Novell Partners With EFF on Patent Busting

Seymour writes "Novell and the EFF have announced that Novell will be contributing to the EFF's Patent Busting Project. Novell will also support the EFF's efforts toward patent reform, including with the WIPO. Could this be Novell trying to get back in the good graces of Linux users? 'Novell's agreement with Microsoft has been a source of contention within open source circles, with one Red Hat executive accusing the company of appeasing Microsoft; others have accused Novell of violating the GPL with the agreement. Either way, signing the deal with Microsoft did a lot to sully Novell in the eyes of many Linux users, and Novell's decision to link up with the EFF on patents may have been made with an eye towards getting some of its street cred back with the OSS community.'"

Comments

Doesn't really work like that

[26199]

For me, at least, there aren't any second chances. The great thing about the Linux market is there's plenty of choice. Why choose Novell now?

I won't be.

(Same idea behind not buying Sony ever again.)

Re:Doesn't really work like that

[caffeinemessiah]

Could this be Novell trying to get back in the good graces of Linux users?

Oh grow up. Novell doesn't give a rats a** if its "in the good graces" of Linux users. If MS gets serious about pursuing litigation (however unlikely), Novell is sitting on a plump little target -- Suse. MS (or anyone else who has a bone to pick with FOSS) won't go after end users -- it'll go after the cash cow that is Novell.

Re:Doesn't really work like that

[VirusEqualsVeryYes]

(Same idea behind not buying Sony ever again.)

Absolutely no second chances? So, I suppose you're not buying Nintendo, either? Shame, that.

Re:Doesn't really work like that

[Anonymous Coward]

hat is why all the talk about convincing Novell dropping its pact with Microsoft never made any sense to me. People who were committed to Suse and dropped their support for Suse after the deal wouldn't rush back after giving it up because of mistrust and the effort involved. If Novell dropped their pact with Microsoft now, they would not get the full support of the community back which means the damage is done, and Novell would be giving up any of the positive benefits their pact provides (i.e. sales, interoperability collaboration, legal piece of mind for customers who actually have such a fear, etc.). Novell may have shot itself in the foot with the deal, but shooting itself in the other foot will hardly heal the wounds in the first. What heals wounds is time and avoiding anything that aggravates the problem.

Re:Doesn't really work like that

[physicsphairy]

Why choose Novell now?

Because it is based on that expectation that their actions were pursued, and if you do not reward companies which make these 'selfless' maneuvers on behalf of open source, then none will. It's the same as eeking linux loaded comps out of Dell, in regard to which numerous persons have commented on the necessity of now purchasing these comps to validate the move.

Now, I've never used SuSE, and don't really plan to, and I'm not saying everyone should now jump ship to Novell in servile gratitude. But I do think it's fair for us to tender some rescinding of animosity in regard to Novell's previous patent deal--for those persons who were upset about it--or elsewise indicate appreciation of their latest move.

Why shouldn't we be nice to people who are nice to us?

Re:Doesn't really work like that

[oztiks]

If thats the case we would of seen similar reactions from Redhat or another enterprising companies that "sell" Linux. The way I see it if a smoker is to sue the tobacco companies for their own bad health, it opens the door for anyone else who smokes also to sue them as well.

I think in this case it would be exactly the same. Do unto Novell what you'd expect happen to your own company, with the recent adoption of Linux to Dell and the lacking of what is and what is to come i.e "Windows Vista" this is just yet another part of this constant struggle of playing the right tricks to make the most easy cash possible.

This whole coupon deal was just that, lets see, umm ... Microsoft threatens to sue Linux users, Microsoft finds a way to screw a distribution of Linux whose maintained by a company that needs Microsoft support in other product lines. Redhat you see doesn't need Windows where as Novell really does, just like Norton needs Windows but is also getting screwed with the same sort of tactics. After Microsoft finds this way to screw Novell and make that easy cash, they publicly announce (because they know they cant win) that they are NOT going to sue anybody for using Linux any time soon.

So what would you expect? Novel is like F**k what did we do? a) We pissed off a pile of people / businesses that use our product (or did) b) had a pile of our customers purchase something they didn't need c) worked directly with Satan himself, then bastard ran off with our soul and we look like a pile of D**ks to everybody now so lets go into repair mode PR style and see what we can do about cleaning up the mess.

Same Old Story - With a Different Beat

[Bob9113]

Husband sleeps with his secretary. Wife finds out. He buys her a Tiffany's bracelet. For some wives it's the bracelet that matters. For some it's the remorse (or lack thereof). For some there is no uncheating. Same story here.

All this shows

[Rogerborg]

Is that Novell are trying to have it both ways. But Free (not Open Source) Software is about principles, not realpolitik. Novell can't back both sides, or claim to be some sort of bridge across troubled waters. Well, they can, but we shouldn't be enabling them. Free Software is over hyar, Microsoft is over thyar. The only acceptable compromise is for Microsoft to surrender; we have nothing to gain by moving towards them.

Re:All this shows

[giorgiofr]

Why does one always have to make this kind of choice? OSS vs MS, MS is t3h debul, wtf... Every time I build a system I assess its needs and choose the right OS for the job. Sometimes it's Win, sometimes it's Lin, sometimes it's BSD, but *never* does it become a religious matter. Why do you, and many other people, make one out of such trivial issues as what OS to use?

Re:All this shows

[killjoe]

Because principles are important to some people. Apparently they are not important to you but not everybody is like you. Some people boycott unethical and sleazy companies. Some people only buy dolphin safe tuna. Some people only drink fair trade coffee. Some people don't shop at walmart.

MS is a sleazy, unethical company run by people who are borderline sociopaths. There are lots of reasons not to support the corporation by buying it's products. When you buy MS products you are supporting them and their actions.

You support MS, most people do. Some people don't. Why is that hard to understand?

The proof of the pudding...

[HiThere]

Novell isn't yet, quite, in my list of totally untrustworthy companies. They seem determined to get there, but for now I'm willing to not condemn this move before I see the results. For now.

This doesn't mean that I'm willing to use or recommend Novell software. That appears wantonly reckless. Perhaps *AFTER* I seen the agreement with MS, and decide whether the redacted parts might be larger than a couple of words, and get some reactions from independant lawyers. Perhaps after that I'll be more willing to trust them. Maybe. And maybe just the opposite. The weasel words so far used in public commentaries don't inspire any confidence at all. They're rather like the MS pledge that "We don't currently have any plans to sue...". They could change their mind at any minute, and they aren't obligating themselves to give any warning. And there could exist plans right now that this spokes-thing just doesn't know about, possibly on purpose. Novell seems to aim more towards incoherence than ambiguity, but the effect is the same. The promises appear worthless, and certainly not legally binding. (And if a corporation is carefully insuring that its public statements aren't legally binding, what does that imply about its trustworthiness?)

Well, possibly these were off-the-cuff remarks, and not carefully thought out. Possibly. But they have explicitly refrained from making any carefully thought out statements that address the topic...unless they were so vague as to be worthless. (Or unless they were statements about how someone else would behave, which they obviously can't be responsible for.)

We'll see what gets published about the MS-Novell deal, and we'll see how this quest for "patent reform" works out. Perhaps after those resolve we'll decide that Novell was merely clumsy about what they did and were misunderstood. Possibly. Until then, however... well, Safety First. And that means avoiding Novell, as well as MS.

They should be in our good graces...

[dteichman2]

Novell worked out a deal with Microsoft. Novell got a big bucket-o-cash, and Microsoft got what still seems to amount to nothing.

Now with this, it seems like two things are true.

1.) Novell costs Microsoft money.
2.) Novell actively works against Microsoft.

Awesome

Re:They should be in our good graces...

[apokryphos]

Using Judas terminology doesn't validate your point, unfortunately. Microsoft have always been claiming that Linux violates Microsoft's patents. This is NOTHING new. Novell couldn't have made it clearer that they didn't agree to any nonsense about Linux infringing on MS's patents, and Microsoft even openly admitted this wasn't part of the deal, and yet you'll still go on about it. :)

Re:They should be in our good graces...

[Dogtanian]

Doesn't matter. Microsoft got what will be perceived by many as *external* validation, which isn't the same thing as them themselves parroting that Linux violates their patents.

Novell wanted to have their cake and eat it, and despite their assertion that they "couldn't have made it clearer that they didn't agree to any [such] nonsense", if they knew how the deal would likely be perceived in practice, such a statement is likely to be meaningless or just legal ass-covering.

Re:They should be in our good graces...

[apokryphos]

That's nonsense. Novell have made it explicitly clear, and since they have, the only thing it possibly does is make Microsoft look silly (as they regularly do). Although you clearly don't want to admit it, this deal has been very beneficial for Novell (and, in turn, Linux), and it's hardly like Microsoft have used the deal to begin their campaign on Linux infringing on MS's patents -- that has always (ALWAYS) been around.

> if they knew how the deal would likely be perceived in practice, such a statement is likely to be meaningless or just legal ass-covering.

The only people who perceive it that way are some Microsoft speakers and a few clueless people in the Linux community. I haven't seen any indication anywhere else to suggest otherwise.

The reason 99% of the people (and, I know this from direct experience) in the Linux community are annoyed about this is because there's some (as usual) very vocal poisonous people in the community who spute out countless of erroneous negative headlines without even knowing what's going on. Others in the community see these headlines, think the headlines alone are evidence, and don't even consider the matter. I mean, the amount of people I've seen who think that Novell have some immunity from Microsoft (completely false), or the amount of people I've seen who think that countless of people have left Novell because of this (when only two have permanently left), or the amount of people who think that Novell is losing money from this (when they're getting a few hundred million), or the amount of people who have no clue about Novell's hundreds of Linux engineers in the open source community (KDE, GNOME, Linux kernel, OpenOffice.org, etc), is always astounding.

It's an unfortunate simple fact: people like fighting for a cause when the ideal (freedom) is good, even when there's no threat to it or they're ignorant of who the enemy is.

This headline is nothing new from Novell (I mean, they're an OIN founding member), but people will still interpret it in a silly way.

Re:They should be in our good graces...

[apokryphos]

> JUST WHY DO NOVELL CUSTOMERS NEED PROTECTING FROM "MICROSOFT IP" BY THIS COVENANT NOT TO SUE?

This has been answered countless times. Personally, I think Andreas Jaeger said it best: Let me state clearly: We do not think that Novell's Linux distributions violate valid patents - but if they do, we do change the code to avoid or work around the patent. Meanwhile we have some means in place to protect customers and developers better. So, it's some kind of important insurance.

We did not expect that Microsoft would sue individuals. But who would have known a couple of years ago that the record industry is going after individuals downloading or copying music and driving them in bankruptcy. Therefore the agreements consider a promise not to sue.

The meaning is clear: customers want the extra assurance. When you've got billions of dollars, you cannot avoid so many risks, you become a big target. This is why Microsoft customers asked for the protection from Novell as well, of not being sued.

Re:They should be in our good graces...

[bmo]

"This is why Microsoft customers asked for the protection from Novell as well, of not being sued."

Oh gawd, this is an ISSUE? Are you SERIOUS? This does not even pass the laugh test!

"When you've got billions of dollars, you cannot avoid so many risks, you become a big target. "

And Google is the biggest Linux user out there. Microsoft has not sued Google for the $BIGPAYOFF. Neither does anyone believe that Microsoft will even attempt it.

"We do not think that Novell's Linux distributions violate valid patents"

Then do what Redhat has done. Novell could have indemnified its users just like Redhat. Doing so does not need the cooperation of Microsoft.

Signing the agreement with Microsoft has given PERCEIVED validation to Microsoft's claims. Signing the agreement "admits" that Linux has "problems" be they real or not. What I don't get is why Novell didn't see this coming and that you refuse to admit the reality of Microsoft's most recent FUD campaign being _started_ by this.

In the war of words that Microsoft is waging, perception is everything, and Novell handed the PR bullet to Microsoft on a silver platter.

--
BMO

Re:They should be in our good graces...

[apokryphos]

> Oh gawd, this is an ISSUE? Are you SERIOUS? This does not even pass the laugh test!

You can laugh it off but it's not addressing the very serious fact that customers have asked for it.

> And Google is the biggest Linux user out there. Microsoft has not sued Google for the $BIGPAYOFF. Neither does anyone believe that Microsoft will even attempt it.

Pretty bad argument. Just because Google might not be concerned, this is not to say that many other customers aren't (which they are). Microsoft would hardly get involved with Google over Linux (if anything) anyway.

> Signing the agreement with Microsoft has given PERCEIVED validation to Microsoft's claims.

No it hasn't. We can argue all day on how different people perceive it, or what the "spirit" of some agreement is etc etc, and yet the only things that really stand are the facts, what's written down. The fact that you have to get cornered into "well, it's perceived that way" when the only people who have implied that are some Microsoft speakers (a long time ago) and some people in the Linux community who don't know about the deal itself, is very telling.

Anyway, if the perceptions are erroneous (which you seem to imply) you should be battling against them, not the deal (or Novell) itself.

Why i use OpenSuSE

[mrsteveman1]

I've seen a few people in this thread and others ask "Why use Novell software?". I assume in this case you mean SuSE linux, and OpenSuSE, so i'll start there. This is long, but true, I have used OpenSuSE long enough to recognize how useful it is compared to other systems available and these things are why I will not just abandon SuSE or Novell.

I have used Ubuntu, RHEL, CentOS, Gentoo, Slackware, and Fedora both in the past and quite recently, and at this time OpenSuSE remains the most usable Linux system available, for a variety of reasons, but in particular the Yast system. Yast fills in a lot of the gaps in Linux system and hardware management. Some of the Yast functions are not presently available anywhere else, and if you decide to use Gnome this is even more important because Yast fills in many of the massive holes in Gnome for these areas. And I don't mean just basic stuff, but more advanced things, like a GUI for inserting PCI IDs into a driver if your card doesn't match perfectly or at all, or a well made Xorg configuration panel, or very well designed network card configuration. It also has GUI configuration for almost every common network service daemon, such as ldap, apache, NIS, kerberos, bind, nfs, sendmail, samba and so on. Pehaps the single most important useful aspect of yast is that all of these functions can be completed over SSH, in a console, or without Xorg at all, because there are totally identical yast systems for both GUI and ncurses, this alone makes yast fairly unique.

OpenSuSE also has one of the best installers I have ever seen, and it beats just about everything. By everything I mean Windows XP, Windows Vista, OS X, and without a doubt every other Linux dist installer out there. Why you ask? Some very important reasons include its nearly perfect package selection, intelligent partitioning (that can create LVM and encrypted volumes for you), hardware preconfiguration, system cloning, and lots of other useful things that actually work. It also gave me a choice between Gnome and KDE within one disc, which gained it lots of points. It also has very nice system recovery that will check all essential files and replace them if you think something is broken. It will also repair grub easily and quickly, something you would otherwise need a livecd for anyway, that novice users could not do otherwise.

So you can see after that long rant, that there are things in SuSE that are custom and unique to it, many of them not present anywhere else. None of these things are proprietary and could be done by others, even Yast could be used by others as it was released as GPL by Novell.

So, I will not just abandon one of the best Linux systems available, nor will I immediately blacklist Novell for what is basically speculation at this point. Novell positioned the company as being highly dependent on Linux, Novell has more reason to stand by the community than it has to assist Microsoft, even with their agreement. And every day it seems Novell is looking more like the goodguy, particularly if they knew what would happen with those coupons, and now this EFF news makes me think they know more and have more planned than previously thought.

Re:Useless against Microsoft?

[that this is not und]

Some of you apparently have adopted FOSS to be against something.

Can't you let go of that anger?

Re:Microsoft CAN'T sue Novell

[killjoe]

MS won't sue anybody. They will transfer the patents to a third party. The third party will get investment from MS, MS executives, their buddies and others to the tune of a few million. The third party will sue.

The third party will not be developing any software so there is no chance of a counter infringement claim.
The third party will not be a signatory to any contracts and agreements MS signed with Sun, Novell or anybody else.

See how that works. The MS executives are sleazy dirtbags but they are not stupid.