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Does Going Digital Mean Missing Music?

arlanTLDR writes "The Seattle PI is running a story about how the MP3 format is the sign of a musical apocalypse. Apparently, many top music producers are 'howling' over the fact that files in a compressed format contain 'less than 10 percent of the original music on the CDs.' Is this just sensationalist FUD, or is there something to the assertion that listening to an MP3 is like hearing music 'through a screen door?'" The article mentions that the iPod and its cheap earbuds bear some of the responsibility for rendering this degradation in sound quality less objectionable.

22 of 751 comments (clear)

  1. Darned whippersnappers by smchris · · Score: 5, Funny

    I remember AM tube radios.

    Now quit complaining and get off my lawn.

    1. Re:Darned whippersnappers by Bonobo_Unknown · · Score: 5, Funny

      Does it really matter that kids listen to crap quality recordings of crap music?

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    2. Re:Darned whippersnappers by Xonstantine · · Score: 5, Funny

      Mod parent up. Increasing the recording quality or encoding quality won't improve a lot of what passes for music these days.

    3. Re:Darned whippersnappers by rockout · · Score: 5, Insightful
      What's funny is this branch of this thread has come full circle - the OP making fun of old people always saying "It was better in my day!", and now a serious post declaring "That crap you're listening to isn't music!"

      I'm pretty sure my dad's parents said the same thing to him when they heard him playing the Beatles. In fact, I know they did, because I used that story he told me against him when he complained about me playing The Cult in the late 80's.

      Face it, you've fallen victim to the most tired, played-out cliche ever - absolutely every generation believes as teenagers that they're listening to the best music ever, and when they're old, they declare current music is "crap", and it happened in the 1920's, in the 1950's, and you get the idea.

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    4. Re:Darned whippersnappers by Basehart · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Most music today really is crap, but so was most of the music in every time period. For every Led Zeppelin in the 70's there were a thousand crap bands making crap music, same with the 60's, 50's, 40's Etc Etc..

      It's strange that you should mention The Cult because the 80's was responsible for producing some of the crappiest as well as some of the best music ever written IMHO.

      I was with a band signed to the same label as The Cult in England, Beggars Banquet records, and they seemed to pick pretty good bands making pretty good music. They had a relatively small budget so they couldn't take as many chances as the likes of RCA, WB and other majors. So you tended to get a lot of crap music basically designed for people to dance and get drunk to, build walls to, shit to and anything else you can think of apart from actually listening to music to.

      Bottom line is Britney Spears is a steaming pile of crap compared to Kate Bush, but you try telling that to kids today :-)

    5. Re:Darned whippersnappers by Pope · · Score: 5, Funny

      So I guess leaving the 10% left as what happens with MP3/AAC encoding is perfectly fine! QED

      --
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  2. Sounds we can and cannot hear. by Tama00 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You will be surprised at just how much of that 90% of sounds produced our ear cannot understand.

    1. Re:Sounds we can and cannot hear. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Trust me, you cannot tell the difference between a 320kbps mp3 and a CD.

    2. Re:Sounds we can and cannot hear. by dgatwood · · Score: 5, Informative

      I don't know about guitars (I've never heard one compressed that wasn't too buried in the mix to identify), but I can't stand the way AAC screws up cymbals. Anything that naturally has no tonality tends to be massacred by lossy compression. If you can't hear the difference, you probably can't hear high frequencies.... It is annoying to me even with cheap earbuds in a quiet room. In noisy environments, I can't hear the difference, of course, thanks to the masking effect of everything else. Whether you can hear the effect or not depends largely on whether you are actively or passively listening to the music.

      Honestly, I don't mind the earbuds. The proximity to the ear makes up for most of the low frequency loss associated with a small diaphragm, so they sound acceptable. They aren't God's gift to man or anything, but they aren't nearly as awful as you make them out to be. Now computer speakers... those tend to be universally abhorrent. No bass response whatsoever, so they sound like tin can telephones.

      As for the $20 speakers with subwoofers, they get rave reviews mainly because most people have never heard good speakers. Compared to a set of 6 inch drivers, yeah, they probably sound great. You actually have deep bass response. Compared to a pair of properly tuned 3-ways with 12 inch drivers, they sound like ass because you have probably a couple of octaves of upper bass to lower mids that are mostly missing because it's too high for the sub to generate it and too low for the tiny 4 inch (or smaller) main speakers to generate it. Compared with my studio monitors, they're laughable. The problem is that most people have never heard speakers with drivers over about six inches... maybe eight. Oh, yeah, and most people don't have any hearing above 14 kHz anyway, so those tinny little speakers sound good to them. :-D

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    3. Re:Sounds we can and cannot hear. by antek9 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And maybe, just maybe, encoding everything in JOINT STEREO by default is the root of most of the evil the audiophiles seem to hear in MP3s? For most encoders and audio software you'll have to deliberately turn off that very feature that will cripple most of the finer stuff going on within the stereo spectrum.

      I mean, what's the point of recording at a bitrate of 320kbps if you don't do it in true stereo? The overall effect may well be that sort of 'listening through a screen door' that the submitter was talking about. Joint stereo is okayish at 64kbps, but please turn it OFF at anything higher. If you are to listen to the result on anything better than an iPod, that is. Don't forget that the audio outs of an iPod are not that much better than the cheap ear buds anyway.

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    4. Re:Sounds we can and cannot hear. by dabraun · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Trust me, you cannot tell the difference between a 320kbps mp3 and a CD.


      Seriously, the people who say they can tell the difference would never pull it off in a blind comparison. They convince themselves that they can tell the difference. Heck at 500kbps or so you can have lossless - and the music industry would still claim you're only getting 50% of the music on the CD because it suits their interests to make that claim.

      I'd like to see an mp3-type format encoded against 24/96 source material. Odds are that even at ~256kbps you can get better-than-CD quality if you use better-than-CD source material. Sure, the 24/96 source sounds better, but you can't actually buy that anywhere so it's a moot point.
    5. Re:Sounds we can and cannot hear. by fyngyrz · · Score: 5, Insightful
      hell i have friends who like the over compression of FM radio.

      Just for the record - the FM radio modulation process, transmission process, and demodulation process do not compress. Compression today is applied as a pre-RF step to the audio itself, and then that audio is sent to the transmitter. There is no technical reason whatsoever you could not have a compression free FM broadcast.

      The reason that FM stations today use compression is because some (idiot) somewhere decided that it was a "bad thing" to "not be as loud" as other stations.

      FM can reproduce 20 Hz to 15 KHz with low noise and surprising dynamic range when the transmission and reception chains consist of high quality components and signals. Especially in mono, but stereo doesn't sacrifice too much.

      None of this solves the problems that (a) there are very few FM stations on the air that actually use the medium with the idea of providing the listener with a high fidelity experience, and (b) there are very few FM stations on the air that offer programming that consists of much more than a severely restricted playlist. I miss the days of progressive rock stations like WNEW in New York; DJ's like Allison Steele and Chris Fornatelle (spelling could easily be wrong there) would dig into the station's library and pull out something you'd never even heard of and then tell you all about the people involved. At the same time, at the other end of the dial, there were classical format stations in or near NYC that were absolutely compression-free; you could count on them for excellent audio.

      Personally, I play CDs or Sirius satellite radio into a reference Dolby FM transmitter (25 uS) and pipe it around the house using 75-ohm coaxial cable, then into various tuners from Marantz. I have a 2130, a model 10, a 2120, and a couple of receivers, a 2325 and a 2285B. I can't hear much above 15 KHz any longer anyway; I'm 51, a rock musician, and the ears are definitely going. Not that most recordings provide much audio above 15 KHz, especially in the rock genre.

      Otherwise, I'd have one FM station to listen to which plays a horrifying mix of country and pop, compresses the living daylights out of all of it, and intersperses the musical content with the farm report, insanely badly produced local commercials, and (mostly incorrect) weather predictions. The station is automation based, and commercials cut off the news announcers in mid-word, music cuts off commercials, and so on in every combination you can imagine. If there's a worse way to run a radio station, I'm afraid my imagination fails me. In this part of the country, you learn to be very grateful for Sirius and XM, believe me.

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    6. Re:Sounds we can and cannot hear. by X0563511 · · Score: 5, Informative
      --
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    7. Re:Sounds we can and cannot hear. by fgodfrey · · Score: 5, Interesting
      I've done it. It's pretty darn easy. Listen to the cymbals and the kick drum. If the cymbals don't sound like distinct hits and the kick sounds a little muddy, it's an MP3. You're going to need a decent sound system to do it (no, not a $50k system, but computer speakers or headphones won't do it - a $500 home stereo system is probably good enough). The difference between MP3 and CD is also very evident in sound effects. Due to screwing up my iTunes import settings, I ended up doing a sound design in MP3. When I got to the theater, it sounded like crap and I had to redo almost all of it once I realized why.


      Now, if you can't hear the difference, by all means, keep listening to MP3's. Heck, I usually listen to them. However, most people can tell the difference in a blind test.

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  3. If it contains only 10% of the original music ... by trolltalk.com · · Score: 5, Funny
    Shouldn't they only be charging a dime per download, instead of a buck?

    ... and shouldn't any copyright violations be for a lot less, since only 10% was copied?

  4. Whining. by Kadin2048 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's just whining. There have been numerous double-blind ABX tests, many done by the folks over at Hydrogenaudio.org, comparing MP3 files to AIFFs, and with the right codec and right bitrates (depending on the type of source material), it's possible to get an MP3 that only the most refined ears can discriminate from the original. [1]

    Of course, it's quite possible to make an MP3 that sounds like a tin-can telephone with one end held underwater, and I'd argue that many of the consumer-ripped files floating around the P2P networks fall into this category, but these files only exist *because* there aren't legitimate, professionally-made, DRM-free MP3s. (And because some people like getting stuff for free and don't much care about the quality when they do. But I do think there is a market for and profit in digitally-delivered music, for the people who can do it right.)

    As more music begins to be distributed as MP3s, sound engineers will doubtless (if they have not already) begin studying the codecs and encoding procedures in order to wring the most quality out of a particular bit rate. Many amateurs and enthusiasts have already done this, and there is a sizable body of work devoted to the topic -- including the LAME encoder itself.

    Also, looking towards the future, while CDs have pegged the standard for digital music as 2 channel, 44.1kHz, 16-bit PCM, there is no reason why an appropriately-crafted MP3 file cannot *exceed* it in terms of quality. The Apple iPod already supports (slightly) higher sample rates, I believe, and if consumers desire it [2], there's no reason why modern digital formats cannot encapsulate very high-definition audio.

    The only people who I hear whining about MP3 are those with either an ulterior motive and a desire to try and keep the industry from moving away from a distribution model that revolves around physical objects, or those who just don't understand the technology. (There are a very small core of audiophiles and techies who seem to dislike MP3 because they prefer some other format, usually either for ethical/political reasons or technical ones, and there certainly is an argument in favor of using lossless formats in lieu of MP3 for distribution, but overall MP3 strikes a good balance between quality and portability. [3])

    [1] One 'competition' that pitted serious self-described audiophiles against modern codecs is described in detail here: http://www.geocities.com/altbinariessoundsmusiccla ssical/mp3test.html. While well-trained ears could discriminate between 128kbit MP3s and PCM, they could not reliably tell the difference between 256kbit and PCM, on average. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

    [2] Which is a big 'if.' The buying public, to date, has shown little interest in high-definition audio as such. The only exception to this is multichannel audio, but that only in movie soundtracks for surround sound.

    [3] This does raise the question, though, of why the legitimate music-download sites don't take a cue from the late, great, AllOfMp3.com and just allow the *customers* to choose their format of choice for their downloads. There's really no particular excuse not to at least offer a few different quality/size options, particularly for popular music that is going to be enjoyed in a variety of settings (automobiles, portables, home stereos -- each lends itself to a slightly different EQ and compression).

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  5. It's true, but... by TheCoders · · Score: 5, Insightful

    While the 90% figure may be overblowing things a bit, there is a noticeable loss of sound fidelity when converting to a compressed format. In fact, it's actually quite impressive that the loss is not even more noticeable than it is, and that is a testament to the brilliance of the original MP3 algorithms, which have been tweaked and honed to make the quality even better.

    The fact remains, however, that most listeners, in most situations, don't care. For one thing, popular music has, since the 50s, been designed for listening to on cheap equipment. The dynamic range is enormously compressed, the sounds are often fuzzy to begin with, the voices are straight front and center. This can explain the dwindling popularity of classical and jazz, and the rise of the louder, simpler, more beat-oriented music like rock, rap, or pop. Note that I'm not saying the music is of lower quality, but that it can be reproduced "faithfully enough" on lower quality equipment.

    I don't have any statistics, but I would bet that most music listening happens while the listener is doing something else: driving, working out, coding python scripts, etc. In those circumstances, an average listener is not going to notice a little swishiness in the cymbals, or lack of crispness on the trumpet's timbre.

    Those who care (like me) will shell out the extra bucks for higher fidelity. Those who don't care, which are in the majority, will use whatever technology is most convenient.

  6. It's about the music... the MUSIC! by wall0159 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This reminds me of the fuss that currently exists over HD-TV. People gasp at the quality of the picture, but don't notice the lack-of-quality of the content. It's the same with music - people focus too much on the equipment, and ignore the music.

    I've got a beautiful violin recording from the 20s or 30s. It's very low-fi, scratchy as hell, but the playing is magnificent. Ask any jazz fan whether they'd prefer to listen to a well-used John Coltrane LP, or Kenny G in 192 kHz / 24-bit, DVD-A.

    People, listen to the music -- not the equipment! Otherwise you're a hifi-collector, not a music fan.

  7. Re:Damn by TheMeuge · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Clearly, all that hard work to polish the recorded sound isn't really very important to people.

    Have you heard any recent CD?!
    I'd say that 90% of all new CDs have less than 6dB of dynamic range... and clip at every crescendo. I think they're mastered by people whose previous careers had them working with jackhammers without protection.
    We can record in 24/192 all we want, but compression of the final product is rather moot when most of the damage was inflicted during mastering... where the "engineers" make the song as loud as humanly possible, so it could be used to silence thoughts while blasting 100dB through $5 earbuds.
  8. Re:Damn by Saige · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's not the engineers that are doing the mastering that are causing recent albums to be run that loud. It's the record folks that don't want their music to sound "quieter" than the competition. The engineers are just as pissed about it, but if they don't do it, someone else will, and they need to work, so they do it.

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  9. Missing the important part of this article by aslvrstn · · Score: 5, Funny

    FLAC: ... reduces storage space by 30 percent to 50 percent, but without compression. Think of the possibilities! 50% smaller files, without compression! Think how small we could get the files if we compressed them!
  10. Re:192KBPS seems OK by scalarscience · · Score: 5, Informative

    CDs are heavily filtered above 16KHz-18KHz to avoid digital aliasing and this affects the sound. It's why musicians say that vinyl sounds better.
    Actually most vinyl masters are typically filtered above 12-16KHz (depending on the mastering engineer and the cutting depth, the number to be run from each master plate, etc) as well. In fact Vinyl's low end is also 'rolled off', and then put through a filtering process twice (known as the RIAA curve) to insure that the low frequencies are attenuated on the vinyl plate then restored on playback. I would say that vinyl and analogue recording mediums in general tend to 'gel' the sounds together into a cohesive whole, while digital mixing and reproduction systems (CD for instance) tend to retain the separation between sounds and in some cases even increase this separation. Part of this is the drastically reduced noisefloor in digital systems (the higher noisefloor in vinyl playback would be considered to have a "masking effect" on things the ear might otherwise hear for instance) and part of it is due to the way Tape and analogue circuitry tends to have a compression effect on the dynamics of the overall waveform. Compression in this case means reduction of transients rather than loss of 'bit' data. There are other aspects to this discussion that the article completely ignores as well, such as the rediculous overuse of dynamic compression & limiting in modern commercial music, the fact that Pro Tools and modern systems are often used to simply 'fix' poor performance which (imo) still translates into a more lackluster product than one where the artist(s) got it 'right' in a single or a few takes, with little or no need for editing. Also note that Wav & Aiff are simply two different ways to store audio, one popularized by Windoze the other by Mac. Either format is perfectly suited to storing whatever data you have present in a variety of encodings, samplerates and bit-depths.