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Kodak Unveils Brighter CMOS Color Filters

brownsteve writes "Eastman Kodak Co. has unveiled what it says are 'next-generation color filter patterns' designed to more than double the light sensitivity of CMOS or CCD image sensors used in camera phones or digital still cameras. The new color filter system is a departure from the widely used standard Bayer pattern — an arrangement of red, green and blue pixels — also created by Kodak. While building on the Bayer pattern, the new technology adds a 'fourth pixel, which has no pigment on top,' said Michael DeLuca, market segment manager responsible for image sensor solutions at Eastman Kodak. Such 'transparent' pixels — sensitive to all visible wavelengths — are designed to absorb light. DeLuca claimed the invention is 'the next milestone' in digital photography, likening its significance to ISO 400 color film introduced in the mid-1980's."

184 comments

  1. Sacrifices color resolution: is it worth it? by chennes · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Of course, you achieve this increased light sensitivity at the expense of losing 1/4 of your color resolution. Maybe if you want the increased sensitivity it might make more sense to pick up something like the Canon 1D Mk III, which, at least according to Ken Rockwell, gives great results all the way up to ISO 6400. I'd hate to lose 1/4 of my color resolution *all of the time* to get the added sensitivity that I only need for a small fraction of the shots I take.

    1. Re:Sacrifices color resolution: is it worth it? by lurker412 · · Score: 4, Informative

      I'm not sure you would lose "color resolution" at all. The current RGB scheme combines color and luminosity. Under the new scheme, those could be separated, much the way LAB color space works. Potentially, this could give you a greater dynamic range, which would address the biggest weakness of current digital cameras. Of course, the proof will be in the execution. If it yields more noise in the process, then it won't be worth a damn. We'll see.

    2. Re:Sacrifices color resolution: is it worth it? by MrFlibbs · · Score: 1

      Exactly. The potential loss in color resolution is a pretty steep price for two stops worth of sensitivity. There may be a niche market for this with sports or astro photos, but most users shoot most of their shots with available lighting or fill flash and don't need the extra sensitivity.

      This might make a nice second camera for the serious user, but most folks would be better off with the current technology.

    3. Re:Sacrifices color resolution: is it worth it? by Animaether · · Score: 4, Informative

      You don't really lose a quarter of your color resolution... you lose half the resolution in a specific wavelength, the one normally corresponding to green (though how this is mapped to RG or GB (rarely purely G) is up to the demosaicing algorithm. On the up side, you gain light sensitivity by a factor more than two; assume the filters were perfect and light only existed in the wavelengths they let through. Then any single filtered cell only receives 33% of the stimulans. An unfiltered cell would get the full 100%.

      This additional intensity resolution is, of course, only at a quarter of that of the resolution a full bayer... but nobody ever said you had to discard the intensity measured by the red/green/blue filtered bits; in fact, you can't, or you can't very well determine color at all.

      It's actually a pretty obvious setup (it has likenings to the RGBe storage format.. though that has much larger range, it also mostly separates color (RGB) and intensity (exponent)) - can't wait to see it patented - and makes me wonder why the Bayer pattern was the choice in the first place. I certainly know why they picked green as the go-to channel (human visual sensitivity, blabla), and why the there have to be groups of 4 in the first place (cells are square/rectangular.. design a triangular sensor cell, somebody - quick! gimme that hexagonal sensor).. but why just now Kodak pops this up..

    4. Re:Sacrifices color resolution: is it worth it? by mrbluze · · Score: 1

      'd hate to lose 1/4 of my color resolution *all of the time* to get the added sensitivity that I only need for a small fraction of the shots I take.

      To be honest, I wouldn't mind. If you buy a 10 megapixel camera that isn't a good quality SLR, you won't be getting much better quality than a 6 megapixel camera since the bottleneck for quality becomes the lens.


      All it would really mean is that we absorb a delay in the relentless rise in pixel density for a dramatic improvement in colour depth.


      This technology will sell, there's no doubt about it.

      --
      Do it yourself, because no one else will do it yourself. [beta blockade 10-17 Feb]
    5. Re:Sacrifices color resolution: is it worth it? by art6217 · · Score: 1

      That't not so simple. You lose the resolution of green, but increase the resolution of red and blue. For example, if there is only blue light, then the ccd matrix has half the resolution both vertically and horizontally. With a white pixel, algorithms mith guess that there is only blue, as red and green sensors do not get any light, and then use the white sensor to increase the resolution of blue. It's a simple case, but smart heuristic algorithms might get a lot in various ways from the white pixel, also to increase color resolution. Also, with the new high resolution CCD, the problem of resolution itself often gets less important.

    6. Re:Sacrifices color resolution: is it worth it? by clodney · · Score: 1

      I had something of the same reaction to your remark about a patent. This is a fairly good example of how hard the "obviousness" test of a patent can be to judge. When you hear about this, it is something of a "Doh!" moment, and you think how obvious it is. (I was immediately reminded of the chroma subsampling options in JPEG compression, which use different sampling rates for color and luminosity).

      But the fact is that hundreds of millions of digital cameras have been made in an intensely competitive R&D environment, and only now is this innovation coming up. That argues that it is indeed non-obvious, or someone would have come up with it sooner.

      Yet if this becomes popular and patented, many people are going to think it was obvious all along.

    7. Re:Sacrifices color resolution: is it worth it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The question is, did it take large amounts of money to develop this idea? If the idea couldn't be patented, would the enormously competitive camera industry refuse to invest in the new more effective kind of sensors? The answer to both question is no, and thus the ability to patent something like this that is obvious in hindsight is not useful to society.

    8. Re:Sacrifices color resolution: is it worth it? by Spy+Hunter · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well considering that the human eye does much the same thing (rods vs cones), I'd say yes.

      --
      main(c,r){for(r=32;r;) printf(++c>31?c=!r--,"\n":c<r?" ":~c&r?" `":" #");}
    9. Re:Sacrifices color resolution: is it worth it? by locofungus · · Score: 1

      Depends when the idea was originally.

      I've certainly discussed this idea with people at least a year ago completely independent of any research done at Kodak. Four colour sensors, CYGM and RGBE, have been around for years.

      Other ideas that have been played with are non regular (fractal) CFAs.

      An obvious further extension to what Kodak has done (assuming it isn't what they have done) is to have something like RYYB (bayer but with G replaced with Luminance). This ought to capture still more light. Infact, as CCDs tend to be more sensitive towards the red end of the spectrum RYYG might be even better or even Yellow-Magenta-Luminance.

      All of these add processing complexity (and might add too much noise).

      Tim.

      --
      God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = -@B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.
    10. Re:Sacrifices color resolution: is it worth it? by mikael · · Score: 1

      According to this article, Kodak have added four new clear cells to the existing four cell Bayer pattern. Somehow this resolves to a 4x4 repeat pattern.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    11. Re:Sacrifices color resolution: is it worth it? by locofungus · · Score: 2, Informative

      Infact, a quick google turns up http://www.patentgenius.com/patent/6704046.html - which just mentions RGBW and points out that all three of the RGB values will have to be interpolated at the white pixel.

      Tim.

      --
      God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = -@B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.
    12. Re:Sacrifices color resolution: is it worth it? by Ed+Avis · · Score: 1

      Still, the human eye is more sensitive to changes in light intensity (luminance) than to changes in colour (chrominance), so it may be worthwhile trading off some colour resolution that you won't notice for some light sensitivity that you will. Remember that with existing colour digital cameras you need software to interpolate and guess colours for pixels because of the alternating RGB pattern on the sensor. The guessing job won't be that much more difficult if there are a few clear pixels in there as well.

      --
      -- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
    13. Re:Sacrifices color resolution: is it worth it? by locofungus · · Score: 1

      Ah. Ok. They've presumably done something like

      RGRY
      GBYB
      RYRG
      YBGB

      Tim.

      --
      God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = -@B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.
    14. Re:Sacrifices color resolution: is it worth it? by jafac · · Score: 1

      Any comments from experienced digital photographers on the Carl Zeiss lenses? Sony seems to have an exclusive deal; but when I buy a camera with the "Carl Zeiss" name stamped on the lens - what am I getting, exactly? I know that Carl Zeiss had a great reputation in the 1970's - but I'm not sure if that means anything today. . . (fwiw, I have 3 Sony cameras; including the dsc-h5, which seems to take pretty good pictures despite lack of RAW capability).

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    15. Re:Sacrifices color resolution: is it worth it? by dfghjk · · Score: 0, Troll

      It's plainly obvious that color resolution is sacrificed. Dynamic range, if anything, is reduced due to the mismatch in sensitivity between the pixels. Color can be removed from luminosity, but luminosity cannot be seperated from color. In short, I'd suggest you not pursue this as a career.

    16. Re:Sacrifices color resolution: is it worth it? by fyngyrz · · Score: 1
      Color can be removed from luminosity, but luminosity cannot be seperated from color.

      That is incorrect. You'd know it if you simply thought about it; a Bayer filter (in most digital cameras today) only captures color information through red, green and blue filters. The color image that results can be converted into a luma version by a simple fractional scaling factor applied to each channel, then summed. Basically, put the image into any decent image processor, select it, and apply the software's luma extraction filter to it, and you'll have a luma image. Since this is a fact, it is obvious that you can separate luma from color. From the human perception angle, your ability to perceive brightness is separate from your ability to perceive color (due to rods and cones.) Because the sensing mechanisms are separate, it is reasonable to say that any particular color also has an independent luminosity. Knowing this, you could simply map every color against a luminosity scale, and again, extraction of luma from full bandwidth color would be trivial.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    17. Re:Sacrifices color resolution: is it worth it? by nanosquid · · Score: 1

      The color image that results can be converted into a luma version by a simple fractional scaling factor applied to each channel, then summed

      That is not how raw conversion works; if it did, your 8M pixel camera would only give 2M pixel images. Actual raw conversion essentially uses heuristics to reconstruct the actual luminance at each sensor site, even though that information cannot be reconstructed in general from the measurements.

    18. Re:Sacrifices color resolution: is it worth it? by nanosquid · · Score: 1

      The potential loss in color resolution is a pretty steep price for two stops worth of sensitivity

      First, there is likely no significant "loss in color resolution"; the resolution you're getting in the color channels right now is already only based on heuristics.

      Second, even if there were a loss of resolution in the color channels, you wouldn't notice it: you can't see high frequencies in the color channels.

    19. Re:Sacrifices color resolution: is it worth it? by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      I write these filters for a living. Please don't try to tell me how they work.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    20. Re:Sacrifices color resolution: is it worth it? by nanosquid · · Score: 1
      I write these filters for a living. Please don't try to tell me how they work.

      I'm curious: you talking about the RAW conversion software in Blackbeltsystem's package or something else?

      In any case, whatever you write for a living, your descriptions contain several mistakes.

      Here's a simple summary of the key steps for converting raw images to RGB images (http://gauss.ffii.org/PatentView/EP1262917):

      There are a number of conventional demosaicing methods to convert a raw data image into a color image. Three main common categories of demosaicing methods include interpolation-based methods, feature-based methods, and Bayesian methods. The interpolation-based demosaicing methods use simple interpolation formulas to interpolate the color planes separately. The interpolation-based demosaicing methods include bi-linear methods, band-limited interpolation methods using sinc() functions, spline interpolation methods, and the like. The feature-based demosaicing methods examine local features of a given image at the pixel level, and then interpolate the image accordingly. The basic idea of the feature-based methods is to avoid interpolating across edges of features. The Bayesian methods attempt to find the most probable color image, given the data, by assuming some prior knowledge of the image structure.


      Note that interpolation or prediction are crucial steps; you cannot do reasonable demosaicing with only "fractional scaling" and "summing".

      Your description of human color vision is also bogus:

      From the human perception angle, your ability to perceive brightness is separate from your ability to perceive color (due to rods and cones.) Because the sensing mechanisms are separate, it is reasonable to say that any particular color also has an independent luminosity.


      There are several things wrong with that:
      • "Rods and cones" aren't used for color vision, only cones are.
      • There is no "separate" sensing mechanism for "brightness"; anything your eye determines about "brightness" in a scene is derived from the signals coming from the rods (night vision) or cones (day vision). In fact, the human eye/brain solves a problem very much like raw conversion.
      • Human vision is not based on absolute "brightness" or "color" at all, but on brightness and color differences.
      • A light source of any particular "color" has a corresponding "luminosity", but the "luminosity" measured by a single R, G, or B pixel does not let you predict the correct gray level value at that point.
      • Luma, luminance, luminosity, and brightness are distinct, well-defined concepts, yet you keep using them almost interchangeably. For example, "luma" is a weighted sum of gamma corrected components (a useless concept in the context of this discussion), while "luminance" is a weighted sum of linear components.

    21. Re:Sacrifices color resolution: is it worth it? by NeMon'ess · · Score: 1

      You're forgetting about most indoor environments, especially at night. Parties, clubs, and pubs. All would benefit from low light performance that wasn't horribly grainy.

    22. Re:Sacrifices color resolution: is it worth it? by Animaether · · Score: 1

      go fig :) Thanks!

    23. Re:Sacrifices color resolution: is it worth it? by dfghjk · · Score: 1

      I can't help it if you misunderstand me.

      You can detect luminosity without detecting color, but you cannot detect color without detecting luminosity, that is unless you have a spectrometer.

      "From the human perception angle, your ability to perceive brightness is separate from your ability to perceive color (due to rods and cones.)"

      Both rods and cones detect luminosity. Luminosity is inherently measured regardless of the sensor.

  2. The proof is in the pudding by 2.7182 · · Score: 1

    It is hard to evaluate this from the press release. People have tried all sorts of variations, including ditching the whole pattern thing for true color (Carver Mead) and the results are about the same as other cameras.

    1. Re:The proof is in the pudding by cheesecake23 · · Score: 1

      The proof may be in the pudding, but a quick look and sniff gives us some hints:

      Compared to the standard Bayer sensor, 50% of single-color pixels are replaced by clear pixels, which see the whole RGB spectrum, so they are about 3 times more sensitive to light. So the whole array should be 0.5 + 0.5*3 = 2 times more sensitive to light, or one stop if we speak photographish.

      Kodak claims 2x-4x increased sensitivity (1-2 stops) but it's hard to see where this "extra" increase would come from.

      The cost is reduced color resolution, but this is relatively unimportant since the human eye mainly sees detail in terms of luminosity, not color. (Incidentally, this is the main insight behind the efficient compression of JPEGs.)

    2. Re:The proof is in the pudding by ptcheezer · · Score: 1

      Here's the pudding from zdnet's gallery. Looks great to me and I can't wait to get a camera with this technology. I just bought a new camera and I'm almost sorry I did now.

      http://content.zdnet.com/2346-9595_22-88313.html

    3. Re:The proof is in the pudding by 2.7182 · · Score: 1

      Actually the main insight behind the compression of jpgs iis the Fourier transform.

    4. Re:The proof is in the pudding by NeMon'ess · · Score: 1

      OK, but why did they clump the red and blue together that way? The best advantage I can see is for reducing noise when the gain is boosted on the signal. Otherwise it seems like better color accuracy would be achieved by separating the red and blue like this.

  3. too little, too late? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    too little too late from Kodak?

    I dont know how this will play with the market leaders for DSLR (canon/nikon) or even for medium and large format back (phaseone) etc.

    I cant really see Canon using Kodak sensors

    1. Re:too little, too late? by FunkyELF · · Score: 1

      I agree that its too little too late. To me...the bayer filter should be gone altogether since the foveon x3 sensor came out. If other camera makers would use this technology the price would come down.

    2. Re:too little, too late? by Zarhan · · Score: 2, Informative

      Only problem is that Foveon (at least current implementation) is crap. The three colors have too much overlap and they also aren't very sensitive, either. Fine, you get rid of some of the bayer artifacts, but in return you lose most of the extreme colors and lots of sensitivity.

    3. Re:too little, too late? by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      Foveon implementation is crap? What have you been smoking?

      The SD14 is a 4.7 megapixel camera. It is doing very well when compared against 8 megapixel Bayer-based cameras. If that doesn't validate the technology, I don't know what does. Perhaps you're confused by the claim that it is a "14.1 megapixel" camera. That's just marketing hype, and should be ignored right out of the gate. There are 4.7 million sensor sites, meaning, spatially distinct sensors. It's a 4.7 MP sensor, period. But considered as such, it is a great technology, and as the link I just gave you shows, the color accuracy, image resolution and quality are all top notch.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    4. Re:too little, too late? by Zarhan · · Score: 1

      Try photographing something that is in the range of more than one color and heavily saturated (like a yellowish-orangish sunset). The matrixing algorithm that is used to reconstruct the original color from the sensor tries its best, but cannot really match a normal Bayer-based dSLR at the moment (either Canon or Nikon).

      The spatial resolution is of course better.

    5. Re:too little, too late? by fyngyrz · · Score: 1
      Try photographing something that is in the range of more than one color and heavily saturated (like a yellowish-orangish sunset). The matrixing algorithm that is used to reconstruct the original color from the sensor tries its best, but cannot really match a normal Bayer-based dSLR at the moment (either Canon or Nikon).

      That isn't what these third-party test results and these images, and this one, and these, and these, and these indicate. Plenty of good yellows and oranges, including saturated ones, in those examples. Sorry, I just don't think you're up to date on what they're doing with this technology.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
  4. Will by Archades54 · · Score: 1

    Canon release the eos-30d equiv or eos-350d/400d equiv with this sensor within the next year? If so I'd wait to purchase :)

    --
    If your neighbours roof is flying past your window, you know it's cyclone season.
    1. Re:Will by SpinyNorman · · Score: 1

      Canon release the eos-30d equiv or eos-350d/400d equiv with this sensor within the next year? If so I'd wait to purchase :)

      The article says that sensors based on this will start to become available early next year, but I'd guess it may be a little longer until camera manufactures have tuned their on-camera image processing algorithms (and off-camera RAW algorithms) for the production sensors.

      The larger format sensor cameras like the EOS 30D/350D (both are APS-C) don't suffer so much in low light anyway since they already receive more light per pixel since the pixels are larger. This is the main reason why DSLRs do so much better in low light (other than having the option for expensive wide aperture lenses). It's really the point and shoots with their pathetically small image sensors that need this.

    2. Re:Will by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OMFG, this sounds like all the bitchy whine fest "photography" forums.

      Equipment doesn't matter, period. A great photographer can take better pictures with a $4 disposable camera than a snap-shooter with a $10,000 camera ANY DAY.

    3. Re:Will by Sparks23 · · Score: 1

      Even still, you can get a fair amount of noise if, say, you're doing concert photography or other no-flash-allowed low-light photography with a DSLR. My EOS 400D is a great camera, but it's a pain to shoot ISO 1600 with it unless I either have my f/1.8 wide-aperture lens on there or plan to spend a lot of time in post removing noise artifacts. My friend's EOS 5D, unsurprisingly, handles low-light shots far better than my 400D does, no doubt in part because of its own sensor being larger than that on the 400D.

      So there's still room for improvement in DSLR sensors... though as to whether or not this is some magical miracle solution to low-light photography remains to be seen. :)

      --
      --Rachel
    4. Re:Will by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Canon builds thier own sensors...so unless they decide to move to Kodak, or pay for that technology....i doubt it

  5. Calling all patent trolls! by R2.0 · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Kodak is going to patent this, and use it themselves and license it out to other companies (hard the story last night on NPR). For those who would abolish the patent system, why would this not be a "good" patent?

    Please discuss.

    --
    "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
    1. Re:Calling all patent trolls! by Looshi · · Score: 1

      There's nothing wrong with this patent. This is a useful innovation and Kodak should be awarded for their R&D efforts.

      It is when companies begin to patent software that the problems arise. You can't patent a recipe, how different is software code from a recipe? Both are list of instructions. That is where the patent system fails. When ebay has to defend their "Buy-It-Now" feature, which is nothing more than html and some server scripts, then we have a problem.

    2. Re:Calling all patent trolls! by J.R.+Random · · Score: 1

      I don't object to all patents. I do object to software patents, because I see no evidence that the bribe of a 17 or 20 year monopoly is in any way necessary to spur innovation in the software industry. Given that there are always dead weight losses associated with monopolies it is best not to create them unless there is strong positive evidence that the benefits outweight the costs.

      In other industries, such as the chip industry where you have to blow billions of dollars on each new fab, patent monopolies on new processes and devices may be the only way to make the risks and expenses worthwhile.

    3. Re:Calling all patent trolls! by UbuntuDupe · · Score: 1

      Hm, not too bad. The troll I was thinking about for this story would be more like:

      "Hey, I think the headline should be, 'Kodak announces latest attempt to maintain relevance after failing in its attempts to keep a captive market via Bill Cosby and Japan-bashing.'"

      But yours is good too.

      *attaching this hypothetical troll to one already labled as such to keep it away from productive discussion*

    4. Re:Calling all patent trolls! by dangitman · · Score: 1

      You can't patent a recipe, how different is software code from a recipe?

      You can't eat software.

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
  6. Fifth? by tom17 · · Score: 1

    The summary says the extra pixel is a 4th, but surely it is a 5th. 2*Green 1*Red 1*Blue and then the new one.

    1. Re:Fifth? by tom17 · · Score: 1

      Actually it would be 5th 6th 7th and 8th as there is one new pixel for each of the existing pixels.

    2. Re:Fifth? by Archades54 · · Score: 1

      Far as I can tell it's arranged in 4's, with only 1 green 1 red 1 blue 1 Transparent to detect all light and base the light intensity etc off that with the others.

      --
      If your neighbours roof is flying past your window, you know it's cyclone season.
    3. Re:Fifth? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Evidently not, because they're dropping the bayer pattern in favour of this one. The second green is now going to be replaced by a clear pixel, designed to capture more light.

    4. Re:Fifth? by altoz · · Score: 1

      That wouldn't work unless you have some sort of hex pattern. Bayer is based on a square pattern, so most likely, it's something like 1xRed, 1xGreen, 1xBlue, 1xClear per 4.

    5. Re:Fifth? by Goaway · · Score: 1

      Uh, no.

    6. Re:Fifth? by Goaway · · Score: 1

      Wait, uh, yes.

  7. we had 400 speed reversal film in the 50s by swschrad · · Score: 3, Interesting

    and color in the 70s.

    I refer you to Tri-X b/w, and to Fujichrome 400 around 1972. a really nicely balanced and warm film. if you pushed it to 1200, you could peel the grains off the base and go bowling with them, but the picture held up remarkably well on the small screen. it was THE go-to magic film for 16mm newsfilm when it came out.

    if that was a negative film, it would have been asa 800 with little more grain than the "fast" 125 color film of the time.

    --
    if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
    1. Re:we had 400 speed reversal film in the 50s by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A little later example but one of the first commercially available slide file films with a speed greater than 400ASA.
      I have a 20x24 print on my office wall that was cibachrome printed from a slide taken on Anschrome 500ASA slide film.
      The picture is of Pink Floyd appearing at Brighton Dome (UK) on 20th Jan 1972 at the 'Scream' in Careful with that Axe Eugene and a magnesium flare went off behing the stage to illuminate the whole Auditorium.
      The Camera was a Pracktika LTL with a 50mm F2.8 Lens.
      So, the marketing droids have got it wrong again...

      IMHO, the relative density of the CCD device pixels will need to increase to compensate for the inclusion of this 4th (or 5th) sensor without the filter. I guess that the full frame CCD cameras might be the first to use this new filter arrangement.

      Will Fuji counter this with an new design of their Hexagonal sensor CCD? I wonder.
      The takeup of this will depend upon their licensing deals.
      I'm no supporter of Software Patents but where you spend lots of money in research like this then why shouldn't you reap some monetary rewards? At least it is not an 'obvious' patent like some that have been applied for (and granted) in the past two years.

      (I use the term CCD as a generic term to cover CCD's and CMOS chips)

    2. Re:we had 400 speed reversal film in the 50s by leehwtsohg · · Score: 1

      Will Fuji counter this with an new design of their Hexagonal sensor CCD? I wonder. Why is it called hexagonal? Every picture I see of the sensor seems octagonal. Hexagonal would be indeed better, and you wouldn't need to have 2 greens for 1 red and 1 blue. But pictures seem to indicate that fuji still has an extra green. Do they also have a real hexagonal design?
    3. Re:we had 400 speed reversal film in the 50s by Art+Deco · · Score: 1

      I caught the bit about 400 speed color film in the mid-80's. I distinctly remember shooting Kodacolor 400 in '79. I looked it up and Kodacolor 400 came out in '77.

    4. Re:we had 400 speed reversal film in the 50s by bandy · · Score: 1

      I came in here to make the same point. Before 1985, I was shooting Fujicolor 1600 in "very dark" situations, sans flash.

      --
      "You might as well get your son a ticket to hell as give him a five string banjo." -unknown minister
    5. Re:we had 400 speed reversal film in the 50s by rapidweather · · Score: 1
      I always liked 400 speed film, it gave reasonable results while still being fast. There was always the idea that you could capture "moving" subjects with that, or do some night time pictures, which I did in the '50's.

      The really cool stuff was below 100 speed, so you could get nice detail, like in this photograph of Marilyn Monroe. I don't know what speed this film was, probably was not 400 speed. Marilyn photographed well regardless, as she always did.

      Favorite Marilyn Quote: I've been on a calendar, but never on time.

    6. Re:we had 400 speed reversal film in the 50s by dangitman · · Score: 1

      Since when was Tri-X a reversal film? It's a negative film. The Fujichrome you refer to is the reversal film. So, your heading is incorrect.

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
  8. Depends on the application by grahamsz · · Score: 1

    I already feel that my digital rebels have remarkably low noise sensors and give me better results that shooting Velvia 50 and scanning. Still I usually carry a tripod and shoot at virtually never shoot at high ISO so it doesn't really affect me.

    I expect this will have more value in cellphone cameras. Typically the noise floor goes up when the sensor shrinks, and increasing the brightness without increasing noise would be a massive boon for most cellphone photographers.

    1. Re:Depends on the application by EtherMonkey · · Score: 1

      I have two words for you: Sports Photography

      --
      --- A man with a briefcase can steal more money, than any man with a gun. [Don Henley]
    2. Re:Depends on the application by timeOday · · Score: 1

      I already feel that my digital rebels have remarkably low noise sensors and give me better results that shooting Velvia 50 and scanning. Still I usually carry a tripod and shoot at virtually never shoot at high ISO so it doesn't really affect me.
      Digital is already better than film, but the fact is, DSLR owners continue to pay good money for big, heavy lenses precisely to obtain more sensitivity, and vibration reduction to cope with longer-than-ideal shutter speeds.

      Cameras aren't "good enough" until I can shoot fast action at high magnification in near dark with a compact camera. Then I will be happy.

  9. Probably not intended for SLRs by MonorailCat · · Score: 3, Insightful

    As you state, DSLRs already have fairly decent sensitivity, so this is not likely to be a good compromise for them.

    Modern 'compact' digital cameras, however, which stuff 7-12 megapixels on 1/1.8" and 1/2.5" sensors (smaller than your fingernail) could benifit enormously from this. These sensors are already past the diffraction limit of most of the lenses, so a drop in color resolution may not be too damaging (the eye being less sensitive to color resolution, than luminance anyway). Kodak is claiming a 1-2 stop increase in sensitivity, which would be a great benefit to anyone using a compact inside, or in other poor light. (I have yet to own a camera that performs well above ISO 200)

    As with all such tech announcements the proof is in the pudding, and until we can compare full size samples to conventional bayer sensors, its hard to tell if this is the next big thing or not.

    1. Re:Probably not intended for SLRs by Dogtanian · · Score: 1

      As with all such tech announcements the proof is in the pudding What you probably meant was "the proof of the pudding is in the eating".
      --
      "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
  10. Transparent AND absorbs light? by Burb · · Score: 2, Funny

    That's a neat trick. I wonder how they can do that?

    --

    1. Re:Transparent AND absorbs light? by Chris+Pimlott · · Score: 1

      The filter is transparent. The sensor behind it 'absorbs' light.

    2. Re:Transparent AND absorbs light? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's a neat trick. I wonder how they can do that?

      "Transparent" doesn't mean "completely invisible". Take a window that's been in the sun for a while, for example. The glass is transparent, but it's also hot due to light (energy) absorption.
    3. Re:Transparent AND absorbs light? by vondo · · Score: 1

      The pixel is not transparent, the filter on top of it is. If a sensor has 4M pixels, the current design has 1M of them with little red filters on them, 1M with little blue filters, and 2M with green (our eyes are most sensitive to green). This new design, as I understand it, just replaces half of the green filters with "clear" filters. The sensor underneath is sensitive to whatever light makes it through.

    4. Re:Transparent AND absorbs light? by tbfee · · Score: 1

      The filter's not transparent either (if it was you wouldn't need a filter, right?) It's transparent in optical wavelengths. The sensor still has some sensitivity in IR that needs to be filtered out.

      --
      It's not the heat, it's the futility.
    5. Re:Transparent AND absorbs light? by JamesP · · Score: 1

      And that is why the invisible man/woman is BLIND.

      --
      how long until /. fixes commenting on Chrome?
    6. Re:Transparent AND absorbs light? by Goaway · · Score: 1

      By not being literal-minded nerds, and by being able to understand meaning from context, probably.

  11. Nothing too revolutionary by bsundhei · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This is really not anything new to the image industry, just a new application. There is already the CMYK colorspace for printers, which is effectively an RGB + black to get deeper colors. I don't see this as really revolutionary, as much as "Can't believe this hasn't been done yet." Though, at least they admitted this too :) My biggest hope for this is to reduce per pixel noise by being able to reference the fourth plane, but I doubt they will get there for a while, they still have to work out the color conversions.

    1. Re:Nothing too revolutionary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      hang on though. If you add R+G+B you get white and if you add C+Y+M+K you get black. So the process is completely different. One is additive one is subtractive.

      so i dont get your point.

  12. CMOS version of Rods and cones by G4from128k · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Kodak has rediscovered what evolution found millions of years ago -- design a dual system such as the rods and cones of the biological eye. The average human eye has about 120 million sensitive, panchromatic rods and only 6 or 7 million color-sensitive cones (many in the central fovea). The brain merges the limited amounts of color information with the larger volume of B/W image data to paint color into the image that we think we see.

    --
    Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
    1. Re:CMOS version of Rods and cones by imadork · · Score: 1
      Kodak has rediscovered what evolution found millions of years ago....

      And I'll bet they've already filed a patent on it....

    2. Re:CMOS version of Rods and cones by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Kodak has rediscovered what God found six thousand years ago

      Fixed that for you. : )

    3. Re:CMOS version of Rods and cones by SpinyNorman · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The old/current Bayer pattern (also a Kodak "invention") also reflects the lower resolution of our vision to color vs brightness (as does JPEG and YUV based image compression - UV can be downsampled compared to Y with little loss in perceived resolution). In the Bayer pattern each block of 2x2 pixels have 2 with green filters, described as luminance-sensitive in the original patent, and one each of red and blue filter described as chrominance sensitive.

      The new Kodak filter pattern is still taking advantage of our better resolution for luminance, but is implementing it better by basing it on color filters (or the lack of them) that let more light through, thereby increasining signal-to-noise (especially needed in low-light conditions).

      I'm not sure that this new filter pattern is optimal though. As another poster noted, R/G/B filters are too narrow and cut out a lot of light. You could still capture the color information with two broader filters more directly corresponding to the U & V of the YUV color space.

    4. Re:CMOS version of Rods and cones by dfghjk · · Score: 1

      Except that rods and cones are entirely different mechanisms and the kodak design uses identical underlying pixels. They are, in reality, not analogous at all.

  13. Sounds just like the new LCD display by mbourgon · · Score: 1

    There was a story here a few days ago about them adding a "clear" pixel element to allow more light through. Sounds like the same premise.

    --
    "Sometimes a woman is a kind of religion, she can save your soul & set you free from all your sins" - Bad Examples
  14. why are sensors in RGB instead of CMY? by leehwtsohg · · Score: 2, Interesting
    The gain here seems to come from the fact that they use a white sensor (i.e. unfiltered), which sees ~3 times more light.

    They divide each sensor of the regular bayer pattern to 4, half white, half color. This way one can also report a 4-fold increase in the number of pixels, without really increasing the resolution. (which actually will be a boon for digital photography, since no one needs the current resolution anyway, because the optics doesn't keep up, but a megapixel race is on...)

    But does anyone know why sensors use RGB and not CMY? a Cyan filter would let green and blue through, but keep red out, instead of blocking two parts of the visible spectrum for each pixel. This way, by simply switching color space, the camera becomes twice as sensitive to light. I.e. instead of

    R G
    G B
    use

    M C
    C Y
    or something like that. One could even combine the two methods, and use white pixels, to gain a slight further increase in light sensitivity (from 8/12 to 10/12). Is there any reason that current cameras use RGB?
    1. Re:why are sensors in RGB instead of CMY? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      CMYK filters were actually tried:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CYGM_filter

      They don't actually provide any practical benefit over RGB in terms of noise, if your final output is meant to be RGB, due to the mathematics of the color space transformation. And your final output is generally RGB, for digital photography; even if you print, the intermediate formats are generally RGB, and cheap consumer printers take input in RGB, not CMYK.

    2. Re:why are sensors in RGB instead of CMY? by Zarhan · · Score: 1

      Canon G1 had a CMY pattern if I recall correctly. This also meant that it didn't suffer from the nice IR artifact (take a picture of hot charcoal and you actually get reddish image, lots of other cameras see it as purple...)

    3. Re:why are sensors in RGB instead of CMY? by leehwtsohg · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Thank you for the link! That is very interesting. So CMY was already tried in cameras. Once you have a digital pixel, it pretty much doesn't matter if you represent it in RGB or CMY - just a transform of the same information.
      But I don't understand why you don't have less noise. The wikipedia article mentions higher dynamic range. Isn't it true that twice as much light falls on each sensor, so you gain a stop, and because of that have less noise (because you need the shutter open for only half the time)? Or is it somehow that when you get noise, it is in two channels, and thus you have the same amount of noise?

    4. Re:why are sensors in RGB instead of CMY? by slagheap · · Score: 2, Informative

      But does anyone know why sensors use RGB and not CMY? a Cyan filter would let green and blue through, but keep red out, instead of blocking two parts of the visible spectrum for each pixel. This way, by simply switching color space, the camera becomes twice as sensitive to light.

      Let me just turn that around for you...

      A Green filter would let cyan and and yellow through, but keep Magenta out, instead of blocking two parts of the visible spectrum for each pixel.

      The color spaces are complimentary. Each color in one space is halfway between two colors in the complimentary space.

      ___R___
      _Y___M_
      _G___B_
      ___C___

      A filter of any color will, in one color-space allow one color and block the other two, while in the other color space allow two colors, and block one.

      RGB is the color space usually used for additive color (i.e. light -- More/different light means brighter). A sensor is capturing light. CMY(K) is usually used in subtractive color (i.e. ink -- More/different ink means darker).

      --
      First against the wall when the revolution comes
    5. Re:why are sensors in RGB instead of CMY? by ChrisMaple · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Useually random noise sums as "root sum of squares". So the signal level would double, the noise would increase by about 1.4X. The net improvement would be 2/1.4 = 1.4. The more complicated electronics would reduce the S/N improvement a bit more, so the net improvement would probably be in the range of 1/3 to 1/2 stop (1.25 to 1.4), I guess.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    6. Re:why are sensors in RGB instead of CMY? by MasterC · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This way, by simply switching color space, the camera becomes twice as sensitive to light. I.e. instead of ...
      The issue is that the spectral density of sunlight is not flat. (I can't seem to find a good image for you.) Basically, it peaks at about 500 nm (yellowish-green) and tapers off toward infrared and ultraviolet. The Bayer filter has twice as many green pixels as red or blue, which reflects the sunlight power spectral density more than having one cyan, one magenta, one yellow, and one intensity would. In other words, sunlight is more green than red and blue.

      It is no coincidence (I suppose it's arguable if you call evolution a "theory" (with quotes)) that our eye is most sensitive to green light. :) Notice that of the three cone cells in our eyes, two heavily favor (534 & 564 nm) the yellow-green end of the spectrum. IMHO, the ideal colors for a camera filter would match the three peaks in our cones which decently lines up with the sunlight PSD.

      As a side note, the need for white balance on cameras is that spectral density for different light sources are not the same. Incandescents differ from fluorescents which differ from sunlight which is why incandescents have an orangeish tint and fluorescents have a blueish tint (that's where their frequencies have their peak power).

      (The theory behind why chlorophyll is green (which means it reflects green and, thus, does not absorb the frequencies with the most power) are quiet interesting to boot.)
      --
      :wq
    7. Re:why are sensors in RGB instead of CMY? by ringm000 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      In a camera, you cannot convert CMY to RGB by just inverting the components. Even in ideal model like (C,M,Y)=(G+B,R+B,R+G) you have to convert like R=(M+Y-C)/2, increasing noise level by 50%. Absorption spectra of the cones overlap a lot, so this model is obviously unreachable, requiring complex color correction which would probably give imperfect results. However, these are all color-related problems, and the dynamic range of luminance should still be improved.

    8. Re:why are sensors in RGB instead of CMY? by localman · · Score: 1

      Not exactly what you're saying, but Canon did something like this in the late 90's:

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CYGM_filter

      The result was, as you say, better light sensitivity, but at the expense of color accuracy. I guess in the end they decided the tradeoff wasn't worth it. I don't claim to understand any of the details, but I just read that page and then read your question :)

    9. Re:why are sensors in RGB instead of CMY? by shmlco · · Score: 1

      Since the final result wants to be RGB it's easier to start out that way. Second, you WANT light to be blocked by the peak filters in order to differentiate color.

      A good sensor wants resolution AND sensitivity AND accuracy. Since you can't have all three at the same time, you make tradeoffs. Your solution might increase sensitivity, but at the cost of accuracy and resolution.

      --
      Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
    10. Re:why are sensors in RGB instead of CMY? by dazilla · · Score: 1

      Actually, a green filter would only allow the green components of the cyan and yellow light through. Light always works in the additive space. leehwtsohg is right. You also shouldn't theoretically lose any color resolution (I think wiki's wrong on this one), since twice as much of each color is being sampled on each 2x2 pixel.

    11. Re:why are sensors in RGB instead of CMY? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think the other 2 posters got you going on the noise issues, but there is still one area where CMY filters still get crowned king:

      Astronomy cameras. Most astronomy cameras use CMY just because there is too little light to begin with.

      Check out the Meade DSI Imager, and the (now gone) Orion Starshoot.

    12. Re:why are sensors in RGB instead of CMY? by hazydave · · Score: 1

      Actually, some cameras do use CMY, or more likely, CMYG. My old Canon Pro90IS had such a sensor. Maybe they're trying to minimize the color error rather than maximize sensitivity? Hard to say.

      More interestingly, the very first HDV camcorder, the JVC HD-GR1, used both of these techniques back in 2003... see http://www.jvc.com/promotions/grhd1/unprecedent/s_ right.html. Their sensor is White (clear), Yellow, Cyan, and Green in a Bayer-like pattern. They made similar claims: the effect is 50% luma, rather than the 33% you'd presumably get with all filtering. This didn't really help -- that camera had really bad low-light performance, less than HD actual resolution, but they did make an interesting argument.

      They also had the advantage that, knowing your output is going to be 4:2:0 encoded, it's an easy argument to trade luminance for color accuracy that's getting tossed out anyway. Kodak's approach is likely to result in even worse edge effects (eg, interpolations that "guess wrong"), all things being equal. Of course, as you increase pixel density, this is less of an issue anyway for a unit-sized still photo. And, I suspect, their main goal here is to deliver higher resolution sensors without increasing the die size or making them crappy at low-light performance. This is more important in the highly competitive consumer camera market, but not a non-issue in pro-level stuff, as they continue to squeeze more pixels within something between APS and 35mm sized sensors, and simultaneously have a demand for better low-light performance.

      --
      -Dave Haynie
    13. Re:why are sensors in RGB instead of CMY? by slagheap · · Score: 1

      Actually, a green filter would only allow the green components of the cyan and yellow light through.

      And the rest of the cyan and yellow will be picked up by the Blue and the Red filters respectively. You are still just getting 1/3rd of the color wheel with each filter in either case. They should be basically equivalent. The reason they are not really equivalent (and why RGB is better) is that the human visual system has most of its sensitivity in the green area of the spectrum. That's why there are two greens in the Bayer pattern.

      --
      First against the wall when the revolution comes
    14. Re:why are sensors in RGB instead of CMY? by dfghjk · · Score: 1

      Changing the filter, or removing it entirely, does not change the amount of signal one bit. The amount of signal and the amount of noise are characteristics of the underlying pixel. Altering the filter only effects sensitivity.

      Filters can contribute to noise in a final image by creating and imbalance in white balance or by limiting the amount of light to a level below optimal. Otherwise, they aren't involved. This claim that the CMY to RGB conversion increases noise is nonsense.

    15. Re:why are sensors in RGB instead of CMY? by SpinyNorman · · Score: 1

      Check out this review and sample photos from the PowerShot S10 which uses the CYGM filter - it does seem to have very low noise, and awesome image quality in general. I wonder why they stopped using it?

      http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canons10/

    16. Re:why are sensors in RGB instead of CMY? by dfghjk · · Score: 1

      "In other words, sunlight is more green than red and blue."

      That is wrong. Sunlight varies dramatically and no such generalization can be made but "daylight" is quite well balanced; it is not biased toward green.

      "The Bayer filter has twice as many green pixels as red or blue, which reflects the sunlight power spectral density more than having one cyan, one magenta, one yellow, and one intensity would."

      No, the Bayer filter has twice as many green pixels because (a) there are 4 pixels and only 3 colors so one color is going to get twice as many as the other, and (b) the eye is far more sensitive to green resolution than to blue and red. Adding more pixels does not in any way take advantage of this extra green light you claim exists (but doesn't). Curiously, bayer sensor cameras are typically most sensitive to green by virtue of their dyes and infrared filter effects. If this were done intentionally rather than being an unfortunate consequence, it could only be justified in response to a *shortage* of green, not an overabundance.

      "...fluorescents have a blueish tint (that's where their frequencies have their peak power)."

      No, flourescents are very green. They are also colder ("bluer") than incandescents but they do not have a "blueish tint".

    17. Re:why are sensors in RGB instead of CMY? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, you are incorrect here. The sun emits light in roughly a black-body spectrum. The surface temperature of the sun is roughly 5500 Kelvin. A spectrum of a black body at a temperature of 5500 Kelvin emits more photons with 'green' wavelengths than either 'red' or 'blue' wavelengths. The spectrum of our sun does indeed show that it has a maximum in the green region and tapers off towards higher and lower wavelengths. Also, when talking about hotter and colder colors, using 'mood' as a reference isn't very accurate. In terms of black-body spectra, hotter temperatures produce a spectrum that is more blue while colder temperatures produce a spectrum that is more red.

    18. Re:why are sensors in RGB instead of CMY? by MasterC · · Score: 1

      That is wrong. Sunlight varies dramatically and no such generalization can be made but "daylight" is quite well balanced; it is not biased toward green.
      Over here you can find an excel sheet with the AM0 spectrum density. I would definitely not consider that flat and a maximum irradiance at ~481 nm with a definite heavy tail across the greenish band. I don't claim to be an expert, but I think you need a little bit more to convince me that I'm wrong other than "That is wrong." The evidence shows you to the contrary.

      No, the Bayer filter has twice as many green pixels because (a) there are 4 pixels and only 3 colors so one color is going to get twice as many as the other...
      There are absolutely, 100% not "3 colors". Color is a continuous spectrum and it just so happens that you can "fake it" pretty well with just 3 discrete colors. Shining red & blue light (two distinct wavelengths) does not magically give you a wavelength in the violet area. It "tricks" your eye to see purple by stimulating the cones just as if a violet light was being shown.

      I prefer not to get too insulting but you don't seem to grasp the fundamentals here. You can EASILY create a 3 color filter with equal percentage of each color per unit of area like so:

      RGB
      GBR
      BRG

      but it is a 3x3 filter while the Bayer filter is 2x2. So you are neither limited to "4 pixels" nor "only 3 colors". The pattern you choose will depend on your mathematical model of light and heavily influence your interpolation algorithm such that you get R, G, & B (or whatever colors you're designing for) at each pixel location as accurately as possible.

      Adding more [green] pixels does not in any way take advantage of this extra green light you claim exists (but doesn't).
      It absolutely does because the values of the pixels are interpolated to get R, G, & B at each pixel location. If you have twice as much green data then you've got a bias toward green. I'd love to see your math that shows to the contrary. Consider this: if your camera had an all green filter with a single red pixel, then you better bet that your image will be green. One single pixel of red intensity does not give you enough information to make a red & green image let alone give any information about blue. Believing to the contrary is beyond absurd. Advocating such is foolish.

      Come back when you're more informed, please. I will grant your correction on my statement about incandescent & fluorescent. Fluorescent lights are centered on green but have definite power spikes in the violet/ultraviolet area (thanks mercury). Fluorescent is definitely more blueish than incandescent and if you put them next to each other, fluorescent has a "blueish tint."
      --
      :wq
    19. Re:why are sensors in RGB instead of CMY? by MasterC · · Score: 1

      Changing the filter, or removing it entirely, does not change the amount of signal one bit.
      A filter does not alter the signal? In what universe is this true? Putting a red filter blocks everything but red. That DEFINITELY alters the signal in both intensity and frequency. That's what it is called a "filter".

      This claim that the CMY to RGB conversion increases noise is nonsense.
      That depends on your assumption of noise. If your noise has equal power across the visible spectrum, then which colors you filter by won't change the noise. However, if you have a noise spike at green then you will probably get less noise by going with cyan & magenta.

      As you word it you can be right or wrong, but you haven't stated your assumptions nor mentioned PSD differences (in fairness, neither did the gp post).
      --
      :wq
    20. Re:why are sensors in RGB instead of CMY? by Crazy+Eight · · Score: 1

      This graph in this article seems to indicate sunlight is mostly red.

    21. Re:why are sensors in RGB instead of CMY? by dfghjk · · Score: 1

      "A filter does not alter the signal?"

      No, it does not. The "signal" in this case is the well in the sensor. The filter does not effect the underlying sensor at all, only what that sensor is "sensing".

      "That DEFINITELY alters the signal in both intensity and frequency."

      I can't help it that you don't understand the problem.

      "That depends on your assumption of noise. If your noise has equal power across the visible spectrum, then which colors you filter by won't change the noise. However, if you have a noise spike at green then you will probably get less noise by going with cyan & magenta."

      Boy, such nonsense. The noise isn't coming from the light, it comes from the A-D conversion. You can't filter out noise that doesn't exist (yet).

    22. Re:why are sensors in RGB instead of CMY? by dfghjk · · Score: 1

      Since when was it ever stated that only 5500K mattered? Cameras have to respond to a variety of light sources and, as I stated before, no such generalization regarding green can possibly be made.

      Thanks for the gratuitous and meaningless scolding on "hot" and "cold". You act as though I made them up or used them improperly.

    23. Re:why are sensors in RGB instead of CMY? by dfghjk · · Score: 1

      "I don't claim to be an expert, but I think you need a little bit more to convince me that I'm wrong other than "That is wrong." The evidence shows you to the contrary."

      No, it doesn't nor have you made any attempt to address my comment that light sources vary.

      "There are absolutely, 100% not "3 colors". "

      In any tristimulous system, like our eyes, our cameras, and everything we are talking about here, there are only 3 colors. That's where the name comes from after all. If you want to degenerate this into an argument over your deliberate misunderstanding of my post then you can do it alone.

      "but it is a 3x3 filter while the Bayer filter is 2x2. So you are neither limited to "4 pixels" nor "only 3 colors"."

      Sure, you can use 3x3 if you want to use an even stronger antialiasing filter. Otherwise, each 2x2 cell will still have 2 sensors of 1 "color filter". The Bayer design made these all green because the eye is most sensitive to green. That's the reason they gave, after all.

      "It absolutely does because the values of the pixels are interpolated to get R, G, & B at each pixel location."

      Each pixel location responds only to the light that illuminates its sensor. Light illuminating other sensors may influence its value due to the demosaicing algorithm but that's not the same as saying that the sensor is taking advantage of "more green light". Twice as much green data isn't what is in dispute here, it's obtaining it because there is more green light.

      "I'd love to see your math that shows to the contrary."

      No need since you can't seem to keep yourself from being confused. There is clearly twice as much green data in a bayer sensor. How that equates to a "bias toward green" depends on what you mean by that. Regardless, it is absolutely not a consequence of having more green light.

      "Believing to the contrary is beyond absurd. Advocating such is foolish."

      At least we know that you aren't a fool in that respect.

      "Fluorescent is definitely more blueish than incandescent and if you put them next to each other, fluorescent has a "blueish tint.""

      No, they have a greenish tint. Of course, all this is an meaningless generalization. I still await your explanation of precisely how a bayer sensor ends up with a "bias toward green" because there is more green light available, particularly considering that you've now acknowledged that it isn't the case.

      Bayer himself says that more green sensors were chosen because of the eye's greater sensitivity to green details. That's all there is to it. Your original post is riddled with flaws.

    24. Re:why are sensors in RGB instead of CMY? by dazilla · · Score: 1

      A green filter allows through half of pure cyan and half of pure yellow light. Cyan and yellow together constitute 2/3rds of your defined color space in different combinations. In order to have a basis vector for the color spectrum (really what we're looking for), we need magenta as well, of which a green filter absorbs 100%. So your green filter allows through 1/2 of 2/3rds of your spectrum = 1/3

      A cyan filter allows through 100% of cyan light, 50% of yellow light (the green part), and 50% of magenta light (the blue part).
      That's a total of 2/3rds of the available spectrum.

      Each filter of RGB absorbs 2/3rds of the spectrum.
      Each filter of CMY absorbs 1/3rd of the spectrum.
      You can linearly combine either set of color filters to get all achievable colors.

    25. Re:why are sensors in RGB instead of CMY? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "That is wrong. Sunlight varies dramatically and no such generalization can be made but "daylight" is quite well balanced; it is not biased toward green."

      Hmmm... could this be where you said that the sun is not biased towards green and also the point I was correcting you on? The previous poster stated that it is probably why the eye is more sensitive to green light (which it is) and why they chose to use an extra green pixel instead of an extra red or blue. It's more important to get green right, because that is the region our eyes are most sensitive. So before you go posting 3 days later, perhaps you should reread your comments before you attack me.

  15. I'd Rather Have Less Noise, Wider dMax by ausoleil · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Sure, "faster" sensors will be a boon to the consumer market, and will surely have some applications in the pro market as well -- existing light press photography come to mind.

    For me, though, the problem is not so much speed as it is noise and dynamic range. That's because a lot of the time I still do fine-art level landscape and studio glamour photography -- neither of which are speed starved, but even the finest digitals could still use even less noise and wider dynamic ranges.

    While DSLRs have a huge advantage over handhelds in this regard, it would still be nice to see improvements in s/n such that the darker zones maintained their clarity and detail. Even the finest Canon cameras suffer to a degree in this regard, at least for people with very high standards. Some of us have those standards because that is what our clients demand - and in some cases we still must use film to meet their criteria.

    It's a virtual law that to obtain the best noise performance you need to use the lowest ISO speed that the camera can attain. So instead of bottoming out at 100, like most DSLRs, I'd like to see 25. Or better, 12.

    For more info, visit http://www.normankoren.com/digital_tonality.html

    1. Re:I'd Rather Have Less Noise, Wider dMax by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's a physical limit to how insensitive you can make a sensor, of course, which is what you're really asking for when you want lower ISO. At a certain point, you're just artificially crippling the technology to get a lower ISO, without any real benefit in terms of noise control.

      Current digital sensors actually have pretty good dynamic range compared to film, but it could always be better. HDR is one alternative for the here and now, but future sensors are starting to move from 12-bit to 14-bit outputs, so that'll add some more dynamic range.

      I think you really want to look at some of the SuperCCD cameras Fuji's put out, though. They achieve superior dynamic range by actually having sensor sites that aren't all the same size. This allows them to mix small sites for highlights with larger sites for shadows. While there's obviously a corresponding loss in resolution compared to a more traditional sensor, the pictures really do get quite a bit of extra dynamic range from the technique. It's also configurable on the camera, so you can change how the sensor is used depending on your needs.

      That said, as much as you might benefit from more dynamic range, I think most people's needs are best served with faster sensors. For one thing, most people use digicams, and they're already pretty horrible at even moderately high ISOs, so any improvement is good (although if it means I can shoot acceptable ISO 6400 on a DSLR, that would be pretty impressive :-) ). And for landscape work, HDR techniques are a real possibility. Admittedly, not so great for studio work.

    2. Re:I'd Rather Have Less Noise, Wider dMax by nick_davison · · Score: 1

      There's a physical limit to how insensitive you can make a sensor, of course, which is what you're really asking for when you want lower ISO. At a certain point, you're just artificially crippling the technology to get a lower ISO, without any real benefit in terms of noise control. Sounds good to me. ;)

      Seriously... I've never understood why that's not an option that can be carried out on the processing chip. If someone wants an equivalent film speed of say 12 and your sensor can only go to 100, why can't the chip take 12 back to back shots and simply average them?

      I realize that's not giving true light sensitivity... But I'd still much rather have the option to make my camera WAY less sensitive to light than have to deal with a 2x, 4x, 8x, etc. set of neutral densitiy filters every time I want to be able to shoot water trails in bright sunlight.

      I'm sure I must be missing something. It always seems like a remarkably simple, near free, addition for the camera companies to add. Sure, it'd be of limited use to most people but, if you can add it for near-free and add a cool new bullet point on your feature list, why wouldn't you add it? What am I missing?
  16. DPReview has a good explanation by MonorailCat · · Score: 2, Informative

    They posted a full press release with images and sensor layout diagrams, additionally there is an excellent discussion in their news forum with a lot of good information. http://www.dpreview.com/news/0706/07061401kodakhig hsens.asp

    1. Re:DPReview has a good explanation by tom17 · · Score: 1

      Yep, and according to the diagrams in there, you have 4 greens, 2 blues, 2 reds and 8 of the new ones in one 'pattern block'

      i.e.
      for every 2 greens you get 1 red, 1 blue and 4 of the new ones.

    2. Re:DPReview has a good explanation by Reece400 · · Score: 1

      While the red & blue pixels seem a bit spread out to me with the new pattern, I'm sure this isn't much of an issue with such high megapixel CCD's these days. From the examples they seem to be suited quite well for cellphones.

  17. Where is the transparent pixel? by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 3, Interesting
    The Bayer pattern has one red, one blue and two green sub-pixels per pixel. They could lose one green and replace it with transparent. Or they could come up with a different packing to accomodate a transparent sub-pixel.

    One of the problems with DLP projection TVs with a "color wheel" was that since every color lets only 1/3 of the light through, the picture was dim. So they added a fourth element "clear" that lets out all the light to get every projected pixel a blast of light they need and the remaining portions of the color wheel adds only additional brightness for each color.

    This technology seems to be kind of similar. The transparent sub pixel detects over all lumninosity and the remaining pixels "adjust" for color. Very close to what we have in our retina too. Almost all our cylindrical cells respond only to luminosity and the cones respond, to varying degrees, three colors. A poster was complaining about losing "color resolution". I think millions of years of evolution has shown us the balance. You need about 90% of the pixels responding to luminosity and just 10% to color. The same ratio in our retina.

    --
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  18. This Is Too Obvious by osewa77 · · Score: 1

    This is so obvious - I've personally wondered why 1CCD sensors they don't have a fourth pixel group to carry brightness information only. There must be good reasons why this has not been done before now; I hope we get to find out why.

    1. Re:This Is Too Obvious by cei · · Score: 1

      But it has been done. Check out Fuji's Super CCD...

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    2. Re:This Is Too Obvious by dfghjk · · Score: 1

      Fuji's design uses a conventional bayer pattern. You are incorrect.

    3. Re:This Is Too Obvious by glyph42 · · Score: 1

      It's so obvious, in fact, that Bryce Bayer mentioned similar designs in his original Bayer filter patent. Check it out here:

      http://www.quadibloc.com/other/cfaint.htm

      I think it's getting press now because Kodak is actually considering implementing the idea in consumer cameras.

      --
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    4. Re:This Is Too Obvious by cei · · Score: 1

      No idea what you're talking about. The bayer pattern isn't anything close to the Super CCD arrangement...
      http://www.fujifilm.com/support/tips_for_better_ph otos/film-digital/digital.html

      --
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    5. Re:This Is Too Obvious by dfghjk · · Score: 1

      As proven by your link, the Fuji sensor uses a bayer pattern. I'm sorry you have no idea what I'm talking about. Perhaps you should learn what a Bayer pattern is. Fuji turns the Bayer pattern filter 45 degrees.

  19. Why not this pattern by Bob-taro · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The patterns they suggested in the article were not as elegant as the Bayer filter (where each color formed an evenly spaced grid). They may be hiding the actual pattern for now or there may be some technical reason for those patterns that I don't understand, but I would suggest this pattern (C = Clear):

    C G C G
    B C R C
    C G C G
    R C B C

    it keeps the same 4clear:2green:1red:1blue ratio but the different color pixels all form a regularly spaced grid.

    --
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  20. Although I am old enough to remember the 80s.. by blind+biker · · Score: 1

    ..the ISO 400 reolution was largely lost on me.

    --
    "The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
  21. Is the clear array sensitive across the spectrum? by mlts · · Score: 1

    This gets me wondering:

    Does the clear array have a flat sensitivity level across the spectrum? Where it will give the same data value for the same number of photons striking it with a 700nm wavelength as it would for photons striking it that vibrate at 400nm?

    If the sensor (for example here) was more sensitive to red, then this would skew the picture results significantly, especially if it picked up and added infrared light to the picture's data which isn't visible to the human eye.

  22. Cellphone cameras by grahamsz · · Score: 1

    They need every bit of light they can get because the sensors are so small. Resolution and color depth aren't really a problem in that space, but brightness really is.

    1. Re:Cellphone cameras by Doctor+Memory · · Score: 1

      Especially when you consider how many pictures are taken in bars and at parties and other low-light locations. If somebody's got a real camera, they typically have a decent flash and know when to use it. It's when you're trying to snag some cutie's pic to store along with her number in your phone that you have trouble.

      --
      Just junk food for thought...
  23. Gendale? by jrumney · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Will this fourth sensor finally mean we can capture Gendale in all its beauty?

  24. Double the sensitivity.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So Kodak's best cameras would then have acceptable noise at, say, ISO 400?

  25. Yes it is by asphaltjesus · · Score: 1

    For most photography applications, it is a meaningful advance for which there is no downside.

    The marketing hype surrounding resolution just keeps spinning further away from reality.

    Digital photographic prints off the average production photo printer (my costco has them right on the floor) the lines per milimeter resolution is _way_ below what even a **really** good digital SLR with **great** optics can capture.

    Also keep in mind the color gamut of the average digital camera is quite narrow, and unsophisticated compared to analog. There are a number of segments of photography where film still rules the day because the results are more "cinematic" than digital.

    So throwing out 3/4 of the color resolution still leaves you with extra data that will be thrown out when the data hits the paper. I can think of one or two exceptions, but they are way, way out of the norm.

    A related anecdote, I recall the photos from the Mars rover were taken with a 1.5MP sensor and they made *gigantic* beautiful images.

    --
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    1. Re:Yes it is by shmlco · · Score: 1

      "For most photography applications, it is a meaningful advance for which there is no downside."

      Well, you lose color resolution and I'd say that there's a good chance that in bright sunlight you're going to be blowing out quite a few of the clear pixels, losing luminance information there as well. Being "more" sensitive helps when there's less light, not when there's too much.

      Translation: There's always a downside.

      --
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  26. Other ideas for alternative color patterns by Thagg · · Score: 4, Interesting

    While I like Kodak's idea quite a bit, here are a couple of other ideas.

    1) Sony was building cameras for a while with four color channels. There was the normal green, but also a different green they called "emerald" for one of the four Bayer pattern locations. Unfortunately, this was a solution in search of a problem, it never really caught on because there just wasn't any perceived benefit.

    2) I do visual effects for films. For the last 50 years or so, people have been using bluescreen and greenscreen effects. The idea is to put a constant color background, and process the image so that any pixels of that color become transparent. Over the years, more and more lipstick has been applied to this pig -- so that you can now often extract shadows that fall on the greenscreen, pull transparent smoke from the greenscreen plate -- these things have become even more possible through digital processing.

    Still, it sucks. Greenscreen photography forces so many compromises that I often recommend shooting without it and laboriously hand-rotoscoping the shots.

    But -- say you had a fourth color filter, with a very narrow spectral band. Perhaps the yellow sodium color -- commercial lights that put out very narrow-band yellow are sometimes used for street lighting. If you had a very narrow-band sodium filter over 1/4 of the pixels, you could pull perfect mattes without 99% of the artifacts of traditional greenscreen and bluescreen photography. Finally (and this is killer!) you could make glasses that the director of photography and other lighting crew could wear that block just that frequency, so they could see the set as it really is -- without the sodium light pollution.

    Still, Kudos to Kodak for thinking outside the box.

    Thad Beier

    --
    I love Mondays. On a Monday, anything is possible.
    1. Re:Other ideas for alternative color patterns by kybred · · Score: 1

      Greenscreen photography forces so many compromises that I often recommend shooting without it and laboriously hand-rotoscoping the shots.

      I thought that the color for the greenscreen was selected because it didn't appear in human flesh tones. Since it was originally (AFAIK) used for TV studio news so they could put slides (and later video) behind the talking heads. Occassionally you'll see a newsperson that selected a tie with a color too close to the greenscreen color and you'll be able to 'see' through them, though.

      Plus, it'd be hard to hand-rotoscope live video. :-)

    2. Re:Other ideas for alternative color patterns by BuckBundy · · Score: 1

      I am surprised that no on has mentioned Fuji already. Isn't their hehagonal sensor doing the same, may be in a different physical pattern? I currently have one of their cameras with this sensor and the quality of the image is superb - smooth as digital SLR (may be a bit less resolution though, but in real life is too hard to tell).

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    3. Re:Other ideas for alternative color patterns by Thagg · · Score: 1

      What Fuji has also made is a SuperCCD with two different sized photosensors, with the large normal-sensitivity ones interspersed with small low-sensitivity cells. This is designed to allow one to get much greater dynamic range, with real detail in the highlights that would be blown-out in normal cameras. You can see some examples of this here at the incomparable dpreview.com site. Fuji sells a camera today with a similar sensor with 12 Megapixels, 6 low-sensitivity and 6 hi.

      Sadly, this appears to be another true advance in technology that hasn't caught on with the general public.

      Thad Beier

      --
      I love Mondays. On a Monday, anything is possible.
    4. Re:Other ideas for alternative color patterns by Apotsy · · Score: 1
      Funny you should mention sodium vapor lamps. It's already been done.

      In 1959.

      link

      It was a proprietary process that Disney owned. Peter Ellenshaw was the effects supervisor who used it. His son Harrison Ellenshaw reused the technique in 1990's "Dick Tracy".

    5. Re:Other ideas for alternative color patterns by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, rotoscoping live video would at least be hard on the animators writs...

    6. Re:Other ideas for alternative color patterns by Thagg · · Score: 1

      I know it's been done before -- my favorite FX movie of all time, Mary Poppins, was done that way, too. It was a good idea then, a better one now. Back then they used two cameras ganged together (old Technicolor cameras) to record the color in one and the sodium light in the other. Wacky!

      Thad

      --
      I love Mondays. On a Monday, anything is possible.
  27. Loss of color resolution is not that big a deal by Solandri · · Score: 4, Informative

    It's done on TV all the time and nobody complains (chrominance is separated from luminance and often transmitted at much lower resolution). As has been pointed out below, your eyes are made up of rods (which see black and white) and cones (which see color), and only a fraction of those cones are devoted to each individual red, green, or blue spectrum. So your color resolution is already significantly lower than your luminance resolution. You can even see photos demonstrating this with a 9x decrease in color resolution (3x in each linear direction). You're most sensitive to green, which is why the Bayer sensors commonly used in digital cameras divide each 4 pixels into GRGB.

  28. Re:Is the clear array sensitive across the spectru by slagheap · · Score: 1


    Does the clear array have a flat sensitivity level across the spectrum? Where it will give the same data value for the same number of photons striking it with a 700nm wavelength as it would for photons striking it that vibrate at 400nm?

    Probably not... but the sensor will have some known characterization and the Bayer->RGB(->jpeg) conversion (that is done in-camera or on the computer if you handle RAW files) will account for this when it reconstructs the full RGB value for each pixel.


    If the sensor (for example here) was more sensitive to red, then this would skew the picture results significantly, especially if it picked up and added infrared light to the picture's data which isn't visible to the human eye.

    Most digital camera sensors have a infrared filter over them to prevent this. Canon sells a version of their 20D called the 20Da which is specialized for astrophotography. I believe the primary change compared to the standard 20D is the removal of the IR filter.

    --
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  29. Re:Is the clear array sensitive across the spectru by MajroMax · · Score: 1

    If the sensor (for example here) was more sensitive to red, then this would skew the picture results significantly, especially if it picked up and added infrared light to the picture's data which isn't visible to the human eye.

    I imagine that's part of the reason it hasn't been done yet. Finding the "true luminosity" from a nearby Red, Green, Blue, and Clear CCD is probably nontrivial. I imagine that IR sensitivity isn't as troublesome as you'd suggest, though, since most cameras now come with IR filters over the CCD array. Photographers interested in IR (and UV) photography sometimes have to have that filter removed outright.

    --
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  30. Why does everything need 'bright colors'!? by kkohlbacher · · Score: 1

    ...and fancy lights?

    My Hitachi CMOS works fine without any fancy color filters. Case mods are getting a little out of hand these days...



    {/joke}

  31. Re:Is the clear array sensitive across the spectru by jeiler · · Score: 1

    Does the clear array have a flat sensitivity level across the spectrum? Where it will give the same data value for the same number of photons striking it with a 700nm wavelength as it would for photons striking it that vibrate at 400nm?
    Theoretically, there's no subtance that has a perfectly flat sensitivity level across the spectrum. However, as long as the errors are below the perception level of the sensor, it should work. It's kind of like glass--there's no such thing as a perfectly transparent, color-free glass. But as long as the glass is thin enough that human eyes can't perceive the little bit of light absorption that does occur, it still looks clear.
    --

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  32. Re:Is the clear array sensitive across the spectru by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 1

    I would imagine that the camera is built to take into account the sensitivity of the sensor across the spectrum when converting the RGB + Luminance to RGB for output. It would be similar to the same calibration necessary to to get the colors right in the first place. You would have to figure out how the sensor reacts to the R, G, and B wavelength and apply a gamma transformation (or whatever, I'm not photography or light expert) to what the sensors detect to get a result that represents what the human eye would see in the first place. Adding the luminance channel makes it more complicated, but it's still the same kind of problem.

    Actually, it still amazes me how complicated color really is.

    --
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  33. Better than Foveon? by mdielmann · · Score: 2, Informative

    I wonder how this is going to compare to the Foveon sensors. They capture RGB data at all pixels - filtered based on depth rather than location. Now if only those babies cost less.

    --
    Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
    1. Re:Better than Foveon? by Civil_Disobedient · · Score: 1

      One big way: they'll actually license the damned technology, unlike Foveon who only release their damned super-sensors to crappy second-rate Lens manufacturers.

  34. Thanks! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    WhyTF is the Kodak press release showing a disc of random colors instead of the sensor layout?

    1. Re:Thanks! by Dogtanian · · Score: 1

      WhyTF is the Kodak press release showing a disc of random colors instead of the sensor layout? Because it looks pretty and fills up space, and they probably don't have any "pretty" photos of the actual sensor.

      Same reason as people use cheesy stock photography. Even newspaper articles do this; they include an irrelevant or generic image beside a story because it takes up space, makes it more attractive and headline stories are "meant" to have photos.
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  35. Re:Film is still better. by Jackie_Chan_Fan · · Score: 1

    Film really is nice, but changing film rolls is something i will never ever want to do again. I'm perfectly happy with a handful of 4GB compact flash cards and my canon eos-3D. Although i want a Mark II-1DS and Mark III ;)

  36. not hardly by goombah99 · · Score: 1
    Actually the place you will lose more bits is not the use of the are (25%) but the faster shutter speed. if the camera can shoot two stops faster then you 75% of the light on the RGB detectors.

    Now as for losing color resolution, I think you won't lose much. The only place you are going to notice it is in dim light and it will be less than 1 bit of loss. Those would be shots you would nt have gotten anyhow because they would have been below the camera's ability.

    Prior art? LCD projectors do this same trick to brighten the projectors for presentations. rgb+white on the color wheels. This is also why some projectors, designed for movie viewing, are a littel dimmer for the same wattage because they leave out the white on the wheel for better color saturation and higher wheel speed.


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  37. Re:Is the clear array sensitive across the spectru by blincoln · · Score: 1

    If the sensor (for example here) was more sensitive to red, then this would skew the picture results significantly, especially if it picked up and added infrared light to the picture's data which isn't visible to the human eye.

    I would flip that around and say that that behaviour might actually be advantageous. If you're in a low (visible) light situation, maybe you could use an IR flash to get luminance values and merge that with the dim visible colour data to get a halfway-decent colour image with no visible flash.

    --
    "...always new atoms but always doing the same dance, remembering what the dance was yesterday." -Richard Feynman
  38. "White" sensor? by ek_adam · · Score: 1

    It'd be interesting to see the algorithm for that sensor. The color values of the adjacent pixels are going to have to be taken into account. A bare photoelectric sensor will provide a higher voltage for higher frequencies of light. To a "white" sensor, a blue photon looks brighter than a red one.

    More complexity for RAW filters.

  39. Alternatives? by BritneySP2 · · Score: 1

    What are the alternatives to using filters? I have been wondering how feasible an approach based on spectrum analysis would be, i. e. if it would be possible to build a matrix of arrays of sensors, with each array having, say, a micro-prism on top of it?

    1. Re:Alternatives? by tbfee · · Score: 1

      There are scientific instruments, including imagers, that essentially do this (grating spectrometers, fourier transform spectrometers) but they're complex, costly, and require lots of processing (for instance, to convert from the time domain back into the frequency domain). The job is essentially easier to do when the data's still photons, as it were. Right now, anyway. And, the advantages of such a system might not be as applicable in a consumer application (where oversaturated color is more important) than they would in a scientific one (where chromatic accuracy is more important).

      --
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  40. Not the point by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

    The point she was trying to make was that when it became available everywhere (pharmacies and five and dimes) at a similar price point to ASA 200 then there was mass adoption, and most peoples' snapshots gained quality. Sure, they picked up some grain and lost some saturation, but most people care about non-blurry and better exposure.

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  41. resolute colors required? by thatotherguy007 · · Score: 1

    If you have read anything on the physical nature of the eye, you should come across three rather important things about how it sees. One being that there are (in the average non- colorblind/tetrachromic human eye) four light receptors: A red, blue, and green cone and a contrast sensitive rod. Second, if my memory serves me, the rod cell can detect down to a single photon while the cones are around 6 times less sensitive. Third that the rod is most sensitive to green and if this bias is reflected in the fourth pixel, it would help red and blue areas not look brighter in the image than the original subject. When you make a device to store an image, I would assume it should collect the same sort of information that the eye would.
    In response to the previous post, however, the fourth, unfiltered pixel would decrease color resolution by 1/4 but it would be negligible because of the sensitivity of the rods. This is one of the ways they shrink the high definition movies. In that case they scrap 3/4 of the color resolution and with little perceived difference.

    1. Re:resolute colors required? by fyngyrz · · Score: 3, Informative
      In response to the previous post, however, the fourth, unfiltered pixel would decrease color resolution by 1/4

      No... not really.

      First of all, the Bayer pattern is...

      RG
      GB

      ...in a square as shown. Because there are three color channels desired, and four cells in a square, and green carries the most spatial information to the eye, the green sensor is duplicated. Recovering image data from a Bayer patterned sensor involves getting luma from all four cells, adjusted for how luma looks when viewed through such filters, and interpolating R, G and B from the staggered sensors in adjacent 4-cell Bayer groups. In a Bayer grouping, you always have RGRGRGRGR.... on one line and GBGBGBGB... on the next, which also gives you vertical lines of RGRGRG.... and GBGBGB...

      Giving up one of the four sites to wide-band sensitivity as Kodak proposes, the same spatial pattern still has exactly the same sensitivity to red and blue; nothing has changed there. Red and blue sensor sites still alternate at the exact same spatial rate. But the new pattern has 1/2 the spatial (not intensity) sensitivity to green (which we are most sensitive to, remember); it has the same sensitivity to luma; and it probably has considerably enhanced sensitivity to infrared and ultraviolet, though that remains to be seen, and such an advantage is not as generally useful to most photographers (though those who enjoy IR and/or UV photography will love this thing if the sensor is truly wide-band.)

      But there are complications; such as, Bayer filters tend to produce significant moire patterns, and the filters applied to prevent that reduce the available spatial resolution by as much as 1/2 along each axis anyway.

      I've written numerous RAW image plugins for Bayer (and other) patterns, and believe me, it isn't as simple as 1/4 the color. This is a new configuration, and I've not written code for it as yet, but I would bet my boots that when the time comes to do so, the color resolution of an image will not suffer much, if at all. You'll still have RGB info available at about twice the moire filter rate. Spatial resolution shouldn't suffer either, because luma information is still available from the new arrangement. In terms of color images, what I'm trying to figure out is what the perceived advantage is.

      Thinking outside the box of color images, though, I can imagine a simple 1/4 resolution B&W mode that can do infrared and ultraviolet with the proper blocking filters... that'd be trippy. :-)

      --
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    2. Re:resolute colors required? by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

      This is a new configuration, and I've not written code for it as yet, but I would bet my boots that when the time comes to do so, the color resolution of an image will not suffer much, if at all. You'll still have RGB info available at about twice the moire filter rate. Spatial resolution shouldn't suffer either, because luma information is still available from the new arrangement. In terms of color images, what I'm trying to figure out is what the perceived advantage is.

      I have trouble deciding how much this would affect color accuracy as well, it seems like it has the potential to introduce slightly more color moire as you have to do more guessing with slightly less green data as you said...

      Thinking outside the box of color images, though, I can imagine a simple 1/4 resolution B&W mode that can do infrared and ultraviolet with the proper blocking filters... that'd be trippy.

      Ahh, like we can already do with Foveon sensor based DSLR's (such as the Sigma SD-14) removing the dust protector/IR Cut filter behind the lens.

      However, I really doubt you would be able to to this with the Kodak sensor unless they decide to make those "clear" parts of the filter translucent to IR and UV - this seems unlikely, and if they did you would still need an IR and UV filter somewhere in front of the sensor so the "luminance only" photosites did not feed you false data about brightness in visible spectrums from overly strong IR or UV sources (really only IR since most lenses block UV).

      --
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  42. Evolution Has It Right? Different Goals by nick_davison · · Score: 1

    You need about 90% of the pixels responding to luminosity and just 10% to color. My camera doesn't care about avoiding being eaten by a lion. Nor does it care about sensing smaller prey running through the edges of its field of vision so it can turn its sensor to focus the sharper resolution on it.

    The human eye is awesome for what it's evolved to do. Photography, however, is a different task. The human eye is good at resolving things infront of it while catching movement to the sides and only turning if it's interested. A camera with a well resolved center section but lousy edge resolution except for movement is one of the last things we want.

    So, yes, the human eye is the result of millions of years of evolution and is a very efficient means of achieving its task. Just don't confuse the task of a human eye that's trying to ensure our survival with that of a camera that's trying to capture all of the detail of a moment for posterity.
    1. Re:Evolution Has It Right? Different Goals by richie2000 · · Score: 1

      A camera with a well resolved center section but lousy edge resolution except for movement is one of the last things we want. And yet someone keeps buying Lensbabies. :-)
      --
      Money for nothing, pix for free
  43. quite to the contrary by nanosquid · · Score: 1

    The 8 Mpixel color image that comes out of your camera is already a complicated guesswork; in terms of real color information, it's more like 2-3 Mpixel, since there really are only 2 million complete RGBG cells.

    Making one of the RGBG cells into a "white" cell doesn't really change much of anything in terms of resolution: color resolution is still half what grayscale resolution is. And it does actually help with color accuracy, since having four different receptors lets cameras deal a lot better with fluorescent lights.

    This will also increase dynamic range slightly, since the "white" receptors are more sensitive than the RGB receptors.

    This looks like a very good thing overall, really.

  44. Re:Is the clear array sensitive across the spectru by sahonen · · Score: 1

    Only low-end consumer gear doesn't put an IR filter in front of the sensor. Since the goal of a camera is to faithfully reproduce the color in the scene as visible to the human eye, not putting an IR filter in defeats that purpose.

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  45. How about using that new non-reflecting material? by GreenSwirl · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Researchers here at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute recently came up with a super non-reflective coating -- it basically has nano-spikes that help absorb light from all angles and at all frequencies. Seems like it would be good to use for the dark pixel. http://news.rpi.edu/update.do?artcenterkey=1956

  46. Wrong Again by asphaltjesus · · Score: 1

    you're going to be blowing out quite a few of the clear pixels

    In a production CMOS/CCD assembly this is not likely. In order to get a digital camera sensor to produce a pleasing image in many lighting conditions the CCD/CMOS assemblies already have controls for this.

    The best example of proof is to try using a scanner head as a digital camera. You will find that the CCD assembly in a scanner is not designed to handle variable light, so most things outside a narrow range of brightness (luminance maybe?) are blown out.

    --
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    1. Re:Wrong Again by shmlco · · Score: 1

      If those pixel wells are two stops more "sensitive", then in bright light and at a given f-stop/shutter speed they're going to fill faster, eventually saturating and "blowing out" before the filtered pixels would. Think of a microphone sensitive enough to detect whispers, and then what happens when someone slams the door. Bang. Sound levels peg the needle.

      It's inescapable. The clear pixels are either more sensitive to low-light levels, or they're not. If they're sensitive to low-light levels, then bright light is going to saturate them sooner. If they're saturated, they're blown, and they're not providing edge-detecting resolution information. QED, it's a tradeoff.

      --
      Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
  47. What the heck??!! by bromster · · Score: 1

    What the heck? I posted this news yesterday and an admin deleted it. Thats bollix!! Give credit where credit is due!

  48. Re:Film is still better. by PenGun · · Score: 1

    Not true. 4K is next and is being used now for feature films. Peter Jackson thinks it is the future and many industry icons believe the same.

      Once you have seen 4K with 4:4:4 colour space you may take that back. Some say it is pretty well 65mm resolution.

  49. Horrible article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is that article supposed to demonstrate that removing colour is not a big deal? I would never want something like that in my screensaver, and I'm not known to be picky. The writer also cheated by using an image that contains a lot less colour than a lot of real-world photos. And even then the results looked horrible.
    Now, I know that percieved colour resolution is lower than percieved intensity resolution, but this is a fine balance between spatial and intensity resolution. By ignoring this, the article managed to make it seem as if the point the article makes isn't valid, when in fact it is (for the most part).

  50. RG +BG arguments missing the point? by CodeShark · · Score: 3, Informative
    Having read all the arguments about giving up 1/2 of the green sensors, and admittedly not as an electronics fiend but as someone who worked in printing for years before moving to IT, I think the "sacrificing color" arguments are somewhat overstated. Here's why:

    In printing technologies, at least in the early '90s they were using a technique called either "GCR" (gray color removal) or "UCR" (under color removal) which basically transfer almost all of the "light density" information from the cyan-magenta-yellow films of a color separation to the "K" film (black) -- because black ink is quite a bit cheaper than the alternatives. I have seen images printed with up to 90% of the density in the black that are virtually indistinguishable from images printed from a "normal" color separation by the naked eye, and sometimes if a high enough line screen value is used (+200 LPI) it is hard to tell that a print is a GCR'd image even with a magnifying glass.

    So it stands to reason for me at least that if I devote more attention to capturing the "amount" of light with "one CCD eye" completely open, and the "quality" (hue and tint) of the light with my "other three CCD eyes" that are filtering for spectra, I should be able to do the same thing digitally that they have been doing optically in printing for yearsand still yield a superior result.

    I'd love to hear a discussion about the best way to use the digital bits in a 32 bit "GCR" digital world by the way. For example, using 10 bits (1024 levels) for luma, 8 bits (256 hues and tints) for green, and 7 bits (128 hues and tints each) for red and blue, or whatever the optimal case could be

    Thoughts?

    --
    ...Open Source isn't the only answer -- but it's almost always a better value than the alternatives...
    1. Re:RG +BG arguments missing the point? by takev · · Score: 1

      It is a little bit more easier to print with multiple colors than to parse (demosaic) an image with different filters.
      I myself am trying to implement a demosaic algorithm in the OpenGL shader language.
      It is called "Adaptive Homogeneity-Directed Demosaicing Algorithm".
      It basically goes like this:

      You start with the sensor data 14 bit unsigned integers in the following pattern:
      GRGRGRGR
      BGBGBGBG
      GRGRGRGR
      BGBGBGBG

      Each pixel in the sensor has a different amount of constant bias and gain, so these have to be eliminated before doing the actual demosaic. This is quite simple, you start by capturing images in total blackness and with even 50% grey. Then use this data to remove the dark current and equalize the sensitivity for each individual pixel.

      Next you interpolate the G components at the positions of the bayer-R and bayer-B pixels. We use a 1x5 "horizontal"-convolution filter on the image for every bayer-R and bayer-B pixel, thus we include the value of the bayer-R/B pixel together with the bayer-G pixels. We also do this with a 5x1 "vertical"-convolution filter, so that we have different version of this interpolation.

      Now we subtract the interpolated G from the bayer-R and bayer-B (because the difference between the color-components changes at a lower frequency than the actual intensity of each component). Than we use simple linear interpolation between these R-G and B-G components and add the interpolated G to the final value. We end up with a proper RGB image, well actually two RGB images, one which the green was interpolated horizontally and the second where green was interpolated vertically. Remember that we used the interpolated green to calculate the R and B values as well, so the two images will vary in all color components.

      As the these RGB values come from a sensor with color filters that differ in wavelength-response from the RGB phosphors on the screen, we will do a color conversion, a simple matrix multiplication. Next we convert these pretty RGB values to YUV (should actually be CIE Lab, but it should be close enough). For each pixel we will count the amount of nearest neighbors where both the Y value and the UV values are close to the current pixel. We make this homogeneity map both for our horizontal and vertical RGB images.

      Now for each pixel we will look which of the two (horizontal and vertical) homogeneities has the highest value, and choose the RGB pixel from the two RGB-images.

      The final step is a smoothing filter (median-filter) on the difference between the R/B components and the G component, this is for removing some interpolation artifacts, this median-filter is run three times.

      That is quite some calculations you have to do, to retrieve as much resolution from a bayer image as possible. Now image you take all this research and to redo them, because there is now a white pixel in there as well.

      Not that I am complaining, a bayer image only one third of the bandwidth of a RGB image, and with an algorithm like this you retrieve most of it back. With actual white pixels, it may be possible to retrieve even more resolution because of the overlapping wave lengths.

  51. Re: Zeiss lenses by CodeShark · · Score: 1

    Are world class optics -- used by Hasselblad, Rollei, Yashica and now Sony .and unless things have changed radically since I last checked, have been the top lenses along with Nikon for years and years. I think Leica used Zeiss lenses also and Leica cameras WERE top notch back when. Not sure how far Canon, Minolta, etc. have made up the distance since about 1996, by the way.

    --
    ...Open Source isn't the only answer -- but it's almost always a better value than the alternatives...
  52. Patents? by gr8_phk · · Score: 1

    A choice quote: "It's almost inconceivable that nobody else thought of, or acted on this idea, until now." That sure sounds like they think this is obvious. Does that mean they'll skip getting a patent?

  53. photon noise by nanosquid · · Score: 1

    Cameras aren't "good enough" until I can shoot fast action at high magnification in near dark with a compact camera. Then I will be happy.

    Then you will never be happy because it's intrinsically impossible to capture low noise images "in near dark" with a small area sensor because of photon noise.

    1. Re:photon noise by TheLink · · Score: 1

      Isn't it possible to have a non "conventional" sensor configurations to capture more light? Then you use lots of cpu and software to glue the pic together ;).

      Is it possible to make sensors that don't block photons that they don't capture? Then you could layer them. Sure the raw focus would be off, but that's where the software comes in.

      Sure there's a limit to what a compact camera can do, but I think we are still far from it.

      --
    2. Re:photon noise by nanosquid · · Score: 1

      It's basic geometry and physics: in low light, there are only a small number of photons originating at each surface point and going into any particular direction. How many of those enter the camera depends on the total opening of the lens(es) you use. Detection efficiency of a good CCD itself is about 50-90%, and even normal CCDs are not that far below and already better than the human eye.

      There are some tricks you can play with sensor arrangements, slightly better lens designs, and heuristic image processing, but don't expect more than 1-2 f-stops over the Fuji F11 (probably the lowest noise compact right now).

  54. Wha? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just don't confuse the task of a human eye that's trying to ensure our survival with that of a camera that's trying to capture all of the detail of a moment for posterity.
    That "moment for posterity" ends up being viewed by humans, with that very set of evolved vision characteristics you went out of your way to describe, not by some penta-chromatic alien race.

    We're significantly more sensitive to inconsistencies and errors in luma than we are in chroma, so perhaps it is time to try another option to see how well it can satisfy that sensitivity.

    This has the promise of significantly increasing the dynamic range of the luma axis, as well as significantly reducing luma noise. Those sound like good improvements to me.
    1. Re:Wha? by nick_davison · · Score: 1

      That "moment for posterity" ends up being viewed by humans, with that very set of evolved vision characteristics you went out of your way to describe, not by some penta-chromatic alien race.

      That's not correct:

      The moment of posterity is recorded as a two dimensional static moment in time.

      The features of our eyes that detect movement to the side will have nothing to detect. Even if we could create some kind of sharp centered image with a hazy sense of something moving towards the edges, our eyes would quickly track to the edge and the single direction/single instant shot, were it to mirror human vision, would be completely incapable of shifting its focus that way.

      Certainly, a modern photograph has somewhat similar limitations in that we can't pan our vision beyond the edge of it and keep getting more information. It exceeds a human vision duplicate however in that it retains [almost - fish eye effects, vignetting, etc. aside] as much detail if we look at an edge as it does if we look at the center - thus giving us a fair degree of panning type ability.

      You reference the potential benefits of this new approach. I don't dispute that the approach has potential (just like Foveon has staggering potential albeit with really poor implementation).

      I similarly don't dispute the value of both IR and UV filters (though I'd rather be able to turn both off, too, when I want to - part of the reason digital black and white photography looks off is because there's no subtle IR response that we're used to seeing in film).

      However, its benefits come from only taking those parts of human evolution that benefit a two dimensional captured moment in time and, just as importantly, ditching the aspects of human vision that don't benefit it.

      I just don't think moving to a 100% match of evolution is a good thing given that photographs have different goals to matching one view in one direction. A cheetah's body has evolved to run on land better than any other mammal - but most human sprinters would still rather maintain human form for the other benefits it gives. Sure, luma is more important than color resolving - so mimic that - but panning ability in a photo is more important than a more perfect shot that you can't look to either side on.

  55. you get what you pay for by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    i'm a karmawhore, so i'm ACing this. but you'll still get an informed answer, heh. basically, you get what you pay for. Zeiss has the name, but i believe much of the low end consumer digicam stamped with ZEISS isn't particularly great. i mean, if Rolex made a $12 watch, how good would it be? probably better than other $12 watches, but certainly not a comparison for a $5k submariner.

    that said, Zeiss makes some awesome high end lenses. The digiprimes (for 2/3" digital cinema cameras) are amazing, and run around $12k/each. The digizooms are like $60k, iirc, and also very good. I haven't use the zooms, but i've shot with the digiprimes and they are amazingly sharp.

    my $.02

  56. Re:Is the clear array sensitive across the spectru by dangitman · · Score: 1

    Since the goal of a camera is to faithfully reproduce the color in the scene as visible to the human eye, not putting an IR filter in defeats that purpose.

    Not all cameras have the same goals. An X-Ray camera is designed to be sensitive to X-Rays, not visible light. Likewise, many photographers want to use the IR spectrum - so putting an IR filter in defeats that goal. Likewise, many photographers work in black-and-white, color reproduction is not an issue for them, but tonal reproduction is.

    Why do you think that all cameras have the same objective?

    --
    ... and then they built the supercollider.
  57. Cancel it and send me the money before wasting it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The noise performance will be terrible. There is enough trouble matching and matrixing signal levels between 59% Green and the weak and noisy R and B channels. These guys want to match with a 100% clear channel, driving R and B more into the noise. Then they propose to recover G from clear by subtracting a more noisy R and B, ruining with their noise the G channel your eye is more sensitive to.

    Marketing hype: back to the drawing boards and the successful optimized volume produced parts.

  58. Because its obvious? by TheLink · · Score: 1

    Because it's obvious to anybody who is vaguely in the field.

    There's "prior art" - human eye: cones = colour, rods = black/white.

    What next? Camera people are going to put a reflective coating behind the sensors so light that goes through them will bounce and have a second chance to trigger the sensors?

    See cat eyes - been there done that.

    Now if they layered lots of semitransparent sensors, so that photons that aren't picked up by the first layer get a chance at the second, third etc, then MAYBE that's something different.

    The way I understand it, for CMOS sensors, there is a significant non-light sensitive circuit area between sensor elements, so if photons hit that area they are usually lost. But I believe there are ways of making transparent transistors, so if the circuit area between the sensor elements is made transparent and you put another layer of sensors UNDERNEATH then you can capture _some_ photons that would have previously been lost.

    But even so, how nonobvious is that? I'm not in the camera line and even I can think of crap like that :)

    --
  59. Re:Is the clear array sensitive across the spectru by sahonen · · Score: 1

    Yeah, and the Bayer-patterned sensors that this thread is about would *totally* work for any of those applications. Unless astrophotographers started using point-and-shoots when I wasn't looking, the cameras that these chips will be used in will be aimed at consumers taking snapshots.

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  60. Haven't Fuji digital sensors had this for years? by (Score.5,+Interestin · · Score: 1

    Their SuperCCD sensors have two photodiodes, one with a high sensitivity but relatively low dynamic range for the chroma component and one with a high dynamic range for the luma component. Seems like Kodak have just introduced a small variation on an existing approach.

  61. Re:Is the clear array sensitive across the spectru by dangitman · · Score: 1

    Yeah, and the Bayer-patterned sensors that this thread is about would *totally* work for any of those applications.

    Why wouldn't Bayer-patterned sensors work for infrared photography, black-and-white, or astrophotography?

    Unless astrophotographers started using point-and-shoots when I wasn't looking,

    What makes you think that only point-and-shoot cameras use Bayer patterns? High-end DSLRs also use them, as do many specialized cameras.

    --
    ... and then they built the supercollider.
  62. old idea tossed several times by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've personally seen the idea for a clear pixel idea 2x in 2 different sensor companies besides Kodak. It's not a revolution or a light bulb clicking idea. Christ, I bet 1/2 the grad students who take a class in pixel technology think they've solved the world's problems when they came up with this "original" idea.

    Both times we ran into the same problems.... color resolution is a predictable loss and not a deal breaker since the eye needs luma more then it needs chroma. You're taking pixels that you were getting color information from and taking out the color information... of course you're losing color resolution.

    Here are the biggest 2 stumbling blocks with a clear color filter... or panawhateverpixel they're calling it.... it's a clear color filter.. jesus... self important sobs...

    1) charge density - since you're not filtering out 2/3 of the color spectrum you're getting a lot more light coming into this pixel. That sounds good BUT the pixel saturates much much faster and then you get no information at all. A pixel can only hold so much charge before it maxes out. It's max charge is largely a function of the size of the pixel. When you max out the pixel all you're not getting any more info... so bottom line.. you're going to have to cut the amount of light that hits the pixel.. either by crippling the pixel relative to the other color filtered pixels or by decreasing integration time of the all the pixels. Crippling a pixel is just dumb so you decrease integration time. That means the pixels you need to get color information from are now getting even less light then you would have if you just stuck with a regular bayer pattern. So maybe your nighttime scenes look ok now since you don't care about color but your daytime scenes have either really poor color or huge areas of oversaturation.

    2) cross talk - What happens is that light doesn't hit the silicon at a 90% angle (except in the middle). Most of the time it comes in at an angle. All manufacturers use shifted microlenses to redirect the light but that doesn't solve the problem.. it only helps. There's still lots of light that hits the silicon of pixel A after it's traveled through the color filter of pixel B. In the normal bayer pattern that's not a big problem because the color filter of pixel B will filter out every color except for say green... and when the light gets to pixel A... the color filter from pixel A will block green light because of the way the bayer pattern is layed out. Even if the light hits the silicon photodiode without crossing pixel A's color filter, you're getting a greatly reduced signal so the crosstalk isn't as bad as it could be. With a clear pixel you have a problem... pixel B has a clear pixel so it doesn't filter anything out. When the light hits pixel A it's going to falsely contribute a great deal to pixel A's signal..... so now you're colors aren't just lower resolution.. they're just plain wrong.

    I haven't read their paper yet. I'm sure they've thought through these 2 problems and have probably addressed (2) by laying out the pattern differently and/or doing some whacky math to minimize the problem. However there's no chance that this is a revolutionary pixel that will change the face of cameras for the future. Hell.. it won't even matter as much as the Foveon pixel. Now that had the promise of a revolution... if it just didn't suck so bad...

    Actually, chances are they didn't think throught the problem... they probably implemented it and then said... "aw damn... so that's why nobody does it..." ... like we did... lol.