eBay Bargains Soon To Be A Thing Of The Past?

ScaredOfTheMan writes to mention that, as expected, companies are utilizing the decision in Leegin Creative Leater Products v. PSKS to force the take-down of auctions on eBay because auctions are priced too low or even stating the auction itself is an infringement of their intellectual property rights.

Comments

Auctions (if fair & open) yield the RIGHT pric

[Anonymous Coward]

... in other words, the price which the buyer is willing to pay and which the seller is willing to accept.

Any other kind of pricing is rigged.

Fair Use?

[TheBearBear]

ITI's eBay "About Me" page explains that the sale of its products by anyone but an authorized dealer constitutes patent and trademark infringement

The seller wasn't even under contract. Are they saying that I can't resell a wrench (or shoe) that I just bought? It's MINE! Can the seller selling the makeup get around this by saying that the products are "used"? Like she licked the box or something.

First Sale Rights

[grahammm]

What happened to the first sale rights? Once you have bought something, are you not supposed to be allowed to sell it at whatever price you like with no interference from the manufacturer or distributor?

Re:First Sale Rights

[MoneyT]

I'm sure the companies are arguing (and perhaps not without merit) that first sale applies only to the end user or the consumer. If you purchase with intent to resell, that makes you a retailer or distributor and thus subject to different rules. There is some merit to this point of view. Consider that resellers, retailers and distributors are required by law to follow certain processes, laws and regulations. Among these are verious health regulations for the food industry.

Let's say that Evil Corp Foods sells their food product to Massive Grocery. Laws dictate that in order for Massive Grocery to leagaly sell ECF's product, it must be sold within 30 days of being recieved at an MG location. Day 29 arrives, MG marks down some of it's ECF stock to sell off and at least make some profit on. Joe Freedom buys it. It sits on his shelf for a few days, at which point he realizes he didn't really need it, but a friend does, so he sells it to his friend, at a hair more than he paid, but less than MG sells it for. So far so good, everyone wins.

But let's say that Joe Freedom's friend gets sick from the food product. Currently, it was a rotten thing for Joe Freedom to do to his friend, but not illegal and certainly (most likely) not intentional.

But let's now say that Joe Freedom is doing this every week. Buying the dicounted food product from MG and turning arround and selling it at a profit to people in his neighborhood and on craigslist. Now more people are getting sick. Not all of them, only some, but say it's still something like 10% or 20%. Shouldn't Joe Freedom be subject to the same health regulations that MG and ECF are? Don't you think that ECF might have an interest (and a valid one) in shutting Joe Freedom down since it's their product, money and their reputation on the line (even though they didn't sell it to the people that got sick)?

In a world where a company is responsible for the stupidity of people that buy their products, does it not suprise you that companies have a vested interest in tighly controling their supply line?

This is not as black and white as it seems at first glance, and certainly there is no easy answer, but just like any other freedom, first sale is not and can not be absolute.

Re:Blatant slashdotted post... karma me up scotty

[PrescriptionWarning]

i think this whole ordeal is really about resellers in general, they just need a scapegoat because it affects their online sales presence.

but whats rediculous is the fact that these products were ALREADY PURCHASED. Therefore the company has already made its bucks off of its products. Besides there's plenty of people out there who'd still rather go through an official source rather than ebay even if they spend a bit more. It really comes down to quality of product and quality of services, if someone thinks they're better off through ebay the problem is not with ebay.

Re:Blatant slashdotted post... karma me up scotty

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe I am missing something, but where is the business model in buying something for a high price and selling it for a low price? The only way this works is if the auctioners are able to purchase product for less than the minimum prices from an authorized dealer. If authorized dealers are sellling product at below their contracted minimum prices these dealers are who the manufacturers should be going after, not the auctioners.

It shouldn't be that hard to find the source of the discount goods - most manufacturers have (or should have) some type of serial or batch numbering system and should be able to trace the discount goods back to the authorized dealer.

Almost any company can do this. We do.

[Stu101]

Not me personally you understand, but the company I work for. We were having a problem with a lot of our stock (especially seconds) turning up on ebay at sometimes less than 1/3 the SRP. We would also get lumbered with damaged returns that had found their way into the channel. Because our company knows most of the customers personally, we did some digging, whois.sc is your friend, then when the companies selling the cheap/returned goods came to order more stock, there was mysteriously no stock left for them. No stock, nothing to sell, at least non of our stock. However a lot of other people who were not selling too cheaply were just "cautioned" and "its ok as long as the prices are good"

I guess it depends on your organisation, some like ours are big enough to be the one of thebiggest manufacturers of this product but small enough to know every retail customer we deal with, and can therefore control the distribution channels quite effectively.

And before anyone moans that the market should dictate prices etc, bear this in mind. If one of your customers is worth over $60,000,000 a year, and they are working on small margins, retail sites and are getting undercut by some guy flogging stuff in the back of his van/ebay, how long till they turn round and stop selling your product, and therefore you potentially just lost $60 million.

ITI vs Colon doesn't make sense

[dave562]

I don't understand how ITI is trying to sue Colon. Obviously Colon did not buy the products directly from ITI but bought them instead through a distributor. How did the distributor sell the products to Colon and make a profit, while at the same time still allowing him to resell them at less than what ITI says he is allowed to sell them for? It seems to me like ITI should be going after their distributor for breach of contract, not Colon. Or did I misread the article?

Re:Blatant slashdotted post... karma me up scotty

[Bombula]

these products were ALREADY PURCHASED

Mark my words, pretty soon we will not be 'buying' anything, but will be 'licensing' lipstick and shampoo and hotdogs and underpants for 'personal use only', just like software.

Just FIY for those of you who've been on the Moon for the last 25 years, for all the chest-thumping economic rhetoric about the free market, it is completely ignored by companies who are actually interested in profit. Why? Because you can't make a profit in a competitive market. It's as simple as that. True competition drives profit margins down to subsistence levels. If you want to haul in billions you need to have a minimally competitive market: monopoly, oligopoly or cartel.

Ebay bargains already a thing of the past

[syousef]

When I first started using Ebay you could really get a bargain, and that's why I went there. However that was a long time ago. These days you're likely to see used goods sold at 80% or more of the original "brand new" product...sometimes they go for more than brand new which makes me wonder how legit these sales are. The other thing that makes me wonder is how I started getting second chance offers. What put the nail in the coffin for me buying stuff off Ebay though was my dissatisfaction at the handling of a dispute over a very low value item. (About US20). I got broken used goods where the claim was that the goods were "still in shrink wrap". Yeah re-shrinkwrapped. The proof I had to get to get my money back was certainly not worth the $20 and the seller started threatening me with legal action over factual comments I left on his feedback instead of dealing with the issues. So I issued a chargeback on my credit card, I closed my paypal account, and haven't used my Ebay account since. That was sometime last year.

Another time I was very lucky to get a much more expensive pair of items because the seller got the address wrong. Fortunately the goods got to me, but when I questioned the seller over whether the address was obtained from my Ebay account they just got defensive. I'd have been out US350 if those goods hadn't arrived. I've heard much worse horror stories from acquaintances at work but I'm not privy to the details and don't know how true they are.

Also fee increase over the years have made it not worth it to list low value items. So these items don't show up if you're a buyer and if you want to sell them you know you're better off trying to pawn them off to friends.

In short, Ebay isn't what it once was, at least for me. It was once an excellent place to get a bargain or get rid of unwanted goods.

Re:Blatant slashdotted post... karma me up scotty

[MagikSlinger]

The only way this works is if the auctioners are able to purchase product for less than the minimum prices from an authorized dealer. If authorized dealers are sellling product at below their contracted minimum prices these dealers are who the manufacturers should be going after, not the auctioners.

That's precisely the problem. The make-up case was the woman buying them at a flea market (probably from a salon owner selling overstock) and then selling them on eBay. The autoparts case was the man buying from a wholesaler (legitimately), but the man never signed the official licensed retailer contract with the company, so he could sell at less than the MSRP.

This just confirms something to me that certain classes of laissez-faire types keep missing: the private sector can just be as bad as the government for the market. The only thing keeping them in check is ironically government regulation of the market.

Re:So much for the "free market"

[Lumpy]

Problem is Quality is relative.

I can get you a power conditioner for your home entertainment center.

One costs $199.00 the other is $3500.00

One is from tripplite, is very nice but economy priced.

The other one is from richard gray power company. and is fantastic on paper.

Unless you understand electronics and electricity. then you realize that one of them is a complete and utter scam. The salesmen even tell you to inform the buyer that it will take from 30-60 days for your capacitors in your equipment to re-learn and get conditioned to the new cleaner power. Coincidentally that time happens AFTER the return period is up.

guess which one is the snake oil garbage? Hint: not the one that is affordable.

People do not understand quality because they refuse to become educated enough to make a decision based on quality. so they look at price. High price = quality right! that Sony Viao is a far better laptop than that lenovo, it's more expensive! That Ferrari is far better than that ford,GM,toyota... it's way more expensive.

Fact: Ferrari's are garbage, having owned a 308 they are utter crap with a fancy name tag. Nice technology, but reliability is horrid they are designed for performance not reliability.

Fact: Sony laptops are crap compared to lenovo and other brands, hands down. I have trashed more Sony laptops than anything else, even the low grade Dell beats sony in longevity. Online there are far more people complaining about Sony laptops than any other brand. (well maybe gateway has more complaints)

Problem is it takes education, LOTS of education to buy smart and for quality. Education is not what the consumer wants to hear, they want to buy their new "ooh shiney!" right now.

Me getting a grey market refurb Video ipod that looks new and has a 30 day warranty for $120.00 less than retail, on ebay gives me an extra $120 for more ooh shiney.

and that is what matters.

Re:There is a great song by Rage Against the Machi

[Threni]

> The worst part of it, is people are so bloody apathetic these days that when there should be a revolt - there isn't. And so much
> money is dumped into welfare systems that enable people who don't work to buy HDTV's, cable, DSL, a Lexus, and what not without a
> care for where the money comes from. That hard working people can't even influence the system by not spending money. Cause we'll
> simply be taxed and have our money given to someone who will spend it.

I think you'll find that most people who get welfare aren't spending it on Lexus (Lexii?), HDTVs etc. If you're talking about the US, for example, official records suggest that more than 10% of the population can't afford enough food to support a healthy lifestyle.

Re:It's more complex than that

[packeteer]

You bring up some good related points but this case is still 100% clear to me. Take the example of the women selling cosmetics from TFA. If she is telling the truth and gets the items from a flea market they could be stolen or fake but that is not what the company is worried about. They are pursuing the ebay seller because they suspect that she bought the cosmetics from a salon which has an agreement to only sell in the salon they run. Therefor the salon is breaking the agreement with the cosmetics company. That would be a clearcut case of them breaking the agreement if that is what is going on, nobody would defend the salon in breaking that agreement.

The problem here that is 100% clear cut to me is that the cosmetics company is not going after the salon. The company is going after a 3rd party who MAYBE bought the cosmetics from the salon. They say that the ebay selling is breaking an agreement between 2 parties, neither of which are her. How could she possibly be responsible for an agreement that she didn't agree to? If she did get the cosmetics from the salon (which she denies) she has bought something from them and owns it. She is not responsible to uphold an agreement she did not have anything to do with.

What i see going on here is this; a cosmetic company is seeing the BATSHIT FUCKING CRAZY logic that companies are using to defend their intellectual property. They want in on some of the action and are calling their TANGIBLE GOODS an intellectual property. I know that they REALLY REALLY want to be in the market of selling intellectual property because it allows them to make all sorts of ridiculous claims in court but it just isn't the reality for them. They are selling tangible goods in the strictest definition and should not get away with this crap.

Re:It's more complex than that

[karmatic]

How is this for a thought?

Salon has agreement to sell in-store only, not online.
eBay seller walks into store, buys products, sells online.

Who is breaking any contracts? The salon in this case has upheld their end of the bargain.

Re:Chinese manufacturing

[grimwell]

The Chinese workers aren't making as much as First World workers make, but they aren't being exploited.

Whoa, there big guy. Not sure what rock you have been living under but reports & documentaries of exploited Chinese factory workers have been around for a while. Think sweatshops of turn-of-the-20th-century America but nastier and on a larger scale.

A quick google turns up 1.1 million links for the phrase "chinese exploited workers"

Go take a gander at Frontline's Is Wal-Mart good for America video. If I'm remembering right there is a bit in there about the Chinese factories and their workers.

Chinese who are employed in one of these factories make more than those who can't get a job at one

That doesn't mean they aren't being exploited. Work & safety conditions play a large part. Ask a coal miner.