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Replacing a Thinkpad?
An anonymous reader writes "As a very happy Thinkpad T20 user (still working after 7 years), I always planned on replacing it with another Thinkpad T-series. However, Thinkpads are now produced by Lenovo, a Chinese company, and I can't quite bear to buy Chinese while the Burmese military are shooting at monks with the Chinese Government as their biggest backer. Maybe this is silly, as whatever I buy is likely to be made (at least in part) in China... but still, what are my options for something as well built as the Thinkpad T-series?"
Where exactly do you think the other laptop manufacturers make their gear? A hint: "Designed in California, Made in China", and that is just one of the favourites around here on slashdot.
I've repaired and issued a lot of laptops in my day and I'm not aware of a true competitor to the T series in terms of chassis design. The current T lineup is really nice, but expensive. I'm starting to think I'll get myself a Dell 1420n with Ubuntu for my next box. Granted it's not a rugged laptop but I don't really need that kind of durability. You could consider the Toughbooks, but I really don't have any practical knowledge of them.
You do realize Lenovo is selling the Thinkpads now because... *drumroll* they were the company that made them all along?
avoid Dell, too, since the American government is doing such horrible things around the world. Yes, it's flawed logic. Move on.
Check ebay for a used thinkpad. IBM still made them in 2005, though they were made in a Chinese factory.
--- Often in error; never in doubt!
>> Thinkpads are now produced by Lenovo, a Chinese company
If that was your problem, you should never have bought a Thinkpad ever. They were always manufactured by Lenovo which has always been a Chinese comopany, the country which it belongs to has always been the same. Can I call this a sudden attack of morality?
Aside from the obvious hypocrisy mentioned above, I am sure you will get a lot of suggestions from the cult of Mac, but believe me - its hard to find a replacement for Thinkpad. No matter how slick other notebooks may look, in terms of fineness, usability and sheer joy of typing (yes, thats critical factor for me at least), nothing comes near.
This is cynical of me, but your private little boycott is not going to do the monks any good. If you buy a new Thinkpad now, it'll outlast the problem in Burma. Just buy another one. Lenovo has always produced Thinkpads, it's just that IBM doesn't support them directly anymore. Thinkpads are still the most reliable laptops in the market.
Ian
Buy a newer, but still-made-by-IBM-not-Lenovo Thinkpad off eBay?
I've supported a large number of thinkpads over the years, and never thought of them as being that well made. Certainly no more reliable than a Dell latitude. Anyway, if you're looking for a tough relaible laptop, get a Panasonic Toughbook. It's the best we've found, YMMV.
and I can't quite bear to buy Chinese while the Burmese military are shooting at monks with the Chinese Government as their biggest backer. You're right. By the way didn't I just see you leave Walmart?
Infiltrated dot Net
I'm also a longtime Thinkpad fan. But I've also had very good luck with Panasonic's Toughbook line. Very well made machines and manufactured in Japan. They cost a little more but should last considerably longer than many of their competitors.
I certainly wouldnt want to by anything from the USA while children are dying of cholera in Iraq because the USA backed regime has blocked imports of Chlorene.
Old COBOL programmers never die. They just code in C.
SE Asia is the haven for most OEM's to purchase their laptops. For instance, old alienware laptops were actually Prostar laptops with a different logo (a Taiwanese manufacturer). Its going to be hard for you to find something that will allow you to divorce yourself from hardware without Chinese connections.
Expensive, but well built and assembled mostly in the US to my knowledge. I recommend doing more research and not just taking my word for it. :) Good luck.
http://www.mpccorp.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPC_Corporation
I was in your situation a short while ago, replacing an early T series laptop provided by my employer, and I also did not want to support lenovo. I purchased a refurbished T40 from buy.com for about $500, and am incredibly happy. Yes, it's only a single core processor at 1.5Ghz, but it serves my needs very well. In my opinion, IBM's T series laptops are the best non-apple laptops ever to grace this planet.
-q
If you want to boycott Chinese products all together, head to the nearest forest, take off all your clothes, and live like Tarzan in the wilderness.
I use Thinkpads. However, one of my major clients have switched to HPs (from Dells), and ones they have seem quite nice. I'm not sure what model range, though.
Of course, they are also made in China...
My other sig is extremely clever...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque
What is wrong with your T20?
I have an X23 that I refurbished. Maxed out the RAM and put in a new hard-drive. I can't see any reason to replace until it dies.
Eventually I will replace the spinning hard-drive with a flash-drive. I'd love to find a way to replace the CCFL backlight with LED were that possible, to make it even more long-lived.
The American fascination with tossing perfectly adequate technology into a landfill is apalling.
I've always liked Compaqs. I had one with a busted LCD that I actually full-on stomped on. It kept ticking, after a badblocks. It was a much older model, a 486 with 16 megs running 2.0 kernels, but I managed uptimes of over a year (I wrote a kernel module to patch the ptrace vulnerability on the fly, and some firewall rules took care of most of the rest :-)).
:-)
I currently have a Toshiba Satellite (for some reason) and a pre-Lenovo Thinkpad A20m, and my girlfriend has a Compaq. The Thinkpad and the Compaq are pretty solid. I'll let you know about the Satellite.
As far as getting something that isn't made in China, I'd say, offhand: you're screwed.
Assume I was drunk when I posted this.
The last Lenovo I saw in a store actually had a case so fragile it flexed when I pressed my finger on it. Panasonic toughbooks might not be bad. They recently greatly increased their rated fall distance. If you're looking for a metal case there are also the power pros. They have the tidy little advantage of being able to run all the current major OSes
After Tiananmen Square I stopped buying Chinese. In the last few years it has been almost impossible. If the main thing isn't made in China, components are, and that goes for almost everything. I am sure my shoes are made from the finest Falun Gong hides. In terms of a laptop, I don't any that would have most of the parts made in China. Not much has changed in terms of Chinese regard for human rights, but no one seems to care much as long as they can get what they want cheap, regardless of the treatment of the labour that produces them and the regime that allows it.
We used to liberate people, now we liberate markets.
I've used Macs for years, especially the Powerbook line, and they are long lasting & durable. Plus, you'll be able to run 3 different OS's with Bootcamp.
Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
That reducing the wealth of people in an area makes them more subservient and dependent on the wealthy? In this case, the state... Sanctions ironically simply cement the power of the powerful.
You make people more independent by making them wealthy.
Deleted
Most companies, even Lenovo, use ODM companies to make laptops. Some of these companies are Chinese, but Taiwan is also a major competitor. Look for names like Quanta, Compal, or ASUS if you want to go with a Taiwanese company instead of a Chinese company. The ODM relationships are not advertised, so you will have to do some digging. Join forums like notebookreview.com and ask people to tell you where their laptops label says it was manufactured if you want to be sure.
If you want something built well, look into Panasonic. They're not cheap because they're not built cheap.
I carried my little white 2001 iBook in a gym bag back and forth to the office for 4 years, before retiring it for it's final year to home only as a couch computer. It finally gave up the ghost after 5.5 years, and two drops to the linoleum covered floor in my living room -- once from 2 feet, once from three and a half. I wish Apple still used the bullet proof glass for iBook cases. That iBook sure took a beatin' before it belly-uped .
If you never make mistakes, it's probably because you're not doing anything.
I would happily buy a MacBook if it had the pointing_stick/nipple/TrackPoint/etc (the thing that sits between the G and H keys to move the mouse pointer).
I can't stand the Trackpad.
My T21 died back in February. I really loved that thing even though it was pretty slow at 1Ghz. I replaced it with a 15" MacBook Pro. I run VMWare fusion on it for those times I need to run a Windows partition. I'm at a point now where I rarely use those Windows sessions. I use the Mac primarily for Java development using Eclipse, JBoss, Tomcat. I had to do some testing on a Vista desktop a couple weeks ago. After that experience, I appreciated my Mac a whole lot more...
I would answer your question but I have a feeling you won't read it, since this comment is also made in China!
Send email from the afterlife! Write your e-will at Dead Man's Switch.
an abacus. They're great for math, unless you've developed something against the ancient Babylonians while living under your rock. The fact is that you're looking at Chinese mad goods no matter what you buy, you said it yourself. You're either going to buy an OLPC when they're available (at only slightly less power than you've already got) or buying Chinese. Don't like it? Who do you think made that T20 for IBM before?
"what are my options for something as well built as the Thinkpad T-series?""
You could try Macbook pro.
Good luck with that.
oogly boogly!
The point I was trying to make, for those who missed it, was not that America is the same as China, but that Lenovo and Dell are not responsible for governmental policy.
The last lot of Lenovo desktops we brought were made in Hungary. Get one of them instead...
Never owned a thinkpad, then?
--- Do you believe in the day?
Very little compares to the durability of the ThinkPads, at least in the non-rugged category. You pay dearly for them, but they last forever compared to other notebooks.
Even Dell's Lattitude business line still feels like a toy. Dell really improved their notebooks over the last iteration, and they're still crap. HP's business line (not the consumer junk with the blinky blue lights and 17" monitors) is the only one IMO that comes close to IBM/Lenovo's case design and construction.
If you really want rugged or semi-rugged, you probably need to look at the Panasonic Toughbooks. They're solid, but they're 20% heavier than they should be and you compromise on case design for durability. (Side note, if you buy the true rugged Toughbook, it's assembled in the US (probably for military contract requirements.) You pay accordingly too...list on some of the rugged models is in the $2000-$3000 range.
Your other choice might be a MacBook Pro, but those aluminum cases don't look like they can take a beating the way the old ThinkPads can.
(By the way, everything's made in China now. If it wasn't, you wouldn't be paying the cheap prices you get for hardware now.)
IBM had a range of ThinkPads aimed at home users (the G series from memory?) but they fell by the way a few years ago.
Lenovo came along (they didn't necessarily make ThinkPads beforehand, I'm not sure if Legend were the company that IBM gave their build contracts to) as the combination of Legend and the IBM PC division. So, the same people are still working on ThinkPads, but with new management. I am typing this on a ThinkPad T60, and while it's nice, it doesn't feel as solid as the T41 I had before it.
Lenovo introduced a number of home-market-esque features - obvious ones include widescreen/titanium covers on the Z series and the Windows key. They also got rid of the IBM branding (at least in advertising) as quickly as they could, which I find interesting; they had the right to use it for 5 years, and "ThinkPad" was definitely associated with IBM, and with quality.
You can now buy cheap Lenovo laptops (C series), which I'd personally keep far away from, as they feel really cheap. At least they've not branded them ThinkPad. The Z series seem to be what they're pitching at "home" to compete with Dell/HP, and in general, the quality (plastic, keyboard, construction) all just seems a little more flimsy now.
I worked for an IBM business partner, and we stopped selling ThinkPads when the quality fell. We moved to HP NC/NX series laptops (much better value for money, at least in New Zealand) - these were not without their problems also. We had one that would cause a right mouse button click when the hood was closed and you tapped the case (or the table, for that matter), because the trackpad was too close to the screen. That was fun to diagnose!
Friends with Dells say they're good; friends with MacBooks say you can't get any better. You pay a little premium for the MacBook's ability to run MacOS, obviously; if you don't value that, you might not want to consider one. I read that they may be bringing out a lower priced line of them soon.
Have a play around and see what you like, but not just at stores - the business quality ones are better specced, often cheaper and not always available in retail stores.
Is buying Amerincan made product among your options, while invasion of Iraq by U.S. caused ten thouthands innocent civilian death?
More lives are lost in Iraq than in Burmese.
If refusing chinese product makes sense for you, think again.
More practically, mice are fairly portable and avoid the stupid one-button problem on the Macs nicely.
If you never make mistakes, it's probably because you're not doing anything.
what a tard. if you want to go down that path, you might as well sell off all your crap and go live in a cave. no wait, you can't do that either. go read up on american history and talk to native americans and blacks to see their side of the story. you probably won't want to stay here after that. all countries have done some "not so nice things". get over it and get a T61. if you can't, then go kill yourself cuz you're made in america.
I love my T60, too, by the way. Runs great with Ubuntu as well.
'Every story, if continued long enough, ends in death.' --Ernest Hemingway
There are two options. First, buy a Mac. I've had great luck with 'em, they tend to be lovely hardware, and I've had great results with Apple service.
But you probably don't want it. Plus, they are made in China, I think.
Your best bet: used Thinkpad. You can get one made by IBM, or Lenovo. But if you buy it used, then you aren't giving money to the Chinese. At most, you are raising the average resale value on the things which would very slightly raise demand on new ones if many other people did the same.
Of course, unless you are lucky, you can't get the latest and greatest this way.
Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
There are a number of reasons not to buy Chinese products, but really this is not one of them, as most products these days are manufactured in the Asiapac area. However, with regards to lenovo, the US gov no longer purchases products not designed or owned by US entities unless it can not be avoided. Specifically *put on your tinfoil hat* that the chinese are embedding hardware that is designed to spy on the owner of that hardware *remove tinfoil hat* While is has not been proved, atleast when the products where designed in the US, all components were accounted for, there are a few components in some products coming out of Asia that are installed on the pcb's but have no description and are unaccounted for.
Granted, the above, is all pure speculation, but not completely out of the question.
I would be more worried about food products coming out of China at this point, then about boycotting electronics due to a political stance, because if that were the case.. you may as well stop buying products made in South America, most of Asia, hell even some places in EU, none of the gov's on this planet have clean hands.
I came, I conquered, I coredumped
It doesn't make sense to stop buying from Lenovo and continue buying goods made by other Chinese companies. Are you going to boycott all Chinese-made goods? Then be ready for some serious inconvenience.
Also, it's kind of sad that you're focusing on what's happening in Burma. It's evil, all right, but it also happens every day, all over the world. (And a lot of it is perpetrated by our very own beloved leaders.) If you really give a shit about human rights, stop reacting to headlines and start doing stuff day-to-day. Like joining the organization linked above, or one like it.
We use Apple MacBooks at our middle school and they've held up really well. No one is harder on computer equipment than little kids. The laptops have been real durable. So from personal experience, I'd recommend an Apple MacBook. You might like Mac OS X, but if you don't, you can always load it with Windows and/or Linux.
In America, you can have a website and a donate money to form an organization saying "Bush sucks". In China, if you did that, you would wind up in jail.
This is my sig.
Once you experience the two-finger scroll feature, you might change your tune ;)
An anonymous coward on Slashdot has just refused to buy a new Thinkpad?
CEASE FIRE!
Get the Red Cross in here NOW!
Tell the monks no hard feelings, no?
What were we thinking?!
See how that works?
You did mention you wanted it to be sturdy, I think those are designed for it.
:-).
:-)
Strangely enough, I've had good mileage out of a VAIO and the only upsetting thing there was that my spare HAD to come with Vista (which I promply zapped for Kubuntu and a VMWared XP session where needed). It seems I'm no longer the only one with a savage dislike for Vista
Anyway, how are you going to check that your laptop doesn't contain Chinese parts? I think you're a bit late for that, but that's my personal opinion - I actually do the same, just for a different country
Insert
Use the anti-RIAA/MPAA tactic and buy used, hopefully from some CEO who has to have this months model of stuff, etc.
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
So you're the single person in the entire world that they keep making those annoying eraser heads for? Damn you.
I fixed my fan, added 1 Meg of memory, and got a cheap 250 gig drive for my work machine. I plan to use XP and Office 2003 until it completely caves.
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
If you can afford it, then the MacBook Pro is the way to go. I had a PowerBook Titanium up until last spring when I sold it and purchased a MacBook Pro. (I'm in video production and a 1Ghz G4 wasn't going to cut it for FCP 6.) I got a model on closeout for $1300. It only had an 80GB HDD and 512MB of ram, but considering that a 320GB external HDD and 1GB of Ram set me back an extra $330, not a bad deal. I boot XP Pro off an external via Parallels when I need to use Windows, say to export a model from 3D Studio Max to something usable in Lightwave.
Now you are going to pay the Apple premium, but I haven't had many problems with Apple products unless it's a first Gen product. (I had a 1st gen snow white iBook G3 as my first Mac...there is a reason why I refuse to buy an iPhone at the moment...well that and ATT coverage in this area sucks.)
"The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
Yes, by all means, don't bother to avoid doing business with a country whose tactics you don't like because your own has done a good deal of horrible things, most beyond your control.
you might as well go to the outback, live from kangaroo meat and drink your own piss. cause everything else, at least part of it, it made somewhere in china.
The Dell Latitude is the closest competetor I've seen to the T-series Thinkpad. It has the magnesium alloy durable chasis, the hard drive head parking software, fingerprint reader option, and all that other neat stuff. I personally got one, and it was a lemon, so I returned it and got a T50, but a friend of mine has migrated his entire company to Latitudes and he couldn't be happier.
Laptops, from any manufacturer, come in just a handful of known configurations, and generally are customizable only by RAM, and maybe hard drive upgrades. Easy to make them in advance overseas.
Dell's big schtick with desktops though... and it's true of plenty of other makers as well... is building the machine to your specs as you order it, and having it to you within 48 hours, maybe even overnight. That's hard, and exorbitantly expensive, to do if you have to deal with international shipping and customs.
cya,
john
Imagine all the people...
I plan on not going to work on the 6th, and so should most of you. Spend some time with the family on that Saturday. :)
First off go to notebookreview.com to see which Laptop suits your needs. In your case, I would seriously look at a Fujitsu Lifebook. They are excellent machines, an E series or S series would be the perfect thin and light for you. But they are assembled in Osaka, Japan and NOT in Third Word mainland China. Checkout Panasonic Toughbooks although they are somewhat pricey. I believe Dell Latitude are assembled in Malayasia. HP Compaq are made in China. I think Samsungs are put together in Korea (although loads of Samsung products, especially Consumer Electronics are made in China). I really hope these Burmese Generals end up in front of a firing squad. I also hope no more monks or civilians get hurt. The way fucking Russia and China have backed the Burmese Junta sickens me. These two countries spawned Stalin (Georgian) and Mao. The biggest butchers in history. They also backed Pol-Pot in Cambodia in the 1970s. Maybe the Russians and Chinese are the greatest threat to the Free World and not some deluded Muslims.
I have moderator points, and i'd much rather mod the story as Troll or Flamebait, than go through and mod up all the comments pointing out the flaws in this guys logic behind avoiding lenovo.
1) The Chinese are trying to get Burma to calm down as well (it's not like they are sanctioning the violence despite funding them), so I wouldn't feel too bad about supporting China in this case...
2) If you decide not to get a Thinkpad, get a Powerbook or Macbook Pro. Very well built with a great deal of connectivity options, and you can simply run Windows (or Linux) on it from the word go if that is your thing.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Don't buy a Thinkpad anyway, the quality has gone through the floor in the last few years. My company bought some new T43's, and they are pieces of crap.
The masses are the crack whores of religion.
The money won't go to China, and it's likely to be compatible with whatever distro you were using with your T-20. All it needs is a new battery.
China would just flood the market with American dollars and ruin the US without having to fire a shot.
Undetectable Steganography? Yep, there's an app fo
I went from a thinkpad t20 (which I also really liked) to a Dell Latitude d600, which is a VERY similar product cosmetically. I think the Latitudes and the Thinkpads are some of the only laptops I have seen (does not mean they are the only ones, just the only ones I have seen) that come with both the fingger mouse and the trackpad.
My d600 is about to go back on lease return, and I am getting a latitude d630, which is a very nice machine.
I do not see any chinese stickers, but I do see parts made in malaysa and singapore. Maybe if I open the laptop up, I can find some chinese parts. Strange, before I got the latitude, I thought they were all built in Round Rock, Texas.
Nah, good luck finding a company that is completely Asian free. I bet even the one laptop per child has something made in SE Asia. Let me know if you find a company that sells laptops in which nothing in them is made in China.
with regard to internal affairs, even if the situation in USA is getting worse, and the situation in China is getting better, they are still far from being in the same league.
With regard to foreign affairs though, US is providing life support to far more dictatorial regimes than China is. US gives lip service to democracy and freedom, but not when the local dictators are seen as allied against communism (old days) or terrorists (modern days).
US is also typically allied with conservative Muslim countries in international organizations for social issues such as birth control, although that is a development new with the current administration.
Then go to http://www.xogiving.org/ and order up a couple of XO laptops so the poor kids in Burma have a shot (pardon the expression) at a real future. If you like, you can sign up to buy a pair of XO laptops, one for a poor kid in some third-world country and one for your own kid or a neighbor or even for yourself. You'll pay less for those two XOs than Microsoft gets for a retail copy of Windows, and they'll do a lot more good (and, um, work a lot better ...)
dude, grow a brain...
iraq: 73,922-1,000,000 dead...
dead monks 9-???
ok, so as many people died violently in Burma as say, everyday in Iraq before lunch?
OHHHHhhhh, wait... I forget, American only have a five minute attention span, and a phobia of Communism...
I think you need to pick better battles than this, because there is no real connection between Lenovo (or the Chinese computer industry) and the Chinese government's policies that I am aware of. If you really want to boycott something based on governmental policies, you should buy a bike or start walking everywhere and try to not use so much oil. Alan Greenspan has now said in his latest book what politicians won't say about Iraq, which we all knew before, and that is that it was about oil. There is also a UK study indicating that about 1.2 million Iraqis have died as a result of violence since the US invasion began.
So boycott something that governmental policies actually affect.
The selling points on Thinkpads for me are:
I dread that Lenovo will fritter away the Thinkpad's well-earned reputation for quality now they're unhooked from IBM - but so far things are still ok.
--- These are not words: wierd, genious, rediculous
since all your options seem to have some part of manufacturing in china, and typically in the greater south east asian sector. perhaps you can base it on component manufacturers(nvidia, seagate, samsung, etc). frankly i'd lean towards a macbook pro, even if you're running windows only. or if your absolutely deadset against owning an apple product, you can build your own using a barebones/whitebook kit, specifying your components, and installing only what you need without the bloatware that come bundled with all retail pc's.
three can keep a secret, if two are dead - benjamin franklin
I *love* my ASUS Z84JP. Monster power laptop, feels well built, runs Linux like a dream, has an eSATA port. Only disadvantage (besides its 8lbs if that matters) is it is not yet Santa Rosa. But ASUS has a new 15", the G1 I think it's called, that is SR and lighter.
I'll keep buying ASUS just for its built in eSATA port if no other reason, until others follow suit. Much better than USB2 for hard drives, and better than firewire too IMHO. And built in is much better than through an ExpressCard like you'd need to do with other vendors.
Of course, I don't think ASUS uses ATi cards, only nVidia. That's good for now, but when the open source 3D for ATi is complete, I won't want nVidia anymore.
Thinkpads have had it for years, finger on the nub, thumb on the middle button. It's very precise.
You do have to sacrifice MOUSE3 for it, but that still leaves us with one more than the macbook.
--- Do you believe in the day?
Check out the Panasonic Toughbook lineup. Our police force uses these and I assure you they are rugged and they work anywhere. There are different types of ruggedness: like the fully one, I know for a fact works even in -50c, rain, etc. (our police force uses these) and then the semi-rugged kind which may be more practical for an office setting. Although, I think they're a bit expensive, if you were planning on getting a Thinkpad anyways, its build quality is up there. Also, Panasonic Toughbooks are not manufactured in China and are made by its parent company Matsushita.
Simply, you're fooling yourself. All it's done is given China a huge reserve of foreign currency which is can use to threaten foreign markets to force them into turning a blind eye to their excesses.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2007/08/07/bcnchina107a.xml
"The imperialists are so hungry for profits that they will sell us the rope with which to hang themselves." - V. Lenin.
November 6th is not a good day for me. I have to work. Could you reschedule it for a Sunday?
Aside - am I alone in chuckling at the stream of people suggesting Apple products, even though the original poster specifically stated that he doesn't want a Chinese made laptop? Has no Mac user ever turned their machine upside down and looked at the little sticker on the bottom?
Anyhow, I have to think that somewhere in the US secuirity establishment there must be a company supplying laptop gear designed and built in the U.S. specifically because folks like the CIA might not want to trust hardware built in China.
Or, in other words, if all laptops are built in China, could the Chinese government be dumb enough not to include some super-secret features that they can use when needed?
Three Squirrels
Over the past 10 or more years I've noticed that the prices are not that much cheaper from China. Lower cost doesn't mean lower prices for the consumer, it means lower for the company to make so the executives and managers can have larger bonuses and salaries. Now, I have a T-20 and recently upgraded to a T-60. It works like a champ and seems to be solidly build, but I haven't dropped it yet (but soon)... Regards, ran6110
So, the one thing I've been happy about with my most recent laptop purchase (Dell D620): I bought the uber-support package - a tech shows up at my house the next day, hardware-in-hand to fix the problem. Compare that to my last computer support without anything fancy (Toshiba Satellite) - a 3 week wait while my laptop was out of commission waiting for the warranty support center to order and re-order parts. I don't have any particular affiliation with Dell or Toshiba (both the computers have been great), but that fancy support has been spectacular.
Last non-lenovo generation. Solved ethical issue plus saves some $.
You could get an Asus laptop. Owned by the Taiwanese, and made in Taiwan (or at least that's what's stamped on the bottom of mine).
Why just buy from not-China when you can buy from their enemies?
Issues about Chinese politics aside, I recently purchased my first Thinkpad, the T60p. With all the options, 3Gb of RAM (some models will take 4Gb, but the processor will only support 3.25 Gb, so that 4th Gb is money down the tubes) and the dedicated 256 Mb video card, it's a graphics powerhouse. Even though the card isn't optimized for gaming, it can handle anything you throw at it. I use mine for mainly photo editing, and it can't be beat. The only disappointment is that it wasn't available with a solid state hard drive when I bought it. Lenovo runs pretty good deals all the time, mine was 25% off when I bought it, and that definitely made buying a top of the line unit easier. I'm running XP Pro on it, and it's treating me great. Even the built in "Thinkvantage" software is useful, making it really easy to synch with projectors and such for presentations, and it's really good at finding your networks if you're like me and you work in multiple places and on the road. The only software problem I had involved the security software, and that was a conflict of my own making. The biometric scanner works great - totally not frustrating or inconvenient. The chassis is awesome. Nothing beats basic black for design, and it's built like a tank, but still very light, even when running with two batteries installed. The keyboard is natural and easy, almost as good as my Saitek gaming keyboard, and I get a lot less fatigue working on it than other laptops. The hinges seem to be indestructable, too.
1. Anything you believe is morally right is not silly at all. Trying to do the right thing and failing is far better than not doing anything at all, in my opinion.
2. I work for giant consulting company and the client I'm assigned to started with Dell's business models. Those are a rather flop. I wasn't one of the (un)lucky few to get one, so I can't detail what was so horrible about them, but I do know they suffer from what I call "the mysterious dell slowdown" which is where the machine gets slower with age even with no new software installations. If I haven't seen this effect myself, I wouldn't believe it and blame it on crapware. I also wouldn't belive it unless it were anywhere other than this client. They're EXTREMELY restrictive about their machines and as a result, I can vouch that these machines don't have any crapware on them.
The whole dell thing came to a very abrupt halt and people started getting HP Business models (nc6400). They're nowhere near as small and light as the Thinkpad X31 they've got me on, but they're durable and have a solid feel to them, are more portable/lighter than the Dells and have quite a nice display. Overall they seem like a rather comparable step up from the older ThinkPad models.
Bought a new T60 last spring, it's flimsy and definitely won't hold up to use as an on-the-road laptop, so I've gone back to my old T30 until I can find an alternative. I'll probably just give the new T60 to my sister since it will just sit on her desk and won't be used in a mobile manner. Too bad.
Run and catch, run and catch, the lamb is caught in the blackberry patch.
It does not support docking station, but it is a good solid machine, and runs OS-X in addition to Windows and Linux.
But all laptops are made, or at least uses parts made in Asia, so you can not go free of that.
You're not supposed to use it all day. It's there for easy access when 95% of your input is through the keyboard. I wish my desktop keyboard had a nipple, my hands would never have to leave the home row.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
Please somebody mod this guy up. He's actually on topic and informative.
Moderators, the topic is "Replacing a Thinkpad", NOT boycotting China, not atrocities committed by various nations, and certainly not the Iraq War or Saddam Hussein. These are all good topics.
They are not the topic of this thread.
I was excited to read here about replacing a Thinkpad. I did not click on "Replacing a Thinkpad" to read about human rights violations or the erosion of the US constitution.
This is not DIGG. There is a -1 Off Topic mod. Please use it. Or at least don't mod stuff up that is so totally off topic while Mr. Plug here sits at a (Score:2) for talking about.. wait for it....
laptops!
Thank you.
(Now I'll sit and watch as I get modded Off Topic. Oh the irony.)
Operator, give me the number for 911!
I've wondered what I could do to help Burma/Myamar, as this situation has dragged on for years. If I can't get to them directly, this is a brilliant idea to do it indirectly. China through various funds owns 50% or more of Lenovo.
So, I'm not buying Lenovo - Dell gets the business. I get equivalent value anyway, and maybe the message will travel up chain from Lenovo to the Chinese government, that they have a PR problem they may want to deal with. I know this isn't as precisely targeted as I'd like, but still, how much less effective can it be than the sanctions have proven to be?
Great idea!
Ask your current PC Vendor 3 questions:
1. Are 100% of their systems assembled in the USA by US workers?
2. Are 100% of their tech support calls and emails answered in the USA by US workers?
3. Do they have a company policy to NEVER export American jobs?
If they can't answer YES to all 3 questions, then come ask Systemax(TM). We say "Yes" to the American worker. We are the largest, most-reliable PC manufacturer in the country that can make these claims. We've been assembling and supporting the highest quality PCs for American businesses and families in Fletcher, Ohio for over 20 years. And here's a link to one of their ruggedized laptops: Item # BTO 038651
Easy, at least so far: LEGO products. Done. Used to be made only in Denmark. They've expanded outside that (Switz., USA, Czech Rep., Mexico) but so far it doesn't include China. When the big deal about your product is the high quality standards, producing in China just doesn't make sense.
Slashdot Patriotism: We Support our Dupes!
I'm using one to type this post. It is pretty sweet!
"Creativity is allowing ones self to make mistakes. Art is knowing which ones to keep" - Scott Adams
Can be read a few different ways: you could mean a computer that's ruggedized, you could mean a computer that's reliable, you could mean a combonation of the above...
If you want a ruggedized laptop, try the Dell Latitude ATG series. I've actually seen one be dropped from a height of about 4 feet, while running, without causing a hard drive crash or any appreciable damage to the thing. It didn't even crash/shut down.
As far as reliability goes, I can't complain about my Compaq R4000-series lappy. But it's 2 years old, so things may have changed... my next laptop is probably going to be one of the new Dells (not ruggedized, but the cheaper 1500 series Inspirons), but I haven't made up my mind yet. A pity it's so hard to get laptop parts and build your own these days. As far as reliability goes, my father is back on his old Dell Latitude again today, after his newer laptop fried itself again. He's never had any complaints with it, and it's certainly more reliable than the one he'd replaced it with, which has crapped out on him twice since he bought it a year ago. The first time was the screen, and this time it's the CPU fan, which caused the CPU itself to crater.
If you believe everything you read, you'd better not read. - Japanese proverb
"Grow a brain" Classy, I like that. Does it matter how many are dead? And is that the only atrocity China has committed? Should we quantify our horrors and set a "allowable death and atrocity threshold"? Keep your generalizations of America to yourself, especially if you're going to bring that "lesser of two evils" B.S.
It didn't need to be said. And it does not even come close to telling the entire story. Almost all Iraqi arms under Saddam were French and Russian made.
That the US backed Iraq due to *the enemy of my enemy* policy is no secret. And I personally do not like that type of policy, even if the enemy was Iran. Do you have any idea what actually went on in Iran and how disgusting of a government that is even to this day?
However, as much as I don't like it I'm not going to pretend a case can't be made for it.
Bottom line is, just because you can copy-n-paste an article from the internet doesn't mean you understand anything about the the article. And it doesn't mean the article is with merit.
I personally find most of the touting of US-Iraq relations prior to GWI to be very simplistic in nature. It's rare to see someone discussing it in detail and in regards to the region and world as a whole over the lsat 40 or 50 years.
Life isn't always so simple that a trite copy-n-paste can make a good point on your behalf.
the multitouch thing is nice. I don't own a mac, but I think it's:
one finger tap: left click
two finger tap: right click
hold left finger while dragging right finger: scroll
actually far easier to use than "a trackpad."
Please stop stalking me, bro.
Iraq doesn't have Monks, they have Clerics.
So it's not the same thing, see?
Clerics can fight back, only they can't use any weapon with a blade.
Burmese Monks, I mean, what, I don't think they even know Kung Fu!
Do daemons dream of electric sleep()?
I got trapped in a conference room with a bunch of people doing that once with no mouse and a notebook with nubbin. Ouch. Index finger was raw after 12 hours. It sounds stupid, I know, but there was literally no time to stop and go get a mouse. Now I make sure there's at least one in the bag at all times, if not a USB drawing tablet as well. The WACOM drawing tablets trump damn near anything as a pointing device, BTW.
If you never make mistakes, it's probably because you're not doing anything.
as a reseller of notebooks, and yes i sell Thinkpads as well. If you want it i will get in what you want. Ultimately the choice is yours but... Flip your notebook over and look for the words "Assembled in XXXXXXX" The answer is not China. The answer is Mexico. Lenovo 3000s are made in China, Thinkpads are assembled just to the south. Go to a store, look at a Thinkpad and flip it over. Now the final profits go to a chinese company. Thats the other issue, but along the way if americans stop buying Thinkpads because of Chinese ownership you put Mexicans out of work. and they have a bigger need for a job so they sneak accoss the border illegally to find a job. Now you have a another problem, so its not always black and white. So if you want to do something about Manymar, call your congressman and tell him to speak up. As we look at the news, Iraq is not the only country outside of the United States.
I've repaired and issued a lot of laptops in my day and I'm not aware of a true competitor to the T series in terms of chassis design.
I'd have to disagree--I'd have to say Toshiba from my experience is competitive in terms of build quality looking at the overall lineup.
If you are looking for durability Panasonic ToughBooks are far superior to Lenovos. Lenovos might have a good chassis design but I find they are "too dainty" in other ways (keyboards for example). Speaking from practical knowledge I'd much rather go with a ToughBook or maybe a Toshiba Tecra or Sattelite than a Thinkpad--also because they aren't Chinese companies (they are Japanese).
...seeing as 99% of the other things you own or are going to buy are made in China. Billions worth of products are sold each month but one line of notebooks will bring about great reform as the Chinese economy is crippled. Like so many "statements" they're more for show than anything else.
Since you mentioned shoes, I'll say that New Balance makes most of theirs in the US (and clearly labels which they are). In addition, they seem to hold up very well. I usually wear out shoes quickly (read: I'm a fat motherfucker) but the New Balance ones seem to last about twice as long as comparable "sweat shop" shoes.
Their T2010 is touchpad-less like ThinkPads.
The current Lenovo's (except the small X series) have both the trackpoint, a trackpad, and no less than 3 mouse buttons. Superior to the Mac in every way possible.
...is there no one left on Slashdot who grasps the concept of sarcasm?
You probably don't want to look inside any of your computers if you're going to be stupid enough to link what's going on in Myanmar with the Chinese - you'll find plenty of made in China parts inside.
Also, by your logic, don't buy anything Made in America, Made in UK, etc...
> The US has their problems, but if you want to compare them to China, it's not even
> close. Where are the listings for the Chinese government's transgressions?
Forgive me for not having an orgasm of patriotism at the revelation that we're not the
single most oppressive regime in the world. Lowering the bar much?
25% Funny, 25% Insightful, 25% Informative, 25% Troll
While I admire your stance, there's just one tiny little flaw in it...
What company do you think made your original Thinkpad?
IBM never did their own laptop production, its always been in Asia, and most of it was by Lenovo. All IBM did was finally sold them the rights to the name "Thinkpad" to put with the hardware they had been making under contract for IBM all along.
I want a new quote. One that won't spill. One that don't cost too much. Or come in a pill.
Is what my last few Dells have said on the bottom.
If you can't stand the thought of buying a computer from a Chinese company while the mess is going on in Myanmar, just do what I did and buy a computer from Lenovo last year. Or, if your time machine isn't working, buy a used one made last year.
Alternatively, plan to buy a new Thinkpad as soon as the mess is over, and use your current computer until then. If you want to be political, call up Lenovo and let them know. It does nobody any good to silently boycott a company, since they don't know why their sales are dropping, so they don't know what to do to rectify the situation.
Anyway, I don't see you getting a new computer any time soon, since you'll obviously have to wait until 2009 at the earliest to get one from an American company, right?
Every single component in every single computer is... MADE IN CHINA!!!! You can't compute ethically so you may as well shoot yourself. Luckily for me, I'm a hypocrite.
http://ask.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=311455&cid=20781875/ Seconding this. A T40 or T42 is your best bet. Secondly, an R series, next a G series, and only as a last resort, an X series.
That's quite an assertion there. When you give money to a Chinese company, that income is taxed by the Chinese government and part of the purchase price goes directly to support the atrocities committed by the Chinese government. This isn't speculation, this is fact.
At what point does anybody's race enter into this?
Is this a news report or a trailer for a motion picture?
At least two idiots moderated the parent post "Interesting".
Most of the Taiwanese OEMs have practically all of their manufacturing facilities in China, but at least they aren't directly involved in feeding the Party hierarchies. One or two of the Taiwanese manufacturers have kept their facilities in Taiwan though. Google should help identify them.
The Japanese makers have likewise most of their factories in China, but there has been a recent trend to look at other less hostile and more democratic Asian countries to host more of the manufacturing.
Some China trivia: How many knew that the "peoples' liberation army" (PLA) is "constitutionally" loyal to the Chinese "communist" Party instead of the state or the "government"? Or that the current CCP and PLA head honcho Hu Jintao (aka "president of the PRC") was nicknamed the Butcher of Tibet thanks to his bloody crackdown on Tibetan demonstrators in Lhasa while he was the Party supremo there in the late 80s. In the immediate aftermath tens of thousands of Tibetans were forced to watch how the Chinese executed their freedom-fighters in a sports stadium. That bloody act loyal to the Chinese communist Party helped fast-track him into the top Party leadership. What if the Burmese generals were massacring monks and civilians in a neighboring country..?
Should invading one's peaceful neighbours be opposed, or rewarded with trade deals?
Ask and ye shall receive:
http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/mightymouse.html
http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/migmousblac.html
http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/en104wh.html
Can't vouch for any of these, having never tried 'em, but worth a look perhaps.
Like you, I'm a long-time ThinkPad owner (I've had 5). When the time came to replace my beloved ThinkPad T41p, I ordered the then-brand-new T60p. Unfortunately, the release got delayed, and being a full-time student, I needed something comparable in terms of power, size (1" thin), and durability, and I needed it yesterday. The next closest thing not made by Dell (boo hiss) was the MacBook Pro. I figured "what the hell" and went over to the Apple store and picked up the high-end 15" model. I run Windows Vista on it exclusively, and it runs great. Being really anal about needing two mouse buttons, I figured I'd never get used to the single button on the touchpad, but I've actually come to prefer one button and the quick Fn+Click action to bring up a context menu. Just make sure you load up Input Remapper to restore all the shortcut key functionality (as well as keyboard and screen backlight settings).
... is that you? Seriously, "liquidrage" and that meandering rant?
How confidently you speak for the one point two million corpses in Iraq, plus the four million or so refugees. You must have mad psychic powers.
While I agree not supporting China's stance is a good thing, there are better ways to make your impact known than simply "not giving them your money". In fact, I think if China had less money in some way or fashion, it wouldn't make a difference to the overall society. On the same note, replace china with anything. Even Iraq/Syria/Iran. Does fueling a country mean it is automatically (insert negative verb). Is giving money to a (noun related to same verb) even going to help when it is resources they need, not economy? If you give a (noun from above) a physical resource is one thing, if you give them money is another. Etc etc. If someone makes a quality product, are you going to deny it because of where it is made? Sadly, reforms are needed in a country, and purchasing power speaks nil about anything as far as ethics when it comes to grey areas of opinion. I mean like it or not but the asian market makes (some) great electronics parts. Are you just going to not use electronics? Asus makes nice laptops too. I've had great experience with a c90. I'd suggest going to notebookreview.com or forum.notebookreview.com and looking through some reviews to see what laptops are good to go with, from that perspective.
The nc6000's were great, but practically every nc6220 and nc6320 I've bought lately have had some sort of power problem (AC Adapter, battery, or charging circuit on the system board)
Most of them have been from HP's refurbished division, but still.
At least the cases have some metal to them (Note: Magnesium (HP) or Titanium (Lenovo) "composite" means, "mostly plastic"
Hopefully they have that fixed now that they seem to be retiring those models, but now I'm stuck with no laptop with a builtin serial port. Working on making a custom USB-to-serial adapter with a voltage doubler to make old equipment happy.
Do you have any idea what actually went on in Iran and how disgusting of a government that is even to this day?
Yeah, because they Shah we installed in the 50's was SUCH a good leader. Pft.
The US needs to stay they leader of the "Free World" and get away from the leader of the "Christian World" thing. That is so 1950. Then JFK got elected and we actually got somewhere. Til they killed him. For being Catholic.
Cool! Amazing Toys.
Well, (assuming he's American) it's silly to the extent that the US, rightly or wrongly, has killed more innocent bystanders in Iraq than the Burmese regime has killed monks in Burma, and I don't see him wanting to move to France or anything.
Plus there's no direct evidence that China is supporting the crackdown, and more evidence that they, in fact, are not happy about it.
Not too many regimes that don't have blood on their hands. Just don't buy a laptop, period. It's probably the kindest thing you can for our plundered old planet.
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
Yes, there's lots of computer manufacturing in Taiwan. But some of it's _really_ in Taiwan, and some of it's Taiwanese companies doing the design and high-level work with the factories themselves in China. In general you can't tell which ones are which, but less of the money goes to China if you're buying from Taiwan.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
If you know someone at IBM (seriously, they have like 250-300,000 employees, if you don't know someone who works there, one of your friends does) it's still possible to buy used IBM-branded ThinkPads from the employee surplus store. I know a friend who just did it, and there aren't any restrictions on buying gear from the store for non-employees ("family and friends"); in fact they encourage it. The employee doesn't even need to pay for it or anything.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
The military junta running Myanmar has been doing so, with Chinese (and Russian and Indian) support, since 1962.
In that time, they've wrecked their environment, brutally oppressed dissent, and generally been a bunch of assholes. Why do you suddenly feel bad about it because some monks are involved?
Don't get me wrong. They're evil fuckers and should be wiped off the earth. But you're a little late to the "giving a shit" game, and refusing to buy a laptop from a Chinese run company is kind of like pissing into a forest fire.
Just buy some Chinese Human Rights Abuse offsets. Then you can feel guilt free about buying chinese products.
This is like the kick I get out of (mostly ignorant, closed-minded, but well-meaning) people who buy cars only from US automakers. Most GMs and Fords are final-assembled in Canada or Mexico. Hondas are assembled in Alabama. Toyotas are assembled in California. Hyundais are assembled in Georgia. I dare you to figure out what % of any manufacturer's major components (engines, trannys, etc.) are made where.
I do right by me. The best product, as best I can determine, at the best price. Keep it simple.
Research shows that 67% of those who use the term "research shows", are just making shit up.
Regimes can only really be replaced from the inside. This is why our military is such an utter failure in Iraq. Since the Chinese people don't have the grapes or the desire to over-throw the oppressive Commie regime, I just don't care about what happens to them because it's NOT MY BUSINESS. The actions of the Chinese government do affect me through their lack-luster quality standards. It just so happens that the only way I can affect the Chinese government is to affect their economy as best I can...and the best way to do that is to buy as little of their goods as possible.
Would you be spouting the same shit if it were pre-war Nazi Germany who made Thinkpads?
Blar.
Buy a used Thinkpad on eBay. There's a whole channel dedicated to inventory coming off of corporate leases.
For years my laptop buying method has been "the best T series Thinkpad I can get off of eBay for $500." It works great. I'm up to a T23 now.
There's more to it than this.
Yeah, and France and England never should have created the *modern* instability in the Middle East anyways. And the turks never should have picked such horrible allies. And after that the Germans. And before that the Irgun. And way before that the Greeks never should have covertly replaced the Romans and formed the Byzantine, aka the Eastern Roman Empire, to begin with.
The whole region is full of Europe and America messing with it, and the whole region is full of it creating problems for itself. And it always has been.
The biggest manufacturer (under its own brand) that I'm aware of in Taiwan is Acer. They recently spun off their manufacturing arms as Wistron, but it's still based in Taiwan also. You can read about their global operations here.
Granted, like most everybody else, they do a lot of manufacturing in the PRC, but I find something that's only manufactured there (with the bulk of the profits going elsewhere) to be a lot less offensive than something that's designed, manufactured, and wholly brought to market by a PRC firm. (Of course, if what you find offensive about the PRC is worker abuses and not its geopolitics, then you should probably be even more bothered by stuff outsourced there for manufacturing.)
But Wistron is pretty diversified, in addition to the three locations in the PRC, they have their HQ, main R&D, and a manufacturing center in Taiwan, a service center in Japan, a factory in the Czech Republic, a service center in the Netherlands, a factory in Juarez, a service center in Dallas and a customer service center in Round Rock. They're openly traded on the Taiwan exchange and although I can't find a breakdown of all major holders that would definitively exclude the PRC government, their major holder is Acer (at ~35%).
I think you could buy from them in reasonably clear conscience, plus you'd have the additional bonus of giving the profits to a Taiwanese company, which ought to get you some sort of anti-PRC karma points somewhere.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
If a citizen of another country believes that the U.S. is supporting immoral policies in the world they should ABSOLUTELY take it out on U.S. businesses in the sense of withholding their business.
Same applies to citizens of the U.S. with respect to any other country.
Same applies to citizens of any country with respect to their own country.
Never support what you believe to be immoral. Always take a stand. If everyone took a stand, this kind of crap would stop.
Chains find only willing wrists!
Over-the-top Response Guy! Giving "Over-the-Top Responses" since 1970.
I just had to comment on this one as I'm very much fed up with the myth that US destroyed the infrastructure of Iraq.
The truth of the matter is that even before first Gulf war, there wasn't much infrastructure up in Iraq compared to developed countries. In Iraq you basically had few roads, few railroad connections, oil production industry and some civil infrastructure. When the US in the first Gulf war attacked Iraq, US didn't do blind bombing of Iraqi cities as they did in the second world war. In the second Gulf war US did even less damage to infrastructure as they had more advanced weaponry available and as they were making a land invasion there was no need for massive world war two style bombing runs. The fact of the matter is that Iraq was before first Gulf war a third world country without industrial production and transportation infrastructure, and that should not be counted to the fault of US.
It should be also said that it's a myth that Germany and Japan were totally destroyed. They weren't. After the second world war both Germany and Japan had most of their industrial and transportation infrastructure up. Yes, the population centers in both countries were very heavily bombed and to late 50s you could find ruins in many Germans cities, but the factories, electric plants and damns, railroads, roads and harbors were very much intact. Actually the German infrastructure was in so good shape that the allies had to do demolishing to try to achieve the vision of pasteurized Germany as visioned in Morgenthau plan. It should also be noted that after the war, German agricultural and industrial production didn't collapse because of failure of the infrastructure, but for the politics of occupying forces: there were no effective occupation government, monetary system was by purpose shut down and major German corporations were halted. After the implementation of remnants of Morgenthau plan was shut down and there some governing happening, the economy recovered and started to boom. In this context Marshall loans given to German government didn't start the recovery, but made the recovery more snappier.
Now I want to point out that I'm not denying that the US as and occupation force in Iraq hasn't had difficulties and they wouldn't be free from critic. What I'm saying is that Iraq was before a third world country without developed infrastructure and it still is, and that is not the fault of US.
PS. I'm not an American, and I'm not trying to defend US nor it's action. I just want that false arguments are not used in a discussion. The myth of destroyed Iraq infrastructure is one and the same myth about post war Germany and Japan is second.
Survey research tool for commercial and scientific use
"Well, at least they don't shoot demonstrators in the US. "
You mean recently I presume?
Need Mercedes parts ?
If I were in a job that trapped me in conference rooms for 12 hours at a time, I'd just shoot myself and get it over.
From my job experience, Toshiba Satellites were the most reliable laptop. When I had to choose mine, I got Satellite as well, and had it over 4 years without a single problem (I did put more memory and got a faster and bigger drive). Still using it, and don't feel a need to upgrade.
I'm not saying that they shouldn't have a couple buttons on the mac. Mac zealots piss me off. But here's a list of things unbelievably better than the options:
1. magnetic power connector (admittedly because they had the big power-connector-snapping-off-and-remaining-unsupported issue)
2. multitouch on the trackpad.
I'm just saying that calling a mac trackpad with multitouch "a trackpad with a single button" is like calling the iPhone a Blackberry with single button. Think about it.
Oh, by the way, I just saw Steve Wozniak speak at a WorkNet Pinellas event, and I am now aware where a good portion of the Apple Is A Loving God mythology comes from. That guy is freaking amazing. Wonderful talk.
Please stop stalking me, bro.
Dr. Mengele, is that you?
Catalin Braescu
Ofaly.com
Either buy a used thinkpad or a refurb. www.ibm.com still sells thinkpads that are refurbs. Also IBM does the tech support for the thinkpads out of Atlanta GA.I miss working thinkpad support.
SimonTek
So by this metric, if the US simply executed its criminals w/o trial, we would be the BEST country on the planet.
Awesome
You are in a maze of twisted little posts, all alike.
"Rubbing the clit point all day hurts my finger "
Uh-huh.
Ya know what? I recently bought a few guitars and haven't played in years. At first my fingers hurt from fingering chords but after a while they calloused up, got stronger and I could finger chords like a madman.
Think of it as exercise.
Need Mercedes parts ?
Loveno employees and stockholders are not the Chinese government, right? I guess some tax money would go to the Chinese government but is there a good government in the world? That point is moot.
Oh, but it pays. Quite handsomely. Sometimes a little suffering is worth it. ;)
If you never make mistakes, it's probably because you're not doing anything.
Did it occur to you that some of us voted for him *precisely* for that reason?
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
I ordered this system from IBM, along with a Ultrabay battery. As it looks, it kicks ass, considering that I've seen what IBM quality is. It's good.
1 SYS.6465CT CONFIGURED SYSTEM $1,200.35 $1,200.35
The above product code consists of the following component(s):
1 6465CTO CTO THINKPAD T61 WIDESCREEN-1Y $1,129.55
1 42V8190 SBB INTEL CORE 2 DUO PRCESST7300 $0.00
1 42V8012 VBB MS WIN VISTA HOME BASIC $0.00
1 42V8568 SBB MS WINVISTA HM BS32 US ENG $0.00
1 42V8286 SBB 15.4 WXGA TFT $0.00
1 42X0817 SBB INT GMAX3100 GM965W $0.00
1 41W2063 VBB 2GB PC2-5300 667MHZ 2DIMM $0.00
1 42V8195 SBB KEYBOARD US ENGLISH $0.00
1 42V8295 SBB UN(TRACKPOINT TOUCHPAD) $0.00
1 42V8165 SBB 120GB HDD,5400RPM $0.00
1 42V8172 SBB DVD REC.8XMAXDUAL LAY UB-S $0.00
1 42X0805 VBB PC CARDSLOT EX CARDSLOT $0.00
1 41W1501 SBB INTELPRO/WL3945ABGUSCNLAAP $0.00
1 62P6054 VBB INTEGR.BLUETOOTH PAN $0.00
1 39T6651 SBB 9 CELL LI-ION BATTERY $0.00
1 41W1787 SBB CPK NORTH AMERICA $0.00
1 42V8339 SBB LPACK US ENGLISH $0.00
1 41C9170 LENOVO THINKPLUS EXTENDED SERVICE AGREEMENT - 3 YEARS - PICK-UP AND RETURN
Total of $1,368. Damn fair from what I've had to go through with Hewlett Crapard with their "tech support".
You can buy a Panasonic Toughbook, that's about it.
Chances are, any new laptop you buy, is most likely at least produced in China. Even Clevo, a Taiwanese company, produces its laptops in China. Just buy another Thinkpad, they're still great and Lenevo has a better record than all the other laptop producers in terms of labor and pollution.
Get the lead out and look at Fujitsu LifeBook! I just spent ~$2k on a 1610 mini with added DVD burner, floppy, and bonus Lexmark Scan/Print/Fax!
Quality piece. Was made in and shipped from Japan.
Like NT5; this is my only NT5.1/XP & I spooked at the End-Usage-misLicense-disAgreement I Called Fuji once, got support from CANADA. Guys said 24/7 lifetime Fujitsu support.
Oh my, the endurapro looks awesome. It actually has buckling springs like a Model M. That's awfully tempting, thanks!
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
I'm also a long-time Thinkpad user (I still have a working 600X running Linux), and the only notebook I've ever used that I think is as good (albeit very different) than a ThinkPad is the MacBook Pro I'm using at work. If you really want something other than a ThinkPad, give one a look.
That said, there isn't anything you can buy that won' have a bunch of its components made and/or assembled in China. That's just a fact on the ground. Another poster mentioned that Fujitsu notebooks are still made in Japan. Assuming that as true without verifying it, even if the machine is made in Japan, some of its components will almost certainly be made in China, especially electrical things like power supplies.
Whether that matter of degree (a Japanese-made machine with some Chinese parts Vs. a Chinese-made machine with some non-Chinese parts) is important or not is something you'll have to decide for yourself, but one thing is pretty sure: it's very, very hard, if not impossible, to buy a computer that doesn't have at least some Chinese-made parts.
Finally, while China is a major vendor (at least) to the Burmese government for arms, and has human rights problems of its own, it is not China that is doing this, it is the Burmese government. Also, AFAIK, Lenovo is not a state-owned company (someone correct me on that if I'm wrong), so they are sort of an innocent bystander to this. Still, if you feel China is culpable enough here that you want to boycott all Chinese products, then do what you have to do.
A coworker bought one a year ago, again claiming it was the most reliable thing ever. It overheated and died within a month. Under warentee, he returned it for another one. That one summarily died at the hands of a 12 oz can of coke, falling from a shelf on his desk spitting the plastic case. The thrid one seems to be working ok though, and he's decided to stop storing cans of coke on the shelf.
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
If you think that your spending patterns will affect how business is done ... well it's time to leave Wonderland and come to reality. ...eBay!!).
If you really want to make a change - spend your $$ to buy a politician. Yes I really mean BUY.
Most democracies (at least that I know of - i.e. USA/UK/India) have become farces where the people don't matter. They get to choose between say 4-5 equally rotten, mutually indistinguishable, scoundrels (in the US' case it's a binary choice between an ass and a donkey).
So given this state of affairs - it's best to buy a politician - plainly and directly (say an ad on CraigsList or
Rather than go from
we-the-people==>companies==>"the economy"==>Dollars==>policies
why don't we cut the crap and just go from
we-the-people==>Dollars=>policies!
You could try buying a Panasonic Toughbook. Not really cheap but as far as I know, they're made in Japan. AND they're quality stuff.
Taiwan is a modern, peaceful democracy. You could think of it as "the anti-China." I think MacBooks and iPods are manufactured there.
That that is is that that that that is not is not.
I'm the IT Manager of a large construction company and my employees put a lot of strain on their laptops (jobsite's are very dusty and whatnot)
I've looked into the Panasonic Toughbook series and they aren't nearly as bulletproof as everyone thinks they are....at least the older ones weren't....
Dell does make a single hardened model: the Latitude ATG 630. It has all the requirements of a hardenend unit but from a Cost Benefit point of view, the extra $900.00 for the body and internal armor, the piddly 32GB Solid State HD, and the bright-light viewable screen.
http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/latit_atg_d630?c=us&l=en&s=bsd&cs=04
The only drawback with these machines is they come with integrated graphics, but that might not be an issue for you. You can get it with either XP or Vista, and they have some Ubuntu drivers listed on their support page.
You can also look at these guys: http://www.ruggednotebooks.com/ but I think that would probably be overkill
Good luck. I would say the closest would be either Apple or HP.
God, Root, Whats the difference?
There are several places on the net that sell SAGER LapTops...
These are MONSTER Machines...
DURABLE, RELIABLE, PACKED WITH EVERYTHING...
The only drawback is, they are expensive...
http://www.sagernotebook.com/default.php
(machine packed with everything - and I do mean EVERYTHING) $4814.00
--E--
The last of the great T line of IBM laptops. You could also try Toshiba Portege 3490CT which is pretty much the same hardware in a smaller magnesium casing.
China in 2007 is just like China in 1977 except that its central bank owns more Treasuries. Why didn't I realize that?
Look, anyone who reads a newspaper knows that, since that time, (a) a panoply of totalitarian institutions have been dismantled, leading to unprecedented levels of personal autonomy from the state; (b) standards of living have grown dramatically, as peasants join the industrial economy and the middle class swells; (c) economic freedoms have gone from negligible to moderate, and even in some ways robust; and that (d) these changes are strongly correlated with massive exports of manufactured goods and an influx of foreign risk capital. You draw your own conclusions.
Seriously. Insert Apple, Lenovo, Fujitsu, Dell, etc.... I swear that 50% of the posts are ads.
For the geographically challenged moderators: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_China
Another FYI: Sure Asus appears to be made in Taiwan. But assembly costs are still 1/2 or less of Taiwan's in China. I'll bet the last dollar in my pocket that Asus, like every major Taiwanese manufacturer is practically building the laptop in China.
Technically it may say Made in Taiwan, but practically, it's not. It just can't be. The wikipedia says so: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASUS
Got Trader Joe's? friendwich.com RSS feeds work now!
Most everything else is made in Taiwan, a separate country, containing the exiles who fled China when the communists took over.
I manage a university bio materials lab and do not work for any electronics firm.
My Fuj 1610 mini has faults due to size. ~9" screen, narrow keys, deficits due to size. But is is easy to carry & use.
And QUALITY and not supporting the country selling bad tires, toxic food, lead toys was his goal!
I have worked with all of the notebook OEMs and can tell you that:
- The Thinkpad T-series have always been designed in the Yamato design centre near Tokyo
- When Lenovo acquired IBM's PC business, this design centre and its employees became part of lenovo
- The very same people are designing the T-series machines today as did in the IBM days
- The design rigour, testing and general quality level is the highest in the industry, BAR NONE.
Note that all this applies for the T-series Thinkpads only. I know that some of their other lines are designed in Japan, but other Thinkpads may be designed in Taiwan or China.
Hope this helps. I love my T42p, would love to replace it with another T-series...
I own a t41p th servell serves me well. I used my friends T60 and the new keyboard arrangement annoyed me. I was impressed by the build quality of the dell Vostro and the HP NC8460(they have the nub which I still like to use sometimes)
Foxconn is a Taiwanese company, with facilities in China. It also has operations here in Houston, TX as well as across the border in Mexico. It is true that a majority of assembly work or low-end, intensive labor are done in China. It's owner/Chairman of the company is one of the wealthiest person in Taiwan. And yes, his residency is in Taiwan. The information above are well documented and available on the Internet.
Foxconn is also a public traded company in Taiwan's stock market.
The Land of Taiwan has a fully democratic government with a president directly elected by its people. The official name of the government is The Republic of China. However the mainland Chinese government (with the official name People's Republic of China) does not rule Taiwan. The last time I checked (few minutes ago) people in Taiwan still runs their own government without directions from the Chinese government. It has laws and regulations to protect its citizens, just as it is here in Western countries.
Please check your resources before dogging another company who are in the same position as Dell, HP. Those are OEM companies, but they are OEMs that are based in Taiwan and have the same delima as HP and Dell does.
A side note: Most of the WD harddrives I have come across are made in Singapore. Another Democratic country. Seagate's harddrive are partly made in Malaysia and partly made in China.
Panasonic has a series of amazing laptops that's mostly sold in Japan, although one model (the Y series) has made it to the US. I'm using an R6 that I got through geekstuff4u, a company in Tokyo that exports stuff for geeky foreigners... The R6, the smallest model, has a 10" screen, core 2 duo processor, 4+ hours of battery time, 80gb harddrive, weighs about 2 pounds - and can withstand a drop from 2.5 feet, 200 pounds of pressure and the keyboard is waterproof. (No, I haven't tried it myself ... but there are videos on Youtube with people confirming this.)
The Y is the largest in the series. It has the same durability specs (drop, water et.c.) as the smaller ones, but it comes with a built in optical drive and a 14" screen, and weighs about 3 pounds. That one is officially for sale in the US.
Oh, and I've been told that this Panasonic series is all manufactured in Japan. In the US, the Y5 (latest model, I believe) is sold as part of the toughbook series, but in Japan the series is called "Let's note!".
Good luck.
Mod up pls kthx
For those who didn't get it, please refer to post 20783211 above.
Microsoft put the "sucks" in "success".
With the steady slide of the value of the US dollar compared to every other currency in the world, it'll get easier to get products that are made in the US.
I got this about a month ago and in less than a week it was freezing 2-3 times a day. I suspected Norton or some of the other installed software. Well, I uninstalled Norton. Still freezing up. Tried to uninstall as much of the built-in tools/security software I could, but still froze. Alas, I put in for a new laptop and got a MacBook Pro instead. I'm a PC guy in a mac world now, but it feels better than the Lenovo Thinkpad did.
Nawwww...
404555974007725459910684486621289147856453481154 in hex is "You sank my Battleship?"
[GPG key in journal]
It's been a while since I last bought LEGO for my son - he has plenty! - so I can't say whether there is any LEGO production in China at the moment. It may be so. I just checked Google ('"LEGO" "produktion" "Kina"', yielding mostly Danish results, which are perhaps a little more likely to be accurate) and there are several hits that seem to indicate that LEGO has no or very little production based in China. Not out of ethical concerns, but because it didn't really make economical sense.
However, the financial troubles LEGO was in just a few years ago are over now, and LEGO is doing very fine again. This success is partly based on outsourcing the production almost completely from Denmark (where the industries are now fast running out of hands due to a workforce shortage - we are fast going towards zero or negative unemployment, and our economy is stronger than ever), and on reinstating classic/basic LEGO values and principles, and the traditional product lines. (The huge success of Star Wars LEGO may also have played a part.)
So, regarding China, LEGO is not a big player. I suspect another good reason is that the quality achievable would not be up to the extreme standards of LEGO, whether it be plastic composition and color, or dimensional tolerances. Back in the 80es, LEGO was criticized sharply in Denmark because the yellow bricks were suspected to contain cadmium. I doubt they want to repeat that on a world scale, like what happened recently with Mattel. Chinese plastic just stinks - literally.
Regarding finance, LEGO is doing very well right now, and saving up to ensure they can withstand another crisis if necessary. So, to sum things up, all is well in LEGOland. (Although LEGO doesn't actually own the first LEGOland themepark anymore, which I think is a big shame, LEGO still controls its "spirit".)
-Lasse
Here's something to get you started.
Considering that the modern idea of civilized behaviour entails peoples' rights to such incomprehensible things as self-determination and the freedom of speech and religion and especially from the fear of remorseless genocide by expansionist neighbours, the chinese Han-chauvinists certainly have great deal of catching up to do in terms of civilization. The jingoistic Party indoctrination appears to work wonders on Chinese people's critical thinking faculties.
Should invading one's peaceful neighbours be opposed, or rewarded with trade deals?
I guess for the authentic nipple experience you need an IBM Space Saver. I have one, and it's pretty much the best keyboard I know.
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
The U.S. is invading every damn country in the world and is responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians and you're not going to buy a laptop from a Chinese company because of civil rights issues? Maybe you should also use leaves from your backyard instead of toilet paper from now on.
He never said the USA was perfect, or that was even acceptable. He made the statement that we are pretty free, especially compared to China. This is a very defensible statement. Lots of citizens are really pissed off about that stuff and are actively protesting and trying to change it. You can't even do that in China, which makes us an entire degree of separation better off than the Chinese. That is not lowering standards, that is pointing out what should be the fucking obvious, but apparently wasn't to YOU.
Frankly, I appreciate you cynical outlook. Global industry is much more pervasive than we are willing to admit . When made in America means 50% + .000000...1 what action is possible to alter world politics? Well, my perspective is to do what YOU can. There is this thing, I don't know if you've heard about it, called the internet. Search for where parts are sourced, invest in companies promoting human rights, have third party verified labour practices. You will find that there is a large and GROWING community that is pushing shareholder votes on these issues. Why do think that DELL is offering recycling and vostro lines of computers? Take advantage. Get involved. One person can and does make a difference.
DNA, the splice of life.
Get a used R60 or T42p. You'll be able to extract years out of it. They were the last laptops sold just before Lenovo stepped in. I'm not sure but I think early T60 laptops were also IBM.
If you're feeling nationalist... buy a Gateway. And while you're at it, get a Dodge Neon as well. And drink American beer.
Just kidding...
"Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
certainly your moral fabric should also recoil in horror if you were to purchase an _american_ laptop.
theres a little police action happening in a small oil-rich country in the middle east that has been shown to have been predicated on fabrication and hubris, clearly against all international law, and has left anywhere between 100,000 and 500,000 dead ( not to mention many more displaced ).
whats more, even long term public figures are publicly acknowledging it was entirely about the oil: link , literally bush and co invaded a sovereign nation in order to take control of that nations natural resources.
now, if you can overlook this little indiscretion, i'm sure you can also manage to overlook one sovereign state ( china ) _not_ intervening in another sovereign states' affairs ( burma ).
just buy the lenovo.
I suggest one of the new macbooks. They are very well built, better even than the thinkpad in my opinion. You can install any OS you want on them. I ended up getting a Thinkpad T60 simply because I didn't like the price for the model I wanted on the macbook (black cover), and I don't really like the wide screen.
I've had T-series notebooks for years, most recently a T42p. About 9 months ago I switched to a Fujitsu P7230 Lifebook and I love it. It's been rock solid. I can swap the DVD drive for a second battery and I get 7 hours of battery life with both batteries combined. It's amazing. It's a well-built solid machine and I would buy one again. The Dell and HP machines I looked at in comparison were all heavier and had worse battery life. The Sony's are nice (if you get one made by Sony), but they're expensive and they come with features I don't want (will Sony please just kill the Memory Stick). For comparison. The Fujitsu has an SD slot. I can't say enough good things about the Fujitsu. Larry
I think it takes a lot of moral fibre to make a stand like that Good on you
When I first read about the IBM/Lenovo split, I recall that Lenovo got the rights to some very specific uses of the IBM and "Think" (e.g. "ThinkPad", ThinkWhatever) trademarks, for a certain amount of time. I'm not sure when that expires, but I don't doubt that they could be making ones and still using the brand (and why not, it's a solid brand -- I would).
From what I've heard, most of the negative comments about the "new" Lenovo units are about the value-priced (grey) ones, and fewer are about the actual ThinkPads. Most of the negative things I have heard about the ThinkPads are about the keyboards, and it seems to be a hit-or-miss thing (the keyboards from one factory are preferred by some users over the others).
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
Exactly which Union (as in 'non-union') do you have in mind?
> He made the statement that we are pretty free, especially compared to China.
But how is that even a useful comparison? We're failing, in my opinion, to live up to
our own ideals. Why is it even worth _mentioning_ that there are places that fail even
more dramatically to live up to our ideals?
I hear what you're saying, but I don't understand your reasons for saying it.
25% Funny, 25% Insightful, 25% Informative, 25% Troll
The MacBook Pros are very solidly built and offer all the whizz bang you could ever want. They run Windows XP or Vista natively too if you absolutely and foolishly insist... Linux too, but probably not as easily, since Apple uses EFI and not BIOS.
Beauty is in the beholder of the eye.
Bah.
1 Gig.
Hooray for the AC currents on slashdot.
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
I hate what the US and the UK are doing in Iraq.
Now pray tell me, what should I boycott? If I add that to a boycott against China then my only option would be to live in a cave, but not here in the UK I suppose because I would still be aiding the disastrous foreign UK policies. I suppose I should get rid of my job and feed myself with wild strawberries and road kill....
When you stand for your principles you have to strike a balance between what you would like to do and between what you can do and will have any real effect.
Nowadays media shamming is the most successful tool against any government, any person committed enough can help a lot with that.
Or give money to one of several organizations doing work in the ground documenting abuses of human rights and helping political prisoners.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Say what you may wish, but Chinese people live in general terms better today than what they did 50 or 100 years ago, and many of them are old enough to remember those times and tell their younger relatives about them.
Somebody that is working in a manufacturing plant in China earning a reasonable living will have on his mind the bad times when granddad almost starved to death during the first half of the last century or will recall the histories of the disastrous Cultural Revolution that dad had to endure. Compared to that the current lot, promoting economic development, are real saints.
People in the West think that democracy with multi party elections is the only way to achieve material progress, places like Singapore (a dictatorship in all sense but name), Malaysia (an "apartheid light" Muslim state) and of course China (which defies definition nowadays, they are not a dictatorship strictly speaking, they are not a democracy in the western sense, but they have elections) probe that people can be bettered by different social means and they will fierce loyal to their respective leaderships even if by Western standards the governments are dismal in one way or another.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
guangxi is not corruption, no matter how you want to spin it. Corruption is corruption and it is completely different from the concept of guangxi.
Also naming the Chinese government as fascist shows a lack of education that should not go unnoticed.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
In today's world Nazi Germany would have investments everywhere and would produce good for many countries.
But in today's world a country like Nazi Germany can't exists, by the simple fact that Nazi Germany has already happened and it is highly unlikely it will happen again.
In the years previous to WWII international commerce was not as big as it is today, so any boycott would have been pointless.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
In the meantime between 30000 and 600000 people (depending who you believe) have died in Iraq as a consequence of the US invasion.
But they are free to pray.
Give me a fucking brake.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
And you still insist to mkae it appear as a good and heroic endeavour.
It seems not only Chinese citizens are completely idiotic when it comes to judge their own governments actions.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
And somehow that makes the US system better.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I think I understand where you're coming from. Even though everything is made in China it's still different to buy something from a Chinese owned corporation. I have a T40 from just before the switch. It's 4 yrs old and still amazing. But heck I'm not gonna buy a Lenovo again. I worked in IT at my university and the T60s broke all the time. I would go for a Toshiba, Sony, Acer, or Apple. Good luck. It's so sad when one has to replace their baby.
We just have a small dorm fridge at work and don't do a good job of coordinating soda purchases. So sometimes there isn't enough room in the fridge. That having being said, I am the odd ball that prefers my soda at room temperature, so I always leave some out as well.
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
ThinkPads were always made in China, you know. :)
Anyway, I replaced mine with a Mac. I wanted the ability to drive most printers, scanners, etc., without booting Windows. I had about one choice.
My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
Aye, mine was made in Scotland..... from girders
I thought my Thinkpad was a great laptop until I replaced it with a MacBook Pro. It is a far superior laptop and a much more enjoyable computing experience. It's fun! I run Windows XP and Ubuntu Linux as virtual machines in Parallels. Windows application, especially Photoshop Elements, seem to run much better in the Windows XP Virtual Machine than it did on my old 2 GHz Thinkpad. Good luck.
And somehow that makes the US system better
The US system is better. People wrote that Putin was a murderer for Chechnya. One by one, as all of them were squeezed out of business, assasinated, or other otherwise silenced. You may not agree with the invasion, but, at least you can criticize it and even take action to a point, to undermine the US military effort there. In most other countries, you could be assasinated as a traitor for even coming out against a war that nation is fighting, wheras in America, all you have is people calling you names but with really no other consequence to you. I'd say that's a freer system.
This is my sig.
But how is that even a useful comparison? We're failing, in my opinion, to live up to our own ideals. Why is it even worth _mentioning_ that there are places that fail even more dramatically to live up to our ideals?
;-)
It's worth mentioning because the topic is "Replacing a Thinkpad", and some people consider more than just price when they buy things. In particular, some people here are obviously aware of the slave-like conditions in some parts of the world, especially several east-Asian countries, and would like to avoid supporting such economies even if it costs them a few more dollars.
If you consider price the only significant thing, you should just skip over these kinds of message threads. But objecting to them will fall on many deaf ears, as some of us do take more than price into account, incomprehensible as that may seem to others.
It may also be worth mentioning that slavery still exists in the US. Perhaps not to the level that it exists in China, Malasia, and other countries, but there are US court cases dealing with it every year. Some of the US sweatshops are producing goods for some well-known companies. If you consider this significant, you might look into it, too. Such problems aren't limited to just China and a few other poor countries.
(For that matter, there is also non-slave labor in China. Thought you might like to know.
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
American beer is the worst in the world and I'd prefer to drink cat's piss.
Test why your argument fails. Let modding commence.
.
you realize, your logic is the same as "I can't bear to buy American because the American government invaded Iraq".
expandfairuse.org
Um, what's the consensus? I'm still using my "Made in Mexico" T23 and I need a replacement. . . . Lenovo and anything "assembled in China" is not an option. I'm realist and I do my best to void things made or assembled in China. Some interior parts may be made in China, but that's something I will have to live with. What can I buy these days with SXGA or better screen and a trackpoint that runs Linux? BTW, ASUS is great in that quite a few of them are still being made in Taiwan but none of them have trackpoints. Regardless of whatever crap the Chinese government wants to say about Taiwan, unless they can fly their five star flag over Taiwan and install a puppet government like Hong Kong, Taiwan is still a democratic country and is NOT a part of China. C'mon people. USA is not exactly the model democracy under GW Bush, but is is still a long way to becoming a single party government where people can't vote, can't voice their oppositions, government regulates reincarnation, and government banned the voting part of American Idol because it may give its audience the wrong ideas. . . . I'm a registered Republican, but I want to see GW Bush impeached and I never thought I will miss President Clinton. . . enough politics. . . What's the consensus on non-assembled in China, non-Lenovo Thinkpad replacement?
Yes Sir! No generalizing about the Good Ol' USA then!
The IBM/Lenovo deal was just a ploy to offload some debt to another company and get better access to Chinese markets. For the most part, Lenovo bigshots are same IBMers that were there before.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK