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John Edwards on Open Source Voting Machines

goombah99 writes "John Edwards, the presidential candidate and lawyer, is standing out from the pack by showing himself to be a bit tech savvy. In 2003 he was a guest host on Lawrence Lessig's Blog, giving his view on the imbalance between property right protection and the good of public access. As of this week he has become the first presidential candidate to support 'open source code' for election systems in addition to voter verified paper records. He's even personally using Twitter. 'Currently, software used in election systems remains the proprietary property of vendors. This situation has created a continual problem when anomalous results have been reported and independent experts are denied the ability to review how the systems work. A growing body of critics oppose this privatization of the voting system.'"

15 of 128 comments (clear)

  1. Open source election systems by dn15 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    As of this week he has become the first presidential candidate to support 'open source code' for election systems in addition to voter verified paper records.
    That's the kind of stuff I like to hear. Putting aside whether or not elections were "stolen" in the past (how can it be proven one way or another?) it's important to have as much transparency as possible in the voting system. That way we can at least reduce the likelihood of election fraud.
    1. Re:Open source election systems by Holmwood · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Honestly, I'm not sure open source voting machines make a big difference either way. Don't get me wrong: the present Diebold mess (and others) is a disaster. And I agree with the parent, transparency matters. But process transparency matters even more than open-source transparency. Why? Because open-source systems have bugs and are eminently hackable. It might well be that open-source systems indeed have fewer bugs, and are more easily fixed. But an open-source system that isn't transparent in process is a disaster waiting to be hacked. Here's a specific example. First, let's consider a closed-source, process-transparent system. A closed-source system that lets you fill in a paper ballot with a pen. You walk over to someone and hand them your ballot. It gets scanned in in front of your eyes, and seamlessly deposited in a locked ballot box in one step. (This is actually the system used for local elections in parts of Canada). Now: we have instant results, so no one can 'cheat' by holding back precincts the way even Robert Kennedy Jr. admitted the Daleys used to do in Chicago. We also have a fully human-readable ballot as a backup to be counted. There are no 'hanging chads', butterfly ballots, etc. Contrast the non-process transparent, we have an open source system that is touch-screen based. You click the candidate of your choice, and leave the voting booth. And hope there are no bugs in the system and that no one's hacked it or loaded alternative software. You've got no physical verification of your vote. Purely electronic touchscreen systems -- whether open or closed source -- are a disaster from a process transparency perspective. I believe, if you have a sufficiently robust and transparent process, it's relatively irrelevant to the general populace and the stability of Democracy whether or not the system is closed source or open source. Personally? Of course I prefer closed-source. I'm posting on Slashdot at 1am on a Friday night, am I not? But I've no desire to see open-source touch-screen voting systems with no paper ballots. Just a bad idea. In every way.

    2. Re:Open source election systems by dn15 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I understand your point. What I was said regarding transparency was more about avoiding a "black box" where nobody knows what's going on in the back end. With closed-source electronic voting, we have to trust that whoever made it isn't stacking the deck in favor of a certain candidate, or hasn't written in a back door that allows the results to be changed at will. With accusations of stolen elections flying in previous elections, that's a lot of trust to put in a company's proprietary software.

    3. Re:Open source election systems by caffeinemessiah · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Can we please stop getting all warm and cosy about candidates because they throw out "tech-savvy" words and we're supposed to be nerds? I find it more likely that Edwards is keen about open-source because the proprietary voting software is one possible scapegoat for his 2004 election loss, rather than open-source as a moral, ideological principle. The fact that he supports "open source for election systems" means crap because (a) it's in his own interest and nothing more (b) it's absolutely no indicator of his views or open-source friendly intentions IF ELECTED and (c) congress makes laws, not the president...in case anyone forgot. sure, he can veto, but this man is a LAWYER. And one who has one some pretty big (and sometimes even controversial) cases. He's goal-oriented, sacrificing his presidential stake for a vice-presidency with Kerry. Here. FOSS evangelist somehow just doesn't fit.

      It's just rhetoric, not worth a story on /.

      --
      An old-timer with old-timey ideas.
    4. Re:Open source election systems by Tim+C · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Open source voting machines are useless, unless you can verify that the software and hardware in use at the time you cast your vote is trustworthy. If you can't, it might as well be a closed-source system.

    5. Re:Open source election systems by bit01 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      process transparency matters even more than open-source transparency

      The two are not mutually exclusive as you imply. We need both.

      ---

      Open source software is everything that closed source software is. Plus the source is available.

    6. Re:Open source election systems by LaughingCoder · · Score: 2, Insightful

      ... accusations fly that the company has embedded a mechanism to ensure that the shrub wins.
      This is such an absurd theory, and yet it seems to be "accepted truth" around here. Think for one second. Who writes code? Here's a hint - it isn't upper level managers and company executives (ie those nasty Republicans). The only way something like this could happen is if low level employees (ie the engineers) were complicit. Do you think upper management *ordered* the engineers to make the code favor Bush, in which case, don't you think word would have gotten out? I mean really, in a time when CBS news publishes clearly fake memos, what makes you think a secret like this could be kept under wraps? This would be the biggest story in the history of the country. There would be fame and fortune in it for any engineer who came forward exposing the truth.

      I think any discrepancies in the Diebold voting machines can best be explained by Hanlon's razor:

      Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
      --
      The more you regulate a company, the worse its products become.
  2. Fragmenting the vote by Umbral+Blot · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Ah, fragmenting the geek vote I see. You know geeks could be a powerful voting block, if they could organize and officially support a single candidate. Unfortunately partisinship destroys this, and geeks seem willing to get in bed (so to speak) with whoever is willing to throw them a few treats (i.e. favoring Edwards just because he utterd the words "open source", not even in support of it in general).

    1. Re:Fragmenting the vote by Dhalka226 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You know geeks could be a powerful voting block, if they could organize and officially support a single candidate.

      We can't, and shouldn't. Being a geek is only one small part of who we are as human beings. Technology issues are important to us, and in that sense we could all probably get together on who supports the positions we espouse the best.

      The thing is, there are bigger problems going on in the world. We're literally at war. There's the "war on terrorism." There's the issue of things like the Patriot Act and domestic spying. There's immigration and visas. Of course on top of all these relatively new (or updated) issues, we have issues like education, health care, social security, civil liberties, privacy, economic policy, foreign policy, taxes, plus many others.

      These are all far more important and far-reaching issues, and ones where there will be a lot of different and valid view points. We should vote for the person we believe best supports our entire range of issues, rather than trying to band together to support the biggest technology geek running for office at the time.

      We should all vote our consciences in that regard. What we geeks should do, however, is band together on these technology issues where we mostly tend to agree and become an influential force on those specific topics, regardless of who we voted for in a particular election or who ended up in office.

    2. Re:Fragmenting the vote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      We're literally at war. There's the "war on terrorism."

      I take it you're using "literally" here to mean "figuratively". There is no "war on terrorism". There is simply a group of people finding any way possible to divert government funds to private industry - in this case defense contractors.

  3. e-Voting never replaces public auditable elections by fluch · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It is a principle mistake to think that electronic voting can ever replace manual vote counting. Or if it will replace it, then you will always lose the audibility.

    If you want an election to be publicly auditable, then the only (!!) way to do it is to count votes manually by hand in public.

    You can use an electronic voting machine to get a faster preliminary result, but if you give up on manual counting the electronic voting machine will become a black-box. Regardless what kind of software, security etc. you use and implement.

  4. Re:You're wrong. by Propagandhi · · Score: 3, Insightful

    He may know a great deal about health care, but I've never read an interview in which he didn't reply to that type of questioning with a non-sequitor about small government being better.

    As for both Sicko and your article, neither settles this debate as both rely far too heavily on individual cases than generally applicable logical analysis. Obviously, such analysis is difficult to express sucinctly, but to me it boils down to this: The government is motivated by getting enough votes. When it comes to healthcare it can do this by keeping taxes low and/or by providing better service. On the other hand, the corporation's primary objective is to increase share price. Which it can do only by increasing profits. Profits can be increased by growing the corporation's income and growing costs at a slower pace or by cutting costs (or a combination).

    The above are the facts of the situation, my decision is a result of a willy nilly hash of how I feel the shit breaks down in real life: The corporation, unable to grow itself at a rate faster than the economy (which it must do to add value) is forced to cut costs, even if this means worse healthcare. Rather than improve services it games the system to avoid losing market share. Thus, it fails to provide the same level of healthcare efficiency that the government CAN (note: not "does") provide.

  5. Alternative by 16K+Ram+Pack · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Anything that does not need long term recording nor fast processing nor complex processing does not require a computer.

    There are things that humans are not so good at. Financial systems allow data to be processed at high speed, to be stored in much less space for long term retrieval, transported around and for the complexity of data to be represented in many different ways. The results are required quickly. They run repeatedly, so despite a high initial cost, they pay off in the long term.

    Votes are the complete opposite. With a paper vote, you collect less than a byte of information for each person, speed is not that important (we do it in the UK with a small army of staff in each constituency who deliver the results by morning), the process is nothing more than tallying for each candidate and rarely is retrieval required (and in those cases, it's not random). You do it occasionally.

    Computer systems have problems that humans don't have. A person with a fault (stupidity, illness) has a tiny impact. Software with a fault will reflect across all results. And those human errors get picked up. If the vote is tight, there's a recount and stacks are rechecked, so any human errors are more likely to get ironed out. An electrical storm isn't going to knock out a box of ballots. A head isn't going to crash in a ballot box.

  6. Re:Article in one sentence by niceone · · Score: 3, Insightful

    election results should be safeguarded by voter-verified paper records

    There's an article from nist linked somewhere up that page (open source doesn't help..), that says something I never thought of before: even if you have a paper trail, a compromised machine could still effect the result - by (for instance) placing a candidate's name in a hard to see place or somehow making it a bit harder to vote for them. Given the fact that quite a few people only decide who to vote for in the booth and are lazy, I could see this swinging a close race.

    Not to say that a paper trail isn't a good thing, just interesting that it doesn't solve everything...

  7. Re:You're wrong. by Rich0 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    One issue with healthcare is the who-pays problem. If government offered free health care to anybody who paid at least $5000/year in Federal taxes there would probably not be an objection - most likely the level of care would end up being pretty high, and since so few people pay that much in taxes it wouldn't lead to a huge competition for treatment facilities.

    The problem is that universal care means taking care of the 95% of the population who pay little to no taxes (comparatively).

    The people who pay for health care now will still pay for health care under the new system (just in taxes). The difference is that they'll have to stand in line behind people who aren't paying much of anything. So what incentive do they have to want the new system? They pay the same, but get less in service.

    So, ultimately, those with money and power are going to oppose universal health care. If it happens it will be the result of voters who don't pay much in taxes (which would be most of them).

    The problem is that you can't make the cost of universal care go away simply by putting a zero-dollar pricetag on it. Somebody ends up paying. Unintended consequences tend to cause nasty problems if you don't think things out.

    The reality is that every nation practices capitalism. The only thing that changes is the form of the currency. Iran is a capitalist nation that trades in religious fervor. The USSA was a capitalist nation that traded in political power-brokering. The day that an MP in a socialized nation waits the same time for a hospital procedure as some guy out on the streets is the day that I recognize that they are in fact socialized. They might not pay for health care in dollars, but those with power still get preferential treatment...