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High Paying Jobs in Math and Science?
An anonymous reader asks: "Where are the high paying jobs for those who are good in math and science? I've heard about math and science shortages for almost two decades now, and I was wondering what high salary/high demand jobs have resulted from these shortages. Most science majors I know actually make less than teachers (in Texas teachers make $38-40K to start for nine months of work). In terms of money, what career would you pursue coming out of college right now with a math or science degree?"
... Actuary (insurance, etc)
There is no shortage of math and science majors. I'm nearing completion of a PhD in science, and if I could go back 6 years, I would go to law school instead. Yes, there is a shortage of brilliant scientists and mathematicians because hey, our economy depends on innovation that comes from the elite few. Science and math jobs? Maybe you can call engineering jobs related to science and math and of course corporations don't want there to be demand of engineering students because that would drive up salaries.
I'm not a teacher, but I don't think you should use teachers as an example of someone who should be paid less than someone in math and science. Frankly, I wouldn't put up with today's disrespectful teenagers even for a substantial raise.
Sure, there are some crappy teachers out there that give them a bad reputation, but you can say that about any profession.
Math credentials worked for the last guy up to a point....
It's not a bad thing to ask which jobs will help you pay your student loans and give you a decent quality of life versus ones that will doom you to debt and a monastic lifestyle for years to come.
It's virtually guaranteed that the first type of jobs do not exist, and the second type are the only jobs open to people under the age of 37. Even if you earn $160,000/year, to earn that much you're going to have to live in a place that costs you $100,000/year for a studio apartment.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
However, some people like to live comfortably, and other people have families to support. Really, why should you begrudge some guy who just wants to see what his labor is worth?
And besides, what some people consider boring, can turn out to be something you love. I love designing/creating databases, it seems boring as heck to some people, but to me its actually fun. So let the guy find something he might get paid well for AND enjoy doing.
I have a degree in physics and don't work in physics because I wanted to make money. The fact is, to get paid well someone bigger than you has got to want what you do bad enough to pay up. There are 1.3 billion people in China, 1 billion in India, and 300 million in the U.S. Do you offer something so unique that people want to pay you more? Or are you easily replaced?
My fellow physics graduates that wanted to stay in physics wanted to do research. First, the physics that man understands is far beyond what we have been able to utilize, so we don't necessarily need new ground breaking research as much as uses for what we already know. Second, what you do eventually has to be monetized. If your employer can't make money off you, he doesn't need you.
Lastly, define "high paying". The average income in the U.S. is somewhere in the $35,000 range. Then there are the financial wizards, namely CEOs and money managers. All of the top 100 hedge fund managers/ traders made at least $150 million last year, with the top 5 or so making around $800,000,000 (traderdaily.com for info). Basically, if you think making $60,000 or $80,000 or even $100,000 is a lot of money, you aren't even close to getting rich. If you want to be a scientist, you have to want to do the science regardless of the pay. That wasn't me.
...then you are overpriced for the market.
Here's the test: can you go out and form your own company and make more than you are being offered? If you cannot, then you've just discovered why somebody else doesn't want to hire you for that kind of money. Stop thinking about it as how much you are "worth" because of your educational expenditures, and start looking at the income you can reliably, continuously produce for your company. Once you have that number, divide it by three* and that's what your salary should be.
*okay, maybe two in a really large organization with low overhead, or if you fall at the very low or high ends of the payscale. But you're unlikely to be in either of the high/low paid cases.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
$30K a year is not bad for a single guy in his twenties. The problem is that many scientists are still making $30-$40K a year (e.g. as post-docs) in their 30's and 40's. It's hard to support a family on $30K a year - particularly if you're also hoping to save up enough to buy a house, pay for your kid's college and have enough left over for your own retirement.
In fact, let's do the math. Suppose you want to retire at age 65 and die at age 85 while living on a (rather meager) income of $30K a year. That's 20 years at $30K a year or $600K. Let's say you have two kids who go to a good, but not great, college (e.g. pray your kids aren't smart enough to get accepted to Harvard or MIT). That'll run you another $50K each for a total of $100K. Now, let's say you live in an average area. A decent house in a decent neighborhood will run you $300K. That's a million dollars total that you've got to earn in addition to putting food on the table (and paying medical bills and car bills and clothes, etc).
Let's say you get your undergrad degree by age 22 and you get your PhD by age 28 and you've got your student loans paid off by age 30. You now have 35 years to earn a million dollars in addition to "putting food on the table" for your family. That's $30K a year you need to be earning in addition to your day to day living expenses. Well, it's kind of hard to do that when your salary throughout your 30's and 40's is only $30K a year.
Sure, science pays better than being a checkout clerk at Walmart but it's pretty hard to justify all that extra effort and education when medical school or law school would have you earning ten times as much ($300k a year versus $30K a year).
The challenge is that the current generation of college students and recent graduates has been led to believe that they are entitled to a life filled with stuff and with little self-sacrifice required.
If *everyone* would learn to adjust their expectations about what constitutes a minimal acceptable standard of living so that they can live without debt within or - gasp - below their means - our culture would be wealthier, stronger, and better equipped to face challenges.
My next door neighbors are first generation immigrants from El Salvador. They have a three bedroom house which the two parents, three kids, his dad, her mom, share the house with two renters who live in the basement. 9 people in a 1700 square foot house! This is in one of the wealthiest counties in the States. The mom and dad have two jobs. The grandmother has a job, and the dad has occasional work on a third job. These are people who have little education and very poor English skills. They are thrilled to have the opportunity to live in this country, and they are making it happen. It's tough going, but a better deal than in Central America, and they consider it a privilege to have American citizenship. Perhaps we should, too.
Most of these college kids could live at home, have a part time job, enroll in community college for core credits, before transferring to a 4 year college, drastically cutting their tuition. They could refuse to allow themselves to spend more on their credit card than they can pay in a given month. They could live off-campus with several roommates to minimize housing costs. They could forego cable, cell phones and cars to reduce their expenses until their income increases.
Instead, our culture of consumption tells people that they should "buy it now." People actually think that they cannot expect to pay off a car or a house within their lifetime. Ridiculous!
We're generally narcissistic and convinced that stuff, power, or sex will satisfy us. This leads to frustration, deeper debt, and hopelessness.
It's not that life is hard and these kids are victims! It's that mostly they think that they have to obtain a standard of living that is higher than their income, and they become indentured servants at 20%/year interest.
But Herr Heisenberg, how does the electron know when I'm looking?
But really, I think you are wrong. You can easily get a starting job in Austin for between $50 to 60K in the computer fields. Housing will run you about $12K a year renting a 1-bedroom (and that's a decent neighborhood, not the slums). That's plenty left over for food, car, gas, etc.
And if that's all that you were spending, that would be fine. But there's also the usury on those student loans (most people don't know this- but the banks can change the interest rate *after* the contract has been signed, unless it's explicitly in the contract not to- after a couple of deferments those student loans could easily exceed 20% APR), and to service the debt on the student loans, you need consumer debt when the car breaks down, etc. Also, $50 to 60K isn't a good enough salary to pay off the student debt anymore- you need $75-100k for that. At which point instead of Austin, you're looking at Manhattan.
There's good reason why Generation X and the Millenial Generation is now being called Generation Debt- on average we're spending 108% of our income just to survive.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
The great teachers put in the extra time. Most of the teachers don't do any more time during the school year than your typical "40 hour" salaried employee. And, for the record, I think they technically 10 month employees, since they are often required to be in school the week before and (sometimes after) the academic year.
/. time, of course - it's my watercooler) - when I'm not under a real crunch, though I find that trying to get in more the 60 hours is pretty wasted time. I used to be a company guy, and I've done some side teaching (not much, and not k-12). I don't do well with other people's schedules, so I work for myself. I couldn't deal with 30 adolescents every day, and I don't know a k-12 teacher who can design a seismic moment resisting frame.
Most teachers, esp. those whohave never done anything else, don't realize that most salaried workers work more than 40 hours for their paychecks, and often see about 15-20 days of total leave.
Most non-teachers don't understand that for most of the day, a teacher is "on" and teaching requires more "quality" work time during those 4.5-6 hours than your typical cube drone in the same span of time.
Me? I don't work for the Man, I am the Man. When I don't come in to work, I don't get paid. If I take vacation, I don't get paid. If I don't do my job completely, I don't get paid. I don't get health insurance, retirement benefits, disability, or any other perk unless I pay for it. I have to pay for my annual training twice - once for the training, and again in the time that I'm not able to bill clients. I work about 50 hours a week (plus
Teachers actually get paid similarly what someone in industry with similar "ability" would get paid, on an annual basis, but they do have a lot more free time. If they choose to spend that free time on their classes and their career, that's their choice for the most part. Every discipline has people who like what they do, and part of that time is rightfully considered "hobby", not paid service. The trick is finding that person to work for you, or be your teacher, or provide you with their service.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
You have pretty high standards for what constitutes living comfortably. Many people are never able to buy a house, nor are they able to pay for their children's education. My parents didn't pay for my education, and I was able to get one. It's great to be able to finance your child's education, but that is a luxury. Like I said, 30 K is quite enough money, especially as a starting salary. If you don't think so, you need to re-evaluate your priorities. Also, your calculations are off, because you aren't considering that there's a second person making money in the family. While some people still have the wife stay home, the vast majority of families have both parents working. So, your 600K becomes 1.2 Million. Just as a reference point, I'm currently making $45,000 a year, and my wife isn't working, because she stays home and looks after the kids. I have no problem paying the bills, and actually have quite a bit of money left over at the end of each month. And we are still paying off our student loans (Total $300 a month). In 3 years, I'll have enough saved up for a down payment and I'll be able to buy a house.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
If you take a look at our local elementary school parking lot after 3 you know they aren't staying late. When I drop my son off in the morning I see them coming in so I know they aren't there early. I don't buy it.
Are you seriously concluding that if a teacher isn't in the schoolhouse then they're not doing any work?
You have absolutely no idea of the extra work public school teachers go through. My mother has taught public school for the past 20 years, and she has ALWAYS brought work home with her to do. There were consistent homeworks to grade, materials to prepare, and lessons to plan out. She would make things out of construction paper (and we'd help her), or spend alot of time with MS Word making handouts for the next day, etc.
Do you honestly think all those lessons that teachers teach all day long magically prepare themselves? While it does get easier after a few years, there's ALWAYS extra stuff to do. And with textbooks and curriculums changing, as well as moving teachers around, the lessons are never static from one year to the next.
I've also heard the "we have to take classes in the summer". I know teachers and maybe once every 5 years do they take a class.
Well, my mother did go through extra night classes for several years to earn her Masters in Education, but as you say not all teachers do that.
If teachers would ditch the unions and tenure they might start being considered professionals along with doctors/lawywers/engineers. This might allow the good teachers to actually be compensated above the average and get people into the profession.
Unions and tenure are the things keeping the teachers from being exploited as just cheap labor, why do you want the teachers to get rid of them first? How about the schools (really the state and municipal governments) offer them professional salaries thus making the need for unions and tenures obsolete?
make world, not war
Seriously, if all you care about is money, go be an investment banker or a money whore somewhere else. Our field is littered with people like you who get a job hoping for big bucks but end up circling the drain for a few years while producing horrible work.
You are crying sour grapes because you have been unable to capitalize on your skills while others less capable outearn you at mach speed.
Dude, calm down.. Its called a first job. He won't be making the same pay the rest of his life.
BTW, renting versus owning is no longer such an obvious choice either. In many places in this country you will throw away $1000+ a month simply on interest, taxes and insurance, not to mention maintenance. Often its wiser to spend that $1000 on a decent apartment then sock the extra you would be paying in principal into a good investment. Possibly real-estate even, but not necessarily your real-estate. It all depends upon where you live in the market.
No man has true freedom unless his passive income exceeds his living expenses. Only once you reach this level of freedom (which corresponds to having about $800k well-invested in most of the USA), can you really do whatever the hell you are truly passionate about, with no compromises.
The quickest way to get there, for most people, is to get a college degree in a field with high market value, live cheap, and invest everything you can in revenue-generating business that you don't have to manage (so you can keep working on what you specialize in). ETFs (like DIA) make this REALLY easy to do. If you can stomach extra volatility, leveraged ETFs (like DDM) could greatly shorten the time it takes for you to be be a self-made trust-fund baby (er... middle aged person).
Advice of "do whatever you're most interested in [regardless of pay]" sounds nice, and may be more fun in the short term, but it is much less likely to bring you true freedom than being a "money whore."
When you can live off of your investments, you can change jobs, contracts, and careers at will. Otherwise, you will be filling out TPS reports, all-the-while chained to your current job for the ability to feed yourself and afford medical care.
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
Tags != Comments, and -1 (Troll) != -1 (I Would Respond Angrily To This Poster So They Must Be Trolling)
$30k a year gross :
... so there's the comparison. Software engineering after five years = way below the curve set by the Military. Possibly behind the curve for life, and that's before we consider going in as an officer (requires college, etc.) After only a single promotion with 3 years in the service, an O2 in the Navy stationed in San Diego makes the equiv of $73.5k a year. Makes what they are offering software engineers with three years experience look like chicken-feed, and again - we keep hearing how we 'under-pay' the military.
-7.5% FICA (-2250)
-5% 401(k) (-1500)
-15% IRS (-4500)
-$300 a month for student loans (using your example) (-3600)
=$18k a year take home = $1,500 a month to live on.
Rent on a 700sf apartment, 1br/1ba, in just about anywhere that has tech jobs nearby (California, Boston area, etc) will run you $800 a month easy. $700 a month for a complete dive in a crack infested neighborhood.
Electricity / heat / water - $100 / month (being conservative).
Cable (internet / maybe also tv) - $60 / month.
Phone (cell or land-line) - $40 a month
Car insurance for a young single man - $100 / month
I'm going to assume a car that runs but is older (no payment). Maintenance ($50/mo), gas ($100/mo) : $150 / month
That leaves $350 a month.
Breakfast, Lunch and Dinner on $10 a day is not unreasonable, for a healthy diet including eggs, bread, milk, coffee, meat, cheese - all the things a software engineer eats.
That leaves $50 a month for :
clothing (for working in an office setting)
laundry (once a month, whether it needs it or not)
ethanol (beer / liquor)
music
hardware upgrades (have to keep current)
WoW subscription
furnishing your home
going on dates
chocolate
and emergencies.
I'm not saying it can't be done - I've lived on less (was only making $25k a year right out of college) - I'm just saying it isn't the kind of life that you might expect for a degreed professional software engineer.
For comparison, assuming instead had you gone into the military as a boot-camp recruit (E1) and did five years (four years instead of college, plus you would be in your fifth year) and made E5 (not difficult, it is like a second class or something, still a nobody with no authority or responsibility) according to the pay charts found here in San Diego you would be making the equiv of about $50.5k a year, including housing and subsistance pay (but not including combat pay, no matter how rough things get in San Diego.) And no student loans, which is another $3,600 a year difference, bringing it up to an effective $54k a year. And no medical costs. And after less than 30 years you can retire at 100% of your base salary (that would mean retiring at 45 with a lifetime income of about $55k a year, plus or minus depending on how far up the food chain you made it.) As someone going on 40, the thought of being able to retire in five years at 100% of my base salary sounds really, really good right about now. A LOT better than waiting until I'm 65 or 68 or whatever they cranked it up to recently for the regular world.
And we keep hearing how 'under paid' the military enlisted are
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
The parent is the best post in the thread thus far. A personal trading account, ETFs, and a bit of research go a long way, practically regardless of what you might happen to earn. Maximise your investments for the year ("pay yourself first"), then have fun with life. Bravo, sir, for keeping your eye on the ball.
The only way anyone will ever truly be able to do "what they love" is by first being a "money whore" (or being born rich).
So true. I went into Computer Science because I didn't want my family to face the same financial hardships my parents faced while raising me and my siblings. I'm not trying to abuse the system, or slack off, or produce anything but the best possible designs with thorough testing and superb documentation. But there are dozens of fields of knowledge that interest me, and I picked this one because I researched the matter and thought it was something I could stand that would also pay the bills.
I do enjoy my job, but not nearly so much that I enjoy arriving at work more than arriving at home after work.
Get a job doing what you love to do. Set up your life so you only spend 30% on housing (buy a house wherever you can afford it with this percent of your income, fuck impressing people for 10 years at least... never spend anything on an apartment), 30% on living and 40% stick into a high growth mutual fund of some sort (YMMV but energy is still really good right now).
Keep your eye on the ball, which is 5 years from now, no matter when now is. That 40% you put into growing your money will compound no matter how poorly you manage it. In 5 years you will have a hell of a lot more money than you had before AND because you bought a house your housing investment will also appreciate and you can then sell and get something much nicer.
In 10 years you may even look like a respectable member of society AND you'll have enjoyed getting there.
So get a job, any job, that you like... and then live. Set your life up correctly, then relax and let time do the work for you.
A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
Where are the high paying jobs for those who are good in math and science? I've heard about math and science shortages for almost two decades now, and I was wondering what high salary/high demand jobs have resulted from these shortages.
Well, actually very few thanks to H1B/L1 visas and American businesses deciding that they don't want to pay free market rates for native technical labor (although it's just dandy for their products). Whenever the pool of available native tech talent starts to get the slightest bit tight they go to Congress screaming "We need more imported tech labor!!!". Of course the truth is that they don't need more imported tech labor, they just want it given they can pay imported labor far less (especially in urban areas where the cost of living is high, where a great majority of tech jobs tend to be today) and can keep them captive (i.e., the imported labor can't quit to find a better job/more pay once they're here without risking their visas and associated deportation). It's all basically a scam (note the current Charlie Foxtrot in progress regarding the proposed immigration law overhaul) to keep business fatcats from paying people market value for their technical skills.
So what's been the glaring end result of these visa policies? The pool of native tech talent continues to drop because nobody wants to work for artificially suppressed wages (i.e., the free market at work), so the businesses then scream even louder to Congress for more imported tech labor to thwart what are basically the effects of the free market further depressing the outlook for native techies. Technical work has now gone the same way as textiles and agriculture in that it's a trade for a dedicated, cheap labor pool.
Most science majors I know actually make less than teachers (in Texas teachers make $38-40K to start for nine months of work).
Rest assured if the business types have their way it will continue to be so; do yourself a favor and go to business or law school.