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Motley Fool Says RIAA Hitting a Brick Wall

NewYorkCountryLawyer writes "The Motley Fool business site says that the RIAA's litigation campaign is in the end game. Monday it reported that 'the music industry's lawsuit crusade against defenseless college students and housewives appears to have hit the skids,' predicting that the RIAA's tactics are 'all about to change.' Today the Fool confirms that 'the change is happening in Internet time, which is somewhere between "instantly" and "yesterday,"' noting that the RIAA's abandonment of its 'making available' theory shows that the end is near. And this is before the RIAA faces its first jury trial, set to begin Oct. 2 in Duluth."

19 of 228 comments (clear)

  1. Why did they make these mistakes? by Maximum+Prophet · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Why did the RIAA target people who could defend themselves? i.e. the inocent.

    Couldn't they have found a few people who were guilty, guilty, guilty and taken them all the way, and nailed them to a tree? Wouldn't it have been a better strategy to just drop any suit if the defendent was in the least bit sympathetic?

    --
    All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
    1. Re:Why did they make these mistakes? by rde · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Why did the RIAA target people who could defend themselves? i.e. the inocent
      I dunno... cos they're idiots?

      Actually, that's probably being slightly unfair to the RIAA (something that's quite hard to do). As the article pointed out, it's not enough to prove that people were making files available; they had to prove that the files were actually given away. They could, I suppose, download some of those files themselves, but that raises a few intriguing questions of its own; if the RIAA - which presumably acts on behalf of the Record Label who owns the copyright - downloads a song, does this constitute illegal sharing? After all, you're only giving it to its legal owner.
      And if they get a third party to download that song, does that third party become complicit in the crime for downloading a song illegally?

      Obviously IANAL or I'd know the answer to these questions.

    2. Re:Why did they make these mistakes? by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Why did the RIAA target people who could defend themselves? i.e. the inocent. Couldn't they have found a few people who were guilty, guilty, guilty and taken them all the way, and nailed them to a tree? Wouldn't it have been a better strategy to just drop any suit if the defendent was in the least bit sympathetic? The RIAA's "investigation" is so unscientific, poorly conceived, and inept, that I would say it is calculated to catch anybody BUT large scale copyright infringers.
      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
  2. Scare tactic by Necreia · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Scare tactic.

    The idea is "If they will sue a grandmother without a computer AND is blind... what the hell would they do to ME??"

    1. Re:Scare tactic by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I think the real issue here is the RIAA's inability to see that the whole idea is a bad business move. I agree. When an investment site like Motley Fool gets hold of it, that should tell the shareholders something. Also, NPR's business show, "Marketplace", did an excellent 3- part series last week on the wrongheadedness of the RIAA's litigation campaign, and of alternative business models it should be exploring instead.
      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
    2. Re:Scare tactic by porcupine8 · · Score: 5, Interesting
      Even if you understand that it's wrong and agree that the RIAA should be compensated when they do sue someone who is guilty, that doesn't mean you agree that they're asking for reasonable compensation. $750 per song? Do you really think that every time a person puts a song in their shared folder, they deprive the RIAA of an average of 750 legal downloads? Particularly if no one has to have ever downloaded the song from you to get sued?

      If they were asking for $5 or $10 a song - and being more careful about who they sued - sure there'd still be some people claiming they should never ever sue anyone, but I think many people would be at least a little more sympathetic. At least I'd only think they were being silly and self-destructive for clinging to an outdated business model, rather than seeing them as extortionists and fear-mongerers. And given that they're settling for $3000, you can't tell me that they actually need the whole $750/song for legal fees, etc. They use it as a scare tactic, plain and simple, so they can get their $3k with no fuss and muss.

      --
      Warning: Apple/Nintendo fangirl. Likes her electronics cute & cuddly. May be rabid.
    3. Re:Scare tactic by alexgieg · · Score: 5, Interesting

      One should not need to agree, that such copying amounts to theft, to understand, that it is wrong regardless.
      Not really. I myself was a VERY strong opponent of copyright infringement until ten years ago. I only changed my mind after I got hold of economics studies, more specifically in the classic liberal (not the US-kind of social liberalism) and libertarian traditions, then advanced into the realm of political theory.

      There are A LOT of arguments out there against copyright and patents, ranging from the economic to the historical, from the social to the political, and dismissing all of this on the basis that "copying is obviously wrong" amounts to nothing more than a very crude oversimplification.

      If you want a simple example, here's the historical one. Since the beginning of recorded history up until the first half of the Modern Age, the copying was considered by EVERYONE, from writers to actors, from musicians to singers, from inventors to manufacturers, as an obvious right. Libraries, for instance, existed for thousands of years, and beyond allowing you to take a book and read it, they all had full teams of scribes who would copy any work a customer wanted, or, if he so wished, would allow him to do the copy himself. Everyone interested in any intellectual production did this, and everyone felt it was the natural way of things.

      It was only half-way through the Modern Age, and at first only in certain regions on Europe, that thing started to change. It took centuries, literally, for our system of "copying rights" to develop and turn in 180 degrees how we handled the subject. And while many industries organized and flourished around and from this system, it never, ever, ceased feeling unnatural to those taking contact with it for the first time.

      What the Internet, and the "pirates" in it, are doing, thus, isn't so much contrary to the way things ought to be, but quite the opposite, a return to way things always were. A way that was artificially twisted 400 or so years ago, but is now being slowly and painfully put straight again. In this matter, they're surely a bunch of very conservative old-timers as one rarely sees. ;-)

      If this is the case, how can they be "wrong"? They're "wrong" only from the very limited perspective of a limited subset of modernity and most of the contemporaneity. From the perspective of the (25 times longer) Ancient and Medieval worlds, their actions are pure common sense.

      If they win, and they will, the Copyright Age will be seen as nothing more than a very small period of time sandwiched between the two huge Copyrightless Ages: the one that existed before, and the one that is starting right now.

      The faster the "progressive" copyright-defenders accept this, the better. For everyone.
      --
      Conservatism: (n.) love of the existing evils. Liberalism: (n.) desire to substitute new evils for the existing ones.
  3. Paradigm Shift by Puff+of+Logic · · Score: 4, Interesting

    While the change (or absence) of the RIAA's boilerplate argument is certainly notable, I'd suggest that a far more weighty indication of their losing position is Amazon's new DRM-free music service. The pace of the publishers' relatively tentative movement into DRM-free distribution (i.e. one in which the customer is shown a reasonable amount of trust and respect) seems to stem from a strange combination of lingering distrust and a desire to save face on the part of the record execs. Hopefully we'll see a rather more enthusiastic embracing of DRM-free digital distribution as time goes on.

    That said, many thanks to the folks who have been fighting the good fight against the RIAA and their attack dogs. There's no doubt in my mind that we wouldn't been seeing Amazonmp3 or iTunes Plus without their efforts.

    cheers.

    --
    P.P.S. I'm doing Science and I'm still alive.
  4. More Meat by phoenixwade · · Score: 4, Interesting

    the RIAA still has some wind left in it's sails, but it's certainly winding down.

    The Jury trial next week is going to be another of those fun trips through surreal litigation land, I bet. I expect a lot of time spent on who actually owns the copyrights to the songs (which, Although I haven't read any reference to it yet, means the RIAA lawyers will have to identify the the song, AND but the actual copyright holder for the specific recording or performance itself. That should layer a new level of complexity.. Imagine the RIAA identifying some tune that is covered by a few bands:
      first; prove it was an audio file and was copyrighted material.
      Next; Identify the specific performance, because copyright extends to the artist performing, not just the composer/writer.
      Then; you get to establish chain of copyright ownership through the various library transfers and company mergers through the years.
      Finally; convince a jury that all the things you assert along those items are true.

        I point this out, because I see a lot of evidence concerning screen shots, and such, but don't actually see where actuall files are used as evidence, only lists of files and logs. I'm sure, since forensics on Hard drives have occured, that there have been instances of found files that are identified... But that seems pretty rare.

    I'm still trying to decide if I am hoping that the chain of ownership is broken or not. If it's broken, there is a precedent for dismissal of a lot of cases, and additional reasons to demand a jury trial that it seems unlikely the RIAA can win (whether the defendant is actually guilty or not). On the other hand, if they can establish copyright ownership, then there is a case for misuse of copyright. My understanding is that "misuse or copyright" voids the copyright. This is all pure speculation, of course, but it doesn't seem like it would take more than one case where copyrights were removed to halt virtually every case out there, since such a judgment would quite literally turn the industry on it's ear overnight.

    I believe that the industry is going to (has, though some companys don't seem to understand that yet) change. I supposed, in a twisted way, we should thank the RIAA, ultimately, their actions have changed the landscape faster than it would have otherwise, I think.

    --
    A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
  5. Re:Oblig Maria Bamford by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Duluth in the house!!! Yep. Can you imagine Cary Sherman, white shoes and all, walking into that courtroom? I don't think so.
    --
    Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
  6. Re:They've created a pirate culture by Mongoose+Disciple · · Score: 5, Interesting

    That's a really interesting point. I wonder if we'll be talking about this era of record company business in fifty years the same way people say that the alcohol prohibition era in the U.S. gave organized crime its first big growth.

  7. Re:They've created a pirate culture by ProteusQ · · Score: 2, Interesting

    it's pushed a lot of people into the pro-piracy side who wouldn't have been there otherwise

    I'm one of them. Politically, I lean to the right on most issues. On copyright-related issues, my views have become left-wing, even though my views have not essentially changed in the last fifteen years. But certain corporations, backed by pro-business and pro-IP Republicans and Democrats, have decided that they own you once you buy one of their products. Oh yes, and they own what they own forever. How else can you respond to this but by opposition?

    I've moved to downloading from Magnatune and recently Amazon's DRM-free mp3's because I do not enjoy breaking the law (sad as it may be at time) and because I want the artists to receive royalties. But every so often the temptation rises to download a movie that's not even for sale. I'd love to hear a cogent explanation as to why this ought to be a crime -- I want to hear the moral basis for the argument that I am causing a loss of revenue when no revenue stream exists.

    The Motley Fool ought to help reach the business people who actually want to make a profit rather than attack their customer base. It's time for a world where, with just a few mouse clicks, you download a movie from Tri-Star, a commentary from Roger Ebert, and cover art by some guy named 2Cool who lives in northern Finland, mix them together, and voila... a custom, legal, remixed DVD.

  8. Re:They've created a pirate culture by kilgortrout · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I don't see any evidence that people inherently understand and want to respect copyrights. To a certain extent, copyright law is generally out of step with what most people feel is right, i.e. most people feel they have the right, or at least should have the right, to copy their music and share it with their friends. This has only become an issue when technology gave people the power to share their music with millions of online friends. Copyright laws have only been tolerated in the past because the routine petty infringements were ignored.

  9. Maybe I'll buy some more CDs now by Wesley+Everest · · Score: 4, Interesting

    A funny thing. When napster first came out, I downloaded a bunch of songs, which got me excited about music in general and several bands in particular. In the year before napster got shut down, I probably bought a dozen CDs. Then for quite a while I lost interest in music, or just played the music I had. Then I got broadband and an iPod and discovered eMule, and ended up buying another dozen or so CDs after a few years of not setting foot in a record store. The the RIAA started cracking down, and well, I just sort of lost interest in music again.

    What a bunch of morons.

  10. It's About Time by Luscious868 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I always thought the "making available" claim was dubious at best. If I'm reading a book in a restaurant and I leave it there by mistake I can be sued by it's author because I've made the content available for someone to copy? That's absurd. That example is a vast oversimplification of the issue at hand but that's essentially what the RIAA was arguing and it's laughable.

    Copyright is exactly that, your right (or lake thereof) to make a copy of something. Making something available to be copied is not the same thing as actually making a copy. There's a very important and practical line there. If you were guilty of copyright infringement every time you made something available to be copied you'd better carry every book or copyrighted piece of paper with you at all times or you'd be infringing copyright by making that document available for someone else to copy when it's not in your immediate possession. You better not go to sleep either. You're evil college aged brother or sister might steal said book or document it and copy it while you sleep.

    You can argue all day long about the person's intent when they have music files on a P2P network but the intent to make something available for copying doesn't (yet) factor into the laws governing copyright infringement as many courts are interpreting them. The real question is how long will our laws stay that way? It's only a matter of time before intent becomes a crime. I bet the RIAA lawyer goons have already written the text of laws that factor in intent and are just waiting for a Senator and Congressman who owe them and have the ability to sneak it into the next copyright or patent "reform" act intended to "update" our laws so they "keep pace with the rapidly changing technological landscape" while "protecting" the rights of artists. That's always the kind of language used when politicians (corporations) want to further erode consumer rights.

    1. Re:It's About Time by Luscious868 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "Making Available" was originally used by shoplifters to explain that it was the fault of the supermarket that they stole the goods. Id did not stand up then (1940's?) and sure as hell won't now in most countries, on account of this "prior art". In the USA, YMMV.

      Thank you for successfully arguing my point. "Making Available" is different than copying (or in your example stealing). Simply because a store made an item "available" to be taken doesn't mean the store was giving permission for someone who didn't pay for the item to take it just as making a work "available" on a P2P network to be copied doesn't mean the end user making it available has given permission for someone to make a copy.

  11. Re:They've created a pirate culture by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Your first point is also your strongest: The copy offers higher value than the original. That's actually the cardinal sin they make.

    Usually, when you buy an original product instead of the fake, you have some benefits. You have bought higher quality. Well, at least it's likely that you did. You get support, you get the option for replacements if it breaks, the manufacturer might even throw a few more service goodies at you, you get access to further options for free or little money, in general, there's an additional value in it for you, the valued customer of the original part instead of some knockoff.

    With content it's exactly reversed. You do not get "more" for buying the original, you get less. You get limitations due to DRM, you get mandatory previews and FBI warnings on movies, you have to keep the CD in the drive with games and with some software it gets really bizarre with dongles (which invariably will break something else), or copy protection drivers that cripple your machine in a way or another.

    The actual problem with any kind of copy protection is that it devaluates the product, compared to the illegal copy. The value of the copy is higher. I know people who do buy the game, then get the rip to play it.

    I wonder how long they will keep up buying it. That step does not give them anything tangible, actually...

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  12. Re:internet time by RackinFrackin · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Am I the only one who ever thought that maybe Han did mean it as a unit of length. If the Falcon travels at relativistic speeds, then the length contraction might squeeze the distance down to less than 12 parsecs.

  13. Re:internet time by B3ryllium · · Score: 4, Interesting

    And that doesn't even take into account the 'official' explanation of the Kessel Run cutting through a black hole field, thus necessitating a powerfully fast ship to cut as many gravitational "corners" as possible ...