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Handling Interviews After Being a Fall Guy?
bheer asks: "Salon's Since You Asked column is carrying an interesting question right now — what do you say in interviews after getting fired as a fall guy at your last job? Cary Tennis, who writes the column, admits he may not be the best person for this sort of question. So I thought I'd ask others what they thought about this. Software developers are sometimes able to get away blaming the business requirements/analysis process, but anyone with any experience in this business probably has had nightmares about being the fall guy and may even have a strategy or two up their sleeve. How would deal with being in such a crummy position?"
what do you say in interviews after getting fired as a fall guy at your last job?
I dunno, writing a book seems to have worked out for George Tenet.
The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
Well, I'm not the kind to kiss and tell, but I've been seen with Farrah. I'm never seen with anything less than a nine, so fine.
I've been on fire with Sally Field, gone fast with a girl named Bo, but somehow they just don't end up as mine.
It's a death defyin' life I lead, I take my chances.
Best Windows Freeware
a) Don't bad-mouth the old company.
b) If they ask be vague but not misleading, tell them you had a disagreement with Management.
c) Always keep in mind that the old company can't tell them much (if anything) about why you left the company.
What is this? Ask Lee Majors?
This guy's the limit!
So, we're ripping our Ask Slashdot items directly from Salon.com now?
I don't know what else to say than ... "do your best" ... OK, get ALL the evidence in your favor...you have to black mail them.....I don't recommend it ..but...this is corporate...horseshit....I'm insane...don't listen to me...son't sue me...pleeeeese....yah! I can't spell either....
I prefer Flambe as apposed flamebait.
Just say this:
"While in my previous job I might have fallen from a tall building, or I might have rolled a brand new car. But it was because I was the unknown stuntman that made Redford such a star."
Leave it at that. And call Lee Majors for a reference.
my sig is an honor student
If you are the fall guy, presumably you will have had one or more positive reviews? If there are positive reviews and perhaps good references from other workers at said company, having a disagreement with the management about something (especially if your views on that disagreement were/are the industry standard practices) should not be a problem. Just be gentle/discrete when you explain it. Nobody wants to hire someone that talks badly about their employer(s).
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a) Yeah, I guess that could actually have happened.
b) You're so dense and arrogant that you still don't have the slightest idea why they fired you.
I mean, it sucks and I certainly feel sorry for you if a) is really true but I predict difficulties trying to convince anyone of that.
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
That's how things are done. It was just business. Or more accurately, "Projects you were working on failed, and you were the junior member. So you were let go."
Just try to explain the machinations of the world without being overly emotional, blaming your former colleagues, or talking bad about your former employer. Don't seem like somebody whose got a chip on their shoulder and the whole world's against them.
We all want our lives to be meaningful and make sense. We all want justice in the cosmic sense, rather than witnessing scapegoating. However, for most people, the workplace is not the place to find meaning or justice. In an interview, you have to pass yourself off as someone who isn't emotionally attached to their work. Someone who could be layed off without erasing the HR database. Someone who could fire other people and not lose sleep. Someone who just comes in reliably, gets their shit done, and doesn't engage in politics. Just do what you need to do to get through the interview, and don't worry about afterwards right now. The best way to find another job is to have a job in the first place.
Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
-- Pablo Picasso
I figured out years ago that if you talk shit about your old girlfriend to your new one, then your new one will wonder what you will say about her. Your new company probably doesn't want to hear any bitching.
If you were the fall guy then something obviously went wrong at your last company. Coming up with some *generalized* insight about the failures in *processes* @ the last company you worked for without attributing blame (use non-accusatory language) or personalizing the situation will let your potential employer see you as a bigger picture type candidate.
Use your experience @ your last company as a platform from which to inquire into practices at the new employer. You have a very real interest in not ending up in a situation like your prior one, and *quality* employers appreciate candidates with insightful and even difficult questions about company standards and practices.
Corporations use rebranding all the time. Rebrand 'fall guy' before you go much further in the process even when thinking things over inside your own head. How you approach the issue internally will subtley change the way other people approach the issue.
Regards.
I didn't get fired -- I had enough information that I knew my time was coming quickly. The boss had been reporting to the board that all of the company's failures were my fault. Plus, I caught the boss fixing the elections for board members (which resulted in the winner of that particular seat not being appointed).
I secretly reported the boss to the board while starting my job search. As several projects were coming to a close anyway, I used that as my major "talking point" for leaving: development on major projects is coming to an end and things will go into a "maintenance phase" for the forseeable future; I'm ready for a new challenge; I'll continue to assist my current employer as a contract employee until they are up to speed on things; etc.
With additional pressure on the boss because of a fixed election, more blame was heaped on me (not regarding the election, but still...), until I found my job posted on CareerBuilder with nary a mention of my performance or the boss' displeasure with me.
I began interviewing regularly and didn't lie. The fact is that when I told my former employer that I was moving on because of the perceived problems, I agreed to be available to assist with the transition. When I went into interviews, I kept things positive and mentioned that I might need some flex time in the first week or so of employment in the event that my former employer needed help. The fact that I was up front about things, while keeping the whole whistle-blower/fall-guy thing out of it made me more attractive to folks. In the end I had multiple job offers and was able to take my pick without having a single day of unemployment. And I got out before the former employer really made things bad for me.
I realize that an after-the-fact interview will be different, but it bears repeating that you should say the nicest things you can about your former employer no matter how you feel about them. Hell, I lied and said I was sorry to go, but by projecting that positive attitude I think it really helped me make a smoother transition and has gotten me in with a place that seems to genuinely care about its employees. *crossed fingers*
I just went through "Interview Training" and one thing the managers complained about is that they can not find any previous employers willing to give any kind of reference beyond name and dates of employment. It appears everyone is worried about lawsuits.
They stressed that letters of reference are somewhat valuable as a replacement, so make sure you snag some of those before you take the fall.
-no sigIt is better to leave when you see it coming, than wait for the disaster to happen and be blamed for it afterward.
Granted, it might be difficult, but usually, you have a few months before a problem turns into a reality. I have left jobs in the past because of unethical behavior on the employer's part, but believe me, it was for the better. Not only did I get a better paying job with better benefits, I no longer got that sinking feeling when management asked me to do what I felt was wrong.
The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
I tried the honesty route, and it backfired:
Well, not only did I not get the job, but it turns out that they record all the interviews to protect themselves legally. I lost all my money in child support and sexual harrassment payments to my secretary, and in 18 more years, when I get out, I'm going to know how to respond to that question.
Disclaimer: The above is fiction only. I am not a criminal.
Your ad here. Ask me how!
Q. Why did you leave USPS?
A. My contract was over.
Q. Why did you leave Nortel?
A. My contract was over.
Q. Why did you leave IBM?
A. It sucked.
-- www.globaltics.net
Political discussion for a new world
They'll already have made up their mind within the first 10 seconds of having seen you anyway so as long as you don't come across as a complete nut you'll be fine.
Oh, so kinda like dating?
Ignore anything I said above, I actually agree with everything you believe - mod accordingly.
I've been fired (or asked to leave) more than once in my career. The way that I've always handled it is to simply not lie, but I would strongly recommend not wearing a sign on your back that says "Hey, I was fired from my last job! Yay!", either. Usually when the question comes up, I simply say that I left because of a disagreement with the employer or something equally non-committal and non-antagonistic (to your old employer).
I've never gotten in a situation where I've had to flat out admit being fired.
Another thing to keep in mind, which has already been pointed out, is that legally, most companies won't admit anything other than employment. The last one I got walked from wouldn't say anything to prospective employers about me other than "He worked here from Aug 2001 to April of 2003."
They are scared of lawsuits, especially since they cannot verify who is asking, truly. For all they know, you have a friend in a company who is trolling. As unlikely as that may be, it generally works in your favor.
Part of my company now specialized in staffing and head-hunting. One of the many lessons I've learned about that is that generally (at least for the hundreds of positions I've seen filled in the last three years) prospective employers are far mor interested in references rather than previous employer statements. Which strikes me as odd, simply because I've never given a reference that I hadn't pre-qualified and generally only gave friends. The biggest complaint I've received on my references was that they "weren't high enough" in the org chart, which was from a Senior VP at Symantec, so take that with a grain of salt. Make a few manager/director/VP friends that you can count on, and references are a slam dunk. I've interviewed lots of people, been witness to hundreds, if not thousands of others, and I've yet to hear a bad reference call.
For the life of me I can't remember where I read it, although I think it was a link on careerbuilder.com, that talked about this subject, finding a new job after getting canned. One of the things that interested me the most was a statistic that around 70% of all firings have nothing to do with performance. (Disclaimer, I can't remember the exact figure, but it was around 70%, okay?). And that's my experience, as well. Both as a boss and as an employee. I've been fired for doing my job (2 times, when the employer was hoping that either the project I was working on would fail, or when my employer set me up to fail), but it has never been my ability. I've also fired people, but it was purely about non-ability issues (abusing company resources, etc.)
I think that my experience has been that when you can't manage your manager (work together with them, put up with them personally, etc.) its past time to get out. For better or worse, if your manager dislikes or hates you, or acts in ways you can't stomach, its time to polish off the resume and start again. The sooner the better.
Bill
If you have a long explanation when they think of that question, they'll simply hear crickets.
You need a sound bite. Something like:
Ya know it was a good project that I enjoyed working on. I got along well with the team members. But when the project failed, they needed to downsize project staff. I had stuck my neck out to try and make sure the project succeeded,
You changed a negative firing into a positive: "I work hard to make projects succeed." Now when they think, "Well they got fired at the last job;" their brain will respond..."They will stick their neck out to make our project succeed!"
-Todd
Put down the sig, and step away from the computer.
Your new employer has no idea why you left your last job. The last job should only be confirming employment dates for you anyway. You can get somebody to call and ask about you if you fear worse.
It sounds like you have every opportunity to be (mostly) honest. The previous company wouldn't provide the necessary training and resources for your projects to succeed, and they didn't know how to do project management (you weren't in a position to fix that) so you're looking for a new opportunity where you can accomplish goals with the support of management. There's nothing wrong with that.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
Comment removed based on user account deletion
References. References don't need to be your former boss. They can also be peers, customers, or vendors. Think about people who know that you've really done the things on your list of things you do well, and see if they will serve as a reference. A reference doesn't have to know everything about you, they just need to be able to back up and verify at least one story that you tell during the interview. When you provide your reference list, include a brief one-sentence summary of the story this reference can verify.
Take the high road. Point to what you do well, and leave it at that. Alternatively, if pressed, you can tell your prospective employer the truth, but try to stay positive. Let them know that you stayed up front and honest through your communications, and tried very hard to escalate things to management before it got out of hand, but they weren't in the mood to listen.
I was trained to interview and hire by a guy with 15+ years of experience. He taught me that questioning the reason for leaving a prior employer is one of the fastest ways to separate candidates.
The more detailed and impersonal explanations about shortcomings or roadblocks to advancement that existed in a previous workplace typically pointed to a better candidate. Why? Analysing frustrations or failures without integrating personal emotions exhibits political IQ... hugely important in mid to large size companies. Being able to provide detailed explanations about the causes of frustrations or failures demonstrates scope of vision... a massive indicator of an employee's ability to deal with compromise/problem solving in the workplace through an understanding of the pressures and demands that shape production across multiple interrelated divisions.
You might be amazed at the number of job candidates who look great on paper but boil their lack of advancement or success at a prior job down to interpersonal conflicts with management etc... I know I was amazed.
The more wholistic awareness a candidate displays in answering this question, the more secure a prospective employer can be in the candidate's ability to preserve and improve the corporate culture.
Regards.
This can bite you in one of two ways:
All this poor sod knows is that he didn't get an interview. But really, he is now never welcome to work at my wife's firm, and "the grapevine" now knows what he is doing, so he will probably have difficulties finding work elsewhere. It's a small world out there.
The correct strategy is to take a cold, hard assessment of what happened. Be objective and dispassionate. List out the mistakes you made and what you've learned from them and how you won't repeat them in the future. List out what you feel you did right as well.
Distill all that into a concise story. We're talking about 30 seconds to a minute. Be honest, but put a dispassionate spin on it and keep your sense of humor.
Recite it in front of a mirror a few times and then test it on a friend. Ask him if he'd honestly hire you after hearing that, or if not, why not.
Keep revising until you've got a story that is truthful, but paints you in the best possible light. In terms of learning from your mistakes, accepting your former employer's mistakes and realizing that it was just business, and keeping your confidence about you.
Everyone is human, and we all eff up from time to time. How you pick yourself back up again says volumes about your character. Honest self-assessment and attempts at self improvement are good. Lying, blame shifting, and deceiving are bad.
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
(I recently completed a project, well, about 99%, and the customer pulled the plug for reasons unrelated to the performance of my team - they ran out of money)
#1: If you're uncomfortable with lying - DON'T.
#2: If you were in charge; don't DENY that it was your fault. Take responsibility for what is your responsibility. Show that if mistakes were made, you have learned and moved on. It's better to show that you were in charge of a project, than to pretend you were a junior member. Taking responsibility for failures shows maturity.
#3: Don't take responsibility for things that were not your responsibility. Lots of people get put "in charge" of things; when, in reality, someone higher up in the chain can sandbag you.
#4: No project fails completely. Accentuate the positives. Highlight what you DID accomplish. Show that; despite project constraints, you came up with innovative approaches to solving issues. Be positive, and try not to make yourself look like a victim. Everyone in this industry for more than a year or two knows that projects fail from time to time. But a project is more than just "Failed" or "Succeeded". Whether you get paid may hinge on that dichotomy. But whether you did good work certainly does not.
#5: Unless you're just out of college, you've got other successes in your work history that you can talk about instead. Your last job is the most relevant. But it's not the ONLY relevant item.
Hope that helps.
I wasn't really made the scapegoat in my case. But it still sucks that I can't say that my project was a complete success, and got used, and worst of all, I have no use-case metrics to prove that my approach improved anything. But when I explained it in interviews, it was apparent that I was on the right track, and was just unlucky.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
As a rule, companies refer all questions about former employees to HR. HR, as a rule, will only confirm stated dates of employment, title, maybe salary. Why? Anything bad they say can be construed as slander, and since your new job is on the line, the damages could be significant if slander proves to have cost you a job. They've cut their ties to you, so there's no point to them saying anything bad; it doesn't benefit them.
:p
Some companies wlil say glowing things about someone they really liked who left by choice, and then say nothing about the others. The one negative catch phrase that has seemed to propagate is, "[Person X] is not eligible for employment" or "not eligible for re-hiring" or such, which translates into, "We wouldn't want them back", but is apparently "safe".
Also, again, firing black people isn't that easy. Anyone who's been a manager knows it can be a real bitch to get rid of an employee in any protected class - race, gender, or (in some states) sexual orientation. Firing a straight white guy is a piece of cake; any reason will do, because at-will employment means you can fire them for NO REASON. If you go to HR and tell them you want to fire the gay black woman in your group because she's been snorting coke at her desk, coming in all of 3 hours a week, and took a bat to your car when you asked her about her project, they'd probably ask you to put her on a Performance Improvement Plan for 6 weeks and issue warnings for every infraction before they'd even consider firing her.
That's a bit of an exaggeration, but it isn't a BIG exaggeration.
(Posting anon for should-be-obvious reasons)
Not quite the same situation, but I faced a similar dilemma when I got fired not too long ago. They said it was for violating a company policy; I say it was a minor verbal-warning-level infraction, and the real reason was I'd been interviewed on local TV as a "gay rights advocate" and the good-ole-boy management didn't want a known homo on staff. Answering the "why did you leave?" question in subsequent interviews was tricky, because neither version would endear me to your typical hiring manager.
So, my solution was to stop putting myself in the position of being asked. Instead I went back to school, and picked up an MBA. After that, a glance at the timeline on my resumé removed the question from their minds, and if they did ask, a simple (and factual) "I went back to school for my MBA" dismissed it. And the extra degree didn't hurt either.
Fallen software developers go homeless, fallen managers go into politics, isn't it?
There you are, staring at me again.
He was a programmer/DBA/general IT guy for a Dot-Bomb startup. He built the mission-critical website and DB backend for the company. My sister and he went on vacation for a week or so months after they were in production. He took a company cell, a company pager, and his own cell with him so they could contact him if something came up. While he was gone something went wrong. Rather than call him so he could work on the problem the owner's son decided to muck around in the DB to see if he could figure it out. He seriously fucked it up then. When my brother-in-law came back to work (I don't think they told him about the problem until he came back) they fired him. The blame was laid on his shoulders rather than the company or the idiot that management let work on the broken DB. Brilliance in action. They've since gone under. What a shame.