is a logical fallacy to say that the original measure is good because without it we couldn't fight against it...

    The article goes into scenarios where Big Bad Megacorp steals your code and distributes DRM protected binaries because there's no copyright. Well, first of all the 'R' in DRM would not be there if there was no copyright. They had no legal basis of using any measure to stop you to copy the program. They can use technical measures, but if you defeat them, they're out of luck.

    The Big Bad Megacorp would need a different business model to rip you off. I bet they'd find a way. It wouldn't be based on their exclusive right to copy a work, that's all. The current content provider industry business model uses copyright as the basis of their revenue. They would sink and some other industry would pop up that uses some other aspect to make money. Of course the copyright lobby is scared about *their* income going down and it's no consolation for them that some other businesses would became filthy rich if copyright was abolished, so they fight to protect and extend copyright as much as possible.

    The GPL fights back at least in the software segment of the copyright business. But the GPL is only good because it undoes the restrictions that the copyright places on you (by ingeniously using the very law that protects the copyright industry's content) to provide you the freedom the industry wants to deny. Without copyright there wouldn't be GPL because there would not be a need for it.

  27. Even more? by Peaker · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Even more secretive than "you cannot touch it, reverse-engineer it, and if you ever see it you're NDA'd to hell"? :-)

    I don't think you can be more protective of source code than they are today.

    1. Re:Even more? by farnsworth · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I don't think you can be more protective of source code than they are today.

      A lot of code is only loosely gaurded, because there are legal ways of protecting it. You can easily disassemble a lot of the .net api, or (when java was closed) a lot of the java api. But you can't really use it, because it would be obvious and illegal (or in violation of an agreement).

      If MS and Sun had to be secretive by obfuscating their api or code, we'd be worse off because debugging and stack traces would be much less useful.

      Not all code is inherently secret or sensitive, some of it just so-called IP, and a lot of it is currently not very secretive.

      Obviously if you're talking about Photoshop or proprietary authentication schemes, that's a different story.

      --

      There aint no pancake so thin it doesn't have two sides.

  28. Societies evolve. by jd · · Score: 2, Interesting
    So far, in modern society, it has been that the "adaptation" of secrecy/superiority gives an evolutionary advantage over those who share. To conclude from this that this must always be the case, or that humans are "naturally" like that, is as much a fallacy as to declare the opposite. The societies that have the most of the preferred adaptation will naturally do the best and there should be nothing surprising about it.

    If you created an environment in which secrecy/superiority did NOT give an advantage, but sharing and collaborating did, then those would become the dominant traits and we would be sitting here discussing how these were the "natural" way to be. In societies dominated by "trial-by-combat" ideologies and might-makes-right, you see neither secrecy nor collaboration, but you do get a most diverse selection of warlords, strongmen and hangers-on.

    There are societies on Earth where they haven't even invented numbers and have no concept of counting beyond none-few-lots. Nor are those societies easily capable of learning numbers. It is not merely that they have never come across them, the entire part of the brain dealing with logic has developed to process other information instead. Yes, the brain really is that flexible in the way it develops. Virtually nothing is hard-coded in at birth. How we are, what we do - these are all programmed in as you grow. Don't like the program? Then teach something different to the next generation. They're not confined to the limitations of those who lived before.

    Ok, so it is clear from all of that that I believe that we could easily(!) mould society in whatever image we feel like. Ok, maybe not easily, but we could do it. It is possible. What is "human" is ultimately defined by us, we are not limited by that definition. The next question would then be "SHOULD we develop a society without selfishness, secrecy, one-upmanship, etc?"

    This is not a trivial question. We have no evidence, on the level of entire modern societies, that this would be socially stable. It would be doable, but what happens next? Has society evolved the selfish traits because of the demands of growth, or are the selfish traits vestigial remnants of a long-decayed, long-surpassed requirement? Is copyright closer to the brain of society or its appendix? This is important - you wouldn't want to lobotomize humanity, but if overeager Intellectual Property has become a serious case of appendicitis, then to not remove it could be lethal.

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  29. These members of... by jumperboy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...the anti-rain crowd cite the umbrella as an alternative to getting wet, without any sense of the ironic fact that umbrellas can't exist without rain. They're proposing a solution while simultaneously complaining about the weather. While using an umbrella is less restrictive than staying indoors, it must be held at the proper angle in order to offer any protection. It is a way to keep dry. But without rain, umbrellas would never be opened.

  30. GPL is not freedom. It is restriction. by rick_campbell · · Score: 2, Insightful

    As the parent article points out. GPL is about restricting what people can do with software. ``Oh, but only the bad people that want to bad things'' is a Richard Stallman whine. Do you want it free? Then let it be free. That means without restrictions. Without the restrictions that I want. Without the restrictions that you want. Without the restriction that Richard Stallman has blessed.

    Freedom is more free than restriction. How difficult is that?!?!

    Freedom also works. When you make something free, someone will do something with it that you will not like. Others will do things that are great. Trust freedom. Let your software be free using Public Domain and don't buy into the bulsh*t mealy mouthedness that is the GPL.

  31. Re:Without copyright, the GPL would not be needed! by Fred+Ferrigno · · Score: 2, Interesting

    And equally, you could reverse engineer their modified product and implement the changes in the original version. Effectively, if you steal something from the public domain, the public domain has the right to steal it back.

    I think the Stallman ideal is a society where everyone voluntarily follows the tenets of the GPL without being forced to. Without copyright and with the unrestrained ability to reverse engineer released products, the effect is mostly the same.

  32. Re:GPL is not freedom. It is restriction. by aussie_a · · Score: 2, Insightful

    As the parent article points out. GPL is about restricting what people can do with software.
    Really? A large part of the GPL is restricting how <B>closed source</B> applications can use GPL'd content. Abolishing copyright law would mean that those restrictions are superfluous and so a large part of what the GPL restricts would no longer exist. While the other restrictions would also have to go, you don't have to be for the entire GPL to be for the GPL.

  33. Wrong! by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 2, Interesting
    GPL does more than work against copyrights. It also works against trade secrets (which BSDL allows). You cannot use code under GPL with trade secret code. Doing away with copyright would not force the trade secret code into the pulic domain.

    GPL would have no effect if there was no copyright. It would just become meaningless.

    --
    Engineering is the art of compromise.
  34. The 1909 copyright act was fine by voss · · Score: 2, Insightful

    28 years plus a 28 year extension, and you actually have to file for a copyright and put copyright notices on the work.
    If this law were still in place everything before 1951 would be in the public domain. Imagine a world where you could download
    all your old 1930s and 40s films online. In the year 2016 if the 1909 copyright act were still in place, everyone could be trading tv series
    from the 1950s.

      The fact that most people dont realized between 1790 and 1976 only 1 extension had been granted from 14 to 28 years.

    The question the copyright lawyers of 1976-2006 have to explain is how all these extensions encouraged the promotion of
    arts and sciences. How does it encourage the creation of new works to grant extensions to estates and corporations?

    1. Re:The 1909 copyright act was fine by Rakishi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      and you actually have to file for a copyright and put copyright notices on the work. That is of course a horrid system, just imagine if every time you added a new fix to your GPL program you had to pay a $20 fee and file paperwork. Of course large companies would have of course loved this as they'd have even less competition as a result.
  35. Re:GPL is not freedom. It is restriction. by statusbar · · Score: 2, Informative

    Sorry for the confusion. here is the original story, where the problem with public domain appears.

    --jeffk++

    --
    ipv6 is my vpn
  36. Copyright by Z34107 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Copyright simply screws everybody who didn't think of it first. It's nothing but a holdover from 19th century industrialists who wish to control everything.

    Noooo, sorry, we were looking for patent. PATENTS let you screw over everyone who didn't think of it first. (For 20 years, at least - then everyone gets to use the technology you described publicly and in great detail on your patent application.)

    Copyrights are necessary and important, moreso for the layman than the Evil Corporation(TM). The classical example is "You write a song and someone performed it and makes millions off of your work." Copyrights are what make that illegal, and what make the GPL and other "copyleft" schemes possible.

    You might be tempted to say that without coypyright, the GPL wouldn't be necessary - everyone could use everything because there'd be no licenses of any kind to stop you. Let me knock down a straw-man for a minute and point out that the GPL and other F/OSS licenses do more than allow public-domain-style copying. The GPL, for example, requries someone who uses GPL-licensed code to release his code under the GPL, also.

    Copyright laws require $big-evil-19th-century-industrialist-man to release the source code of his $program if his program uses GPL'd code. Without copyrights, he is free to take F/OSS and use them in his own $program, without giving the source code back to the community.

    It's why we still burn petroleum and use lame, kludgy x86 processors while better existing technology rots on the shelf waiting for a higher price

    Did somebody "copyright" (or are you still talking about "patents"?) the dark matter reactor, or the Magic Battery, or something? We use petroleum because it's a cheap (yes, it's still cheap relative to other fuels), efficient, and easily obtained fuel.

    We use 8086 clones because of the insane amount of software produced for that architecture. An insane amount of software was produced for that architecture because Microsoft licensed their OS to Tandy and the like (something Apple wouldn't do), which brought cheap computing to the masses.

    Better technology doesn't "wait for a higher price." If it's not worth buying, it's obviously that hot. Consumers wait for lower prices as technology improves.

    Yes, I'm sure there are "better" processor architectures out there - and they're being used where the differences are actually worth the cost. Servers use all sorts of interesting procs and arrangements, where a faster server is worth dealing with the idiosyncrasies and higher costs of a more exotic chip. But, I'm sorry to say that your $359 Dell machine is not going to see a I've written machine language for x86, Z80, and 68K derivatives, and the x86 isn't all that bad - and with compilers and programming languages, how kludgey the underlying architecture is doesn't matter as long as it runs efficiently enough. Our Intel and AMD chips run fast enough, and they're cheap. The DEC Alpha was expensive, had complicated instruction set, and provided no advantages over the x86 for programmers or desktop users - so it's used on many-CPU servers and processor farms.

    You managed to post to slashdot despite using an x86 machine, didn't you? I'm happy you suffered through the ordeal. The DEC Alpha "rotting on the shelf" will not help you one bit unless you start writing and posting a billion posts every second. The Itanium-series chips succeeded in the marketplace because they play nice with existing software, are cheaper, and provide the same benefits.

    I'd love to see some specific examples of "better existing technology rotting on the shelf" due to patents or "19th century industrials" or whatnot.

    (Score:0, Flamebait) There ya go! Send in the drones [stlyrics.com]... to fight for what they think is theirs...even when it's not. Stamp out the rabble rouser and his

    --
    DATABASE WOW WOW
  37. His point is erroneous by FreeUser · · Score: 2, Interesting

    What does matter is that the software economy could not thrive solely on open source. If people had to produce code - small people who do back office work and what have you - and then rely on installation, support, and various other charges, they couldn't make enough to live.

    That isn't the case at all. It isn't just "celebs" like Bruce earn well, or generate wealth, from free software--a surprisingly huge number of unknown people (such as myself) do very well from free software. Why? Because free software generates a tremendous amount of wealth and opportunity unrelated to revenue streams reliant on software sales.

    The mistake you (and the post you defend) make is to assume a zero-sum scenario dependent on software sales to generate wealth, when in point of fact the production of useful items (be it software or not) is a positive-sum activity that creates value greater than the sum of its parts, the vast majority of which is not directly related to the actual retail sale of the item. In situations where there is no physical scarcity (software), retail sales is entirely decoupled from these secondary, tertiary, and subsequent levels of wealth created (obviously, in the case of physical scarcity the sale is required for the item to exist, even though it is usually a vanishingly small percentage of the resulting wealth generated).

    A purely open source world wouldn't have a Bill Gates (big loss), but will (and does) have dozens, perhaps hundreds, of millionaire entrepreneurs offering support, turn-key package solutions, custom installation, maintenance, support, administration, and customisation. And that's just the primary impact, secondary impacts include wealth generated by trading firms, banks, shops, and other businesses who make use of free software and hire local talent to tailor solutions to their needs, or simply install and support third-party turn-key solutions (in addition to the wealth created by the savings in licensing fees, and the savings in businesses not finding themselves beholden to orphaned software, forced to upgrade against their own best interests by vendors pulling support, etc.).

    The only ones who lose in a free software/open source economy vs. a proprietary, closed-source economy are the Bill Gates of the world. Even the cadre of programmers who think they'll lose out because the business approach of Apple, Microsoft, or Oracle is all they know are unlikely to lose out at all, provided they are willing to learn new products and adjust their assumptions about how software generates wealth, and how demand for their talents and skills fit into such an economy.

    --
    The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
  38. Strawman by Eivind · · Score: 2, Insightful

    So, he is arguing against a position that I've never heard anyone holding.

    These members of the anti-copyright crowd cite the GPL (GNU Public License) as an alternative to copyright without any sense of the ironic fact that the GPL can't exist without copyright.

    Starting with RMS himself, most people *either* say copyrigth is fine -- GPL is our prefered copyrigth-notice OR they say: copyrigth is fundamentally a bad idea, but aslong as we've got it, we've got no choice but to make the best of it, GPL is our attempt at this.

    The biggest group I know are somewhere in between; They accept copyrigth, but consider life+100 years completely ridicolous. Copyrigths on software should probably expire in a decade. My prefered state of affairs would be no DMCA or similar law, 5 year copyrigth on software, and as much of that software as possible under the GPL. (yeah, this would mean you could take 6-year-old GPL-software and put it in a closed product. Fine with me !)

    It's sorta like the MANY people who say that software-patents are BAD, but aslong as we do have them, it migth be worthwhile to gather up an Open Source defencive patent-pool.

    Who *are* these people he argues against ? Do they even exist ?

  39. Unintentional copying? by tepples · · Score: 2, Informative

    IP (which covers copyrights AND patents, so patents are not irrelevant. They are every bit as much a part of the picture as copyright.) The statutes in the United States do not define "intellectual property", probably because copyrights, patents, trademarks, and trade secrets are more different than similar. If you want to make an argument about copyrights and patents, you need to make it once for copyrights and once for patents because any analogy between copyrights and patents is bound to be leaky.

    Copyright was created out of the exact same reasoning 297 years ago as it is used to today, to protect an established industry. By law, the publishing industry trade association (at the time called Stationers Guild) owned all copyrights in apparent perpetuity until the so-called Statute of Anne was enacted. The Statute of Anne allowed authors to retain their copyrights and license them to publishers. The apparent regression from the Statute of Anne to a state more like that of the old Stationers Guild is caused by two things:
    • Copyright term extensions have been extended by an order of magnitude from the 14-year term established by the Statute of Anne.
    • In many industries, the standard of production is so high that it takes dozens of people to create a work. Therefore, most works in these industries fall under the "work made for hire" rule, where the publisher is deemed the author.

    And I restate the only legitimate claim in ALL of this is that of authorship. Those who plagiarize are the only ones that should be looked after. When I write a song, how can I tell whether I am the rightful author or I am unintentionally plagiarizing an existing copyrighted work? As seen in Bright Tunes Music v. Harrisongs Music, 420 F. Supp. 177 (SDNY 1976), the damages for even unintentional infringement can be high enough to bankrupt an indie artist. "My Sweet Lord" on Wikipedia gives more background.