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Randomized Maps in Team Fortress 2 Explained
Given the amount of time that gamers have been playing the original Team Fortress, it's no wonder that Valve has designed the upcoming Team Fortress 2 with longevity in mind. One aspect of that design process is map layout: a randomization algorithm will reconfigure the map every time a game is launched. The result will be a multiplayer game requiring much more than simple map memorization and sniper rifle spawn camping. The post on Computer and Videogames offers a video featuring project lead Robin Walker describing the complicated process of making every random map work well. "As for how the dynamic maps work in practice, that was hard to judge. The match we played on Hydro, the first map to use this special game mode, was enormous fun. But as extensive as our playtest was, they didn't let us play on the map for three years, and that's the kind of heavy use under which this system should flourish. What we did notice is that this is not just a Battlefield type system with some control points 'locked'. When a point is not in play, routes to that section of the map are physically blocked off, so the physical shape of the map is different for every combination of points. That forces you to revise your mental picture of the map, and see it as fresh again."
That's been a long time in coming. Halo 3 multi-player developers take note...
Deja Moo: The distinct feeling that you've heard this bull before.
I never understood why they had specific places where the player respawned. While you'd want to ensure that you didn't respawn someone right above a hole, it makes more sense to just respawn the player in a random location. Except in CTF where the player should always be spawned at their base.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
Am I the only one that hates randomly generated maps? I know the concept is becoming popular, and I certainly don't like campers any more than the next guy, but I find it really just not fun to play on a map that constantly changes.
Haiku for you!
Is it just me, (and no, I didn't RTFA) but does the brief summary seem to indicate they are doing basically the same thing that racing games do to reuse a track (but with a little randomness instead of being "fixed"). For example, in the NFS series, when you go around a track during level 1, there is a concrete wall that blocks of a portion of a track. Then, in level 2, you get the same location, but the concrete wall is moved so that you can travel down that piece of the track.
Still cool. But not as much memorization as they imply.....
Layne
Imagine that, playing a game for fun instead of as a "sport". What is the world coming to?
Map randomization helps reduce multiplayer FPS from a legitimate competitive sport to just another amusement.
I disagree. Map randomization makes scouting useful. Without it, memorization of the map and various points on it is the key to victory, as you have pointed out. By randomizing the map, though, the game becomes more about analyzing the terrain situation and working out the best strategy for it in real time. One skill (rote memorization) is replaced with another (analytical thinking under pressure).
That said, I would like to see (one of these days) an FPS designed from the ground up as a competitive sport, with no extraneous "amusements." More Super Bowl, less Blood Bowl. Just to see what it looks like.
exactly! Too many people see changes to their beloved FPS games as something bad for competition. They are so used to play 1 way that they don't want to try a new way. I wonder if those people are even having fun anymore.. Every time they get kill they need to break something because of the frustration. (Like a mouse or a keyboard)
Dynamic maps make the game smarter. You can no longer play a map endlessly till you have it so memorized you can do it in your sleep.
This adds another aspect to playing the game. You know what you have to do, but now you also need to explore the map and find the weapons, find the best choke points all while the other team is doing the same thing. And you have to do this every single time.
Team communication is going to be even more important now. Your team will have to be dynamic and adaptable to not only the enemy, but to the terrain as well.
As far as I'm concerned, eliminating the blind rush to see who can get the super weapon/power up first is a good thing. Making players think more is not making the game dumber. People who don't like to think, who don't like new challenges every time they enter the game, won't like it.
I stopped playing FPS' because I was bored with the maps. People played the same maps over and over and over and over. It was always a mad rush to the same known locations. While that can be fun too, after a while I need some variety.
"The avalanch has already started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote." -Kosh
I hate systems that handicap success. They also tend to lead to no team winning ever, which is even less fun than getting stomped by a stacked team. If one team works together better, has better players, or is just plain lucky they deserve to win. Arbitrarily bolstering a weaker opponent provides goes against the very nature of competition.
Map randomization helps reduce multiplayer FPS from a legitimate competitive sport to just another amusement.
I disagree: It adds a new feature to "map control", and that's "reconnaissance." If you don't know what the map looks like up front, you have to determine what it looks like, and then you can attempt control just like in any other map.
A randomized map still has chokepoints, item spawns, and enemy spawns. Figure them out before the other guy does.
-F
Playing a dynamic and possibly unpredictable map takes far more skill than playing de_dust for seven years non-stop.
Console FPS games are designed for consoles.
They're added because the games are played with gamepads, which are not as good as mice. It's not a sinister conspiracy againts pro-players.
You make it sound so amazing and difficult, when in fact it's completely mundane. It doesn't take long to memorize a map from top to bottom, and visualizing it is not an issue when you've played it for several years.
Your argument seems to boil down to the fact that you want your FPS games to be rigid, predictable systems where everything can be calculated and measured for optimal efficiency and nothing unexpected ever occurs. God forbid that the game could place you in a situation where you are not exactly sure what will happen next. Can't have that.
Honestly, I don't give a fuck about your e-penis e-"sports." I, like most people, play FPS games for my own amusement.
Map memorization is what people are currently used to. Does it make a game smarter? No. Does it make it more fun? For some people it undoubtedly does. For me it only means that after a while I become bored with it.
You're right about one thing. Psychology would change. Instead of running straight to the choke point you know about, you have to find a choke point and then wonder if maybe your opponent may have found a different way in. Every time through it's a whole new game.
When I state I don't play anymore because people only ever want to play on the same maps, I'm basically stating that I'm bored with it. I know where the power-ups are. I know where the choke points are. The only thrill left at that point is if my opponent is actually better than me. When I stopped playing I was frequently accused of using an aim-bot. I never did. I was just good.
I would also say that tennis is boring for pretty much the same reason. The field is same every match, the only excitement comes from an opponent who is challenging.
A FPS where the map was different each and every match? Now here's a new challenge every time. Even if your opponent isn't as good as you, you also have to play against the terrain. In my opinion it ups the skill required to play effectively. It also means that pure twitch alone doesn't guarantee a win. A team that can identify and use terrain quickly and effectively can beat a team that can't.
"The avalanch has already started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote." -Kosh
The memorization is the prerequisite for playing the *real* game
No, you're just being closed mined about it. What the game is simply changes. As for the skills you mentioned above, they all still play in to a random map:
1. Twitch
It's an FPS, this will always be part of the game. If anything, the randomness is going to emphasize this further. It takes little in the way of quick reaction to fire a rocket at a known location when you see the enemy. On the other hand, if you don't know where that enemy is going to come from, it's going to take a lot of speed and accuracy to get the first shot off.
2. Map control
Again, not gone at all. You will still need to control the map, you'll just have to learn how to do it on the fly. Yes, this means that you won't have the well developed strategies which come about from well known maps. But ignoring your terrain will still be fatal. What it does mean is that you will have to be more adaptable. You will have to find and control choke points, not just rush them. Also, the sniping camper will be in for a lot more trouble when someone discovers an easy way to him.
3. Enemy prediction
This one will be diminished a bit. You won't know what the enemy is doing, because there won't be several well hashed out tactics that each side uses every time. you will, instead, have to figure this out each time. There will still be base assumptions, it's still an FPS, and there will still be certain objectives (assuming non-deathmatch play). This seems like a good thing to me. I've spent too many hours playing the exact same map, with both sides using the exact same tactic, the result coming out as much to luck as anything else.
4. Self unpredictability
It's a random map, this should be a playground of unpredictability.
The problem isn't the idea, it's just that you are stuck in the "memorize and own the map" mentality. The game will be different, no doubt, but just discarding it out of hand because it's not what you are used to is just dumb.
Necessity is the mother of invention.
Laziness is the father.