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iPods and Pacemakers Don't Mix
fermion writes "The Register reports a study that indicates that iPods and pacemakers do not get along. While there do not appear to be any long term effects, iPods disrupt the operation of the pacemaker. It is noted that such effects have not previously been observed as iPods do seem to be popular with the pacemaker-wearing population."
I've already patented the iPacemaker add-on for the iPod!! w00t!
Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
Well what the hell is someone with a pacemaker doing jogging in the first place? It could kill them!
Despite them being by far the most popular portable digital player, why would this focus purely on the ipod? how can they possibly be doing this, and it not be a problem for other players?
Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
This study is prima facie complete BS. iPods emit less RF than pretty much anything else in the environment around you. They have to meet FCC Part 15 and other international standards, just like any other device.
If someone's pacemaker is acting up, it had better not be an iPod causing it, or that person had better move into a Faraday cage.
File this under "OMG cell phones kill bees!!!11!"
"It is noted that such effects have not previously been observed as iPods do seem to be popular with the pacemaker-wearing population." Is this a typo?
"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows." - Bob Dylan
This is actually quite startling. What exactly inside of the ipod is giving off interference that effects the pacemaker? Is it the hard disk? If so, there is most likely quite a few more devices that could cause disruption.
Clearly this is a covert terrorist attempt by toshiba against bush!!!! Toshiba KNEW bush would buy an ipod, and thats why they included the secret ray gun device emmitter in their hardrives!!
-toshiba killed my best friend
--I am an american
---I am an american
----I am an american
NewslilySocial News. No lolcats allowed.
FTA:
"Most pacemaker patients are not iPod users,"...
Shouldn't the summary read:
"...iPods do not seem to be popular with the pacemaker-wearing population."
Just an observation to clear things up, as I don't think my grandfather will ever rock out to an iPod.
In further investigation it was found this effect is present only in the new fifth generation iPods when the red light is on. Apple has denied plans for world domination by sending signals to iPods to control peoples minds. "Ridiculous", said an Apple spokesman "Our brain control waves are on a totally different wavelenth than the heart stopping killer waves" Inestigators have also come across reports of a single iPod mini going around turning off the waves
**Life is too short to be serious**
And why are you returning this product today sir ? Has it quit functioning properly ? Would you like to trade it in for a new one ?
Nah, it killed grandpa, I want my money back.
Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
so this is a valid study? a 17-year-old high school student tested 100 pacemaker-wearing subjects with only iPods (and no other MP3 devices)..... yeah...
...we are from the government - we are here to help...
Is the electromagnetic noise coming from the hard drive? Wouldn't many other devices, besides just iPods, cause the same kinds of problems?
:) causing problems with folks who have pacemakers. It would appear they should be concerned aout much more. I would think manufacturers of pacemakers have some responsibility to make their devices handle the everydy environment they work in. Do cell phones break pace makers? Those who have pacemakers just aren't able to avoid electronics.
I can understand microwaves and particle accelerators
as iPods do seem to be popular with the pacemaker-wearing population.
the ipod, no, but the zune is sure being aimed towards the fossil market, at least according to steve ballmer.
iPods obviously meet FCC regulations for RF emissions.
The real concern is why pacemakers are made so they are susceptible to such interference. What happens when a user is exposed to an intentional RF radiator, which would be expected to put out much more power, and consequently cause problems at much greater distance?
It should be obvious that more study must be done - at what frequencies are pacemakers most affected? Might an 802.11 device, for example, be even more disruptive?
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
They did try to do the same study with the Zune, but were unable to find anyone to participate
Between the falling angel and the rising ape
It's because the iPod has DRM.
(not only that; you should see how long it takes to copy a 17 megabyte file from an ipod to a pacemaker!)
how can they possibly be doing this, and it not be a problem for other players?
Well, for one thing, the touch-sensitive scroll-wheel is somewhat (though certainly not completely) unique. They use capacitive touch sensing. They utilize a low-voltage, low current AC voltage to measure the change in capacitance when you move your finger over the sensor. The googles say 102kHz is common.
My "second generation" nano produces a high-pitched noise whenever it's on- it's noticeable if you have it within 2 feet or so of your head. I'm pretty sure it is the inverter that generates the AC current, but if it's 120kHz, that shouldn't be possible, unless there's a resonant frequency in the audible range.
Maybe the sensor just happens to use a frequency that confuses pacemakers. Now that Apple is aware of the problem, they might do some testing and change it on future iPods.
Please help metamoderate.
stated in the article, or any reference to this issue that I can find. Can you provide a cite to back that up?
If it were true, the the title would be even more misleading, since it's not all iPods, but is all harddrives.
Of even more concern would be the danger posed by something as simple as refrigerator magnets. In a simple experiment, I could easily pick up paperclips with refrigerator magnets, but was completely unable to do so with a hard drive based iPod.
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
I'm an engineer who works for a pacemaker company, and from what I've understood on this hype, the iPod is just disrupting communication with the cardiologist's programming station. "The equipment to misread the heart's pacing" is misunderstood as the pacemaker missing the heart's pace, but I believe it much more likely to be the programming station missing the real time EKG stream to the programming station. With the exception of that lone device, I bet the rest of the pacemakers paced and performed as properly as they could with a noisy communication channel. The communication protocols for the devices I've worked on are often wrapped with many parity checks and CRCs. And yes, modern pacemakers are even run through lengthy tests of randomly hitting them with a multitude of communication errors to make sure these situations are covered.
So in short, this is just a poorly written and misleading article that is going to feed off the public's misunderstanding of technology.
heart-felt music....
(Captcha: "leaking")
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
I'm 31 and I've got a pacemaker (implanted when I was 17) and I have not experienced any problems when using my 5th generation iPod. I don't keep the iPod on top of my pacemaker, either, but I can't recall ever having a problem when using the iPod. I use lots of wireless devices as well (blackberry pearl, MS wireless keyboard, bluetooth headset, etc) and don't experience any problems. Again, as the manufacturers of the devices and the pacemakers recommend, I usually keep the devices a few inches from the pacer (and most often use the phone on the ear opposite the pacer implant location).
The study should include information about the pacer models and manufacture dates...perhaps these were very old units.
iPace! It keeps your heart a'goin, and pumps music directy to your brain, and is updated via 802.11n/Bluetooth/EDGE, and is compatible to synch with your iPhone!
Apple knows well about RF interferences, All theirs machine since the MacPlus freaks me about how many metal shield they put in it. The metal case of almost all iPod shield them self from outside. Every conductive casing will act as a faraday cages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage). Soo since a iPod Nano is 100% made of aluminum and every pacemaker are made of titanium (can't corrode and bio compatible) I really don't worry about and iPod. If pacemaker was so sensitive, we shall see a lot more incident from cell phone, Wi-Fi or electric razor.
RTFA you stupid dickhead. it WAS written by some 17 yo and all he tried was an ipod
Your ideas intrigue me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
and respond to an AC.
Assuming you actually are who you claim, how is this communications done? I would assume that it's done with inductive coupling. If so, what is the interference mechanism?
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
msuave: Yes, a pacemaker or defibrillator is essentially inside a faraday cage already. They are generally titanium or steel encased, and designed to resist most radiation fields that are encountered in everyday life. However, faraday cages are not perfect, and the pacemaker has to have leads come out to thread into the heart. Just as you can use your cellphone inside a metal plane (also a faraday cage), some degree of radiation will be seen by the pacemaker electronics. In general, these devices are programmed by placing a wand over the device which essentially communicates by RF to the internal device -- if it was a perfect cage, it couldn't even be reprogrammed except by physically accessing the device (e.g. minor surgery.)
AC: Agreed regarding the sensationalism. Our practice tells EVERY pacemaker and defib recipient a list of things they should and shouldn't do. We counsel patients to hold their cellphone in their RIGHT hand and only crunch it between their right shoulder and ear, as almost all pacemakers are implanted on the left side. In general microwaves are ok, and patients are given a letter and card for the airport, where they can be wanded. Quite clearly, if somebody puts another RF emitting device RIGHT ON TOP of the implant, it could cause some interference. No, this is not unique to ipods. Again, if you actually talk to grandpa, I'm sure he knows this, especially if he was implanted by us. :) This "research" is quite ridiculous.
Finally, agreed regarding the description of the findings -- if it is just interrupting transmission of data to the programmer, this is a lot less dangerous than scrambling the internal signal seen by the pacemaker. The pacemakers are designed to recognize noise, again for the expected interference as noted above, and can handle this using many filters (e.g. something at 60 Hz is probably NOT coming from your body.)
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Vetran slashdotter, ID #101.
Wait, UIDs are not in binary?
Slashdotter, ID #101. UIDs are in binary, right?
mr c
"Physics is like sex. Sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it." - R. Feynman
While there do not appear to be any long term effects, iPods disrupt the operation of the pacemaker.
I don't understand this sentence. Oh wait, this is slashdot.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Wow. Anonymity really brings out the worse of people, doesn't it? You should learn some manners, buddy.
:D
I read the article. I realize they only tested the iPods. But that wasn't the point of my post, and a cleverer person would have realized that. There is nothing intrinsically different about an iPod that other players or similar devices wouldn't also exhibit, particularly when you're talking about electromagnetic emissions. It's like saying, "Coke is bad for you, but I won't mention any other similar cola because I didn't have time to test them."
The article almost implies that you're better off with an alternative music player, when in reality, they would all have the same effect on the pacemakers. Are you starting to get the point now? Glad to hear it!
Pacemaker users should be wary of slot machines. How come there aren't epidemics of old folks keeling over in front of the slots in Vegas?
Zune: Hey, at least it won't kill your grand/parents!
I don't think iPods are supposed to go inside your chest cavity. I sometimes wear mine on an armband, but I've never tried incorporating it into my circulatory system. I can see how that would go wrong.
Time to drag out the old tinfoil vest.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
So iPods are going to kill all the honeybees...sweet!
Jesus Saves
Many devices are susceptible to EMI. I recently saw this while testing a hand-held UHF two-way radio. When I pressed the push-to-talk button in high-power mode (7 W output), it killed a computer that was about 6 feet away from the radio. The computer just made a funny noise and turned itself off.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
Sorry, but you seem to be unaware that the FCC has exactly zero to do with pacemakers.
Heck. Even ECGs (that are fully compliant to FDA/AAMI specs) can affect pacemakers (which are also completely compliant to any regulations), simply because there is no rule about things like what frequency a certain device may use to measure respiration (it's done by measuring the impedance across the chest at a certain frequency in the 10's of kHz range, using a few hundred nA of current). Pacemaker and ECG are using the same frequency ? You're in trouble.
Microsoft(r) (MSFT) announces that Zune(r) does not affect pacemakers. However the evidence up to this point is a bit sketchy because Microsoft(r) are still looking for the one pacemaker users who is actually licensed to use a Zune. Researchers feel confident that Zune(r) will not affect a pacemaker because it so far has not affected any PC running Windows(r) Vista(r)
Some guys love it when you "Squirt" your Zune.
...that pacemaker users will need tin-foil platemail?
I have been wearing my iPod flash for a necklace for some time - and and old tech buddie said that can't be good for your heart. I scoffed. After reading this article, I'm giving this a second thought. Anyone know just how much EMF or whatnot radiates off of a iPod?
Horns are really just a broken halo.
Now if my Dad asks for an iPod for Xmas i got the perfect excuse not to get him one! :D
hell, they should get a cut of the inheritance;-}
iPods and Pacemakers don't mix? Yeah right, I'm sure it will blend.
If girls liked guys that were interested in them for their brains, they'd date zombies.
Are pacemakers part 15 devices? If so they have to accept the interference.
RF shielding is a big deal. Just look at the nice Faraday cages used to enclosed MRI scanners. It has to be RF quiet because that is the actual imaging part of the system. The magnets just make things jump to higher energy levels. When they fall down they emit a signal detected with an RF scanner.
I would imagine there should be some form of RF/EM shielding on something so critical as a pacemaker.
The study only covered 100 patients. Many other devices may also interfere with pacemakers. More study is needed to determine overall effect.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Both Steve Jobs and Apple Pioneer Jef Raskin came down with pancreatic cancer. Jobs had enough $$$ to beat it, but Raskin wasn't so lucky
and I'll show you a man with an AM/FM pacemaker.
Or, in this case, a MP3-playing pacemaker.
If "disco" means "I learn" in Latin, does "discothèque" mean "I learn technology"?
I hear Steve Ballmer's uncle participates ;)
I will be calling me and asking me anything, but wait, the cellphone could do interference too as well as another mp3 player... Well, he will live in the pre-historic age again :)
ghostbar page.
Be still my heart!
sfsp
I heard the iPod was the music player to die for.
No wonder so much attention has been paid to George Bush's iPod - whenever Dick Cheney starts giving him lip in the oval office, he can just walk over nonchalantly, stand next to Dick, wait for him to pass out, and then continue the meeting.
I wonder if Bush has Sting's "Nothing Like the Sun" album on his iPod?
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
But the iPod is okay, right?