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US Blocks Entry For German Black Hat Presenter
bushwhacker2000 alerts us to the dilemma of Thomas Dullien, a prominent security researcher who has been a fixture at the annual Black Hat security conference. Dullien was denied entry into the US on his way to this year's conference. Dullien, a German reverse-engineering expert known in hacker circles as "Halvar Flake," said he was blocked from entering the US on the technicality that he had (years ago) signed a contract with Black Hat as an individual, not as his company. Customs agents said he would need an H1-B visa to perform the contracted two days of training at Black Hat, and put him on the next plane back to Germany.
Because by the time the next conference happens, the US will have already shut its borders for anyone "suspect" of leaving the country to attend this conference, from attending.
That may not be the wisest of ideas:Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
Halvar's been kicked out of the US?
This is not good. It's my understanding that once you've been kicked out, it's much, much, much harder to get back in.
That leaves me rather scared. I've known Halvar for almost six years; we were in Singapore together at Black Hat Asia. He's a very intelligent engineer, doing very good research, and has done more than almost anyone to make people realize that obfuscation is not security. We, as an industry, need his voice. (A bit cynical, but seriously, we as an American industry want his talents put to work here, rather than overseas.)
Simple arguments like -- nobody could figure out how this works, they'd have to be able to read code -- have been destroyed because of Halvar's work. You may not realize it, but without concrete examples of attacks, software developers simply cannot comprehend attacks against their code that they can't do themselves. Halvar is a critical innoculation against technically inept but vaguely plausable excuses why something must be impossible.
Halvar does the impossible regularly. Seriously, he's an artist, and the American security industry is directly harmed by not being able to learn from him. What's the story going to be? That Halvar can only do training in India, and China, and in Europe? Yes, that sounds like a wonderful idea. Everyone else's code gets more secure while ours rots on the vine.
The only thing more embarrassing than this was when Xioyun Wang, the Chinese professor who cracked MD5, was denied entry to the US. Oh well, Halvar, I guess you're in good company...
--Dan Kaminsky
Hell I live here and I don't feel all that comfortable. And the gov't has my passport for renewal with no liklihood it'll get back to me any time soon.
Returned Peace Corps IT Volunteer
Many people come to the states legally each day, let alone year. If he filled the paperwork properly like he was supposed to, this wouldn't be an issue.
Arguing whether their should even be such draconian measures is a different issue altogether.
For example, suppose I get busted for selling pot in the states. Sure we can sit and talk about the need for said laws, but currently it is on the books, and that's all that matters as far as the law is concerned.
As others pointed out, he could have given the talk via the web [e.g. teleconference] which would have been perfectly legal [oddly enough]. He could have forfeited his pay, he could have filed the correct paperwork, etc, etc...
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
The US immigration/Visa regulations are well-known around the world to be something out of the dark ages.
It's not just the US: most countries have bizarre immigration laws.
The beauty of immigration laws, from the point of view of the government, is that they can be as screwed-up as you like, and no-one is ever going to do anything about it. By definition, none of people affected have got a vote, and once they have been turned away they are in no position to fight back through the legal system. So immigration laws are always arbitrary, capricious and unfair: the way all laws would be if the power of the government were not balanced by the courts.
Um, only if it's not for work.
:-)
...]. Then when I landed in Toronto, they were asking to see proof of citizenship [which a driver licenses is not]. Then they asked about 20 more questions [e.g. where were you born, how long were you in the states, etc...].
My stamp from the UK explicitly states "Employment and Recourse to public funds prohibited." I think that means I can't get paid to work there... fairly certain
And for the record, the UK customs is just as nasty as the americans. Worse yet because usually I'm so f'ing tired I just don't want to deal with them. At least in the states I'm so close to home that I can put up with their asinine questions and all that.Though to be fair I've also had just as much trouble with Canadian customs [and I'm a cannuck!].
I once did a trip in 2006 to the states [actually to AMD in San Jose] on nothing more than my drivers license [I was renewing my passport]. No trouble on the way there, but on the way back the folk at the San Jose airport didn't want to let me get a boarding card [I asked them how they thought I made it to San Jose
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
A few years back I was contracted to run 2 x 1 week 'train the trainer' technical courses in the USA based on a training course I had developed. Being an upstanding UK citizen, I applied to the US embassy in London for a H1-B visa and the application was refused for (something like) 'insufficient details of nature of visit'. When I rang the visa enquiries line, I was connected to a call centre in Scotland that said they could provide no assistance as they were not embassy staff and all they could do was send me another form - and, no, they could not put me through the the embassy.
Armed with absolutely no knowledge of what information was missing from my application, I approached American Express who have a visa checking service - I took my application to their office in London (a 1.5 hour train ride), paid £70 extra for a 'personal service' and they checked over my application, gave it their 'OK' and submitted it to the Embassy by courier for same day processing. Guess what - same rejection.
In desperation, I approached a relative who worked in a different embassy in London and explained my dilemma - they rang a contact in the US embassy who put me in touch with someone in the visa department who agreed to look at my documents and call me back. After several hours, they called and said I would need a signed letter from the US training company confirming that they needed me to run the courses as there was no-one suitable in the USA who could do it. I arranged this by fax and then was later invited to the US embassy to get my visa - by now, this was the day before I was due to fly out!
But that's not the end of it - now when visiting the USA on holiday and filling in the visa waiver form on the plane, I have to answer 'yes' to the question asking whether I have ever been refused a US visa; this now guarantees me a near 100% chance of being stopped at US immigration for an interview, which generally goes like this:
* Sit in a waiting room for an hour
* Get called into interview room
* Asked why a visa was refused
* Explain the fax I had to arrange
* Asked 'is that all'?
* Told I am free to go
And this was all well before 9/11 etc.
AT&ROFLMAO
Absolutely right! Halvar is extraordinarily talented and it will be a terrible shame if his class is canceled. But it starts on Monday, so unless they do it by video conference I can't see him making it. I still hope to see him when I fly to Vegas on Thursday, but the odds aren't good :(.
I'd like to know just what the immigration department expects US conferences to do when bringing in foreign speakers. Halvar says they wanted to treat him like an "employee" of BlackHat and get an H1-B visa. But that is a ridiculous as it is a multi-year process. Halvar thinks coming as a representative of his own German company will help, but we shouldn't have to require that foreigners incorporate just to give a simple presentation or training class here.
I'm an American who has been paid to give presentations and training in many countries, including Germany. And I've never been hassled by their immigration dept. or received any special visas. So its embarrassing and harmful that the US subjects visitors to our country to all of this crap (including the fingerprinting and pushing other countries toward RFID passports). Its no wonder that many conference producers, including BlackHat, have been increasing the number of cons held offshore. The US just isn't seen as a welcoming place.
Pardon the long rant, but I hate seeing my friends put through this. And I'm sure similar things happen to thousands of people we don't know every day. Also, if those of us in the US don't fix our system, other countries might copy it and then we'll have to deal with this shit when we travel.
-Fyodor
Insecure.Org
Commercial speakers have a vested interest in the event at which they are speaking. Typically, they rent commercial space in a hotel, advertise, charge admission, deliver the event and then leave Canada. If they are doing this for no more than five days on one trip, they can enter under R186(j). This regulation covers situations where the speaker is speaking to multiple groups, as long as the duration of the speaking events is no more than five days, not counting travel time in the case of multiple engagements. Not included in R186(j) are commercial speakers who are hired by a Canadian entity to provide training services. In these cases, other entry options must be explored including HRSDC LMOs or the NAFTA Professional category which allows for professionals to provide training services under some circumstances. So if he went to Canada and said he was being paid by a Canadian company to provide training services, he would need a visa.
Remember, there was a time when Americans were British.
There was a time when there was a balance of power.
As for the "right to travel" that isn't a basic human right recognized by any country on this planet.
Lack of recognition does not invalidate a right.
I have no real idea what the USA's involvement is.
Yes. You have made that perfectly clear. You have no idea.
Bah! Keep your damn blinders on. Your antipathy is boundless and quite tiresome. Looks like Canada has plenty of rednecks, too. That to be expected in "fairly well off countries" while enslaving those outside its border for their own benefit through things like weapon sales to oppressive governments to make sure their resources remain freely available. Life is nice on the right end of the big stick. It's good to be king, eh? Off to Hades with you.
What?
Check out his posting history...
Ne need. He has made himself quite clear already. I don't need to see any more of that dribble than I already have. He's just trolling for dollars. Never can tell if it's serious over these types of forums, but unfortunately, people do actually believe in this crap and millions are murdered because of it. He's just another animal marking his territory. He punishes people for being born in the wrong place and for being the wrong color. A real human doesn't believe in such nonsense. A real human knows true freedom and would never deny it to anybody in such an arbitrary fashion.
What?
About a month ago, some of my coworkers attended a conference on molecular spectroscopy in the US. One of the scheduled talks there was canceled because the speaker was denied entry to the US. Apparently, when the border control asked him about his profession, he said that he's an "atomic physicist".
I think if this sort of thing continues, more and more conference organizers will simply opt to hold their conferences in countries that are a bit more free.
Halvar, seriously: Don't go to the US anymore.
/. would've labeled me paranoid and anti-american for that statement. Today, I fear, most will agree and some will post details of the relevant laws.
I've avoided them ever since DeCSS (I was a named defendant) and I don't plan to change that. As I see it, for a foreign national in the computer security business, pretty much anything you do while, before or potentially-might-do-after your trip can result in them locking you up indefinitely.
And the real horror is: A couple years ago, people even on
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org