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Dell or HP for Small Business?
fruitbane asks: "I work for a medium-sized non-profit, approximately 50 full-time users and 100 desktop PCs. We're redoing all our technology plans and budgeting; that means it's time to pick vendors/brands and stick to them, something we haven't reliably done in the past. Sites like Consumer Reports review various PCs and manufacturers for home users. Are there any comprehensive reviews or advice sources for those trying to determine the best vendor/manufacturer for small business desktops and laptops?"
How about finding a local computer guy that will help you out?
As a small business computer consultant and a computer repair technician, I think the issue will be more about who can help you with the inevitable problems that will occur when you use the technology in your workplace. Everyone will have their preferences, I know that at our office, we recommend Acer notebook computers and desktops, and our users seem to be happy with the advice. (Incidentally, Acer is #1 in Notebook Computers in Canada, where our office is located).
For us, the important thing is not so much the brand of computers, as each consultant will have his or her own preferences in this area. The key is the business relationship between the person who is fixing your computer and the vendor. As an Acer Authorized Dealer who also has a service relationship, we are often able to order in parts to the store to fix the client computer systems when there are issues. This is quite different from many other computer stores where they may sell the computer to you, but have to send you right back to HP or Toshiba or wherever else for service. As for Dell, the direct sales approach offered by the company means that there is rarely a reliable channel for local support for your hardware, relying instead on centralized phone support that is not always with the same person.
My opinion is that nothing beat having a local reseller to call for service that knows your business and knows your network and knows your hardware, which can help you with your issues and fix your problems.
These are the good old days you'll be telling your children about. Make them worthwhile.
1) What are your goals. Are they to save money?
2) Do you truly believe you will need "Gold/Platinum" support?
3) Can we get by without some of the big guys? (Dell/HP/etc.)
4) Is there room for savings/alternatives? (Dotproject vs. MS Project... Surgemail vs. Exchange + Outlook)
For 50 users, I'll give you a summary of what I worked with at one point a while back... Computers were a combo of Gateway and Acers we purchased off an auction lot. Most were from a business that went under. Minus HD's... We spent about $100.00 each for about 70 machines. Disks? We brought them in a lot as well. Servers, we purchased our own 1 Sun Netra 1 280r off of eBay for databases. Total cost about 500.00 for the servers. We purchased a brand new 2U server from Tiger and slapped on Linux for LAMP stuff and used SugarCRM, Surgemail, and Dotproject. Surgemail itself saved us big bucks from having to be scammed into using MS Exchange, etc.. Dotproject saved us from buying Project Server which we would have needed for what we needed to do. At first project managers didn't like it, but they also had Project on their personal machines anyway... They got over it. Project + Exchange for that SoHo (3 offices 70 or so people) would have been in excess of about 40k. (remember... seats, etc.). We ran NFS, Samba, and a couple of other things which were transparent to the layfolk. Bottom line we spent under 20k setting it up. Our most expensive purchases were Netscreen's to keep things secured (VPNs). Those cost us about 3k each.
Infiltrated dot Net
How's Lenovo (owner of IBM's former PC division for those who don't know) hold up nowdays? I've been hearing great things about the ThinkPads (as always), but I've been wondering about their desktops, and the 3000 series (consumer-line) notebooks. Do they share the same reputation as the ThinkPads? First-hand experience welcome
"I think an etch-a-sketch with an ethernet port would beat IE7 in web standards compliance."
I saw someone else mentioned that they would go with a local reseller. While that's ok, I say go a step further and support a local builder who will build it from the metal up. Unless you're going for the absolute bottom-of-the-line, then the local guys usuly can get close to or even beat The Big Guys' prices. And, in my book, the local's reliability and support can't even be touched by Dell et all. Unless you LIKE speaking to call center drone #9487 from the Philippines who isn't even ALLOWED to deviate from their script and whose solution to everything is to wipe and reinstall windows. Or unless you LIKE your computers to explode.
Once upon a time you'd buy from the biggest companies for service and reliability, and avoid small operators because of the hard time they'd give you.
That's all changed. HP are now heavily outsourced with increased breakdowns from PC's made in China (which, lets face it, never understood 'Quality'). HP have outsourced customer support to India. If you do have a problem, you'll have to argue with an arrogant call center operator who has been told he holds all the cards and that you are at his mercy. The company doesn't give a damn about quality or customer support.
Another poster suggested the local guy. I'd concur. The most important part of the PC is the motherboard (ASUS have a good name as a Taiwanese supplier who 'got' quality), HDD from Seagate or another reputable HDD manufacturer (fortunately most of the bad ones like IBM have been driven out of the business). Using a local guy you can get your own PCs built that'll be far better than any of the cost-cut, outsourced crap you'll get from the Multinationals. These days smaller companies have a much better grasp on quality and reputation. You'll also be supporting your community and country.
Since there appears to be some trouble with the question, let me clarify. We already have a lot of machines in use. Most of them are Dell, but not all of them. Dell's once great quality and support is now, according to consumer sources (and my own experience with previous workplaces), no better than anyone else's. How does an IT department reliably evaluate the big vendors to determine who's going to go the necessary distance and be a good business partner, especially for a smaller customer?
This doesn't rule out the smaller, local sources, but there can be a longevity issue there, as well as priority. Who says he can be there tomorrow with a replacement part in hand to get you back up and running? Yes, we're trying to save money, but staff time is more expensive than any single technology decision, so Linux and used computers are really not the way to go. We have adequate funding to get what we need, but we have to spend that funding wisely. When trying to standardize the products one uses, for ease of ordering, support, and keeping consumables in stock, making a bad decision can really set back the entire institution. And for that matter, when ordering 100 - 120 computers every 4 year cycle, paying an extra $50-$100 per computer can be worth it if you know you will get reliable, timely, and quality support for a quality product in return.
But how do you predict?
And to the individual who stated technology cycles every 3 years, I think that's a wonderful ideal. On a practical level, however, especially where smaller places with tighter budgets are concerned, a 4 year cycle makes more sense. Also makes it more worth investing a little extra up front.
I provide end user support to a government enterprise running about 1800 PCs. We have a mix of roughly 50/50 Dells and Gateways. I have spent WAY more time on the phone with Dell getting replacement parts, and I have to prove that I have tried everything on their scripts before they will send the parts. Gateway sends out replacements on pretty much a "no questions asked" basis, but I have only had to do that a couple times in two years. I have no idea how our management's purchasing decisions are made, but once the boxes are onsite I would much rather see Gateway.
It's all about hardware support.
So try to focus as much as possible on getting the SAME model for everything that is possible (without under-powering something).
Then get a couple of extra hard drives and a spare machine. In case of disaster, just drop in the spare machine or a replacement hard drive.
Otherwise, get on the phone and talk to the vendors about getting a 4 year, overnight replacement warranty on your hardware. Shop around. See what prices you're quoted.
Local sites will PROBABLY not be able to provide that kind of support. That requires a warehouse where you can leave extra parts. So don't expect that. Understand that you'll be storing your own emergency replacements AND spending the weekend getting the replacement server up and running after a disaster. You'll save money up-front AND maybe get some good-will. But you're trading your time for those savings.
If you keep churning the technology on a 3 year basis, you should be good.
If you're looking at 4 years, you're running a bigger risk. It depends upon what you're comfortable with. Hardware can fail at any time.
Of course you need to check them out before you buy them, have a trusted referral or ideally have been buying from them for several years. Their service is light years ahead of the Multinationals. These guys need customers. 'Chandler' who wants 'to provide you with Excellent Service' from some outsourced HP call center on the other hand doesn't care if you live or die.
If you're talking very large orders, say a few thousand PCs, there's are medium-sized businesses who can integrate it for you on a contract. I'd trust an ASUS Motherboard far more than whatever the hell is inside a HP or Dell this week.
Personally and professionally, I buy from Dell.
Their PowerEdge servers are solid. I've had hundreds, maybe over a thousand, in service over the years and haven't experienced too many problems -- certainly nothing out of the ordinary.
Their Latitude laptops are pretty nice. Maybe not the nicest laptop in the world, all of mine have lasted at least three or four years, not including time spent in friend's and family's hands after I give them away. In service in the corporate environment, again, I've had very few issues.
In terms of service, I've never been disappointed. With Gold support, you get excellent service, IMHO. It does cost a lot, so be sure you need it first. But even with the lowest form of support, I've had decent experiences. Does it take longer to get ahold of someone? Of course. Do I have to wait longer for parts? Yup. But that's what I paid for, and it has never been excessive.
Anyhow, that's my short answer.
robert
Seriously. The systems are exactly custom-ordered, they have better online documentation (including tear-down instructions for field replacement) and there hasn't been any hardware problems as of late.
HP, however, has a ton of problems it needs to resolve. It's site is counter-intuitive, both on buying a system and getting support for whatever you have. It's offerings are very fixed, even after it borged Compaq. Some offerings have variations that are hard to find, and some even harder to find support to. I hear the customer service isn't worth the phone call.
I'm not sure about Lenovo, since they're owned by the Chinese government. Gateway I haven't heard from, but depending on how hard you're on laptops, maybe Panasonic?
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# Canmephians for a better Linux Kernel
$Stalag99{"URL"}="http://stalag99.net";
it's already outlasted an apple laptop a friend bought at about the same time.
I've bought 4 new, well really 3 and a factory remanufactered one, Windows PCs and of them only one did not have any hardware troubles in the first year I had them. On the other hand I've also bought 2 used Macs and they both lasted longer than the PCs did. The first Mac I got was an SE30 in 1992. It lasted without problems until 2000, when the floppy drive died. The second's a Powermac 7300/200 I got in 2000, a few months after the the first one died. It lasted until early 2006 when it refused to bootup. The first one I used for 8 years and the second for 6 years.
Because of my experiences with Macs and PCs, and because MS wants to treat it's customers like criminals, I've decided to switch entirely to Linux and Macs. Several months ago I got a new PC with Linux preinstalled, which I'll setup as a server, and for a laptop I plan on getting a Macbook Pro. Unless and until MS gets rid of it's requirements for Activation and the spyware if I can at all avoid it I will never again buy anything with Windows on it. Nor will I get Office.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Strictly from a support view, I would recommend Dell. Based primarily on my current experience with HP and past experience with Dell. I currently also work for a non-profit, albeit a much larger one. We administrator about 275 servers for school data centers across all of Washington State. I have to call HP support several times a week, and every time I dread it. I get the run around from the 'techs', I am regularly told that our servers are 'not under any warrenty' (I tell them the 300K a month we spend assures me that they are - and usually have to talk to a manger), and of course the language barrier is awful (I believe they are in Costa Rica). Oh and did I mention the voice activated call routing system? That sucks too. It's so NOT fun to have to repeat 'Proliant running Microsoft' out loud into the phone 10 times just to get a human on the phone. Keep in mind we have the *highest* support level offered by HP.
At my last job, I ran a much, much smaller datacenter with only about 6 Dell servers (I use the term data center loosely). There we had what Dell called 'Gold level support'. The fact that I usually spoke with native English speakers was awesome all by itself. But I could usually get a tech on site much faster, and with much less hassle. And we got a direct line to Tier II support.
I judt got a nre Kinesis keybiartf so please excusr ant egregiou typos.
Well I'd suggest your problem is not choosing between two different brands of conventional computers.
.15 per KWH for carbon based generation to the price of solar electric generation, which is currently perhaps $.40 to $1.20 per KWH, When electricity is priced as if it were solar electricity, low energy computers quickly become the lower total lifetime cost device.
The answer to "what kind of new computer?" is "It must be low energy consumption now."
The first point I would suggest is: Now is the time to begin aggressively moving to low energy consumption computing for general purpose office machines.
The conventional mass market machinery that I see is not dramatically better than my 700 mhz 1998 Athlon. My computer burns 176 watts ( about 90 watts for the CRT monitor, and 90 watts for the cpu with 2 disk drives, My machine also wastes 4 minutes starting ).
The typical $800 business box with a CPU running at 2% load for 99% of every 8 to 10 hour workday is way too much energy consumption for typical office work.
One way of arguing for low energy computers is look at the total cost of the electricity used over the lifetime of the computer. Then reprice the electricity from $
The problem is to deliver a way of doing the work of your organization with dramatically lower carbon burden. If you set a goal of replacing individual machines with machines that use 1/3 to 1/5 the energy of present office machines you will be moving towards a low energy business profile that will look good for 5 to 7 years.
Energy reductions in the 20% to 33% range mean you need cutting edge low energy systems. "Cutting edge" means as consumers we need quality comparative reviews. Some low energy systems may not be right, other configurations may do what is needed elegantly.
Right now, low energy office computing is practical. For instance there is the Wyse terminal server client product that I think burns around 35 watts with a display. Lashups like a gumstix, an LCD, a keyboard, and a mouse are almost office computers in the 5 to 20 watt range.
HP? Dell? Avoid, avoid, avoid.
Find a small or medium sized vendor, preferably headquartered in your area, that carries a good small-name brand, store brand, or whitebox lineup. Ideally you want systems composed entirely of bog-standard interchangeable off-the-shelf hardware components.
In Ohio, for example, there's an outfit called Microcenter, with locations in Columbus and Cleveland. They carry big-name computers like HP and so forth, but they also carry a whitebox brand called PowerSpec. After I discovered this brand we quit buying Dell and HP and so forth where I work.
I got tired of having a computer that's six months out of warrantee have a part go bad (a CD-ROM drive, say) and not being able to replace the part because it was non-standard in some way (e.g., designed to fit behind a non-standard case front). All the big international brands pull those sorts of schenanighans, for no good reason, and it leaves you with computers you can't service the minute they're out of warrantee and therefore must replace entirely when even a cheap component dies. Oops, I can't replace the power supply because it has a special connector for that weird fan in the front of the case. Oops, there's a case fan making a racket and I can't replace it because it has a non-standard mounting form factor. These are the sort of unpleasant surprises you can expect with the big brands. Usually you discover it about two months after the warrantee expires.
Do yourself a favor. Avoid the big international brands that like to have a new non-standard "feature" for each model line. Instead find a brand that uses 100% standard off-the-shelf components.
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
That's what I told the admin of our finance network when she started getting in Dell desktops.
Three years later she was saying "You were right". Every model was a unique design, the motherboards, power supply connectors, cases, and everything was designed to force you to replace the computer when you needed to upgrade, to force you to go to Dell for support, and when the warranty runs out you're out of luck.
HP? The HP desktops I've seen have been bog standard ATX cases and motherboards, maintainable and upgradable without HP's help. Much better value.