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National ID May Have Killed Immigration Bill
News.com reports that the immigration reform bill bouncing around in the Senate for the last few weeks has finally been defeated. The site speculates that, perhaps, one of the reasons it was finally defeated was a measure intended to expand the use of Real ID cards. If passed, the bill would have effectively turned the Real ID system into a National ID card. "The American Civil Liberties Union, another longtime foe of Real ID, said the Real ID requirements were a 'poison pill that derailed this bill, and any future legislation should be written knowing the American people won't swallow it.' Another section of the immigration bill would have given $1.5 billion to state officials to pay for Real ID compliance. Even if the immigration bill is goes nowhere, however, the Real ID Act is still in effect. It says, starting on May 11, 2008, Americans will need a federally-approved ID card to travel on an airplane, open a bank account, collect Social Security payments or take advantage of nearly any government service." As we've discussed before, several states have rebelled against the implementation of Real ID.
Of course, you're right, but officially that's not what happened.
Officially, they had to vote against the bill because of Real ID.. not because americans don't want to essentially annex as much of the mexican population as can make their way across the border.
don't want to upset the hispanic population. they're the fastest growing minority!
... still waiting for this free-as-in-beer free beer I keep hearing about.
I may be stupid, but I just don't get it.
Even if the immigration bill is goes nowhere, however, the Real ID Act is still in effect. It says that, starting on May 11, 2008, Americans will need a federally approved ID card to travel on an airplane, open a bank account, collect Social Security payments or take advantage of nearly any government service.What could possibly be bad about that (except administrational costs)? I don't live in USA, but I assume that you would need some sort of ID for all these things today as well (surely you can't collect social security without providing some sort of proof of who you are and that you actually are entitled to it?). What's the difference between having a federally approved ID card instead of just a state approved?
Applicants do need to prove eligibility, there is no question about it. But the ID does not prove eligibility. It simply shows, who you are (authentication), rather than what you are entitled to (authorization).
And there are many other ways of proving, you are, who you say you are — requiring the Real ID is simply a way of twisting your arm into obtaining it.
The grave "Papers, please" fear-mongering is a bit overdone — plenty of reasonably free countries require citizens to carry IDs, and even America's States often require it for things like buying alcohol. But I dislike the Federal ID as well...
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Everyone was flipping out over this bill. But I didn't hear a single person bring up "National ID". In fact, until now I didn't realize it was part of it.
The reasons I was against the bill:
400 pages is a *lot* of loopholes. If you're going to make an enforceable immigration law, it needs to be short and sweet. Which brings up...
The non-enforcement of current immigration laws on the books. We're supposed to believe you're going to enforce the new laws, after you drag your feet on the current ones?
Democrats or Republicans. They are both taking us to the same place and they are not afraid of us anymore.
I live in California. I love it here, it's a fantastic state, and I have to say you could not be more wrong about immigration. Don't you find it a little ironic to be bitching about all those *ILLEGAL*(OMGWTFLOL!?!?!) immigrants streaming over the border into our beloved state when that same state was stolen by our nation from the very country these people are immigrating from?
Don't even get me started on the illegitimacy of any white person's claim to rights in the US. It's not as if this place was empty when we got here, and it's not as if the people who were here before us were treated well, or compensated in any way for what we (as in you and I) stole from them.
Beyond that, about the only things I can see happening because of illegal immigration here are that our buildings are being built faster (maybe even better), and our lawns are being manicured. Tell me, what harm have you seen from immigrants of any kind? Wait, don't. If you're not native (as most of the illegals are) you don't really have a right to say a damned thing to anyone about where they're going to go in what was originally THEIR FUCKING COUNTRY.
So, please, don't make me get my nail studded clue bat out, and STFU.
"Dude, pounds are so metric, fuck that." - Noah
Bah. As a guy who develops federal security solutions I can say this much, you have a hell of a lot more options if you undertake aggressive measures to know the names and backgrounds of people who are within a particular perimeter.
That said, I'm not trying to advocate Real ID. I'm not a fan of the concept, I'd rather see more relaxed national security measures combined with a policy keeping your d*cks out of international hornets nests.
Yet, just because the old system was vulnerable doesn't mean an overly authoritarian replacement wouldn't resolve those vulnerabilities, albeit at the cost of civil liberties.
"Things are more moderner than before- bigger, and yet smaller- it's computers-- San Dimas High School football RULES!"
Kind of funny that I don't quite agree totally with the Republican or Democrat side on these issues.
I am in favor of cracking down on illegal immigration - not here legally, leave the country and go back home and apply to immigrate here. However, Real ID is not needed and it is a de-facto National ID card, plain and simple. There is no place for it here in the USA. There is no need for linking driver databases or the Tri-National Driver License Agreement. The Real ID should be repealed and anyone and everyone should Contact Congress and demand its repeal and do it while the Democrats control Congress. Rather than having laws that curtail civil liberties of US citizens, we need to first enforce the laws on the books instead of the typical attitude of looking the other way. Each time the gov't has a shortcoming of enforcing their laws, they pass more laws and we citizens get punished for it. This vicious cycle needs to end.
On the legal immigration issue, I have expressed interest in leaving the USA such as go live in New Zealand. However, I would do ths the legal way though. I went there after Christmas for vacation and when I went through immigration, my passport was stamped with a 3 month visitor permit with an expiration 3 months after the date of the stamp which is the arrival date. The stamp mentioned that if I was in NZ after 3 months (past the expiration date), I was subject to being deported from the country. If I wanted to be there longer than 3 months, I would have to go to NZ immigration and ask for an extention of the permit. At that point, they would extend it or not. If not, I have to leave before the expiration date. Simple rules. It is something we should expect of those who visit the USA or any other country. BTW, the permit did not allow me to earn an income there. That is a different permit which takes paperwork to get. I am too old (older than 30) to get a Working Holiday Permit like many young people get such as college students and recent graduates.
Mexico's social infrastructure is underwritten by profits from PEMEX, Mexico's oil company. Unfortunately, PEMEX's largest oil field, Cantarell, is in massive decline, according to PEMEX's CEO.
Based on a 1.9Mb/d consumption for Mexico, they will stop exporting oil in five years, say 2012... but, this would cut govt revenue around 7% per year, and shredding what little social infrastructure they have.
The result?
They will walk north.
You think Mexican immigration is bad now? Wait until 2015. I wouldn't be surprised if the USgov set up a 100 yard free fire zone on the southern border, or, they simply let everyone in, and drive the wages in the US down to Mexican levels.
RS
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
In fact According to the March 28, 2002 Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, Robert Thibadeau, director of Carnegie Mellon's Internet Security labratory, says that "the 19 terrorists on Sept. 11 were holding 63 state driver's licenses for identification."
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http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=ii
Skip ------ See the latest from http://www.anArchyFortWorth.com
I live in a 'Sanctuary City', San Francisco, where illegals are welcomed and protected. Let me tell you what this means for me.
My block is owned by the "Surenos", a Mexican gang that controls the drug trade. These guys deal drugs all day and night on my street. I wake up in the morning and go out and am welcomed by a Sureno offering some crack or meth or horse. Don't bother calling the police. They have lookouts. They'll be gone for 15 minutes then come back when the police are gone. (And this is not a run-down area. Average rent on my block is $1200 for a one-bedroom.)
The 'Surenos' are at war with the 'Nortenos' who own other streets. They shoot at each other all the time. (20 times in front of my place. Only 5 hit anyone--thank god it was rival dealers and not regular people--oh and a stray hit a government building which was the only time I saw any real police investigation.)
In the rare instances a Sureno is arrested, the police are forbidden from notifying ICE so the dealer sits in a jail cell for a few hours, is given a court date which he will never go to, and then is back in front of my place. I've seen this many times. Many times. If the Sureno in question becomes well known to the police, he becomes useless for dealing and is moved away, probably to LA and another Sureno arrives.
Sometimes at night the sound from the street is reminiscent of Tijauna (a place I've been to and loved, BTW): people yelling in Spanish across the street to each other, women singing, a boombox blaring Tejano music, catcalls and dancing. It's a party! (I can see your objection if I lived in the Mission District, a historically Mexican neighborhood, but I don't. And I'm a native, it didn't always used to be this way.)
Of course the wealthy neighborhoods do not tolerate a lick of this shit and so the police keep it to certain areas. There are no Surenos and Nortenos in front of the Mayor's house, or Nancy Pelosi's house. I guess we should really make illegals feel more comfortable here. Then America can be more like Tijuana!
I knew that this bill was going to fail, I don't blame people for supporting Lou Dobbs, the thing here is that I'm not going to leave, no illegal will do that, as I said on a different post hunger is stronger than fear and there's no doubt in my mind that the problem will be worst because we have more of the same, no work verification, no more border agents, no wall, millions of people living, working and doing everything with different names, different ID'S , things will remain the same, I know that I'm doing something wrong but I don't have any other choice. Yes I had a job in Mexico but I was making 500 dollars a month for a full time job, not very nice!! I don't work on the fields and you will never find me outside of Home Depot. I work as an IT manager here in sillicon valley, and yes there are people with college degrees in computer sciences from a 5 year university like me illegally working. (why do you think that I read slashdot) So what am I going to do now?? The same, I will keep working and keep smiling, life it's too short to be worried Peace!!
The American poor (with the exception of the homeless) have cable TV and an obesity problem. Compared to the Mexicans, they're fine. The Mexicans come here because they aspire to be poor by American standards (as opposed to Mexican standards) when they move back to Mexico.
In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
I wholeheartedly recommend that US of America quickly implement the federal ID card system for all 300-something million people, because if it is not done an even scarier system will come. You think nothing can be more orwellian than a biometric chip equipped federalized photo ID card but you are wrong, very wrong.
A well-funded israeli-british private startup is already working on a "genetic personal name" technology. The gist is that they are about three years from creating a market-ready desktop rapid DNA-sequencer and about five to six years from a portable terminal version. Their ingenious observation is that 98% of human genome is invariably identical among all 6,3 billion people of Earth so that can be disregarded for purposes of personal identification. The rest, the difference that makes people individuals is quite little data even by today's standards. Within three years that can be sequenced by a 2500USD desktop machine in a matter of minutes (their aim is 2 minutes). The result is then converted by one-way hashing (to prevent abuses) and that hashed genetic result is displayed in an SSH babble-like style format (a meaningless sequence of easy to remember words for user friendly human interpretation and processing).
You may be born John Smith or Jane Doe according to the church register, but your true name, your genetic name is displayed something like: Big Thunder Muddy Lake Bent Arrow Sitting Moose Fallen Cairn - as the company currently uses a scheme quite like native american tribal names, which they think could win popular acceptance easier. From a purely practical point of view following the chinese people's naming system with its many, short members, like Liu Xing Wang Peng Chang whatever would be better, but of course this would be impossible to push down the throat of public in the G8 countries. When you are born your swab will be immediately sequenced right at the hospital and your genetic name put into the birth certificate besides you civilian (baptism) name.
Obviously, the big news is that faking your identity will be impossible. To prove your identity you just have to spit into the swab collector and the machine will inevitably tell your true genetic name. You will be uniquely identified no matter how far away you flee on Earth. If you want a loan from a bank you have to spit and in 2 minutes they will see you are already on bad debtors' list. You wish to cheat wife and bring horny pussycat to a hotel and tell a made-up name to a clerk to deceive a suspected private eye. The hotel calls police because info does not match and so the wife finds out anyhow. You cannot travel on a fake passport as well. You become your own certificate of authenticity, with all the benefits and drawbacks associated to the system.
There are a few unsolved questions however: should the genetic name (the DNA-hash converted into babble) contain any obvious info on race and gender? Currently most, but not all, human names disclose prima facia if you are a girl or a boy, but very few disclose ethnic or racial info. European countries would probably refuse the genetic name system if it presented any race info, due to the nazi past, but USA would likely prefer it, e.g. americans are regularly told the negro or hispano ethnicity of an accused when the police show goes on TV.
Another unsolved question is: should the genetic names babble contain info which allows plain eye recognition of family relations? That is, if you are shown two full babble names and have a basic understanding of the system, should you be able to exclaim: Look these are father and son, even if you never saw them face-to-face? The obvious answer is YES and that may be wrong! For example an estimated 12% (twelve percent) of children in France are NOT from the father who is specified in their birth certificate so it could cause a lot of social turmoil. Another consideration is that many americans, especially the richer clases like to give their kids completely unrelated names, so they can make self on talent rather than fami