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The 700MHz Question

mstrchf07 writes "The FCC will soon be auctioning off the rights to use the 700MHz spectrum for wireless communications, with the winner being able to choose the direction of wireless services development in the US. With stakes this high, is the playing field fair, and are business needs trumping consumer and technological interests?"

36 of 148 comments (clear)

  1. We need google to buy it by unity100 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    just like early years of internet. some source that is open and free should take custody of it until it is no longer vulnerable.

    1. Re:We need google to buy it by p0tat03 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Google is open and free now? Wow! Where can I get a copy of their search engine source?!

      I have my doubts that Google can remain "not evil" (on the overall karmic scale) for much longer. I would think a non-profit, transparent entity would be far more appropriate.

    2. Re:We need google to buy it by LWATCDR · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The founders of Google have a private customized 767! Unless they fill 200 or so seats in it every time they fly I think that alone rates as a large chunk of evil. I am saying that they couldn't have a private jet but there are many smaller private jets with just as much range and a lot smaller carbon footprint.
      I don't think that Google is a very evil company. But I wouldn't put them on any pedestal as a great benefactor. As too who gets the spectrum. Well I would like to see Sprint get it since they are currently the least evil of the cell companies in the US. They allow you to put 3rd party applications on their phones.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    3. Re:We need google to buy it by unity100 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      its the best we got at our hands pal.

    4. Re:We need google to buy it by timeOday · · Score: 5, Insightful
      The question isn't really whether whoever gets the spectrum is evil, but rather how well their interests align with those of the user base (you and me). Google is in a rather special situation because 1) they are not a network provider (like Verizon and Comcast, whose goal is maximize revenue from - yet minimize investment in - infrastructure), yet 2) google is not a normal content provider, either - mainly they provide links to other content, since their main product is advertising. What this means is that google has a unique business interest in encouraging new services - especially data services - that (i.e.) Verizon does not.

      Here's the best paragraph from the article:

      Will Google buy the spectrum? They certainly have enough spare cash to do so. If they do, it seems unlikely that they would operate the network themselves since it's a long way away from their core business. Instead, they would be likely to sublicense it to other players with the four conditions they originally hoped the FCC would impose [ensuring open services and open networks].
      If this were to happen, I think it would be a good example of the free market working as intended. US cellphone companies are destroying much of the value of the spectrum they control in order to serve their own narrow interests (e.g. charging hundreds of dollars per megabyte for SMS messages). Since google's business model provides more value to more people, google has more cash on hand to win the bandwidth auction. With any luck this could all work out just right.
    5. Re:We need google to buy it by nine-times · · Score: 5, Funny

      Well I would like to see Sprint get it since they are currently the least evil of the cell companies in the US.

      Sounds a bit like saying, "I want to sell my soul to Mephistopheles because he's the least evil demon in hell!"

  2. I think someone has a sig relevant to this news... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    specifically:

    In Soviet Russia, government controls the commerce.

    If you don't get why that is amusing and appropriate - this about the nature of the Soviet Russia jokes, and what that says about the US.

  3. Well... by MightyMartian · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...are business needs trumping consumer and technological interests?


    Don't they always?
    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    1. Re:Well... by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They didn't always. I'm old enough to remember times when it was different.

      There actually were politicians who remembered that one of the big sources of the depression of the 30s was that people didn't have money to actually buy crap, so what was produced could not be sold, products piling up and businesses going under because of it. So they tried to keep at least enough in our pockets so we could go 'n spend.

      Unfortunately, few politicians still remember those days. Most that are on the helm today only remember the 60s, where the aforementioned politicians (those who did remember) were in control, and all our current politicians learned that people always had enough money to spend, so shifting more money towards those that already have can't hurt too much, we'll keep buying.

      I just wonder: What should we buy crap with when we barely earn enough to get by? Let's imagine I make DVD players. Now, you want one, I want one, a lot of people want one. When each of us has 2000 bucks to spend, we'll both buy one. When I got 4000 and you got zip, I'll buy one. You can't afford it, so you won't. I only need one player, though (what would I do with two?). So instead of two DVD players sold, it's only one.

      Extrapolate for the economy on a larger scale.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  4. Dat Wuz Rhetorical Qvestion, Yah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Nothing is ever done for the good of the consumer. Consumers don't buy off politicians. Consumers are simply a source of money.

  5. Total bandwidth? by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 5, Informative

    If I understand the article correctly, it would seem that 700 Mhz spectrum would only give you 15 MB/s of available bandwidth if it used similar compression techniques to 802.11g. If, as the article suggests, this spectrum were to be used for some big WISP, maybe Google, it wouldn't seem to me to be very viable as the available bandwidth would be split amongst LOTS of users in order to keep it cheap. Now, UMPCs and mobile devices conceivably need less bandwidth, but then, isn't that what we have wireless phone service for?

    It seems to be like this article is a bunch of meaningless speculation about Google's plans for being a ubiquitous WISP.

    1. Re:Total bandwidth? by skiingyac · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think the most realistic case for Google getting into this is not as a regular WISP, but as a "Wireless Google Service Provider". That is, free wireless access to Google and related services (and companies who have paid them) via their spectrum, and not general internet access (you can already pay your cell phone company for that, as many have pointed out). Then, Google either generates sufficient hype/pressure/etc. to get cell phone manufacturers to add support for this new spectrum & service (and wifi, etc.) into their phones, or sells unlocked Google-capable cell phones directly that you just put your carrier's SIM card in. Oh, also Google partners with Apple to help Apple escape AT&T's control of the iPhone.

      Once there is enough revenue/reason to justify it, other spectrum (or the incumbents themselves) can be bought.

    2. Re:Total bandwidth? by BlueParrot · · Score: 2, Informative

      It would probably work the same way as it does for mobile phones. I.e, you restrict the signal strength so any given transmitter / receiver pair only covers a fairly small area. That way if you have sufficiently many access points you can use the same frequency many many times, in different geographical locations. There are numerous other games you can play ( as all ISPs do ) with regards to contention, traffic shaping etc... With sufficiently smart access points you could give priority to clients that use little bandwidth overall, but want a very rapid burst every now and then. You can also implement various protocols that save bandwidth, like multicast. Basically, after throwing a few "hacks" into the network you can get a remarkably efficient use of that 15MB/s, effectively meaning you use the full 15MB/s rather than having it idle for 90% of the time and then suddenly get choked by a peak in demand. Sad thing is that because this will work much better for unencrypted data ( since you can analyze it better ) it will basically mean that if users are pressured into encrypting their traffic because a couple of players *cough* just can't help but violating people's privacy, then that will negatively impact the performance of the network. Now, the network maintainers obviously won't like that, and thus you can expect to see users who care about their privacy being penalized for encrypting their data. Either actively ( connections dropped, port blocks, subscriptions canceled etc... ) or passively ( encrypted traffic gets lower priority... ).

    3. Re:Total bandwidth? by rcw-work · · Score: 3, Insightful

      it would seem that 700 Mhz spectrum would only give you 15 MB/s of available bandwidth

      You're trying to compare two separate units. 15MB/sec is not an amount of bandwidth, it is a bitrate. Bitrates much, much higher than the bandwidth can easily be achieved if you have a high enough signal-to-noise ratio. For example, a "56k" modem can achieve 53000bps in 3000hz of bandwidth. Similarly, low bitrates can still be achieved even with signal-to-noise ratios much less than one (GPS does 50bps with signals less than one thousandth the strength of the noise floor).

      To determine error-free bitrate, you need to know how much bandwidth you have, how much signal you have, how much noise you have, and also what the spectral efficiency of the modulation technique you are using is. The formula is called Shannon's Theorem.

      In other words, once the FCC announces what the maximum allowable power is for this band, then you can start speculating on how much data you can pump through it.

    4. Re:Total bandwidth? by pilgrim23 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      In the early days of commercial radio, the AM radio commercial broadcast stations were limited to 50k watts due to the networks (Mutual CBS NBC) hammering down one station (WLW; Crosley Brodcasting) which had a 200kw transitter and could run advertising cheaper and guarantee a greater audiance share. In like manner the commercial interests today will hammer any tech edge anyone develops. The someone will get the idea of setting up a huge broadcast farm in Tijuana pointed north....

      --
      - Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum.
  6. This is a rhetorical question, right? by Tony · · Score: 4, Insightful

    With stakes this high, is the playing field fair, and are business needs trumping consumer and technological interests?

    No. Yes. In that order.

    They playing field is rarely fair when business is concerned. If corporate interest is involved, there is always a corporation able to affect the environment much more than any governmental regulation; and they will always affect the environment in their own favor, whether it is in the best interest of citizens or technology or progress or any other damned thing that doesn't have anything at all to do with "maximizing profits."

    This is all stupid talk. Some corporation will end up in control of a public resource. The public will get fucked. That's how it works. That's how it always works.

    --
    Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
    1. Re:This is a rhetorical question, right? by nine-times · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This is all stupid talk. Some corporation will end up in control of a public resource. The public will get fucked. That's how it works. That's how it always works.

      I think you've hit on an interesting issue in all of this, and I wonder why you didn't put more emphasis on it. The wireless spectrum is a *public* resource. Somehow this whole debate about the 700Mhz spectrum always gets framed in such a way as to imply that some huge company necessarily must own it. However, it's technically public and only gets licensed to some company for commercial use.

      It really must not be forgotten. AT&T has no legal right to own the 700Mhz spectrum. It would be much more true to say that the people of the United States own that spectrum and always will. The question in front of us (and in front of *our* lawmakers (those lawmakers work for us!)) is how we wish to use that spectrum. Even if we license it to some particular business or group for the development of commerce or infrastructure, we have every right to put limits on how it can be developed and used.

      For some reason, we've been tricked into not thinking of things that way. Radio waves travel through the air over everyone's property and through our bodies all the time. It's inherently public, like light or air. A responsible government cannot auction off those sorts of resources without any restriction on how they can be controlled or used. Moreover, what we're talking about here is the development of a national telecommunications infrastructure. We wouldn't let a single company own all plumbing so that all pipes, faucets, sinks, and toilets had to be purchased from that company. We wouldn't allow a single company to own all of our roads and highways such that they could deny passage to any driver or any car brand. We shouldn't allow a single company to control our communications over the entire country.

      We are talking about making use of public resources in order to create national infrastructure. I have no objection to involving private companies in the development of that infrastructure, but the end result needs to be regulated in favor of the public good.

      And no, I'm not a communist or socialist. I don't believe the federal government should be involved in very much. If there's one thing the federal government should do, it's maintain a standing army. If there are two things it should do, it's maintain an army and regulate the maintenance of national infrastructure.

  7. More Specifically by asphaltjesus · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I would have loved to see a horse race with the entertainment conglomerates, google and the telcos. Sadly, the entertainment conglomerates can't see the forest through the trees and would abuse consumers just as much as the telcos.

    Telcos win, consumers lose. Same story different day.

    --
    Got Trader Joe's? friendwich.com RSS feeds work now!
  8. Re:2 words... by jimstapleton · · Score: 3, Insightful

    s/needs/wants/

    I don't think business needs are trumping individual interests - they actually parallel in a captialistic society - without the businesses, the individuals would not get what they need/want.

    No, it's the businesses wants (excesses of money, power, etc) that are trumping individual interests.

    --
    34486853790
    Connection too slow for X forwarding? Try "ssh -CX user@host"
  9. The money by OrangeTide · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So what is the FCC going to do with the money they make off this?

    --
    “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    1. Re:The money by BoberFett · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Buy filters so no nipples or curse words are sent over the airwaves?

    2. Re:The money by BoberFett · · Score: 2, Informative

      Sigh.

      Ignore the above, I haven't had my Mt Dew yet today.

  10. Re:I think someone has a sig relevant to this news by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Funny

    Glad someone got it.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  11. With the current judicial and executive branch.... by oDDmON+oUT · · Score: 4, Funny

    mstrchf07 asks ...are business needs trumping consumer and technological interests?

    Of *course*!

    And it's not even a matter of business needs, it's business greeds.

    --
    Some days it's just not worth
    chewing through my restraints.
  12. What is good for GM is good for America by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Our congress is the best legislature in the world that money can buy. They will only take care of corporate interests. Occasionally that line might benefit consumers, citizens and America in general. But that is mostly side effect.

    Just yesterday Newt Gingrich came on the George Stephenopolos(sp?) show and claimed that 70% of Americans support reduction in corporate taxes, 60% support abolition of capital gains tax etc etc. That would be alright if he is genuinely a fiscal conservative sincerely trying to reduce the size of the government. But he opened with "New Orleans is still a mess, ..." What? It is somehow the Govt's job to allow people sandwiched between Gulf of Mexico, the Mississippi and the lake to build homes below sea level and keep pumping out water and spend couple of billion dollars in the levy system?

    If Republicans would not take on people's unrealistic expectations from Govt what right they have to complain about Tax and Spend Democrats?

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    1. Re:What is good for GM is good for America by OgreChow · · Score: 2, Interesting

      So, you're saying it's not in the interest of our government to rebuild the port city on the largest river in our country?

      If it's so damned profitable, then businesses should be willing to rebuild there. And the local government there should collect the taxes it needs in order to build some proper levees, and if these taxes are too high for the businesses to exist, then it's not damned profitable enough. It's one of those "return on investment" deals. If the dollars aren't there, then it isn't worth it -- have these people move and be industrious elsewhere.

      It's not in government's interest to invest in infrastructure?

      In international, interstate infrastructure, probably. But the state government usually handles state roads, right?

      I agree with you on our ridiculous defense budget.

    2. Re:What is good for GM is good for America by cowscows · · Score: 2, Insightful

      New Orleans is an excellent place to build a city, which is why a city was built there in the first place. It is an intensely busy port, with a huge portion of the country's energy supply and seafood supply moving through it. Not to mention all the cultural stuff which is much harder to quantify.

      You can argue whether the city should've been built there all day if you want, but at the end of the day, the city's there, it's been there for hundreds of years. There are hundreds of thousands of people in the city, and hundreds of thousands more living around the city. There are hundreds of billions of dollars worth of buildings, homes, infrastructure, etc. that already exist, much of which is functional and in use.

      And don't forget that the majority of the damage that the city suffered was due to failures in the protection system that the federal government built, controlled, and told the citizens was safe. In exchange for the protection, the citizens of New Orleans and Louisiana allowed the federal government to have their way with our coastline, primarily for the benefit of the country as a whole in terms of providing energy (oil).

      Helping New Orleans rebuild and improving the storm protection and coastal restoration is the least the rest of the country could do. The amount of resources it would take to start making some significant progress is a small fraction of what our government has available to it, and it's really a shame that our priorities won't let that happen.

      --

      One time I threw a brick at a duck.

  13. Re:I think someone has a sig relevant to this news by nine-times · · Score: 3, Funny

    That is clever. It turns the whole joke on its head.

  14. good point by zogger · · Score: 3, Interesting

    A very good point. Maybe the FCC should not allow those big telcos who already are sitting on leased airwaves from bidding any further, leave it to some new companies instead. Let them run with what they have now, improve that, and let some others pull up a chair to the wireless table.

    I also think they should drastically reduce the hoop jumping and expense for lower power broadcasting, open that up as well, commercial or not for profit, it doesn't matter, we have good tech now that would allow a lot more stations on a smaller community basis rather than just extending a few conglomerates power.

  15. Business vs. Consumer by VeteranNoob · · Score: 3, Insightful

    are business needs trumping consumer and technological interests?

    YES. Where have you been?

    At least in the US, it has become so painfully obvious that our government's number one priority is Big Business. Watch the bills that are drawn and enacted in this country and you will quickly see that almost all of them are catering to business interests and, most likely, trampling on individuals' rights.

    --
    Adapt, adopt, or get out of the way!
  16. It belongs to the people by LM741N · · Score: 2

    Let the government divide the spectrum by the number of US citizens and give everyone their portion of the bandwidth. People could then band together to combine their khz or Mhz and do interesting things. But I reiterate- the spectrum belongs to us.

  17. Re:I think someone has a sig relevant to this news by Aladrin · · Score: 2, Informative

    Insightful!? The ORIGINAL Soviet Russia jokes were like that. They were not only funny, and the reverse of America, but TRUE. This is probably the first SR joke in years to actually capture to spirit of the original, and you say it got turned on its head!

    UGH!

    --
    "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
  18. Re:I think someone has a sig relevant to this news by nine-times · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Well, it is an interesting use of the joke. First, Yakov Smirnoff's version of the joke was usually to have the reverse of America, but have the American version make sense, but the Russian version paint a bad picture of Russia. The GGP post reverses this, having the Russian thing make sense and the American be corrupt. Since the joke is about reversal in the first place, reversing the reversal is in itself a bit funny.

    Also, the jokes were originally meant to be a bit dark and ironic, and then used as a Slashdot cliche they were usually ironically ironic, resulting in a sort of nonsensical whimsey. Now, another layer of irony is added, almost returning the joke to its original sense, but I would say not quite to its original sense. So much irony has basically made it a non-joke, and simply a piercing critique of current US policy. It's pointing out that as ridiculously backwards as Soviet Russia was, it still may have been less backwards than we are now.

    Now, did I really have to explain myself like that?

  19. There, fixed that for you by Anti_Climax · · Score: 2, Funny

    With stakes this high, is the playing field fair, and are business interests trumping consumer and technological needs?

    Fixed that for ya.
    --
    Even people that believe in pre-destiny look both ways before crossing the street.
  20. 700 MHz, How free? by gdmellott · · Score: 2, Funny

    I understand the digital signal can possible narrow the bandwidth required 'some'. Yet Why don't they let the Stations use the remainder also? I suspect they might be afraid that they may try to compete with the other communication service providers for supplying other supplemental information and entertainment and perhaps even two way communications. I have noted that the cell phone frequency is not a healthy one [brain tumors are a possible concern]. It probably was an analog device I was using, none the less, it was making my head feel odd on the side I was holding it. I have no real love for them anymore. As for the Government and financial system we are in; I am of the notion that the only wise way to go is to get back the original Constitution's potential for diversity in the executive branch. [We used to have two votes. It wasn't long before the political parties ground that to a halt.] Yet, since in the end the full nature of reality rules over us all; we need a system that is applied just as rigorously upon those that can put the hand of power over many, as it is applied to common science endeavors and common law. No doubt only one can be the boss. Yet the potential to check the dominate entity in the courts, at the very least, is not an insignificant influence. Likewise, the ability to sequester the executive branch where security concerns arise is understandable. Yet the facts should always eventually come out. They are sworn to service the people, not the other way around. As far as the financial system goes, we are not well induced to consider the balance of things very well. I am of the view that there need to be two kinds of money. 1) Resource money, you cannot function without the resource base. 2) Cultivation money, one can work in the realm of IOUs with it, and not run into a wall. It might also help the people consider the balance of the various factors need to have a better standard of living. Also, given that there is a concern to reach the goal of more equitable availability of resources; business will be focused on cultivating the individuals to have their resources go through their system of cultivation. Ultimately everyone is poor where they cannot fully express the nature of the benefit they could provide to the whole. We just need a more balanced way to get there. I suspect, there would develop "instutions" of views and processes that would call out their benefits, and their competitor would point out the weaknesses. At least we might be better informed. And with MUCH computerized recording, it might even be possible to have the value of the cultivation moneys change as the processes fully played out their impacts and benefits. [Even failures have some value if they are recorded and used to prevent another.] At least it would keep everyone thinking more clearly, and precisely, in harmony with the reality that rules over us all; to which, perhaps, we owe the most. Sincerely, Gregory D. MELLOTT

  21. Deja Vue all over again! by I_Voter · · Score: 2, Informative
    Adam Smith from the Wealth of Nations published in 1776

    Consumption is the sole end and purpose of all production; and the interest of the producer ought to be attended to only so far as it may be necessary for promoting that of the consumer. The maxim is so perfectly self evident that it would be absurd to attempt to prove it. But in the mercantile system the interest of the consumer is almost constantly sacrificed to that of the producer; and it seems to consider production, and not consumption, as the ultimate end and object of all industry and commerce.

    ......... snip ......

    It cannot be very difficult to determine who have been the contrivers of this whole mercantile system; not the consumers, we may believe, whose interest has been entirely neglected; but the producers, whose interest has been so carefully attended to; and among this latter class our merchants and manufacturers have been by far the principal architects.

    (Book_Four*Chapter_VIII*Conclusion_of_the_Mercantile_System)