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Green Cars You Can't Buy

Posted by samzenpus on from the you-can't-handle-the-lack-of-pollution dept.

Geoffrey.landis writes "Auto industry blogger Lawrence Ulrich notes that Honda is now making a "Partial Zero Emissions Vehicle" (or PZEV for short) version of the 2008 Accord, an all-new vehicle that is redesigned to meet California emission standards. He notes "So, just how green is a PZEV machine? Well, if you just cut your lawn with a gas mower, congratulations, you just put out more pollution in one hour than these cars do in 2,000 miles of driving." But the irony is that it's actually illegal for automakers to sell these green cars outside of the special states they were designed for! Apparently, anybody selling one of these ultra-green vehicles out of the correctly-designated venue — which means either California, or seven northeast-states with similar pollution laws — "could be subject to civil fines of up to $27,500. Volvo sent its dealers a memo alerting them to this fact, noting that its greenest S40 and V50 models were only for the special states.""

16 of 528 comments (clear)

  1. Partially Zero? by 427_ci_505 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What the fuck does that even mean?

    1. Re:Partially Zero? by archen · · Score: 5, Funny

      and more importantly, can you divide by partial zero?

    2. Re:Partially Zero? by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Funny

      Well, it's a bit like fuzzy logic. When a zero is sufficiently large, it's almost as much as a little bit of one.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:Partially Zero? by ePhil_One · · Score: 5, Interesting
      I suspect its invented Marketing for the next step beyond "Ultra Low Emmissions". Maybe emissions are below the point of measurement?

      But the article is lame because it doesn't give any of the reasons why these cars may be illegal outside these few states; my understanding is that Californian laws are be definition stricter than US EPA regulations because no matter what, the US EPA regs apply too. Most makers gave up building a special "California Car" ages ago and just make 1 clean model to keep mass market efficiencies. It does hint that these cars cost a premium that is being absorbed by the makers, which is why they might want to restrict sales, but thast not the claim of the article. Keep in mind PZEV has nothing to do w/ economy or CO2, it has to do with byproducts like CO & NO2.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisted little posts, all alike.
    4. Re:Partially Zero? by multipartmixed · · Score: 5, Funny

      > can you divide by partial zero?

      Of course you can. That's the Fundamental Theorem of Calculus.

      --

      Do daemons dream of electric sleep()?
    5. Re:Partially Zero? by Kohath · · Score: 5, Funny

      Yes, but only a little bit.

  2. Why are they illegal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I RTFA and the author fails to tell why it's illegal in most states. Just dangles the fact that it is in front of us.

  3. Folgers? by MajinBlayze · · Score: 5, Funny

    Ah, the smell of technology innovation being stifled by stupid legal action in the morning.

    --
    "Hate is baggage. Life's too short to be pissed off all the time." Danny Vinyard -American History X
  4. Stop it. by Oswald · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Just stop talking about this fucking article. There's a reason nobody can figure out what is going on here, and the reason is shitty reporting. If the idiot writer can't make any more sense than this, ignore him and wait for somebody with a clue to cover the story.

  5. New MSN Autos columnist puts his foot in it by Yath · · Score: 5, Informative

    Right, "Green Cars Automakers Won't Sell You". Possibly the most misleading headline you'll see all week.

    These vehicles are heavily subsidized by the states where you may sell them, and they're interested in getting their investment back. California lays out wads of cash for some cleaner vehicles, so California wants them driven in California (for example; there are several other states involved). The automakers are not allowed to sell them anywhere else. It's that simple.

    If these vehicles were produced without subsidies, they'd be so expensive that no one would buy them. Lawrence Ulrich seems to think that automakers should make a highly expensive clean-burning vehicles on their own and sell them at a loss, perhaps so they can go out of business in two or three years.

    At least Slashdot used a non-misleading headline instead. Kudos for that.

    --
    I always mod up spelling trolls.
  6. very simple reason for it by netsavior · · Score: 5, Interesting

    California gives automakers huge grants for making CA only cars. The cars are subsidized by the state, so if you sell it in another state you are basically taking tax dollars away from California residents (both in the Car's sale, and in the state's funding of the car manufacturing/R&D).

    I am not saying it's right, but it is not 100% rediculious.

  7. Re:It's a contradictory sounding term... by Albanach · · Score: 5, Informative

    Partial zero emission vehicle means that during some portion of time while the vehicle is operating, it does not produce any emissions.
    I think you might be wrong here. I have a 2.3L Focus outside that has PZEV stickers on it, and I'd hazard a guess that the only time it doesn't produce any emissions is when the engine is turned off.

    The PZEV actually means that for some of the many types of emissions normal combustion engines make, these cars have zero emissions. PZEV vehicles have zero evaporative emissions from the fuel system, but PZEV doesn't address things like CO2 emissions. Hence they are partially zero - zero in some areas, not zero in others.

    A Prius is an AT-PZEV because it sometimes runs with a standard combustion engine and therefore faces all the normal emissions such an engine would produce. To further enhance its green credentials, Toyota made the combustion engine meet the Californian PZEV standards.

    The article itself is a bit misleading. A PZEV vehicle can be sold outside the listed states, it just can't be marketed as such, as this would also mean it offers other things such as an enhanced emissions warranty for 150,000 miles. So my Focus would be a PZEV vehicle if I'd bought it in California. Having bought it elsewhere it has exactly the same engine but without the warranty advantages.
  8. But waitaminute... by maillemaker · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Look, if Californians want to state-subsidize cleaner automobiles, that's fine.

    But how does letting other people buy the same kind of car in other states hurt their investment? The people of California would /still/ get to buy cleaner cars. And in fact, if other people could buy them, too, maybe the price would go down and California would not have to subsidize them so heavily.

    Now I could see California saying they will only pay a subsidy for cars sold IN California, which would mean they would cost more in other states that don't subsidize. But I don't see why they would care.

    --
    A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
  9. Re:It would be unfair competition by kindbud · · Score: 5, Funny

    Does anybody else wonder whether the US government has been taken over by somebody (possibly giant alien lizards) who are deliberately trying to ruin the country?

    The Republican party believes government is incompetent to provide many basic public services and therefore underfunds it and runs it incompetently in order to prove their point.

    --
    Edith Keeler Must Die
  10. Re:Not just that, but many Euro diesels with 80+ m by QuantumRiff · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Yes, but a 50Mpg diesel is a Volkswagon Jetta, wheras a 50MPG gas car is a old Geo Metro. The diesel has a hell of a lot more power. A better comparison would be to compare the same car... Ie, a 17MPG Jeep liberty with its 3.9L engine, or a 30MPG Jeep liberty 2.4L Diesel (that they only produced for 2 years in limited quantity, when will they bring them back???) There is more CO2 in a gallon of diesel, but in the same car, the diesel will get you almost 2 times as far, so unless it has 2 times the CO2 per gallon (it doesn't) diesel is the better choice. Then you get into the fact that diesel uses much less "refining", so less energy and chemicals to create it. Or the fact that the engines last much longer, and are simpler, so less waste from the cars "wearing out" and getting replaced, etc...

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    What are we going to do tonight Brain?
  11. CA Clean Auto classes (Cleanest to Least Clean) by jcurran · · Score: 5, Informative

    From driveclean.ca.gov:

    ZEV
    Zero Emission Vehicles have zero tailpipe emissions and are 98% cleaner than the average new model year vehicle.

    AT PZEV
    Advanced Technology PZEVs meet SULEV tailpipe emission standards, have a 15 year / 150,000 mile warranty, have zero evaporative emissions and include advanced technology components. For example, a plug-in hybrid or a compressed natural gas vehicle would qualify in this category.

    PZEV
    Partial Zero Emission Vehicles meet SULEV tailpipe emission standards, have a 15 year / 150,000 mile warranty and have zero evaporative emissions.

    SULEV
    Super Ultra Low Emission Vehicles are 90% cleaner than the average new model year vehicle.

    ULEV
    Ultra Low Emission Vehicles are 50% cleaner than the average new model year vehicle.

    LEV
    Low Emission Vehicles are the least stringent emission standard for all new cars sold in California in 2004 and beyond.