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Church Threatens Legal Action Over Sony Game

An anonymous reader writes "The Church of England is threatening legal action against Sony over the game Resistance: Fall of Man. The game features a shootout in Manchester Cathedral, and the Church claims that Sony did not ask permission to use the interior of the Cathedral in the game. The Bishop of Manchester called the game 'highly irresponsible' due to the history of gun crime in the city. Sony denies the charge — a spokesman said 'We believe we have sought and received all permissions necessary for the creation of the game.'"

27 of 244 comments (clear)

  1. bang bang by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    First off, I am Christian and do not care for Sony.

    The game is art. There should be no legal repercussions for Sony choosing to tell a story a certain way. If you do not like it, do not buy it. Protest if you want, so others know you do not like it. But, every adult should be free to choose for themselves if shooting in a church is inappropriate in a game.

    1. Re:bang bang by Teifion · · Score: 2, Insightful

      First off, I am Christian and do not care for Sony.

      The game is art. There should be no legal repercussions for Sony choosing to tell a story a certain way. If you do not like it, do not buy it. Protest if you want, so others know you do not like it. But, every adult should be free to choose for themselves if shooting in a church is inappropriate in a game. I also am a Christian but I'm pretty Neutral on the matter of Sony. I agree with the following comment

      The Bishop of Manchester called the game 'highly irresponsible' due to the history of gun crime in the city. But feel that there is no harm in using a Church building in a game, for a start, it is just a Building and secondly, if the game isn't saying that Christianity promotes gun crime then I fail to see how it's a problem for the Church.
      --
      My blog - This link wouldn't be interesting even if we set fire to
    2. Re:bang bang by Jarjarthejedi · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You have a point however, unless I'm mistaken, a Church is private property and there are some laws having to deal with using private property items without the owners permission in a video/game.

      Either way Sony really should have asked for permission, if only to be kind. You can be sure that, if any game included a model of, say, the White House, without permission it would be attacked venomously. Why should a church be denied that? I'm not saying that Sony should pull the game back or that churches should have special rights in cases like this, only that, if you're going to use a famous religious site in your violent FPS, you should at least ask for permission.

      - Plays lots of FPSes and is religious, also doesn't care for Sony, has nothing against violent ones, recognizes that many people, and even more religious people, do have something against them.

      --
      There are two kinds of fool One says 'This is old therefore good' Another says 'This is new therefore better'- Dean Ing
    3. Re:bang bang by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      How old is this church? Odds are it's imagery is public domain. Besides, it's the Lord's house, let him go down to the courthouse and file Himself if he cares so much.

    4. Re:bang bang by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The church is private property. That doesn't necessarily mean that every mention or depiction of the church follows it.

      And also, no, you don't need permission from anyone to use a model of the White House. The best imaginable argument against it would be security concerns (which wouldn't apply for the church), but that argument falls flat: the interior organization of the White House isn't a secret. Hell, the thing's been there for over two hundred years. I suppose that you could argue that it is in bad taste, but that's not a good enough reason to force people to stop. (And besides, what if it was the FPS version of Bad Dudes?)

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    5. Re:bang bang by Original+Replica · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The Bishop of Manchester called the game 'highly irresponsible' due to the history of gun crime in the city.

      I call the Church of England "highly irresponsible" due to the history of gun crime in the city. After all which entity has had a greater influence ove rthe citizens of Manchester, this video game which has been out of less than a year, or the Church of England which traces roots back to the 3rd century at least. Maybe the Bishop should tend to his violent flock instead of abdicating responsiblity to a video game.

      --
      We are all just people.
    6. Re:bang bang by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Either way Sony really should have asked for permission, if only to be kind. You can be sure that, if any game included a model of, say, the White House, without permission it would be attacked venomously.

      Let's explore that a bit. Is a video game different from a movie? Did 20th Century Fox get permission to simulate the destruction of the White House for Independence Day? I think the White House was "destroyed" in Amerika too, but I don't remember any legal wrangling. One key difference is that the White House is government property, and government property is often not given intellectual property rights in the same way private enterprise might. Intellectual property of a centuries-old building basically doesn't exist that I'm aware.

      I can see why people don't like it and might complain about it, but it sounds to me that the validity of a legal case is shaky. I think it's possible to derive the interior of a building from photographs without any sort of invasive acquisition methods, and as far as I know, in most cases, the photo belongs to the photographer.

    7. Re:bang bang by blahplusplus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Either way Sony really should have asked for permission, if only to be kind. You can be sure that, if any game included a model of, say, the White House, without permission it would be attacked venomously."

      Wrong games *have modelled the whitehouse* and many other landmarks (or pieces of them) without reprocussions, even if only in parts or in 2D, take the old 2D game "Bad dudes" for instance, the whitehoue was featured there. I think people take the whole "private (and/or) intellectual property" law regarding monuments and such way too seriously.

      Are we goingto start to sue for road modelling textures, some random pictures of someones house or cities downtown skyscrapers and trees? At some point the whole property thing is out of control, private property is there for convenience of solving complex problems, it's not there to abuse the public with silly crap like this.

    8. Re:bang bang by unapersson · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What if you asked God and he said it was OK? I'm pretty sure you can use the interiors without restriction then. I'm not sure even the supreme court can override one of his decisions.

    9. Re:bang bang by ultranova · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Let me put this in language even you may understand: We did not build our church - our school - as a stage set for your video game. You do not have the legal or the moral right to use this setting without our permission.

      According to Wikipedia, the church was built in the Middle Ages. Given this, I find it highly unlikely that you had anything to do with it, and are simply trying to assert rights to other people's hard work - hardly a moral thing to do.

      Besides, I find it highly likely that the original architecht has been dead for more than 70 years (or however long copyright has been extended at this point), and as such any and all copyrights to the church's design has long since ended, so would you please explain what legal monopoly of yours prevents anyone from making a model of the church for any reason ?

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    10. Re:bang bang by Tim+C · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Did 20th Century Fox get permission to simulate the destruction of the White House for Independence Day?

      I don't know. Did they? I actually wouldn't be at all surprised if they did run the idea past the White House press office.

      On the other hand though it doesn't really matter, as the White House is most definitely a public building. I suspect Manchester Cathedrel is actually owned by the church, and therefore private. (Remember that just because a building is open to the public, doesn't make it a public building - shops being the obvious example) Whether or not that gives the church the legal grounds to complain I don't know.

      I can see why people don't like it and might complain about it, but it sounds to me that the validity of a legal case is shaky.

      Fine, so they sue and lose. If this was the church against a private individual I might be a little more concerned, but it isn't, and Sony has plenty enough resources to defend itself. If nothing else, this might at least create precedence to guide people in similar situations in the future (whichever way it goes).

    11. Re:bang bang by sesshomaru · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Otherwise it appears that the Church has so little faith in their own message that they have to use a secular government to enforce their views.
      Ok, this is possibly a hard concept for an American to grasp, but the British government is not secular. The Church of England is essentially a branch of the British Government. Bishops of the Church get seats in the House of Lords (see Lords Spiritual. Here's more information, take special note of their finances (Church of England and this article on State Religion.)

      Now, I don't know about anyone else, but as an American schoolchild I was taught from an early age that this was wicked, evil and one of the main motivating factors for the American Revolution. Honestly, it's an alien concept over here. Imagine if George W. Bush were not just president but had as one of his titles "Defender of the Faith" as head of state. Note that in the U.S. we call parts of government "Departments" while in England they are called "Ministries."

      So, actually, Sony is in luck in this case. Th CoE is pretty decadent, and has to resort to suing in court like a common nobody, instead of just ordering the Sony people to be drawn and quartered for treason, blasphemy and whatever other crimes they could come up with.

      Penny for the Guy?

      Oh, and I really wonder if using an artistic recreation of a state building could ever be forbidden in the U. S. under the First Amendment... but England has no such Amendment or indeed, a Constitution.

      I leave you with this quote:

      The decapitated colossus reeled like a drunken giant; but it did not fall over. It recovered its balance by a miracle, and, no longer heeding its steps and with the camera that fired the Heat-Ray now rigidly upheld, it reeled swiftly upon Shepperton. The living intelligence, the Martian within the hood, was slain and splashed to the four winds of heaven, and the Thing was now but a mere intricate device of metal whirling to destruction. It drove along in a straight line, incapable of guidance. It struck the tower of Shepperton Church, smashing it down as the impact of a battering ram might have done, swerved aside, blundered on and collapsed with tremendous force into the river out of my sight. -- The War of the Worlds by Herbert George Wells
      What say you, Bishop of Manchester, to Wells depiction of violence in English churches in The War of the Worlds? It's the same damned story, basically....
      --
      "MIT betrayed all of its basic principles."
    12. Re:bang bang by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      This is completely irrelevant. Just like Sony holds us fully responsible when we distribute their works, they themselves are fully responsible for what they distribute even when they have outsourced production to someone else.

      Really, "we did not make it, we bought it" gives them no protection at all. They distribute it so it should be considered their product.
      Just as with the rootkit.

  2. Just to get a word in... by GammaKitsune · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is one article in which I'll be irritated if someone tries to make it a religious thing. IANAC (I am not a Christian), but this is really no different than any other, non-Christian group complaining about the use of their building for an ostensibly violent purpose. Whether or not it's right for this Church to go after Sony, it would be nice if this weren't turned into a religious issue.

    I'm not holding my breath, though.

    --
    Gamertag: WyleType
  3. Re:This is a major news story in the UK by CriminalNerd · · Score: 2, Insightful

    They could go for copyright infringement. They seem to be the norm these days.

    (Of course I'm joking, but something tells me that they might consider it seriously).

  4. Wrong on so many counts... by Aphrika · · Score: 1, Insightful

    There are a number of problems here that Sony just haven't thought about:

    1. Why use a real church?
    2. Why use a real church in a city with a high gun crime problem?
    3 .Why use a real church in a city with a high gun crime problem, in a FPS?
    4. Why use a real church in a city with a high gun crime problem, in a FPS, without asking permission?

    Obviously they just aren't thinking straight. I'm quite amazed that a big company like Sony just didn't think things through. What did they expect to happen? The church to welcome virtual gunmen through their doors with open arms after they've spent so many years dealing with real gun-related deaths?

    Get real Sony, we all know exactly how it would've played out if a game went on a spree round your offices...

    1. Re:Wrong on so many counts... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Speaking as a level designer, I'd be surprised if such a lawsuit ultimately had any legal merit. I'm sure Resistance: Fall of Man is not the first piece of art to depict the interior of the church. As a matter of fact, here's a photograph of the interior of this church released under the GNU Free Documentation License.

      Did the photographer need permission to take that photograph? Does he/she have the right to release it under such a license?

      Being under the GNU Free Documentation License, I could lay an image of a gun over this photograph and redistribute it. I could go a step further and depict science-fiction gun violence in this photograph. My god, we could go even a step further and depict a completely senseless killing of the clergy, then redistribute for all to see. I'm sure the Church of England would dislike such a depiction far more than Resistance: Fall of Man.

      Is there a U.K. law violated in any of that? Can Sony really be brought before a court because someone doesn't like one of their works? That'd be really interesting. Hell that would make S.O.E. one hell of a legal liability.

      Oh well. Either way I'm going to go get an exterior photo released under a free license and photoshop an "I (heart) Evolution" sign on their lawn.

  5. Private property? by Dekortage · · Score: 2, Insightful

    FTA:

    David Wilson, a Sony spokesman, told The Times newspaper: "It is game-created footage, it is not video or photography. "It is entertainment, like Doctor Who or any other science fiction. It is not based on reality at all. Throughout the whole process we have sought permission where necessary."

    Manchester Cathedral is private property, correct? It belongs to the Church of England? If so, and if you were going to show the interior of Manchester Cathedral (or any private property) in Doctor Who (or any television show or movie) I believe you have to seek permission of the property owner. Of course, if Sony were publishing a novel about it, I doubt the Church of England would care much -- but Sony has specifically aligned the game with video-based works rather than written fiction.

    --
    $nice = $webHosting + $domainNames + $sslCerts
  6. Re:Better submission by ls+-la · · Score: 2, Insightful

    In Blair's UK, only outlaws have guns! And is that a bad thing?
    How many school shootings have you heard about in the US? And how many school shootings have you heard of in countries where handguns are banned?
  7. How did Sony "use" the Cathedral? by Daneboy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I haven't played R:FoM, but it's a FPS game, yes? In which you run around a virtual world shooting various critters and such, yes? The key word here is "virtual" -- Unless Sony went through the Cathedral with a camcorder and actually used real footage of the real cathedral in the game, I don't see how they're "using" the cathedral for anything at all.

    Would it be illegal if I drew a picture of the inside of the cathedral and posted it online? How 'bout if I carefully modelled in in 3D? And did an animated walkthrough?

    The Church of England may own the Cathedral, but do they own the rights to the *appearance* of the Cathedral?

    --
    /* "Specialization is for insects." -Heinlein */
    1. Re:How did Sony "use" the Cathedral? by hazee · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You try using some imagery from the latest Spiderman film then, and see how far you get...

      I hope the church really sticks it to Sony on this one. Sony, along with all the other movie studios, has made such a huge fuss about "image rights" and the like, that they really deserve to have the book thrown at them when they decide they shouldn't be bound by the same rules.

      The hypocrisy stinks.

  8. Re:Better submission by jx100 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Spoken like someone without a true understanding of the U.S. Second Amendment.

    Any government has the potential for corruption on a level that can't be undone through avenues made legal by itself. The entire point of the second amendment is to give the society at large the ability to fix this. Our founding fathers recognized this and added the second amendment to the bill of rights for this very reason. They had, in fact, *just* done this with the then-sovereign government.

  9. Re:Better submission by LKM · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This is such a tired, stupid cliché that I do not even know anymore whether people who say it are serious.

    Anyway, since most gun injuries are inflicted by non-outlaws, only outlaws - and the police, obviously - having guns would probably be a good thing.

  10. Mother Teresa by The+Rizz · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There would not have been a Mother Teresa. That could only have been a good thing, considering that she and her order often blackmailed starving children ("convert to Catholicism and abandon your heathen ways or we will give you no food"). Also, she is known to have taken millions of dollars donated to her order and used almost none of it to help the poor; she instead used it to build a whole bunch of nunneries bearing her name and various other religious buildings.

    I am all for real charities and people who actually want to help others, but Mother Teresa purposely expanded suffering and poverty while at the same time hoarding money in order to spend it in ways that glorified herself and her organization. I really wish people would try to find a real altruist to glorify rather than that frightening bitch of a woman.
    1. Re:Mother Teresa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      You make this ridiculous claim about Mother Teresa and the only piece of evidence you could find was a goddamn Penn and Teller episode on Youtube? And this is despite and mountain of evidence that she actually did help all those people. This woman devotes her entire life to helping these people and these two stupid assholes enjoying a life of wealth and modest celebrity think they've got her scam all figured out.

      She has this funeral procession in Calcutta with tens of thousands of mourners. But you're trying to tell me the people she supposedly abused felt compelled to mourn her anyway.

      And before you remark about her comments on suffering I think you should inform yourself first. She wasn't saying it was good for people to suffer. A big part of what she was doing was trying to alleviate that suffering. However, Christians believe that a life of suffering and denial makes getting into heaven easier. This belief, at it's core, is no different than what most other religions believe. Only and idiot, however, would believe that she somehow relished suffering in the people she cared for.

      I wonder if you're so free with your criticism when it comes to other groups who actually do real harm to people. You're willing to believe anything anyone tells you provided it jives with your own opinions. Truth be damned!

  11. Re:As a Freethinking Christian by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Mother Teresa was an evil bitch. It's well documented that she thought ill people SHOULD suffer as a means of getting closer to Christ. And she took money from murderers.

    Come on, you're clearly twisting her beliefs. Mother Theresa was a Catholic(shock, horror), thus, she thought that, as a part of the divinely created world, suffering is not meaningless.

    You seem to imply that this meant that she intentionally allowed people to suffer or even caused suffering to "bring people closer to Christ". (If this is "very well documented", please demonstrate.)

    It's very well documented that she helped a lot of suffering people. The fact that she thought their suffering had a religious significance doesn't make her evil.
  12. Re:As a Freethinking Christian by vertinox · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The world would be without a lot of hospitals and institutions of higher learning.

    Oh, so you mean the ancient Romans and Greeks never did anything like that?

    Actually, from my understanding one of the reasons for the Dark Ages was because of Christianity. Not until the Church lost its dominance did things such as higher education, scientific, and modern medicine emerge during the renaissance.

    And to be fair, they had a great helping hand from the Roman and Greek texts that the Church had simply stashed away ignored for almost a 1,000 years.

    And to also be fair, I'm strictly talking about the Catholic church central powers and authority. It is interesting to note that the re-emergence of science and higher learning did coincide with the Protestant reformation and that Islamic scholars did also acheive similar results in their eras way before this.

    I'm just saying Christianity isn't required for the things you talk of as example of ancient Romans and Greeks.

    Oh... And let's not forget ancient China!

    --
    "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
    -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)