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Driver's License to be the Next Debit Card
prostoalex writes "Your US driver's license has a magnetic stripe with unique ID in it, and your debit card carries a magnetic stripe with account information on it, so why not link the two together and allow people to use their driver's licenses as debit cards? That's precisely what a young company National Payment Card is doing in select locations, according to Business Week: 'Gas-station owners are pleased with the program too. Because NPC processes the payment as an e-check with the Automated Clearing House (ACH), a network most commonly used for direct deposits, participating retailers bypass credit card companies such as Visa and Mastercard.'"
...your account is frozen. Brilliant!
"It's a reverse vampire...they....they crave the sun!"
It's not for me, but I can see where some people would like this. One less card to carry around and potentially lose.
Well it wont work everywhere, here in Massachusetts the magnetic strip was replaced with a digital barcode a few years ago.
Libertarian Leaning Political Discussion Forum.
So now someone can steal my identity and my credit in one card?
I would like to be the first to say this is a really bad idea.
Get a web developer
...without this mess.
1. Give out name and address to complete strangers who work cash registers
2. Get identity stolen
3. Profit (for identity thieves).
Well, at least it fills in that elusive second step.
As of today, driver's licenses and ID cards are state-specific. Layout, extra features (barcode, magnetic strip), anti-forgery techniques, etc are all decided on a state-by-state basis. If you move to a different state, you need to get a new license from that state within a certain amount of time (usually it's within a few weeks of establishing permanent residence). In order to roll out a nation-wide license-as-debit card program, either states will have to standardize on specific extra features like a magentic strip and what information is stored there, or licensing will have to be handled by the federal government.
As a believer in states' rights, this looks like nothing more than an end-run around opposition to a national ID program. If they can get people hooked on using their license as a debit card, nobody will object when the fed steps in to take control of licensing to make it "more efficient".
One early morning, back in the early days of debit cards, I inserted what I thought was my debit card into the ATM. It asked for, and accepted my PIN, gave me account options, then, after a short delay, said that there was no such account and returned my card to me. As I pulled the card out, I realized that I had inserted my Driver's License into the machine, instead of the debit card. I had always thought that the two should work together, as it appears that such interaction had been pre-built into the ATM software, even back then.
How about no.
Shall we enumerate some of the problems?
Suspended/surrendered license = no money
Hacked debit card = hacked license
numerous swipes = worn card + license. I'd rather not deal with the DMV any more than absolutely required.
What is the benefit for me? Nada.
I refuse to use debit cards at all (as opposed to an ATM card or a credit card), because they draw directly from your account and they don't require an independent piece of verification (like a PIN) to use.
But this? This is even worse. At least a debit card can be cancelled in the event it's stolen, even though by then it may be too late. How are you going to cancel your driver's license when the DMV is only open Monday through Friday 8-5?
It's even worse if it makes use of the RFID chip that's embedded in some driver's licenses these days.
No way in hell will I ever opt in for something like this.
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I don't know anyone with a "US" driver's license. I have a Virginia driver's license. Hopefully it will stay that way.
You haven't been paying attention, have you? The role of a driver's license to simply prove that someone has the requisite expertise to operate a motor vehicle are long gone. Now the federal Department of Homeland Security mandates what states put in the cards, and you'll be required to show your national ID whenever you fly or enter a federal building.
E pluribus unum
The key to successful reduction of identity theft is the ability for revokation NOT only by grantor (state) or clearinghouse (credit bureaus), but most importantly, the grantee (the end-users).
Without the end-user being able to revoke a stolen card, the whole system is worth squat, security-wise.
And none of that clear-text personalized info on the magstrip, thank you very much, NO!
Michigan does not use privately assigned numbers for our drivers license numbers. Our drivers license numbers are calculated using a method that's not secret or random or anything.
_ mi
We use a system that combines soundex codes with date of birth. You can find anyones michigan driver's license number if you know:
First name, Middle Name, Last name, Month of Birth, year of birth.
If you're from michigan, get out your driver's license and see for yourself.
http://www.highprogrammer.com/cgi-bin/uniqueid/dl
There are only a few times where it might be a few numbers off. If you happen to share a first name middle name last name month of birth and year of birth, then the last 3 numbers will be off by 1. Besides that, this works really well.
This is great for catching fake ID's. None of the fake ID's bother to calculate the right number. Most bouncers who police doors are familiar enough with the codes to flag fakes quite easily.
I see where this is going: National ID, financial account ... next is it medical data stored on same card?
Heck, this card will be TOO important! What if it is lost! Why, I can't be identified, buy or sell, get health care... you'd better just tattoo the damn number on my arm and forehead.
No, thanks.
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
As a proud citizen of Montana, I am pleased to report that our state told the federal government to "shove it". In the words of our governor, "Never, no, hell no".
I refuse to use debit cards at all (as opposed to an ATM card or a credit card), because they draw directly from your account and they don't require an independent piece of verification (like a PIN) to use.
Now that depends on the debit card, doesn't it?
There's nothing to prevent this company, or one like it, from requiring a PIN to transact business when you identify via driver's license.
At least a debit card can be cancelled in the event it's stolen, even though by then it may be too late. How are you going to cancel your driver's license when the DMV is only open Monday through Friday 8-5?
By calling the "card stolen" hotline of N.P.C. and telling them to disconnect your license from your bank account.
Your driver's license is just being used as a key to a database. It's another way to go from a piece of plastic in your pocket to your name and account number - after that it's E-checks on your account with the E-check processing company.
The only real issue I see with this (besides people reading personal data off the plastic) is if the state doesn't make some distinction in the data on the license between a lost/stolen one and the replacement. Without that, once you've had ONE license lost or stolen you can't turn such a service back on for your new driver's license without re-enabling it for the missing one. (Of course you can change the PIN - presuming a PIN is required to use the service.)
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
So when your license is suspended...your account is frozen. Brilliant!
Nope.
When your license is suspended it doesn't keep you from using it as ID. It just keeps you from driving legally.
All this system is doing is using your license as an ID to look up your account in the e-check processing service's database. This keeps on working until the service decides to stop accepting that particular license as ID. (Probably when it expires and/or is replaced with a new one.)
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Err... wouldn't that mean that you could pay a traffic fine immediately? Which translates to:
"Do you really want your state government having easy access to your bank account?"
"How fast will the state legislature pass a law requiring the immediate and direct payment of fines via the license/debit card?"
"A hold has been placed on your account for the amount of the fine. The hold will be removed if you are found innocent. Your court date is in 30 days."
Aside from the obvious increase in identity thefts risks, I realize that there is a person who thought this up, thinking that one 'all purpose card' would be cool.
I don't think debit cards and driver's licenses should be combined simply because you usually don't carry that many of such cards anyway. What most of us hate is - this problem is applied to women in particular - all the shopping cards people collect. These are the cards that need to be combined into one configurable card, so that people can have only three useful cards. One for shopping discounts, one driver's license and one debit card. But combining them is kind of pointless.
Also, other side effects include situations like not being able to give your husband/wife/daughter/son/xyz your debit card to use at the ATM machine, simply because it is too risky to lend someone a driver's license AND a debit card.
Full Tilt
Too bad when they required "machine readable" they didn't specify "magnetic". Wisconsin has the super complex bar-codes on the back.
Lets make our drivers licences Debit Cards
Hey lets make our drivers licences national ID Cards
Hey lets make everyone in the World have ID cards that can be used as money which makes a world currency
Hey we're too lazy to carry cards anymore, lets have a microchip imbedded in everyone.
God spoke to me.
This is far beyond any 1984 insanity.
Am I the only one that see's this as a way for Big Brother to have absolute, total power over your buying/spending abilities? The people that worried about bar codes and now RFID are probably shitty fuzzy spiders over this concept.
I'll refuse to accept this bullshit concept, period.
Cash is King.
(Some context: I founded a company that made credit card processing software for Linux (among others) more than ten years ago. My knowledge on the matter might be stale (as of about 2002), but as far as I know nothing about this has changed much.)
This is very bad.
When you use a credit card, you get fantastic levels of consumer protection. By law, you're liable for at most $50 of bad transactions on your credit card, and most of the major payment backbones (Visa, Mastercard, etc) have reduced that to $0 liability over the Internet. There's no burden to reporting the charges as bad - you report the charges and go on with your life and you get a bright shiny new card in the mail in a few days.
On the ACH network, it's very different - it's like you're writing checks (the ACH network is used to settle checks). In other words, you're limited to the laws protecting you from bad checks, which puts the burden on you to prove that the charges did not come from you. Recovery of the money can be a nightmare, which can only be mitigated by the policies of your bank. The law offers you very little protection. Some banks are very good about this, others won't lift a finger to help you unless it's required by law.
Debit cards are bad, but at least their widespread use have made banks familiar with the issues. This is much, much worse.
"It is our blasphemy which has made us great, and will sustain us, and which the gods secretly admire in us." - Zelazny
So when an officer stops you for speeding, does handing them your license constitute offering a bribe??
The university that I attended issued student IDs that were usable as ATM cards with a bank that the school had set up to do that with. It worked fine but that was with just one bank that they had worked out some deal with. Its probably more difficult to work it out for multiple banks and allowing fair and equal access to all banks.
Debit cards suck. If there's a fraudulent or otherwise disputed transaction, the other party has your money. Getting it back is a major pain in the ass. My friends have had issues where it's taken them months to get something resolved and, in the mean time (it bears repeating), they have your money. Credit cards companies are generally much easier to deal with - the money is still in your pocket, so the burden is on the merchant to prove the transaction is valid. If (like me) you want to avoid credit card debt, use American Express charge cards (green, gold, platinum, or black). These basically work kind of like a net-30 account for your purchases. AmEx has always been great to me when there's a problem with a charge.
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I wouldn't worry about credit cards when worrying about identity theft. What's much more difficult to track is loan applications made in your name,
You wouldn't worry about credit cards when it comes to id theft? Hell, it's easy and getting easier to get a credit card in someone else's name. And when they do, you don't get a bill from the credit card issuer unless whoever got it used your address. However it can and will come back to haunt you.
What's much more difficult to track is loan applications made in your name, because you have to actively retrieve (and usually pay for) your credit report. It's not mailed to you on a monthly basis.
Unless an id thief gets credit cards in your name.
How many cards are you carrying around, anyway? If you have more than two or three, you've got a problem with credit. What you need:
Not neccessarily. Your FICO Score, which partially determines your credit worthiness is in part determined by what your total credit limit and what your balance is, the more credit cards you have the higher your credit limit is.
You may think you need to because of credit limits, but you're better off using a single card with a higher limit (fewer rotating credit accounts allows for a higher limit on the ones you really need).
AH I see you brought up credit limits yourself. However just because you only have one or two credit cards instead a bunch it does not mean your credit limit will be the same, it's possible it will be lower with only two cards than with 4. What matters more is how much balance you keep and how much you pay monthly, do you only pay minimum, do you pay more than that, or do you pay in full every month.
Admittedly I don't know everything about it but I know some and I'm learning more from my brother-in-law who is a Certified Financial Planner, CFP.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Thanks for pointing this out. I'm so sick of being asked for ID when I use my credit card. BTW, here's a PDF of the merchant rules - page 29 also mentions the "See ID" nonsense.
Remember: if you try to buy something with your Visa, but they won't let you because you won't show your ID, you can file a complaint against the merchant by calling (800) VISA-911. So far I've never had to make the call, just had to threaten it.
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I would much rather have my cell phone be my:
RFID Entry key (With an actual battery it can be truly secure)
Debit/Credit Card (Same deal, different implementation)
Driver's Liscence/ID
Etc. Etc. Etc...
I should have to type in a PIN or something to spend money. You can already deactivate phone immediately if they are lost or stolen, so that's not really an issue. I'm sure this is the way things are headed.
--The universe will not be altered by forum threads, even those which are very wry. --Tycho Brahe (Penny Arcade)
The University of Minnesota already does this with their student ID cards. Not quite the same, but I still don't like it, as it makes the ID itself less useful. Policies then restrict what can be done with the card, and you end up having special cards for other functions (like, say, checking out a music practice room key card) because no one is allowed to keep the student ID because it's an ATM card. So, it really doesn't even result in fewer cards.
If Montana weren't so fscking cold and remote I'd move there in a heartbeat. Gorgeous landscape, pristine outdoors, and a freedom loving people that is still unafraid to tell the federal government who is boss.
Sorry. We're not trying to keep people IN
The United States: Most immigrated to (legally or illegally) country in the world.
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
I don't have a US driver's license, I have a Virginia State Driver's License...
No, I'm not being a smart ass. Less Federal Government.
Visa and Mastercard control about 80 percent of the credit card industry. This would be great for retailers and gas station owners who get socked with ridiculous interchange fees when consumers use the credit option instead of debit. I'm working with the Merchants Payment Coalition and this is an example of a great move toward increased competition in the credit card industry. More information is available at http://www.unfaircreditcardfees.com./
NPC's method of conducting transactions is basically the same as PayPal's - they do the relatively difficult task of gathering a valid ACH routing number and account number once, then tie this information to some other form of identification (in PayPal's case, your email address and password; in NPC's case, your license number and PIN) so that transactions can be processed on the relatively inexpensive ACH network rather than the relatively expensive VISA/MC/Amex/Discover network.
The advantages to the merchant are (1) reduced transaction fees, and (2) reduced exposure to liability for stolen cards and other fraud. If someone steals your Visa card information and uses it to buy a bunch of stuff at a retailer, that retailer is left holding the bag when you dispute the transactions; the retailer has basically no recourse. If someone steals your checkbook or ACH information, the playing field is much more level. In the case of NPC, they are willing to eat all but $50 of any fraudulent charges that occur. This will make retailers happy.
From these two examples, PayPal and NPC, we can see how a number of new payment systems could work: You just get the customer's ACH info, tie it to some form of ID (retina, RFID, celphone, fingerprint, voiceprint, barcode tattoo, Number of the Beast, or whatever) and start raking in 1% of sales (which is preferable to the 3% merchants have to pay now for credit card services.) Note that PayPal charges 3% for their services, which they are able to get away with due to their status as an EBay property, and the ease of setting up a "merchant account." More and more companies are going to start moving into this market, just because the business model is so obvious. There has long been a pent-up demand for an alternative to the aging and clunky credit card system, and this might just be the crack in the dike that leads to a revolution in payment systems.
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