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Why Is US Grad School Mainly Non-US Students?
I am a new graduate student in Computer Engineering. I would like to get my MS and possibly my Ph.D. I have learned that 90% of my department is from India and many others are from China. All the students come here to study and there are only 7 US citizens in the engineering program this year. Why is that? I have heard that many of the smarter Americans go into medicine or the law and that is why there are so few Americans in engineering. Is this true?
It's a matter of economics, are you going to invest that much money and time in something when significant portions of the grad level work is being exported out of the country? With major corporations from the likes of Microsoft to IBM hiring principally outside the US in China and India, this is where the jobs will be and thus, where the grad students are coming from.
The real slap in the face of the whole thing is that said companies than have the audacity to complain that we don't have enough educated workers to provide a workforce here in America.
A lot of foreign students are here on a foreign student visa. If they fuck up in school, they get sent back. So, by accepting a foreign student, the department has a very good idea that that student will be putting in 110% into the degree program, doing shit work for no money, whatever, when a domestic student is more likely to just tell an abusive department to fuck off and die and move to another school. It may also be that the student is less likely to be partying on the weekends (social stigma), and so grades won't be much of an issue if they made it that far.
:P
:)
I thought about going to grad school for Biology as I have a keen interest in various fish and some local rivers & streams ecology that I picked up on my own. I had a sit down with the Dean of the Biology department where we basically shot the shit for an hour or two, talking about various subjects, including programs at other schools. He seemed surprised that not only did I know who the "big names" in my relatively obscure interests, but that I was also reading their papers and applying them. He looked at me and asked me point blank: Why the hell aren't you in my department? And I didn't have a good answer. He went on to explain that there's a ton of people in Biology grad school, but none of them were actually biologists. Instead, they were padding grades and trying to get into med school. While he was most certainly happy that they were going on with their lives, he said finding people actually interested in Biology was like pulling teeth. Basically: he'd pick someone like me, regardless of my GRE scores for the most part, over a mountain of med school hopefuls because it was his job, as far as he was concerned, to educate biologists. It was an interesting conversation. "Man, you could get your doctorate just doing what you're doing now at home on your own dime..."
And no, I didn't go to grad school. Not yet, anyway.
If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
I work for a research branch at NASA that routinely funds basic research at the Graduate level (both Master's and Ph.D.). Unfortunately, many of the students working on the projects that we fund are from foreign nations, and this is due to a lack of either qualified or willing US citizens in Graduate programs around the country studying in our area of interest (which is not space related). The issue is a major problem, and the poster and slashdot readers should be concerned. Be concerned, if for no other reason than many of your tax dollars are being spent to support foreign students studying in the US.
Name: Mr. Anon E Mouse; SSN: 555-55-5555
Do these foreign students pay taxes in the US? If so, how long did they or do they pay? Is it a net gain for the US or a loss? If a loss then why is it done?
Ah questions...
Codifex Maximus ~ In search of... a shorter sig.
In my experience, yes. Most Americans go to college to "get a better job" or because they want to enter a certain field. They are, to coin a phrase, "goal oriented" -- school is a funnel into which they jump and once they get out the other end they can go back to living their lives, only now they will have been granted permission to enter into the career of their choice. So-called elite schools are desirable, not because they offer a better learning experience, but because they will "look better" to potential employers.
Breakfast served all day!
In academic America, graduate schools pay YOU :)
Seriously, graduate school (at least on the doctoral level) in science and engineering is usually very well funded. Not only is it common to get free tuition, but it is also common to receive a stipend. It's less than you'd get working, but it's still something.
Not so in medicine or law, AFAIK.
Longer answer:
Because engineering speaks the universal language - Mathematics. Medicine and law requires much more English and culture-specific communication skills, and it is very difficult for foreign students to break into these professions (except British students perhaps).
It is also one of the reasons your medical and legal bills are going through the roof, but your laptops keep dropping in price.
I suppose you felt witty and insightful for that remark, but you know as well as I that the situations are not comparable. Few people claim that what the European colonists, followed by the United States Federal Government, did to the indigenous population was anything other than "might makes right." The Gold Rush period was particularly disturbing, considering that the Native Americans were abiding by the territorial agreements. But it is what usually happens when a more powerful culture first encounters a weaker one that has something the other wants. It's happened throughout human history, it's still happening and it will continue to happen.
... WhiteEyes.
Your comment is interesting. Apparently, as an American I'm not to be allowed to make legitimate commentary on activities and trends happening within the borders of my own country that I perceive as being detrimental to me and mine. Nor, as an American, am I permitted to believe that our immigration laws should be considered anything more than a minor inconvenience for anyone, from anywhere, who decides they want to live here. Tell you what: go to any other country on Earth and try that. You'll be laughed out of the room.
What I object to (besides the fact that America is willingly training its competition in the global economy) is the fundamental hypocrisy I see in most discussions on this issue. Any person from another country that perceives any kind of a threat from the United States feels perfectly free to criticize and lambaste us for all sorts of real and imagined misdeeds: it's become a form of entertainment it appears. But let an American call a halt and say, "Now just wait a goddamned minute. What's being done to us isn't kosher either" and he is immediately called all sorts of names (someone recently called me a "paleface") and dismissed as a bigoted fool.
I have as much right as anyone to look at what it is happening all around me, and call 'em as I see 'em. And I will
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
We sold weapons to Iran before and after the Shah. We just concluded a massive weapons deal with Saudi Arabia. To be honest, I don't think Saudi Arabia or 90's era Liberia are any more democratic than North Korea. Don't claim the moral high-ground unless you can justify giving 20 billion USD in advanced weaponry to a tyrannical theocracy known for sponsoring terrorism.
And as for China's willingness to invade democracies when it suits their self interest, see what the US did in 1956 to Iran(Check out Operation Ajax on Wikipeida), and what the US did to Guatemala during the Cold war; Or what the CIA did in Chile, or the Congo, I could go on.
Of course, every country with power and influence has black marks. See France's activities in West Africa and Rwanda, their current activities in Niger, to say nothing of their history in Indochina and Algeria; Or see the UK's actions in Uganda, Former Rhodesia, Iran, and Suez. Don't even get me started on Russia or Israel.
The truth is, governments are rather soulless entities, which by design act in their own self-interest. To ascribe personal qualities to them like evil is idiotic and counter-productive. Instead, we have to understand the pressures a nation's leaders face.
China is an ethnic powder keg teeming with religious and ethnic strife, Jingoism, and hyper-Nationalism. They have massive inequalities of wealth, and a population schooled in Marxism. In the meantime, rapid economic, political, and demographic trends have made most government and societal institutions irrelevant.
Faced with this, what do you think the Chinese leaders want the most? Stability. Every single action they take, from supporting dictatorships in Burma and North Korea, to propping up the US economy with bond purchases, to refusing to float their currency. China has no urge to pick a fight with America, not now and not ever. They have their own problems to worry about, and the last thing they want to do is add another.
Your problem is most people don't see dental care as health care, it's seen as an elective cosmetic and vainity thing. We know the the kind of havok periodontal or endodontic infections can have on the patients health, but tell the average person on the street that a gum infection can cause inflamation that can and does lead to heart attacks and kills people and they'll look at you like your stupid. The other problem is your dental school glossed over something and that's removeables, removeables are booming right now, monday I'm going to have to order more articulators. I've got so many dentures in the lab that I've run out of articulators friday, and the complete and partials are expected to just keep growing until 2025, yet most dentists just blow off denture patients, yet they refer out almost all of their extractions to OS and the majority endo all without get a referal fee from the specialists. If you want to make money, learn removeables inside and out, start doing your own extractions and endo except the really difficult cases, and do Medical billing whjen ever possible. Medical billing gives you bigger fees, less writeoffs and saves the dental maximums for dental care.
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
I don't agree with your assertion that a technology-heavy workforce is not necessary for a strong economy. That might be true for a small economy that has a strong influx of money for some other reason (Switzerland), but wealth is created by advancing technology. Why has the US economy been so strong for most of our lifetimes? Because we have the most lawyers? Or, because we had the best technology ranging from automobiles, to airplanes, to semiconductors to electronics, to some of the most efficient food production, to construction?
Looking through history, countries were economically strong compared to the rest of the world mostly because they had better technology. Most of the time, those countries raised their own standard of living and sold the products of that technology at great profit. Sure, there were colonizing powers that leveraged internal instability of their colonies to rule and steal, but for the most part such powers also had superior military technology. Which is still better technology.
My friends at NEC in Japan are very worried about Samsung because they are making stuff that people want to buy. Through better technology. That they originally learned from the Japanese and the US but have been refining.
There has been a marked increase in the number of Korean graduate students in top engineering schools over the last 10 to 15 years by the way.
> Advanced societies that are governed by the rule of law and that require complex rules will naturally require more lawyers.
What a load of nonsense. You're making 2 assumptions:
1) That advanced socities have complex law.
2) Lawyers are needed.
An "advanced" society will have people who have internalized the law -- they don't need others to interpret it for them. Do YOU need a law against killing? Of course not -- you know better. A civilization where people are blind to the consequences of their actions is not advanced. Advanced socities have LESS laws, because in reality there is only a few Laws: The Law of Karma, and the Law of Love, everything else springs from ignorance, greed, or power.
Western civilization is by no means advanced. When you still have people arguing over Intellectual Property Rights which are neither Property nor Rights, you have an IMMATURE society.
Lawyers are a necessary evil, because people don't know any better.
--
The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government
-- Tacit, 56-117 AD
To answer your question, ask how many old engineers you've met. Generally, an Engineering career lasts how long? When I got my Masters' in Computer Science people were talking about "structured programming" and things like OO and XP didn't exist. If you're going to go into Engineering, you'll have to spend a lot of thought keeping current. This probably true of medicine and law, too, but it seems that the human body and human nature are pretty much the same as they were a thousand years ago.
You don't hear as much about age discrimination, but I figure it's real in Engineering (illegality notwithstanding) more so than other professions. Given this, it makes more sense to invest the extra time and money of post-graduate education in something that'll pay back in a longer career.
I was debunking the claim that rising Chinese technology and economic dominance is not something to be afraid of.
The reason why more Indian and Chinese students go to grad school is fairly simple, at least in any tech-related (IT, Biotech, etc.): fewer Americans are taking up those majors to begin with, because they know these jobs are going overseas.
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
This question keeps coming up on Slashdot, in one form or another, and my answer is always the same: Economics.
For most students who intend to enter the commercial sector, getting the "one up" degree just doesn't pay that well. Speaking about engineering specifically:
1. Graduate with a BS/BA. Get a job, work for two years, and you'll be on just about even ground (salary-wise) with the guy who got his MS/MA. And you won't have picked up the debt/costs associated with getting the MS/MA. I ran the numbers for me, and the payback on this is about 6-7 years.
2. Graduate with an MS/MA. Get a job, work for three years, and you'll be on even ground -- or often better -- with the guy who got his PhD. And you won't have picked up the debt/costs associated with the MS/MA. I ran the numbers for me, and the payback on this is about 15-20 years.
And the kicker: Anyone smart enough to get a graduate degree can run those numbers. This doesn't even include the opportunity cost of delaying starting a family while you pursue the degree.
However, foreign students have an added sweetener in the pot: it's easier to stay in America to make the big bucks if you have a graduate degree. And this tips the equation significantly.
I just want to puke whenever I hear US firms bitching and moaning about how there aren't enough American graduate scientists/engineers. It's simple economics, you bunch of whining douche bags. You understand them, because when demand for your products goes up, you're quite happy to raise the price. But when the shoe is on the other foot? You whine, bitch and moan about how employment costs are out of hand.
Again, it's simple economics, supply and demand. Supply short? Pay more. If it doesn't, don't be surprised when supply stays low.