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Replacing a Thinkpad?
An anonymous reader writes "As a very happy Thinkpad T20 user (still working after 7 years), I always planned on replacing it with another Thinkpad T-series. However, Thinkpads are now produced by Lenovo, a Chinese company, and I can't quite bear to buy Chinese while the Burmese military are shooting at monks with the Chinese Government as their biggest backer. Maybe this is silly, as whatever I buy is likely to be made (at least in part) in China... but still, what are my options for something as well built as the Thinkpad T-series?"
I've repaired and issued a lot of laptops in my day and I'm not aware of a true competitor to the T series in terms of chassis design. The current T lineup is really nice, but expensive. I'm starting to think I'll get myself a Dell 1420n with Ubuntu for my next box. Granted it's not a rugged laptop but I don't really need that kind of durability. You could consider the Toughbooks, but I really don't have any practical knowledge of them.
You do realize Lenovo is selling the Thinkpads now because... *drumroll* they were the company that made them all along?
avoid Dell, too, since the American government is doing such horrible things around the world. Yes, it's flawed logic. Move on.
This is cynical of me, but your private little boycott is not going to do the monks any good. If you buy a new Thinkpad now, it'll outlast the problem in Burma. Just buy another one. Lenovo has always produced Thinkpads, it's just that IBM doesn't support them directly anymore. Thinkpads are still the most reliable laptops in the market.
Ian
After Tiananmen Square I stopped buying Chinese. In the last few years it has been almost impossible. If the main thing isn't made in China, components are, and that goes for almost everything. I am sure my shoes are made from the finest Falun Gong hides. In terms of a laptop, I don't any that would have most of the parts made in China. Not much has changed in terms of Chinese regard for human rights, but no one seems to care much as long as they can get what they want cheap, regardless of the treatment of the labour that produces them and the regime that allows it.
We used to liberate people, now we liberate markets.
Standing up for one's moral convictions is now silly? How far we've fallen...
That reducing the wealth of people in an area makes them more subservient and dependent on the wealthy? In this case, the state... Sanctions ironically simply cement the power of the powerful.
You make people more independent by making them wealthy.
Deleted
Most companies, even Lenovo, use ODM companies to make laptops. Some of these companies are Chinese, but Taiwan is also a major competitor. Look for names like Quanta, Compal, or ASUS if you want to go with a Taiwanese company instead of a Chinese company. The ODM relationships are not advertised, so you will have to do some digging. Join forums like notebookreview.com and ask people to tell you where their laptops label says it was manufactured if you want to be sure.
I carried my little white 2001 iBook in a gym bag back and forth to the office for 4 years, before retiring it for it's final year to home only as a couch computer. It finally gave up the ghost after 5.5 years, and two drops to the linoleum covered floor in my living room -- once from 2 feet, once from three and a half. I wish Apple still used the bullet proof glass for iBook cases. That iBook sure took a beatin' before it belly-uped .
If you never make mistakes, it's probably because you're not doing anything.
Do not misunderstand me... I find it great that he does that. However, I fear, he's going to have to stick to his current laptop. There is no was to get a computer that isn't manufactured at least partially in China.
Very little compares to the durability of the ThinkPads, at least in the non-rugged category. You pay dearly for them, but they last forever compared to other notebooks.
Even Dell's Lattitude business line still feels like a toy. Dell really improved their notebooks over the last iteration, and they're still crap. HP's business line (not the consumer junk with the blinky blue lights and 17" monitors) is the only one IMO that comes close to IBM/Lenovo's case design and construction.
If you really want rugged or semi-rugged, you probably need to look at the Panasonic Toughbooks. They're solid, but they're 20% heavier than they should be and you compromise on case design for durability. (Side note, if you buy the true rugged Toughbook, it's assembled in the US (probably for military contract requirements.) You pay accordingly too...list on some of the rugged models is in the $2000-$3000 range.
Your other choice might be a MacBook Pro, but those aluminum cases don't look like they can take a beating the way the old ThinkPads can.
(By the way, everything's made in China now. If it wasn't, you wouldn't be paying the cheap prices you get for hardware now.)
True, though he can certainly minimize the dollar count going to China. Buying Lenovo would be giving every single dollar of the purchase to a Chinese company (though how they are directly related to the atrocities there... I'd never know), whereas buying, say, Dell, would only be giving manufacturing costs, while R&D remains here.
As a Chinese-Canadian I'm glad there are people who, at the very least, are willing to think along this guy's lines. There are awful, horrifying things going on in that country and it's nice to see some people who aren't so American-centric they can't point out China on a map, much less the atrocities being committed there.
As a side note... From my experience, more Americans know about these atrocities than Chinese. It's depressing, really. It's also depressing the number of new Chinese immigrants who are totally blown away by Canada's democratic government, since they thought (or were taught) that they had democracy all along.
According to wikipedia, the Chinese government owns a large share of one of the companies that owns stock in Lenovo, and so it effectively owns 27.5% of the company.
If the original poster is advocating for responsible consumerism, and suggesting that we look up the shareholders of a company and only support the company if we support the shareholders, then I'm all for it. However, it sounded like the original poster was saying: "Lenovo is Chinese. China is bad. Therefore, I don't want to buy a laptop from Lenovo."
Do you think the factory workers, or even the management at Lenovo have anything to do with China's military decisions? The US has a behavioral problem as well, do you think that world consumers should punish the people of the US economically because of it? When you boycott an entire country, keep in mind that the employees of the companies are people just like you who are working for a living. "China" is not some collection of a billion evil people shooting at monks - it's a country full of good people working to feed themselves and take care of their families.
As a side note... From my experience, more Americans know about these atrocities than Chinese. It's depressing, really. It's also depressing the number of new Chinese immigrants who are totally blown away by Canada's democratic government, since they thought (or were taught) that they had democracy all along.
Depends on where your from, my relatives in Xin Hua and Guangzhou are acutely aware of the deficiencies with their government. They are aware of the bad things that go on but persist to live a quiet live to avoid that trouble. But they're in a different socio economic class then the rest of China. They're owners of factories, doctors, accountants, the upper middle class of china. Their proximity to HK might be part of it too.
They have had brushes with some of it. My uncle was offered a promotion to Dean of one of the medical schools in the region. He had been a professor for a long time and was about to retire. He smelled a fish and took early retirement instead. Turns out they were attempting to find a scape goat for some embezzlement that happened. The person they did promote was arrested for embezzlement.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
You could get an Asus laptop. Owned by the Taiwanese, and made in Taiwan (or at least that's what's stamped on the bottom of mine).
Why just buy from not-China when you can buy from their enemies?
One the truly puzzling things about most Chinese that I meet is there bottomless capacity to defend the snake of a government they have - even the ones that have already immigrated away. I find that the upper-middle class tends to be the worst - the ridiculously rich are too educated to fall for the government's lies, while the poorest suffer too much to believe anything the government says. It's the people who fall down the middle that actually believe the things the government teaches them.
I've known many Chinese who admit their government's deficiencies, and admit that officials are almost always corrupt and self-serving. But for some reason they still declare their allegiance to the government, claiming that as a Chinese by blood they cannot possibly turn away from the Chinese government. This puzzles me greatly, since I've long ago refused to consider myself a supporter of anything BUT a Western democracy - if the government is shooting your kind by the hundreds, is corrupt, etc etc, what kind of loyalty do you owe to them? It seems very ego-driven, and amounts to stubborn refusal to admit that perhaps the West has a better sociopolitical system.
In a sick way, it's like Stockholm syndrome... a whole race of people who are culturally conditioned to remain loyal to their government, despite the innumerable atrocities that are committed against them in front of their own eyes.
As another side note... it's depressing the "history" they learn in their schools...
One the truly puzzling things about most Chinese that I meet is there bottomless capacity to defend the snake of a government they have - even the ones that have already immigrated away. I find that the upper-middle class tends to be the worst - the ridiculously rich are too educated to fall for the government's lies, while the poorest suffer too much to believe anything the government says. It's the people who fall down the middle that actually believe the things the government teaches them.
I've known many Chinese who admit their government's deficiencies, and admit that officials are almost always corrupt and self-serving. But for some reason they still declare their allegiance to the government, claiming that as a Chinese by blood they cannot possibly turn away from the Chinese government. This puzzles me greatly, since I've long ago refused to consider myself a supporter of anything BUT a Western democracy - if the government is shooting your kind by the hundreds, is corrupt, etc etc, what kind of loyalty do you owe to them? It seems very ego-driven, and amounts to stubborn refusal to admit that perhaps the West has a better sociopolitical system.
In a sick way, it's like Stockholm syndrome... a whole race of people who are culturally conditioned to remain loyal to their government, despite the innumerable atrocities that are committed against them in front of their own eyes.
As another side note... it's depressing the "history" they learn in their schools...
It's not just a Chinese thing. Everybody will carry some portion of the place they grew up with them. It's part of who they are and they are part of that too. So when you attack someones homeland it's partially an attack on them (or so they perceive). Unless the party that is being attacked hurt them directly they will usually try to defend or justify it.
It's not just countries but any affiliation. The foaming at the mouth republicans and democrats who defend their side against all logic. The Reform, NDP, Bloc, Liberal supporters here in Canada who will rationalize everything about their party. It's not the nature of just Chinese people. It's people as a whole will defend what ever they have some investment in. China does horrible things but the odds of you getting caught up in one of those things are small. Just as Canada and the US have done some pretty bad things but by and large most people been a part of that. Forced sterilization, internment camps, gitmo, Arar, Chinese head tax, residential schools, successful native American genocide, etc.. The difference is after the fact we can talk about it while in china talking about it too publically will often get you in toruble.
Thus Chinese aren't unique in lamenting that they don't really have a democracy but will say it isn't that bad. Which for a large majority of Chinese is true. The current Gov is better then any china has ever had. But the bar isn't as high as the West.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
Of course not. Unless you mail order it from Beijing. Where are you going to buy it? In the US. At least half the money will stay in the US. From Wikipedia
Buy a second-hand Thinkpad in the US, then 100% of your cash will stay here.If you have so much trouble understanding this stuff, then just look at the US. How many people voted to re-elect Bush, even after seeing how incompetent he was? You don't think it's the same phenomenon?