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Sci-fi Writers Join War on Terror

yoyoq writes "Homeland Security is looking for suggestions from sci-fi writers. "Looking to prevent the next terrorist attack, the Homeland Security Department is tapping into the wild imaginations of a group of self-described "deviant" thinkers: science-fiction writers." Here's a suggestion: 9-11 could have been prevented with locks on the cockpit door."

25 of 793 comments (clear)

  1. Genius yoyoq!!! by spazoid12 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Here's a suggestion: 9-11 could have been prevented with locks on the cockpit door.

    Everyone's a snide little clever genius after the fact.

    Here's a suggestion: no, it could not have been prevented with locks on the cockpit door. It would have likely been a somewhat different attack, but it still would have happened.

    Meanwhile, people still catch colds despite having a supply of tissue in the house.

    1. Re:Genius yoyoq!!! by Ihlosi · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Didn't one airline (may have been Israeli) suggest that they actually build a bulkhead between the cockpit and the passenger compartment?



      And then, both pilots die from food poisoning and a whole plane full of retired pilots crashes since no once could actually get into the cockpit to land the darn thing.

    2. Re:Genius yoyoq!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      With knitting needles someone could knit an Afghan.

    3. Re:Genius yoyoq!!! by bolek_b · · Score: 5, Interesting
      I think unless there is a serious flaw on the side of airport security, the equipment advantage of the bad guys is not so big. The ONLY weapons which caused 911 were surprise and bad assumptions. The terrorists were allowed into cockpit with the assumption that it is just one of "routine hijackings" (scenario: land somewhere, demand something, negotiate, release hostages). The incorectness of the assumption was the moment of surprise and I truly believe that all pilots since then have to consider a 911 scenario as well.

      Let us now think about those executions of passengers. We may not prevent them, but we can reduce the casualties. Assume that there are approx. 6 bad guys armed with improvised cold weapons, therefore effective attack range of each member is cca 1 meter. What are tactical options of passengers?

      • They have vast numeric advantage. Say at least 50 men and don't forget about capabilities of many angry women.
      • They may create improvised weapons and shields as well. Trays, belts, blankets...
      • The cramped space onboard in my opinion favors the defense. The movement of attackers can be obstructed by improvised barricades (luggage)

      As long as the cockpit is not penetrated, the pilots may help with another effective countermeasures (but they would require a tactically skilled flight attendant coordinating the actions, or some kind of CCTV in the cabin):

      • Perform sudden maneuvers (rapid descent, steep banking) to incapacitate attackers; they won't probably wear belts during the incident
      • Change parameters of cabin environment: temperature, light, sound -- anything which may disrupt focus and coordination of the attacking group
      • Decompress the cabin and therefore restrict the movement of all passengers
      • I personally can think of merits of equipping flight attendants with tasers, sticky foam, pepper spray (or even stun grenades)

      In this mental exercise are some assumptions as well. The foremost is that only cold weapons are available to terrorists. Here we have to rely on the integrity and skill of airport personnel, but even with handguns I believe passengers with improvised shields would stand a chance. When it comes to bombs, well, bad luck, BUT: the bad guys can destroy the plane, but they will not control it.

  2. Re:Idea!!! by Holmwood · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Ha!

    Leaving aside the Terminator suggestion, the SF writer involvement in suggesting government policy isn't actually quite as crazy (or as unprecedented) as it sounds.

    One of the requirements for this group is that the individual has to have a PhD in a technical area (physics, engineering, etc.). These aren't just random writers off the street.

    As TFA notes, the 9/11 commission said the attacks were a result, in part, of the government's "failure of imagination". SF writers, unlike some beltway bureaucrats and politicians, aren't lacking in that, at least.

    As for precedent, both Jerry Pournelle and Larry Niven (coauthors of Footfall, and the Mote in God's Eye amongst other works) were a significant part of the push in the 80's to develop what is now National Missile Defense.

    (Of course, that may or may not be a good program, but it's certainly an example of educated SF writers influencing public policy).

    Holmwood

  3. Stupid by CmdrGravy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Here's an idea, why not stop wasting time on this sort of, headline grabbing, nonsense and sort out the existing agencies who are supposed to be responsible for this sort of thing so they can gain some actual intelligence about what the terrorists are actually planning and actually do something to stop that.

    If Homeland Security really are trying to think of more innovative solutions they might consider putting a stop to some of the activities the US is or has been involved in which tend to increase the number of available terrorists wanting to attack it. This might involve stopping the CIA kidnapping people and taking them off to be tortured, stop starting pointless wars and stop interfering in other countries in order to install regimes that suit your own purposes.

    1. Re:Stupid by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Are you nuts? That could actually work, how the heck do you want to push more laws towards the police state goal when there's no threat anymore?

      You'll never be a good politician, stay with your honest daytime job.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  4. They're going about this wrong by simong · · Score: 5, Funny

    They should get a science fiction writer to create a religion to create an alternative to Islam. Oh.

  5. am I the only one who is tired of terrorism? by misanthrope101 · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I'm sick of it taking up every waking moment of our intellectual lives. About 3000 people were killed in 9/11, and that was how many years ago? The flu kills about 15000 Americans each year. The flu. Let's not even go into cancer, heart disease, diabetes, and all the rest of the diseases that kill us off by the hundreds of thousands. Worldwide, cholera and other diseases that could be remedied by clean water kill vastly more than terrorism.

    Our sense of risk is so badly out of whack that we're just being ridiculous--it isn't even hysteria anymore, not after this many years. We're being suckered by a sensationalistic media working in cohorts with government, which always, always wants more power. I'd say it was shocking if I could even muster any surprize at how stupid we're being over this.

    1. Re:am I the only one who is tired of terrorism? by jmv · · Score: 5, Insightful

      About 3000 people were killed in 9/11, and that was how many years ago? The flu kills about 15000 Americans each year. The flu.

      Sure, but which one do you think works best when you want to restrict civic liberties?
      - We declare war on terrorism, so we need to tap everyone's phone in case they're terrorists.
      or
      - We declare war on flu, so we need to tap everyone's phone in case they've got the flu.

    2. Re:am I the only one who is tired of terrorism? by misanthrope101 · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Yes, that is my very objection. Would-be totalitarians have a ratchet-like mechanism. They want more power, so they wait for something to happen. Something happens, and they ratchet away a little on civil liberties. Now this new, lower, level of freedom becomes normal. Something else will happen eventually, so one more click of civil liberties are in the past. The new, yet lower, level becomes normal, and so on. Sometimes something big happens like 9/11, and we get a few whole turns of the wrench, so we end up with military tribunals, warrantless surveillance, torture, secret prisons, the whole bit.

      We don't go all the way to gulags, not right away, at least not on US soil, because people won't stand for it--yet. But once something else happens--and it always does, eventually, with or without an agent provocateur--the current level of freedom will seem excessive, and we get a few more clicks towards totalitarianism.

      There are already feelers out investigating exactly what conditions would have to exist for elections to be suspended and the current President to be just "in charge." Will it happen? No, I don't think it will, even in my most paranoid moods. The population won't stand for it--yet. But if there is a big attack, at least by someone with brown/olive skin, it would be easy to temporarily "put off" the election. An attack by a white supremacist or Christian Identity group wouldn't cut it (and probably would barely make the news), but one by Muslims would be center stage on all the networks, around the clock.

      Would we see death camps and Stalinesque tactics? No, I don't think so. Michael Moore and Rosie wouldn't be rounded up and imprisoned, much less shot, Ann Coulter's book sales notwithstanding. But a "unitary Executive" or whatever his lawyers are calling him this week, in charge of the entire federal government, exempted (de facto, if not de jure) from oversight or checks/balances by the legislative and judicial branches, who can suspend elections at will--what else do you really need? As long as there wasn't any slaughter or mass imprisonment, which there wouldn't be, would people really take to the streets for democracy? I wonder.

  6. Lemme see... by Moraelin · · Score: 5, Funny

    Lemme see...

    - train your stormtroopers so they can hit a man sized target at 100 ft distance

    - don't have your war droids depend on a centralized node that, when destroyed, would disable the whole army

    - make sure there are no vents leading directly to your death star's reactor, no matter how hard or unlikely to hit they are

    - fun as it may be, and sure as you may be that he's a complete bastard, don't send a father to torture his daughter and duel his son. They might end up working together against you. Also, if you've decided to replace him with his son, don't tell it to his face.

    - don't make yourself hated by whole populations in the first place. Destroying whole planets just to show you can, is actually pretty bad PR. It's bad for your tax income too. Noone will rise in rebellion or send suicide bombers against you for just treating them right and creating employment.

    - make sure the doors, especially prison doors or doors to critical command rooms, can't be opened by shooting the control panel. And generally, security means everything should fail in the way that is the least of a security problem. Losing electricity should cause the door bolts to lock the door (e.g., they're on springs that push them to the locked state, and you need current to pull them open), not unlock it.

    - for that matter, and according to the same principle, a damaged reactor should tend to shut down, not blow up. There's a reason 20'th century nuclear reactors need current to keep the moderator rods out, and get to shut down if they lose that current

    - control consoles don't have much of a reason to explode when the ship takes a hit in some point half a mile away. You may need that console again, and trained specialist officers that operate them are expensive to replace too

    - invest in some shielding technology, or at least armour. The Mitsubishi A6M Zero fared poorer than you'd think with only speed and maneuverability as its only defenses, and got shot by airplanes which could take a whole clip and keep flying. The TIE fighter is just repeating an existing mistake. Don't do it.

    And generally, read the evil overlord's list already.

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
  7. Forget the safe-bet experts by Nymz · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This group is a professinal think tank, those in the picture all look over 55, and to be a member you need a technical doctorate degree. How much of a "deviant" thinker or "rebel" can they really be? Aren't people that come up with the most inventive and "crazy" ideas a bit younger? I like the idea of employing think tanks, it shows initiative which is vital, but if they really want some results I think they're going to have to attract a different set of thinkers.

  8. So let me get this straight.. by Mystery00 · · Score: 5, Funny
    Homeland Security has invited sci-fi writers...to do their job for them?

    They might as well just post the discussion here.

    Here's my list:

    1. Equip every passenger with anti-terrorist lasers, because of their nature, terrorists will shoot themselves by accident.
    2. Shield the entire airplane with a time distortion device, except the cockpit, the passengers will be in "slow-time", so for them the plane would take off and land within seconds, not enough time for any terrorist to do anything.
    3. Mother-F%*$ING SNAKES, with mother-F@#(@ING LASERS on their heads put as security guards. No terrorist will dare.
    4. Virtual reality helmets for every passenger. Terrorists can act out their evil deeds to their hearts content in the safety of their own virtual plane. Of course every helmet will be recoded, and the terrorists apprehended upon landing.
    5. Replace bomb sniffing dogs with jedi knights. Explanation not required.
    --
    "we've got trenchcoats and bad attitudes" - John Constantine, HellBlazer
  9. If you don't like locks... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    How about a sane foreign policy? Like cockpit locks, it won't prevent all terrorist attacks, but less bullying and more actual diplomacy will help. It also wouldn't hurt to examine economic policies and disproportionate consumption of resources. America is a colonial power by fiat and as long as that is so, there will continue to be terrorists.

    The sci-fi angle is just silliness, in my opinion.

  10. "It WILL happen again" by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 5, Insightful

    People are totally innumerate and they overreact to rare, dramatic events. Everyone went nuts over the VT tragedy because it was "the worst school shooting in history" even though it only killed 30+ people. That's less than an average day's worth of gun deaths, or about six hours of car accidents. Now it's almost six years later and people are still overreacting to 9/11. I mean, 3000 deaths in one day and at the same place is impressive, but it still totals to just one month of car accidents. Think of how miserable we've made ourselves since then. Was it worth it?

    Asking "whether the next 9/11 can be prevented" is a dumb question to try to answer. It's like "how do we prevent the next car accident?" The sort of questions we should be asking sound cold and calculating, which is unfortunate because it keeps us from asking them:

    - Is it possible to reduce the number of terrorist attacks?
    - Is it possible to reduce the number of terrorist attacks to zero?
    - What is the probability per year that a terrorist act might affect you?
    - What is the probability per year that our self-flagellating counterterrorism efforts might affect you?
    - Since 9/11, how many additional hours of your life have been spent in airports?
    - How many years of your life have been spent as a soldier overseas?
    - How many years of your life have been lost as a soldier overseas?
    - Is terrorism even something most of us worry about personally anymore?

    It's unfortunate that we have created security monsters like TSA that simultaneously don't work and would be political suicide to get rid of.

    My own idea for "preventing the next VT tragedy" was to crack down on the manufacturers of doors, not the sellers of handguns. If it were illegal to manufacture doors with closed loops in their handles, the guy wouldn't have been able to chain the door shut.

  11. Hey Homeland Security! by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 5, Interesting
    I wonder if a science fiction writer could have come up with a story as screwed up as this one about the tuberculosis guy. A patient with tuberculosis flew to his wedding in Greece and while he was on his honeymoon in Italy he was notified by the CDC that his tuberculosis was a scary drug resistant strain, to avoid travel, and to turn himself in to Italian authorities to be quarantined. They also told him that he had been put on the no-fly list. But damn it, he's on his honeymoon. So what did he do? He flew from Prague to Montreal to successfully avoid the no-fly list, and then he drove across the border into New York State, with no-flying:

    Health officials said the man had been advised not to fly and knew he could expose others when he boarded the jets from Atlanta to Paris, and later from Prague to Montreal.
    The man, however, told the Atlanta Journal-Constitution that doctors didn't order him not to fly and only suggested he put off his long-planned wedding in Greece. He knew he had a form of tuberculosis and that it was resistant to first-line drugs, but he didn't realize it could be so dangerous, he said.
    "We headed off to Greece thinking everything's fine," said the man, who declined to be identified because of the stigma attached to his diagnosis.
    He flew to Paris on May 12 aboard Air France Flight 385. While in Europe, health authorities reached him with the news that further tests had revealed his TB was a rare, "extensively drug-resistant" form, far more dangerous than he knew. They ordered him into isolation, saying he should turn himself over to Italian officials.
    Instead, the man flew from Prague to Montreal on May 24 aboard Czech Air Flight 0104, then drove into the United States at Champlain, N.Y. He told the newspaper he was afraid that if he didn't get back to the U.S., he wouldn't get the treatment he needed to survive.
    ...
    The man told the Journal-Constitution he was in Rome during his honeymoon when the CDC notified him of the new tests and told him to turn himself in to Italian authorities to be isolated and be treated. The CDC told him he couldn't fly aboard commercial airliners.
    "I thought to myself: You're nuts. I wasn't going to do that. They told me I had been put on the no-fly list and my passport was flagged," the man said.
    He told the newspaper he and his wife decided to sneak back into the U.S. through Canada. He said he voluntarily went to a New York hospital, then was flown by the CDC to Atlanta.
    He is not facing prosecution, health officials said.
    "I'm a very well-educated, successful, intelligent person," he told the paper. "This is insane to me that I have an armed guard outside my door when I've cooperated with everything other than the whole solitary-confinement-in-Italy thing."
    So what was unfortunately revealed by this episode?
    • After six good years of hysteric overspending we still can't track down TB patients on their honeymoons much less bioterrorists
    • So we put patients with communicable diseases on our handy terrorist no-fly list
    • Handy travel tip for anyone on the no-fly list: fly Czech Air to Canada and enter the U.S. via rental car!
    • Tuberculosis causes dementia as is shown here by the illogical desire to get to the U.S. for medical treatment
  12. Re:Idea!!! by jimicus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Yes, but it's a lot easier to declare war on a concept that (more or less by definition) you can't beat by shooting at than it is to solve world hunger and abolish inequality over the entire planet.

    Or, to put it another way (for those who still think the US is doing well in Iraq): Think of terrorism like a vicious, unpredictable animal that wants to attack you. That's easy enough. But there's a twist: it gets stronger every time you shoot at it, bomb it or do anything violent towards it. Why are you still shooting at it?

  13. Re:Idea!!! by ocbwilg · · Score: 5, Insightful

    As TFA notes, the 9/11 commission said the attacks were a result, in part, of the government's "failure of imagination". SF writers, unlike some beltway bureaucrats and politicians, aren't lacking in that, at least.

    I think that comment very often gets taken out of context in order to justify exotic anti-terrorism schemes. It wasn't a "failure of imagination" in the sense that nobody in their wildest dreams thought that it could happen. I mean, let's face it, there's nothing far fetched about smuggling weapons onto a plane. That's why they have metal detectors at the gates. There's nothing far fetched about hijacking a plane. That's happened dozens, if not hundreds of times, in the past 30-40 years. There's nothing far-fetched about suicide bombers. They blow themselves up on a daily basis in the middle east. There's nothing far fetched about attacking the WTC. That had already happened once. The only "failure in imagination" is the failure to believe that terrorists would combine their most effective and well-known tactics into a single act.

    But the worst part is that the "failure of imagination" wasn't the reason that 9/11 happened. It was the failure to prevent people from smuggling weapons onto planes and hijacking them that allowed 9/11 to happen, and those are threats that have been around for a very long time.

    It's like Bruce Schneier has said many times, if you're spending time and effort in trying to prevent hollywood movie-style terrorist attacks instead of the routine, more effective (and much more likely) types of attacks, then you're probably wasting your time and resources. We're far more likely to end up with car bombs blowing up bridges or suicide bombers blowing themselves up at shopping malls than we are to end up with some exotic antrhax-infected mutant sharks with laserbeams. Hell, a handful of Beslan-style school attacks executed simultaneously across the US would probably have as big of an impact as 9/11 (look what happened with the relatively minor Virginia Tech incident), and it would probably be easier to implement too.

  14. Re:Idea!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "...But there's a twist: it gets stronger every time you shoot at it, bomb it or do anything violent towards it. Why are you still shooting at it?..."

    Very simple! Our jobs depend on there being a vicious animal that wants to attack us. This was fine during the 60s, 70s and 80s, and we had good job prospects. We got lots of established government funds.

    Then, in the 90s, our vicious animal suddenly died on us. We were stuck. We weren't just going to quietly retire. We tried to invent drug barons, organised crime, and minor foreign countries as a new vicious animal, but it wasn't the same.

    Now we have Islam! If we had been clever, we could have encouraged this ourselves, and paid Osama to crash those planes. We probably didn't, not because we wouldn't, but because we didn't have the foresight. But now it's happened, we're back in clover.

    And we're damn well not going to mess this one up. It's going to last a long time, just like the Russian animal. Have you noticed how we insist that speeches are made stressing that this willl be a 'long haul'? Too right. We're not stupid. Everyone told us that invading Iraq would make things worse. Why do you think we did it?

  15. Re:Idea!!! by Holmwood · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The way to improve security is to have well-trained guards in vulnerable places

    Well, this is certainly a good brute-force approach. The problem, of course, is that there are a lot of vulnerable places. Schools, shopping malls, stadia, airplanes, hospitals, large buildings, bridges, factories, food processing plants, ports, power plants, electrical grid, network control centers... and the list goes on. So that means millions of guards. Possibly tens of millions. Assuming you're actually going to protect vulnerable places with well-trained guards. In a modern technological densely-populated society, that's a lot of places to protect.

    Now if you want well-trained, highly competent guards, you're going to have to pay them more than the typical rent-a-cop rates. That'll be expensive. You'll have to arm them (with at least non-lethal weapons).

    Let's say you only need 2.5 million guards in North America. (well under 1% of the population). Of course, they only work 40 hours a week, so you're looking at just over 4 shifts. OK, 10 million guards. Well-trained, highly competent, so you'll probably have salaries of around 50k, and support infrastructure and overhead that doubles that. 100k/year. That's a trillion dollars a year.

    Is that really the best way to improve security? I can think of a lot of ways other than spending a trillion dollars on 'well trained guards in [all] vulnerable places'.

    And you'll have something much closer to a police state -- either they'll be government guards or corporate guards.

    And if you miss just one vulnerable place, then the approach fails. No, I'd rather apply intellect and thought to the problem rather than try and brute force it. I'm not sure the SF writers are the way to go, but I think it's a lot better than going the police state road and spending a trillion a year for the privilege.


    -Holmwood
  16. I've got mixed feelings on this.. by Nim82 · · Score: 5, Funny

    On one hand, I really don't know if it's a good idea for politicians to read books at all, let alone speak to writers. Here in the UK someone misread 1984 and took it to be a guide book promoting the merits of the police state, complete with instructions.

    On the the other hand though, if the writers really pushed the boat out and highlighted the - ever so real - danger of space based terrorism, who knows, NASA may get funding to build decent spacecraft (maybe even a Star Destroyer). Wouldn't want one of them little rascals redirecting an asteroid to hit N.Y. now would we?

  17. Diplomacy by gi.net · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm not a Sci-fi writer but here is what I suggest:

    • 1) Fire/Execute the morons of your Homeland Security Department for not understanding the problem and suggesting such stupid ideas.
    • 2) Fire/Execute your moronic president. Because of him and his father, your country is now the most hated country in the world.
    • 3) Try to play nice with all the countries in the world. I know this is difficult, but it is called "Diplomacy".

    Hello! We are not in a movie or a video game. We live in The Real World. People realy die, people realy suffer. We can't just rewind the movie or restart the game.

    If you don't want someone to hurt you, don't be his enemy.

  18. Re:Idea!!! by Charcharodon · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I love kid's skewed view of things. They think everything was invented just a few years ago. Now this "new vicious" animal, aka Islam terrorist/jihadists, that is part of the whole military-industrial conspiracy that the United States has just now "recently" provoked, has been on the warpath for over thirteen centuries now, that's 1300 years kidos. That's more than 1000 years longer than the US has even been around. Just because you, Hollywood, and 90% of Congress took till the late nineties to figure it out, doesn't make it new. Even the "current" mess in the middle east started before all of this during WW I after the British and the French divide up the spoils. Before them the Ottomans had it and before them the Persians. All through history, the locals have been rebelling and every single group in power has thrown troops at the problem. There is no conspiracy going on here. The only thing the US government is guilty of is ignoring history and being overly optimistic on the ability of Democracy/Republic style of governments being the solution to the problem.

  19. We need a change of philosophy... by Firethorn · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Personally, much of my solution to the problem involves a shift in our teaching process. For years we've taught 'let the professionals handle it'. IE the police.

    Even the police had been infected with this - during Columbine they secured a perimeter and waited for SWAT. This cost lives. Now standard procedure for many departments is that police go in when they get there. Officer Dan might not be SWAT, but he has a gun he should be competent with, and he's what's there, not what's going to take another 15 minutes(and possibly another 60 dead).

    We saw the ultimate failure at Viginia Tech - Students hid under desks and tried to flee - from a single assailant. Far fewer lives would have been lost if they'd done the same thing flight 93 had done - attacked back.

    I think that a cultural change to one of resistance, one that venerates the 'one who stood first' would be a good thing, in many ways.

    I believe there's a lot of truth to the saying: The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

    As for using scifi authers, I figure it's brainstorming, and a scifi author is generally both inventive and cheap. I can think of far worse things to spend ~30k on.

    --
    I don't read AC A human right