Europe's Galileo Program In Serious Trouble

elrous0 writes "Various news outlets are reporting that Europe's Galileo program is facing a serious financial and technical crisis and may be permanently stalled. The European program, designed to be a superior answer to the US's GPS — and, more critically, not controlled by the US — has faced numerous hurdles since its inception. To date the Galileo program has succeeded in launching only one of its 30 planned satellites and has been beset by delays and cost overruns. Apparently, squabbling between the eight companies in the consortium behind the project is responsible for many of the problems. The project is now threatened with an EU takeover. But some doubt that even an infusion of EU capital can save the flagging program."

Comments

I'm not surprised...

[jawtheshark]

I'm a EU citizen, and I applauded the Galileo program. Especially, because at least we would gain a bit independence to the US. (I was for a European Army too, provided that all national armied be disbanded... That idea was highly critisized by the US too). Anyway, this is typical EU technology stuff. Good idea in the beginning, bureaucracy kicks in, budgets get busted, scientists get frustrated and leave for the greener pastures in the US (or elsewhere), etc... etc... etc...

Eurofighter... same kind of mess. The only thing the EU is good at is creating papers and using my tax money. Okay, that and technically they are responsible for keeping peace (within EU members states) for over 50 years. A fucking long time in Europes history.... Well, it's a high price for peace, but it's the only reason I'm not against the EU.

Re:I'm not surprised...

[JordanL]

There would be a lot of nice things about the EU fully federalizing... for the US and for Europe.

Particularly that countries like Germany and France would be force to give up their bullying of the rest of continent. The Euro would be a lot stronger if Germany and France didn't keep breaking the deficit rules that they force everyone else to abide by.

Re:I'm not surprised...

[DJCacophony]

Yeah, because we all know that no European nations have ever had any civil wars, or invaded other countries for their benefit. Ever.

Re:I'm not surprised...

[Colin Smith]

Huh? The EU started out as, and effectively remains, an economic organization. How did they "keep the peace". What on earth do you think wars are about? They're about getting hold of resources that other countries hold. The EEC created a large free trade area which allows the money and resources to flow freely. There has been no need for war.

Sooner or later, European countries will have to start footing their defense bill. Actually no, they won't.

They'll be able to do what the US is doing right now, as the Euro replaces the US Dollar as the world reserve currency they'll be able to print Euros without producing inflation within the EU. The inflation will be externalised. Essentially, the rest of the world will finance the EU defence budget.

Europe's been at peace for "a fucking long time", but 50 years isn't enouigh to change huma nature, and the nature of humans is to make war. But of course, the war will be against whoever holds the resources which are needed within the EU. Like the massive oil fields in Saudi and Iraq...

Re:I'm not surprised...

[JordanL]

Why does everyone have to make any statement on economics a pissing match? I never said anything about the dollar. The Euro has performed weakly compared to its goals and backing, and it is primarily due to the deficits which France and Germany have been racking up, which rival those of the US for the only types of values that matter to economists: % GDP.

A weak dollar is actually a good way to fix outsourcing, as US goods become cheaper... in fact its the only way that the market by itself really has to fix outsourcing and trade deficits.

As for the Yuan... it has performed where it has because the Chinese government has been more or less subsidizing its own currency, which I suppose a more communist government is capable of. No matter how good the opportunity, China can't sustain a 9% growth rate forever, and when they slow down, their currency will have to come crashing to the floor, or we'll be mopping up Chinese bonds to fund their debt.

The global economy is a revolving door, and no one is spared, no matter how high and mighty they think they are. The state of the US dollar testifies to that.

Re:I'm not surprised...

[Citizen of Earth]

Europe's been at peace for "a fucking long time", but 50 years isn't enouigh to change huma nature, and the nature of humans is to make war.

No, it isn't. Europe has been at peace and will continue to be at peace because of international trade. War is caused by two factors: (1) a psychopath manages to become dictator, or (2) you can realize a significant material gain from invading your neighbour. We must be eternally vigilant against (1) (and strong democratic institutions are a good defense), but for (2), there is no sense in invading your neighbour for its resources if your neighbours are willing to harvest what you want and deliver it to your door for about the same price as if you had done it yourself.

Re:I'm not surprised...

[wfberg]

Probably not a prime purpose, though.

The preambles of the Treaty of Paris:

CONSIDERING that world peace may be safeguarded only by creative efforts equal to the dangers which menace it;

CONVINCED that the contribution which an organized and vital Europe can bring to civilization is indispensable to the maintenance of peaceful relations;

CONSCIOUS of the fact that Europe can be built only by concrete actions which create a real solidarity and by the establishment of common bases for economic development;

DESIROUS of assisting through the expansion of their basic production in raising the standard of living and in furthering the works of peace;

RESOLVED to substitute for historic rivalries a fusion of their essential interests; to establish, by creating an economic community, the foundation of a broad and independent community among peoples long divided by bloody conflicts; and to lay the bases of institutions capable of giving direction to their future common destiny;

HAVE DECIDED to create a European Coal and Steel Community[..]

Yeah, probably just a footnote in history.

Re:I'm not surprised...

[Grishnakh]

No, there's not going to be open warfare between EU nations. However, I do believe we're going to see some massive social upheavals and violence because of all the Muslim immigrants in Europe. They're already rioting in France and Sweden, assassinating people in the Netherlands, murdering bus drivers in Belgium, and it's just going to get worse.

Re:I'm not surprised...

[falcon5768]

You dont know much about American politics beyond what your news stations tell you do you? Thats the only way you could ever make a statement like that and think it was in any way true with our political situation.

We agreed to go to war in Afghanistan for legitimate reasons that where much graver than anything your own countries did to start WWI. Iraq is a sore subject and was only agreed to because people lied about intel. We are now coming to the agreement on how to best pull our troops out of the war, we are fighting, but I strongly expect a agreement to be hammered out before July. On top of this more bills pass through our government in a month, than the EU has passed in their existence, many with some manner of debate and disagreement over them. The difference is majority wins in the US. If 55% of our elected officials voted yes, and our president doesnt veto, then its yes even if you dont like it. Only when it comes to being a Veto (which would be the case of the recent war spending bill which was passed pretty much as a FU to the presedent to make him veto a bill giving money to our troops than it was a expectation the moron would actually suck it up and admit he fucked up royally) does it come down to a large majority vote to bypass the president and make it law. While the recent bill didnt, bills in the past have.

Re:I'm not surprised...

[Applekid]

I really don't know why the above was marked troll. And I walk in the minefield by trying to answer even in a neutral manner. So be it.

(Disclaimer: I am a US Citizen)

There's a lot of resentment over the power the US has held over the heads of other nations in the world. Gunboat negotiations and all.

US corporations spread globalism with an emphasis on profits over the benefit of humanity. The government repeatedly chooses not to reign them in because the politicians are lobbied by money instead of doing what's right for the nation.

Unfair trade agreements, a favor of capitalism over socialism, and other inequities just helps keep people angry. We try to police the world and are bad neighbors to the world community at the same time.

That said, (minefield time) I do agree that there's far more anti-American feelings than warranted. If Portugal (just for a random example) found itself in our position it would do the exact same thing. It's a Game Theory thing. A lot of old world countries did all sorts of horrible things within their spheres of influence. It just so happens that the rise of US power coincided with the time when one nation COULD have global reach.

But...
Until we get voter turnout rates that aren't pathetic compared to American Idol,
Until we have a culture that honors education instead of 50 Cent,
Until we can be colorblind in all racist matters,
Until we can humble ourselves as a member of the world instead of masters of it
We will continue to be hated.

That's ok, I was unpopular in high school, too. ;)

Re:I'm not surprised...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, because we all know that no European nations have ever had any civil wars, or invaded other countries for their benefit. Ever. Most of them don't pretend to be innocent of any of these charges nowadays. European history is full of civil wars, predatory wars of conquest, ethnic cleansing and the associated atrocities and denying that history would be pretty pointless. It usually takes a large group of especially clueless morons such as the Nazis, Fascists or Balkan ultra nationalists to achieve a critical mass of stupidity that is great enough to generate a wave of such denial. The USA just as prone to deluding it self that every war it starts for it's own selfish ends is really a humanitarian police actions aimed at spreading democracy and preventing the proliferation of (imaginary) weapons of mass destruction.

Re:I'm not surprised...

[kuldan]

I guess the parent meant you must be using BSD,'cause linux is european stuff :)

Re:I'm not surprised...

[germanbirdman]

I also like the fact that I can work in every other European country. In fact if you have lived in another European country for more than a certain amount of time (2 years?) You can also vote in that country in many places now - not all elections yet, but we're moving in that direction.

Apart from the same money, Europeans also now share the same driving license.

Regarding commonality: There's more than the Euro, but not much: we now also have the same driving license. But I can't really think of much else at the moment...

The problem with democracy in Europe is that people use the EU elections to voice their frustrations and vote all the radical parties to show their dissatisfaction with the currently ruling administration in their own member state because the parliament doesn't have much power anyway.. So all kinds of really radical parties get voted in which people would never dream of voting into their own parliaments.

People actually say that the EU parliament has a much greater voice now than it did a decade ago - I also agree with other postings that the only way to make it more democratic is to give it enough powers so that people actually start caring. Right now, people use the EU elections for nothing but to voice their frustrations at their own goverment. This includes I believe even the referendums for the constitution: Their government is for it? People vote against - their government is against it? The people would have voted for it.

I believe that once the economic growth has gone on for a while and people are not fearing losing their jobs anymore as was the case in most countries that voted against the election, maybe we have a chance to get the constitution through. Without it, the EU will become a group of states that cannot do anything because all decisions have to be unanimous.

I still think of myself as a European though rather than a German - that being mainly because I grew up in the UK, lived in Germany for most of my life, spent quite some years in the USA where I really saw that there was a difference between European (not just English/German) mentality. In my work, half of the people I work with in the office are Dutch/other half is German.

People in Europe are brought up to be a lot more critical about their government, in the US for quite some time after 9/11 it was unheard of to criticize the president - US news just wasn't worth watching because it was all so one sided. Thankfully that has gotten a lot better again (I left the US two months ago). In the US, the goverment says something, the people believe it with almost no questions asked. Not so here.
What's not so good here is that people here rely too much on the government - in the US people rely more on themselves. If you're out of a job or are earning too little money, Americans get another job - here in Europe people ask for unemployment pay.
US and gun laws - after the shootings at that school people saying that if everybody had a gun, it would not have been as bad... No thanks... But I have to admit US gun laws are similar to having a law to impose a speed limit on the Autobahn in Germany- no government would ever be elected or reelected if they did that. It is just something cultural.
In the US it seems that the government wants to only have a few educated people and a lot of not so educated people - Universities there are just so prohibitively expensive. This is one of the main reasons I came back actually because my gf wants to study. 500 Euros a semester, that's a joke comparing it to US prices.
Then, we have more taxes here, but you get a lot for them - you get good roads (I am always amazed when I come from the US how good they are here), you get the university education.

Getting back to the Galileo program - there needs to be an EU government which have something to say. And they should press through the Galileo system. It is vital. Right now, I fear that it is not strong enough yet and it will stay at the one 1 satellite. I hope I am wrong.

Re:I'm not surprised...

[Moridineas]

I didn't talk about the US contributions during WW2 (which are also far smaller than Americans like to think). Your revisionism is peeping through again. Conservatively speaking, the US lost 200,000 people in Europe. My grandfather fought in Europe. I think it's entirely fair to say that WW2 would not have ended as it did had the US not entered the European front. But I guess that doesn't really matter anymore.. The Hitler/Stalin reference was referring to who would most likely had controlled most of Europe had things turned out differently..

The rise of the US as a superpower had no impact on peace in Europe, unless you count conflict with Russia as part of a European conflict. That sounds to me like you're saying the economic power of the US had no impact on WW2. Had no impact on rebuilding post-war Europe. Had no impact on the formation of NATO. Had no impact on stopping the spread of Russia (which you say doesn't count for some reason--I think the former East Germans might disagree with you..). Had no part on supporting Europe militarily when the European militaries were depleted and worn out. Had no part in the keeping of the peace..

In addition, you may not remember it, but it was less than 20 years ago that the Soviet Union included parts of Western Europe--there wasn't even a unified Germany. This is hard to fathom now, but not 20 years ago a large portion of the EU was much less accessible than it is now. Certainly during the last 50 years there were times when western Europe's relations with the Soviets was .. less than good. Berlin WAS a split city until 17 years ago! I don't know about you, but that's an amazingly hard image to reconcile with the images of Europe today. Anyway, my point is merely that the US played a large role in Europe from WW2 for many years. The price tag was in the hundreds of thousands of lives, and billions of dollars. Hell, US superpower had nothing to do with European peace? Heard anything about the Balkans? The US had to send troops there recently (nato)... so I guess, we're STILL helping out. Actually that's an interesting point--I have a number of Bosnian friends--I lived in an area where a very large number of Bosnian refugees were settled--and I've RARELY met anyone as pro-American and pro-American military. Especially for Europeans (those from the Balkans DO count as Europeans, right?). One of my friends lived in Sarajevo through most of the war..has some amazing stories and pictures.. pretty horrifying.

I know anti-Americanism is the fashionable thing now, but come on, I just can't imagine why you would try to minimize hundreds of thousands of dead.. I just don't know what the motivation for that is.

(incidentally, I'm not disputing the fact that the precursor France, Germany, Benelux, Italy union was intended to peace, though I would dispute that it was the biggest factor, or even a big one. Something about millions and millions of people dying tends to kinda suck the desire to fight from people.. it helps when there are soldiers around keeping the peace too !!)

Well, just use GLONASS

[Cyberax]

Well, you can always use http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GLONASS

Oh wait...

Re:Sounds Familiar

[rlp]

For those not old enough to remember, it still sounds very familiar.

Re:Piggyback US

[Dogtanian]

The US GPS system is available worldwide, and with the increased amount of definition now I wonder why they want to invest so much money creating their own. Perhaps a joint US / Europe project to utilize one system, would be cost efficient. Because the US system is under the control of the US. In reality, "friendship" between countries does not exist; countries have allies, not friends.

Beneath the PR gloss the US government has always acted in its own interest to a large extent (don't take that as a criticism, any government in its position would the same). However, in recent years this has become significantly more pronounced with the hawkish arrogance of Bush and co. In particular, Tony Blair's conceit that he has any real influence over the Bush administration is laughable, and has been for some time now. Bush will only do what Blair wants if he was going to do it anyway; out of the PR highlight, U.S. government staff have admitted as much.

I'm sure you'll excuse me if I say that I don't trust the Bush-led government one fucking bit. When push came to shove, if they were forced to choose, they'd act in their own self-interest. Even if the US Democrats won the next election, there's no guarantee that they'd be significantly better, or how long it would be before the Bush-types regain power.

As I said, I personally think it's undesirable to rely on the US-controlled system. You can take this as an anti-U.S. rant or not; what it comes down to IMHO is that we need a system under our own control, not something that can be yanked from under our feet if it proves inconvenient to our allies.

Oh, don't be dense

[Colin Smith]

This is what happens when you dive into a program like this motivated by little more than spite. Frankly I expected better from someone with a 4 digit ID.

Anyway, it has fuck all to do with spite and everything to do with military independence. It's geopolitics. Whether you like it or not, the EU is gradually unifying into what will become a direct competitor to the US for world resources. Where there are trade rivalries today we will have wars tomorrow, and to conduct a war against a country who controls vital information systems like GPS would be stupidest folly.

Oh, you don't think the EU would ever go to war against the US? Just wait till the oil and water start running out.

Re:Oh, don't be dense

[jo7hs2]

Oh please. China, India, and Russia will be the immediate geopolitical threats to both the US and the EU. I find it unlikely that the US and the EU (should it exist in some form in 25-50 years) will come to blows with those other threats to fend off. The simple truth is, both sides of the Atlantic have too much in common, culturally, intellectually, and even in political systemic functions, to find themselves enemies. Both Europe and North America have significant water resources, so I doubt that will be the issue that divides us. Hopefully, 50 years from now, we will have weaned ourselves off of oil enough that it too will not be an major problem. That's assuming the EU doesn't simply collapse, which is what my money is on.

Why there's nobody fighting:

[Kadin2048]

Well, actually, I think the EU is really just the Germans and the French finally figuring out how to do jointly what they've been trying unsuccessfully to do independently for the last 300-odd years -- conquer the rest of Europe.

Seriously: they have a waiting list to get in. How slick is that? You've got countries falling over themselves, remaking themselves in your image, in order to be part of your empire. Not too shabby.

Re:Why there's nobody fighting:

[ThousandStars]

Well, actually, I think the EU is really just the Germans and the French finally figuring out how to do jointly what they've been trying unsuccessfully to do independently for the last 300-odd years -- conquer the rest of Europe.

Are Germany and France conquering the rest of Europe, or is the rest of Europe conquering Germany and France? I ask because I read -- chiefly in The Economist and The New York Times, granted -- about the angst in both countries over the rising tide of English as a language and the difficulty both have had with economic growth over the last 20 years. The language aspect is particularly important: the best way to kill or submerge a culture is to destroy its language. Look at what the English did to the Welsh, Scottish, and Irish; to most of the world, people who are from all four geographic region would seem one and the same. Not many people know Welsh, and few writers work with it any longer. The same happened to American Indian cultures.

It seems like the rest of Europe is changing the cultures of those two countries moreso than the other way around.

Re:Read about the founding of the EU

[NeutronCowboy]

"If you've been to Europe recently and noticed how citizens see themselves as European first and nationals second, you will see they've done very well on their goals"

What the hell are you smoking??? Go to France, and be astounded at the Frenchness of the French. Go to Germany, and be astounded at their Germanness. Go to Sweden.... you get the point. Not only are all the countries resolutely individual, they are proud to be something specific. Finally, a couple of countries voted against the EU constitution, some never really joined (they are only part of the EU market), and you'll realize that Europe is a long way from become a nation.

Whoever modded this informative hasn't been to Europe.