Slashdot Mirror


Second Life Arbitration Clause Unenforceable

NewYorkCountryLawyer writes "In a decision that could have far-reaching implications, a federal court in Pennsylvania has held that the California arbitration clause in the 'take it or leave it' clickwrap agreement on the Second Life website is unconscionable, and therefore unenforceable. In its decision (pdf) in Bragg v. Linden Research, Inc., No. 06-4925 (E.D. Pa. May 30, 2007), the Court concluded that the Second Life 'terms of service' seek to impose a one-sided dispute resolution scheme that tilts unfairly, 'in almost all situations,' in Second Life's favor. As a result, the case will stay in Pennsylvania federal court, instead of being transferred to an arbitration forum in California."

48 of 161 comments (clear)

  1. this seemed to be the important one for most games by jt418-93 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    lack of mutuality. The TOS gave Linden Research the right to terminate users "for any reason or no reason," the right to invoke several one-sided remedies to protect its own rights, and the right to modify the TOS at any time, including the arbitration provision.

    no more 'we can kill your account any time and you suck it' from online game companies. a lot of tos's just went invalid today. the shakeout from this will be huge in the pay for online gaming sector.

    --
    -.no
  2. Finally by Scrameustache · · Score: 2, Insightful

    IMO it was only a matter of time until a judge ruled that he had jurisdiction, EULAs be damned.

    --

    You can't take the sky from me...

    1. Re:Finally by KiahZero · · Score: 2, Informative

      no judge has ever ruled that they don't have juristiction. Not even close to true.
      --
      I'm a lawyer, but not yours. I wouldn't represent someone who thinks taking legal advice from Slashdot is a good idea.
    2. Re:Finally by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting
      exaggerated sweeping statement designed to show the general trend in decisions.

      Refs:
      • Spamhause (clearly no juristiction)
      • BetonSports (arrest for breaching an East Missouri law which tries to regulate activity in other countries)
      • NatWest3 (extradition for US crimes committed by British citizens, in Britain, against a British company, which the British legal system had declined to prosecute)
      • Jay Cohen (conviction for breaking US law by activities in Costa Rico)
      • Dmitry Sklyarov (Arrested and held for a month for violationg the DMCA whilst in Russia)
      • Hilton hotels subsiduary in Norway (Refused to do business with a Cuban delagation because, as a subsidiary of a US company it's illegal for them to do so, but in Norway it's illegal for them to refuse to do business for no reason other than nationality. The problem being that neither country would give up its juristiction to allow the hotel to comply with the other's laws.)
  3. Will this carry over to other online services? by iknownuttin · · Score: 2, Interesting
    The Second Life TOS was a take-it-or-leave-it clickwrap deal. The site operator had superior bargaining power over the plaintiff and, Judge Robreno found, there were no reasonable available market alternatives to Second Life.

    I wonder if this will be applied to other service on the web. It seams that every site has one of these agreements.

    --
    I prefer Flambe as apposed flamebait.
    1. Re:Will this carry over to other online services? by Zironic · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The problem would be that for most other services there are "reasonable available market alternatives". The thing I wonder though is that if all the companies have the same crappy TOS does that then mean that there isn't any reasonable option and all the TOS's get invalidated?

    2. Re:Will this carry over to other online services? by Original+Replica · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I have to wonder if the the Linden Dollar (and linden real estate) having a real world value weighs the need for a two sided arbitration more heavily. From the courts view (I imagine) the only thing at stake in a WoW arbitration is your $15 subscription fee, where as Second Life has some more significant monetary attachments. When there is real money involved the government is sure to follow.

      --
      We are all just people.
  4. now I gotta rewrite my EULA by ILuvRamen · · Score: 2, Funny

    Oh darn now I gotta rewrite my new program's EULA that says "if you don't like my program or it breaks your computer, go **** yourself." Lol I think it's good idea to force game makers actually responsible for stuff that happens in it and its customers well being.

    --
    Google's Super Secret Search Algorithm: SELECT @search_results FROM internet WHERE @search_results = 'good'
  5. Precedent? by evanbd · · Score: 3, Informative

    Unless I'm mistaken, this isn't an appeals court, and therefore doesn't actually set precedent. Other courts can still apply the same logic though.

    1. Re:Precedent? by Qzukk · · Score: 2, Informative

      It doesn't set a "real" precedent, but a lawyer can walk into a court in Texas and say "well, in this parallel case here, the decision was..." and the judge can either ignore it or not, at his discretion.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    2. Re:Precedent? by nomadic · · Score: 5, Informative

      Persuasive authority is a lot more useful than most people realize, especially federal court decisions.

    3. Re:Precedent? by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 4, Informative

      You are absolutely correct, nomadic. Those who say it's not a precedent do not understand how the common law system works.

      Judges are looking for reasoning that helps them to resolve the case that is before them. When they find that another judge has thought these issues through carefully, and has fashioned an eminently sensible and just conclusion, they will usually go for it.

      Of course it's easier for a judge if there's an appellate decision from his circuit telling him what he must do, but many, perhaps, most, litigated issues don't have the benefit of that kind of binding 'precedent'.... otherwise the issue would not even be in litigation. The lawyers would have read the binding precedent and followed it rather than frivolously ignore it.

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
  6. An eye on WoW by BobMcD · · Score: 4, Interesting


    I, for one, will be VERY interested to see if Blizzard responds to this in any way. Their policy is very much the same, as is their penchance for banning accounts and restricting access to real-world-value. (And remember, legality does not negate value in most cases. The IRS would have you pay income tax on your drug deals, if you follow the letter of the law.) So will the rules shift in favor of the end-user?

    Likewise, what other EULA's might fall victim to the 'no viable market alternative' argument? Windows comes to mind.

    This will surely die on appeal, but still, the possible implications are interesting.

    1. Re:An eye on WoW by AaxelB · · Score: 3, Funny

      Seems risky to say "no viable market alternative" to Windows on Slashdot, as arguable as that may be.

      It would be interesting if MS were attacked on those grounds, because the obvious (IA certainly NAL) defense is highlighting the viable market alternatives, which any monopolist is loath to do. Likewise, all those who would enjoy seeing MS lose would be caught in the Catch-22 of admitting that [insert favorite minority OS] is a non-viable alternative... I think this has solid potential for some entertaining threads here and there.

    2. Re:An eye on WoW by sampson7 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      One key element of the Judge's (very well written) opinion is that Second Life holds itself out as granting something akin to a traditional property right in the virtual world that it has created. Blizzard's policy, in contrast, has always been that it owns the virtual "property" and grants you a license to play with it.

      In other words, Second Life offers to let you buy a portion of its sandbox, while Blizzard merely lets you play in it. In one case, you can take your toys and go home since you own the toys, in the other, you cannot.

  7. Not a good decision, really by realmolo · · Score: 2, Interesting

    While I agree that the terms of the "click-through" license are fairly ridiculous...

    We ARE talking about a computer game, here. There is no *real* harm done to anyone if their account is terminated.

    And more importantly, the makers/administrators of giant multiplayer games (or worlds) kind of NEED to be able to terminate accounts at will. What if a player/group of players find a bug in the game and are able to use it to cheat? Or worse, use it to gain access to the personal computers of OTHER players without their permission? If they had to go through a whole "termination process", players could wreak havoc at will in those kinds of situations. And what could the admins of the servers do? They can't terminate the accounts. They can't just shut off the servers (because that would be the equivalent of terminating *everybody's* account). The only recourse it to quickly try and patch the software before the problem gets entirely out of hand. They do that anyway, really, but it's a lot harder when the entire server is going to hell because of the exploit.

    I won't even get into the whole idea of Second Life property being equivalent to "real" property. That's just ridiculous, and I expect this guy to lose his case because of that anyway.

    1. Re:Not a good decision, really by jt418-93 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      --]I won't even get into the whole idea of Second Life property being equivalent to "real" property. That's just ridiculous, and I expect this guy to lose his case because of that anyway.

      except linden has set up a direct dollar to linden exchange procedure, giving things a real world value. that is something they created themselves.

      as to other games, whether you agree or not, as long as someone will pay real money for something, it has value and is treated 'real'. they're going to tax your online income if it exceeds XXX$, it doesn't matter if you made it on ebay or selling 'the uber codpiece of erections' in some game. money is money, and where there is money, there are lawyers.

      --
      -.no
    2. Re:Not a good decision, really by cduffy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      We ARE talking about a computer game, here. There is no *real* harm done to anyone if their account is terminated.
      Not just any computer game, though -- a computer game where very large amounts of real-world money are exchanged. "Linden Dollars" are exchangeable for real ones; there are folks whose in-game activities constitute their entire income.
    3. Re:Not a good decision, really by Zironic · · Score: 3, Informative

      I think you missed what the judge decided.

      So far the judge has decided it is unreasonable to expect users to have to go through Arbitration court since it gives all the benefits to the company and all the downsides to the user.

      The case itself though will most likely be lost by the user since virtual property doesn't have any real value (if it had you would have to pay tax for it and I wouldn't want to do that).

      What I would like to see is that admins get to keep their ability to ban people for whatever reason but that users get a fair chance to defend themselves if they feel they became unjustly banned.

    4. Re:Not a good decision, really by ponos · · Score: 2, Insightful

      We ARE talking about a computer game, here. There is no *real* harm done to anyone if their account is terminated.

      To the extent that the people involved pay real money and to the extent that they feel genuinely frustrated about losing the account, the harm is very, very real. Using your logic, there is no harm in being publicly ridiculed or finding out that your girlfriend enjoyed a whole soccer team. An MMO can be an important social activity (in the sense that it involves people) and please realize that even if you (or me, for that matter) don't feel attached to their avatar or game "lives", other people do.

      P.
    5. Re:Not a good decision, really by hibiki_r · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's backwards: If it can be converted into money, it has real value. You can exchange US dollars for linden dollars and vice versa, by going through the developer itself!

      Besides, what does taxing have to do with anything? If I don't pay taxes on something that the tax code claims should be taxed you are not dealing with something with no value: what you have is tax evasion. Don't put the cart before the horse

    6. Re:Not a good decision, really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      Too many moderators here are modding down to register disagreement. Not what it's meant for.


      Correct, it is obviously for censorship.
    7. Re:Not a good decision, really by VidEdit · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "I think there's something illegal about creating your own tender or money in the US."

      It isn't about creating "your own legal tender," it is about creating something which has value. And in the case of Second Life, the value can be potentially bartered or sold.
      Keep in mind that stocks are virtual property, too, but you wouldn't want the NYSE kicking out of trading and keeping your stocks. Also, the IRS **is** looking into the possibility of taxing virtual property in games.

      "Kind of like how they put "no cash value" on coupons huh?"

      Coupons are **discounts** and are not at all comparable to Second Life property.

      --
  8. I hope this is challenged... by RyanFenton · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'd like this decision to be reinforced at every level of the American justice system: No matter what you force someone to sign, you can't take away their right to challenge you on a legal issue in a public court.

    America shouldn't be in the business of forcing people to obey the random "magical wishes' contained within every contract some jerk forces people to sign.

    The next thing I fear: We'll have to find a federal judge to sign our EULAs to authorize the active denial our own rights before we get to play a game. Either that, or a law passed by congress or a new ruling by the justice department to take away the rights they can't get by contract anymore.

    Ryan Fenton

    1. Re:I hope this is challenged... by Jarjarthejedi · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Forced to sign as in "Agree to this or waste the money you spent buying this game because you can't play unless you do and few companies accept returns with opened boxes, a prerequisite to seeing this screen."

      I don't know of any recourse you can take to get your money back in the case you don't agree with, say, Battlefield 2142's EULA. The moment you see that EULA none of the game stores I know of will let you refund as you opened the box and the company's just going to tell you to accept it.

      Force doesn't necessarily mean physical force. In many cases the most potent forces are the ones of the mind, a blackmailer doesn't hold a gun to your head but I don't think you'd say he's not forcing you to do something. In the same way many software companies hold your money ransom and demand you accept or lose it and get nothing back.

      This becomes irrelevant if you can returned the open game or find the EULA before opening the box but both are exceedingly rare where I live. You really have no good choices if you don't like the EULA, you can decline and lose your money or accept and lose your freedom. What a choice...

      --
      There are two kinds of fool One says 'This is old therefore good' Another says 'This is new therefore better'- Dean Ing
    2. Re:I hope this is challenged... by timeOday · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Forced to sign? Care to share which contracts you have been forced at gun point to sign?
      That argument is a sham. It relies on the assertion that a person could realistically read and understand the ridiculously complicated legal agreements that govern a hundred different things you do every day, from credit card agreements to software EULAs. That assertion is false. Pretending people could take the time and have the expertise to plow through multitudes of lengthy legal documents is just absurd. Business-to-individual contracts are obviously unequal. A business could no more realistically enter into a different contract with every individual, than a individual can enter into a different contract with every business - yet that's exactly what we require of individuals legally. The payoff is this allows businesses to dictated whatever terms they desire.

      Instead, there should be only a fixed set of end-user licenses from which businesses can choose. Or, at the very least, there should be a set of consumer protection clauses which apply to all end-user licenses, overriding whatever wishes the businesses may have.

    3. Re:I hope this is challenged... by Hal_Porter · · Score: 2, Insightful
      What happens if all the alternatives games have these terms? Or there are no alternative games?

      And example would be banking in the UK. Even thóugh in theory there are four or five highstreet banks and you can change between them, few people do because most banks have the same terms. For example they all decided to charge for cash withdrawals from other banks machine within days of each other. Similarly, when charges for cashing cheques increase, the increase is done by all the banks simultaneously. So it's not cynical to say that a cartel is operating and the government should start to check for unconscionable terms. Actually, the banks seem to understand this. If you write to them and complain the back down, and every so often they will make some change which is outrageously expensive and then one of them will buckle under public pressure. And then of course all the others do, which is just more evidence of a cartel.

      Now there's nothing except convenience stopping people using an offshore bank for example, but many of those are being bought up by high street banks or building societies.

      Actually, in an efficient capitalist country like the UK or the US, it is almost inevitable that this sort of thing will develop. State of the art business is about state of the art contracts, and those are the ones which benefit you most. Even Adam Smith knew about this

      People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices. It is impossible indeed to prevent such meetings, by any law which either could be executed, or would be consistent with liberty and justice. But though the law cannot hinder people of the same trade from sometimes assembling together, it ought to do nothing to facilitate such assemblies; much less to render them necessary.


      One of the things I liked about Sweden was that businesses have much less of a tendency towards unconscionable contract terms. But that's partly because it is a less capitalist place. It seems to me that you need capitalism but yout also need some cartel busting system of laws. Which the US seems to have, if this judgement is representative.
      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    4. Re:I hope this is challenged... by NMerriam · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Government is all about the organized and authorized use of violence, by definition.


      It is?

      I'm not sure how an "ultra-liberal" could hold the idea that the only purpose of government is to force people to do things with guns. I really am not sure in what way your professor could be ultra-liberal in a traditional political sense if he genuinely believed governments had no legitimate function -- political liberalism generally relies heavily on the notion of collective action for greater good. Are you sure he wasn't libertarian, most are socially very liberal but have a distrustful view of government (indeed I consider myself a libertarian of that stripe, just not the crazy Ayn Rand/von Mises kind).
      --
      Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
  9. Re:this seemed to be the important one for most ga by Liberaltarian · · Score: 4, Informative

    Sadly, no! The most that will happen, save it reaching the Supreme Court, is that the decision will apply to the users/companies in the 3rd Circuit court's jurisdiction alone.

    A majority of Federal courts have ruled that shrinkwrap licenses are in general unenforceable, though a minority have affirmed that it is indeed a legally-binding document.

    However, we're dealing with what's called a "clickwrap" license, which hasn't nearly the legal history that shrinkwrap licenses have. This decision, if upheld (I guarantee it's going to be appealed), is certainly an important early move in the right direction.

    --
    The Fight for Student Power on Campus: www.forstudentpower.org.
  10. The end of Microsoft's EULA? by Randym · · Score: 4, Insightful
    (a) Procedural Unconscionability: A contract or clause is procedurally unconscionable if it is a contract of adhesion. Comb, 218 F. Supp. 2d at 1172; Flores v. Transamerica HomeFirst, Inc., 113 Cal. Rptr. 2d 376, 381-82 (Ct. App. 2001). A contract of adhesion, in turn, is a "standardized contract, which, imposed and drafted by the party of superior bargaining strength, relegates to the subscribing party only the opportunity to adhere to the contract or reject it."

    The interesting thing about this is that is being adjudicated under *Federal* law, rather than state law, because it involves interstate commerce. Any EULA -- not just Microsoft's -- is now in jeopardy, because, according to this ruling, an EULA is -- by definition -- a "contract of adhesion".

    The next thing that they should go after is the concept that you don't actually *own* software that you purchase, you only "license" it. That could certainly be seen as a "contract of adhesion" ('procedurally unconscionable') imposed in a one-sided way and thus unlawful as well.

    --
    DNA is a Turing machine. You, however, being dynamic and emergent, are not.
    1. Re:The end of Microsoft's EULA? by taustin · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The next thing that they should go after is the concept that you don't actually *own* software that you purchase, you only "license" it.

      Adobe v. Softman is old news, and addressed exactly that, and was ruled in the correct way. In California, at least, if you A) pay a set amount, and B) get indefinite use of the software for that payment, it's a Sale of Goods, and the Right of First Sale (under Title 17) applies. That ruling is at least four or five years old now.

      This is why Microsoft is so desperate to get Windows and Office transferred over to a "pay per month or we turn it off" model.

  11. As the article says, you need both by unassimilatible · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The contract must be *both* procedurally (e.g., take-it-or-leave it, no alternatives, pre-printed) and substantively (e.g., unfair or hidden terms) unconscionable to be unenforceable. One is *not* enough - unfair isn't enough. The process must be unconscionable as well. BTW, arbitration clauses are presumed enforceable otherwise. Please do *not* rely on this as legal advice (but especially do *not* rely on Wikipedia for legal advice!). IAALBNYL (I Am A Lawyer But Not Your Lawyer).

    --
    Slashdot "libertarians": Small government for me, big government for those I disagree with. -1, I disagree with you
  12. Re:EULAs? by flyingfsck · · Score: 2, Informative

    As I wrote elsewhere, EULAs are mostly bull. Go and read your state's "Sale of Goods Act" - it should have one and that is pretty much all that matters. The reason is that a Sale is the default action. For a transaction to be a Lease, the parties have to jump through very specific hoops and EULAs seldom do. Therefore, If it Looks like a Sale, Quacks like a Sale and Flies like a Sale, then it is a Sale, meaning that you most likely OWN your copy of MS Windows outright, despite what MS likes to pretend for example and that is why you can resell the CDs on Ebay.

    --
    Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
  13. Re:A good decision - really by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The casinos have to deal with the Nevada State Gaming Control Board that regulates Nevada's gaming industry. Will we see some thing like that for on line games with real cash money in them?

  14. Don't forget the FAA! by CubanCorona · · Score: 3, Informative

    Remember, the Federal Arbitration Act strongly favors the enforceability of arbitration agreements. This case likely came out the way it did because the practical implications of arbitration (in this specific case) would result in an unjust bias favoring Second Life or would make dispute resolution prohibitively expensive. A classic case regarding the enforceability of arbitration clauses is Adkins v. Labor Ready, Inc., 303 F.3d 496 (4th Cir. 2002) (upholding an arbitration agreement in an employment contract where the plaintiff could not show unconscionability or failure of consideration). While the enforceability of clickwrap agreements is a contemporary and evolving area of contract law, I don't think the implications of this decision are very far-reaching. This case deals specifically with an arbitration clause and so is a unique situation. I haven't read the opinion, but I suspect that the court held specifically that the arbitration clause was unconscionable as opposed to the entire clickwrap agreement. That is certainly important to note--the agreement may still be otherwise enforceable notwithstanding the arbitration clause.

  15. The ruling is based on California law, though :-( by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    IANAL, but when I read the decision, they based large parts of the reasoning on California law (due to the license saying that it was governed by California law). So that may make it harder to apply in other states. I think they even mentioned some cases under another state (PA?) and said that that precedent didn't apply because of that clause putting it under CA law.

    I think this sets some precedent already, but also that it can end up in the Federal Court of Appeals, and eventually the Supreme Court if it gets to that. However, IANAL, so I'm not sure if this is even an appealable order (not every order is).

    One of the most interesting parts to me were the notion that this is a LOT less expensive than arbitration. Or, at least, the judge thought so. That seemed to be a major factor in the decision per my non-lawyer reading. Which is odd to me because I thought that companies liked binding arbitration because it was supposedly faster and cheaper. Or maybe they just don't end up paying out as much money, I dunno. I was kinda surprised that we have a federal case made out of $300 of virtual land, though. Couldn't that go to small claims? Or maybe their whole account was worth more, who knows?

    Now, unfortunately, I don't see this destroying EULAs so much as rewriting them, but I DID find it very interesting that, at least using the CA law they did, the contract might be unconscionable if you can't find anyone who doesn't give such harsh terms of service ("we can disconnect you if we feel like it", which is WAY too "standard" when you sign up for internet service). There was some other talk about that being except if there are "business realities" (which you either have to prove or describe in your contract), but I'd dearly LOVE to see the "CYA clause" as I call it stricken from ISP terms of service. Comcast with their "abuse of service" crap if you break their secret bandwidth limits on their "unlimited" service (by which they allegedly mean "always on", not "without limit").

    I wonder if anyone will retain a lawyer and become the test case for that one?

  16. The difference doesn't matter by rewt66 · · Score: 4, Informative

    IANAL.

    But the judge didn't rule it unenforceable because there was no law stating that clickwrap agreements were valid. He ruled that the terms were so one-sided that it was "unconscionable" (horribly one-sided), and therefore invalid. If the same terms were in a shrinkwrap license, or even a signed contract, the same terms would have had the same problem.

    The statement that it doesn't apply everywhere until upheld by the Supreme Court is, however, quite correct.

    1. Re:The difference doesn't matter by MilenCent · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Hm...

      Reading over the article a bit more, okay, let me amend my statement....

      The fact that Second Life has a kind of monopoly in virtual land sale seems to enter into it. So this might not be a strike against click-wrap licenses in general. Hmm.

    2. Re:The difference doesn't matter by asuffield · · Score: 2, Informative

      He ruled that the terms were so one-sided that it was "unconscionable" (horribly one-sided), and therefore invalid. If the same terms were in a shrinkwrap license, or even a signed contract, the same terms would have had the same problem.


      Obligatory proviso: while this is basically true, a signed contract may be valid anyway - if it can be shown that the party who loses out to the contract was fully aware of this at the time when they signed it, that the terms of the contract were negotiated by both parties, and they were not under any form of duress, then any contract is valid no matter how unconscionable. Licenses or contracts are only rejected in this manner when one party failed to understand the implications of the contract (and "would not have signed it if they had known") or when the terms were dictated by one party alone ("contract of adhesion", which is normal for clickwrap and shrinkwrap, but unusual for a signed contract).

      There are some rules which apply to all contracts, but this isn't one of them. Be careful what you sign. For an important example, you can't often play this card for your job contract.
    3. Re:The difference doesn't matter by Thing+1 · · Score: 3, Funny

      IANAL.

      Please people, please: use IMNAL. We're not interested in your bedroom behavior.

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    4. Re:The difference doesn't matter by smoker2 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Please people, please: use IMNAL. We're not interested in your bedroom behavior.
      Actually, for most of the posts I see, IMANAL would be more accurate !
    5. Re:The difference doesn't matter by 56ker · · Score: 2, Funny

      Well not entirely a monopoly on virtual land sales, I think there's someone who sells people title deeds to bits of the moon.

  17. Re:A good decision - really by Mr2001 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Many non-material items are legally real property. Drug formulae, music, video game software, and others are ideas. Those are not "legally real property". Copyrights and patents themselves can, in some cases, be considered property, but the formulas, music, software, etc. that are covered by copyright or patents are not a form of property. You cannot own an idea or a number, but you can patent or copyright it.

    People deserve to own their ideas and make money with them. No, not necessarily. They deserve to be compensated for the work they do, but that doesn't have to mean legal monopolies on ideas or information: I get compensated for the work I do, and like most people, my job doesn't have any special legal protection. All I need is an agreement between my boss and myself that if I do X amount of work, I'll receive Y dollars. If I don't think that's enough, I have the option to stop working for him and find someone else who's willing to pay my asking price, or to enter another line of work, or to lower my expectations and settle for Y dollars.

    Similarly, if an artist or musician wants to get paid for painting or recording, he can find someone who'll agree to pay him for it. If he wants $10,000 to make a painting, and someone is willing to pay him $8000, he has the same options: accept the lower offer, look for another customer, or enter another line of work where customers are willing to pay more. What he doesn't need or deserve, however, is the option to make his painting for free, plaster copies of it all over walls and galleries, and then force anyone who looks at it or makes their own copy to pay him $10,000. That's just a way to avoid honest negotiations.
    --
    Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
  18. Re:this seemed to be the important one for most ga by mr_matticus · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What world are you living in where a majority of jurisdictions have ruled shrinkwrap licenses "generally unenforceable"?! Name just one jurisdiction in the US to have done so.

  19. Wrong wrong wrong by unassimilatible · · Score: 3, Informative
    The interesting thing about this is that is being adjudicated under *Federal* law, rather than state law, because it involves interstate commerce.


    No, federal district court jurisdiction is granted either via diversity jurisdiction (plaintiffs and defendants from different states in suits exceeding $75K) or federal question jurisdiction. In this case, since the court is obviously using state law, diversity is how they got into court (and of course the judge finding CA arbitration unenforceable). Pennsylvania plaintiff, California defendant, = federal court diversity jurisdiction using state substantive law (but federal civil procedure and evidence).

    The next thing that they should go after is the concept that you don't actually *own* software that you purchase, you only "license" it. That could certainly be seen as a "contract of adhesion" ('procedurally unconscionable') imposed in a one-sided way and thus unlawful as well.



    Also wrong! Read the case or the article, for a contract to be unenforceable, it must be both procedurally and substantively unconscionable. Contracts of adhesion are enforceable if they do not contain grossly unfair terms. And software licenses are generally considered enforceable (assuming no grossly unfair terms - read the article or case!).

    --
    Slashdot "libertarians": Small government for me, big government for those I disagree with. -1, I disagree with you
  20. Yes, but by unassimilatible · · Score: 2, Informative

    unilateral "cancel at any time" clauses can be illusory (a promise that isn't real, therefore non-binding, therefore no contract). What is generally required is a minimum time before they can cancel (e.g., "after 30 days") or notice requirement (e.g., "on 5 days notice"). A contract which allowed you to cancel or alter it 5 minutes after it was signed (or clicked) would not be a contract; it would be illusory.

    --
    Slashdot "libertarians": Small government for me, big government for those I disagree with. -1, I disagree with you
  21. You need both, but you already have one... by nickovs · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Yes, you need both Procedural and Substantive Unconscionability, but the implication of the statements in the judgement is that (based on prior case law) you already have one of the two in a click-through EULA. In III.C.1.(a) on page 27 it states (citations removed):

    "A contract or clause is procedurally unconscionable if it is a contract of adhesion. A contract of adhesion, in turn, is a "standardized contract, which, imposed and drafted by the party of superior bargaining strength, relegates to the subscribing party only the opportunity to adhere to the contract or reject it." Under California law, "the critical factor in procedural unconscionability analysis is the manner in which the contract or the disputed clause was presented and negotiated." "When the weaker party is presented the clause and told to 'take it or leave it' without the opportunity for meaningful negotiation, oppression, and therefore procedural unconscionability, are present."

    This implies that Procedural Unconscionability is present in any and all click-through licenses, since they are drawn up by the party with the stronger position and presented in a "take it or leave it" manner. Given that a click-through license is implicitly Procedural Unconscionable any term that is Substantive Unconscionability is unenforceable.

    --
    If intelligent life is too complex to evolve on its own, who designed God?
  22. Arbitration by Stormcrow309 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Several state judicial systems have already found that out-of-state arbitration limits due process. Alltel got hit hard for this and their 'consumer pays all arbitration fees' clause a couple of years back. I don't think arbitration will last much longer, especially since many businesses are moving to mediation for b2b stuff.

    --

    In God we trust, all others require data.