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HD Recorder Can Use Standard DVDs
Stonent1 writes "Early next month Panasonic is going to release a DVD recorder that can store HD content on standard DVDs. The new device is expected to be a boon for the backer of the Blu-ray format; Blu-ray uses discs several times more expensive than standard DVD media. While the DVD discs won't have the capacity of a Blu-ray disc, the content will be of similar visual quality. 'The company said it will start selling three models of new DVD recorders capable of recording full HD programs on conventional DVD discs on November 1. The high-end model with a 500-gigabyte hard disk drive is likely to sell for 130,000 yen, Matsushita said.'" Update: 10/02 16:18 GMT by Z : Rewritten to clarify.
....if the machine itself is so expensive?
There is no hardware/physical cost justification for a price that high.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
I was under the impression that standard DVDs use a different type of laser for reading and recording than blu ray.
So is this some type of hybrid/dual laser device? Or is it a blu ray that uses the blue laser to record on conventional DVDs? Or what exactly?
I only go to buffets for the unlimited soft serve.
that I didn't just read "18 hours of HD content on a standard dual layer DVD" Or did I?
I'm guessing that this player just writes MPEG4 files to a DVD, which it can then play back. Why do we even need Blu-Ray. Couldn't a much cheaper device be made with no blu-ray capabilities that just records the HD Content straight to MPEG4 on DVD? That would actually big a major blow to both HDDVD and BluRay.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
The hell with Blu-Ray. That format has even more onerous DRM than HD DVD. If I buy into the HD technology at all (I probably will not until DRM is busted), then it would be HD DVD, not Blu-Ray.
The Evil of Two Lessers, in my opinion.
So HD content can be written on plain DVD's....cool..Now we only need DVD players that can read HD content off DVD's :p
Wincopy
Or maybe that should read "1.8"? Or something entirely different?
.38 hours/GB
Hard drive:
DVD: ~2 hours / GB , approx 1200kbps for "Full HD"?
i forget
We're talking about a digital world, where the medium is far less important than the codec. Blu-Ray, HD-DVD, whatever -- they're all about taking digital information, decoding it, and displaying it.
Since most of our movies are XViD (including our homemade videos), we've generally stopped using disc formats entirely. If I burn the XViD to CD, DVD, or Blu-Ray, it's still the data and codec that counts, not the medium.
Yes, people want to know if a given disc will work with their player, which is one reason why we need medium formats. Yet in a relatively free market, you'd see many multi-medium drives that work with almost anything (see most $49 DVD players today), so I'm guessing the number one reason for making new medium formats is control and DRM.
Is there any market reason for worrying about the medium, rather than the CODEC?
Blu-ray format, which currently uses discs several times more expensive than standard DVD media
It's important to clarify: The article talks about dual layer DVD-s, that's not standard DVD media. I can find single layer recordable DVD over here for less than a dollar. But dual layer recordables are ten times more expensive (for whatever reason).
Now something else: if I got my math right (can't guarantee I did), this means around ~950kbit/s for HD content on a dual layer DVD. They'll definitely need to use MPEG4 (remember: plenty of the current BR and HDDVD titles use MPEG2) to achieve acceptable quality for 18 hours of content. And I don't know if it'll look good still.
Can someone comment how ~950kbit/s fares for HD content. For standard DVD-quality video I use at least 500-600kbps on MPEG4 derivative, so I'm doubtful.
Head to head Blu-ray vs. HD DVD comparison
2+2=5 for very large values of 2.
If I read this correctly it will record on standard dvd media using the blue ray laser.
This may be possible, if the dyes used on standard media will respond to the blue laser.
It would enable the pit size to be smaller and fit more data. I would suspect that it would
also work with single layer media, but hold about half as much content. The disks might not
be playable on a standard blue ray machine (without a firmware update).
Kinda pricey, but if Panasonic can get the cost down this would be a big boost to the blue ray camp.
Note that it should be even easier for the hd-dvd guys to do the same thing.
I'm not trying to sound like an old man on the porch, but who cares about all this cruft? Is Higher Def going to make a bad movie better? Does Lower Def make a good movie worse? I can understand the arguments against Pan and Scan, as you literally are not seeing everything. However, I don't see much of a difference between HD and SD.
Someone told me that after watching things in HD for a while, that they can't watch things in SD without noticing a difference. Is that a good thing? Am I going to be in a bar watching a game and be annoyed because it is in SD? Or over at a friends house and decide not to watch a movie cause they don't got the fancy, schmancy HD set up?
I'll probably like it when I get it, but I just don't see what all the fuss is about.
A single layer DVD-R will hold 15 minutes of 30-40 mbit video and require 4X DVD speed to play.
And you can _still_ see mosquito noise and the MPEG4-style "pasty" colors on Blu-Ray bitrates. (H.264 makes this worse if you use its built-in deblocking.)
So don't you DARE try to tell me I can do HD in some stupid low bitrate on a DVD. The world is too compressed already without making more compromises. [Bad enough you video freaks still use YUV/YCrCb, subsample the color to hell (4:2:0), and use a hugely lossy CODEC on top of it without upping the compression ratio AGAIN.]
If I buy into the HD technology at all (I probably will not until DRM is busted)...
Thus ensuring that the market forces that shape the final outcome won't include you. Brilliant!
Reminds me of all the libertarians who swear they'll refuse to vote for anybody until a true libertarian appears on a major party's ticket, thus pretty much guaranteeing that one never will.
The hardware described in the article is a Blu-Ray player that also records HDTV on DVD media. They could just as easily make an HD-DVD player that does the same thing, I suppose, but the point is that this particular device plays Blu-Ray.
We will call this VCD 2.0
(VCD 1 = DVD quality in CD-ROM)
No trees were killed in the making of this post; however, many trillions of electrons were horribly inconvenienced.
Most HDTV recording options require access to the compressed data. In other words, an ATSC broadcast, unencrypted QAM, or encrypted QAM with a cable card. If this device takes decompressed HDTV (e.g., component inputs) and compresses it in real time, then that's the part of this device that's really interesting.
I see nowhere that states what the data storage capacity is, so I thought I'd check the numbers.
"The one-terabyte hard drive can store up to 381 hours of full HD programs."
So if 1,000 GB is 381 hours, 1 GB is 2.62467191601049868766 hours. Yeah, 2 and a half hours per GB. Hmm... What sounds like that... Oh yeah, xvid.
The trick here is not that they are getting more capacity, it's that they are using a different codec. (Not necessarily xvid, it's just a LOT more compact than mpeg, and made a good example.)
Nothing is actually said of the visual quality at that storage rate, either... It probably has horrid lossy-ness. But it's 1080p! lol Just another marketing trick to fool the unwary.
So even if this device uses a normal laser, it's gonna get 10+ hours per DVD at '1080p'. Using the blue laser is just a gimmick, I'm betting.
"If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
Perhaps this will cause some of our brain-addled technology media "journalists" to start noticing that HD-DVD and Blueray aren't about high definition video (my 2 year old Oppo DVD player does that just fine, apart from the fact no one will sell me a movie in DivX format), nor really about increased storage. Its really about moving to a format with a more functional DRM system.
There is no reason that standard 2 hour movies can't be distributed on a double-layer DVD using a modern compression format -- which are supported in just about every $99 DVD player I see at Circuit City. I don't have a problem with the big media companies moving in this direction - its their content, they can pick their format. I do have a problem with the fact that not a single journalist sees fit to note in their articles that the media companies public rationale for the switch is specious.
+--------------------- You idiot! I told you we were facing the wrong way!
Interesting, is this new device a 3xDVD recorder?
I've got 1920x1080 DivX of Naruto's 3rd movie. Total size - 2.2 gigs for 94 minutes of video and audio, with four different language subtitle choices. All on one DVD.
I'm glad I have a high-def DivX-capable standalone player. Screw these more expensive formats! Hooray compression technology!
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
Take 720k and punch them to fool the PC into thinking they were 1.44.
Not overly reliable to run something over spec, i think ill pass on it for anything i care about.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Osaka-based Matsushita, the world's largest consumer electronics maker, also said it plans to offer the world's first DVD recorders that can store full high-definition programs on conventional DVD discs next month.
Full high-definition (HD) programs come with a resolution of 1,920 x 1,080 pixels.
Matsushita's new Blu-ray recorders, which are able to record up to 18 hours of full HD programs on a dual-layer disc, will go on sale on November 1 in Japan.
Even if one of the more efficient codecs is used can they possibly get that much time in *true* HD resolution on a 9 GB disc? I'm wondering if they screwed up and are actually referring to dual-layer BluRay discs? Maybe? Perhaps? After all, the first paragraph says...
Panasonic maker Matsushita Electric Industrial said it would launch new Blu-ray optical disc recorders in November that allow more hours of full high-definition recording on a single disc than any others available.
I honestly think that they're talking about BR discs and that the article wasn't written clearly. 18 hours of HD on a 9 GB disc? That sounds too good to be true.
The Overrated mod is for reversing inappropriate, positive mods, not for voicing disagreement with a post.
How much HD content can a standard DVD hold?
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No, it can be done. 18 hours of HD on a 9Gb disk, it's just that you're only getting eighteen hours of footage of a uniformly lit white wall, but it is in hi-def!
cheap labor conservatives - they want to keep you hungry enough to be thankful for minimum wage.
According to my opinion that's how it should be. A "file format" is independent from the medium. Why not store mp3's on DAT or MD? :-)
Yes, they are talking about Blu-Ray disks, which is what the bulk of the article is about. It's only further down that it's mentioned (almost in passing) that these players can also write HD content to standard DVDs.
For me this is interesting as there's not currently an affordable way of storing HD content (such as from a HD camcorder via HDMI) in a manner that is easily played back on a HD TV. Other than sticking a PC next to your TV, and that doesn't look too great in the living room.
No doubt these things will cost a small fortune though. What would be nice would be a DVD recorder that can write HD content to a standard DVD, with non of the expensive Blu-Ray stuff. That's surely got to be possible?
Dan
The article states that its Bluray recorder: Matsushita's new Blu-ray recorders, which are able to record up to 18 hours of full HD programs on a dual-layer disc, will go on sale on November 1 in Japan. Then speaks of a Blueray recorder AND a DVD recorder (separate devices): Matsushita, the world's largest maker of plasma TVs, took the wraps off the new Blu-ray and DVD recorders Then speaks of the DVD recorder: The company said it will start selling three models of new DVD recorders capable of recording full HD programs on conventional DVD discs on November 1. The DVD recorder is likely to only be able to record an hour or so of HD content on a standard DVD, and with a lower then standard HD bitrate. perhaps similar to an SVCD on a DVD player.
Right, but when you read the article, the flow of it implies that they're referring to standard-resolution DVDs. They discuss the regular DVD and then make a vague "dual layer" reference only two, short paragraphs later. Without any indication that they're flipping back to the topic of BR discs, it's very easy to read that they're talking about 18 hours on dual-layer, regular DVDs, regardless of how much that makes the brain explode. :)
The Overrated mod is for reversing inappropriate, positive mods, not for voicing disagreement with a post.
I just purchased a 320G byte hard drive for $99. It cost $15 to make it into a usb drive. At that price one could not buy the equivalent storage in dvd-rw disks. The hard drives are more reliable and much faster transferring data. There is no limit on how many times one can erase the hard drive either as I know there is a limit on how many time a dvd-rw can be rewritten. It is much easier to find an indiviudal movie on a hard drive than to look through the 70-80 dvd that it would take for the equivalent storage. It is also much harder to scratch a hard drive platter than it is to scratch or get a dirt mark on a dvd-rw disk.
How is a third format going to be a "boon" for Blu-Ray? Wouldn't it just weaken Blu-Ray by providing a cheaper (media-wise) alternative to Blu-Ray?
The paragraph order could use some improvement, the paragraph with the 18 hours bit should really be higher up, before they start mentioning recording to standard DVDs at all.
Maybe the author didn't fully understand the news when deconstructing the press release. To be honest I get the impression that even tech journos are having a hard time understanding the HD-DVD/Blu-ray formats, so it's no wonder uptake is slow and people are sticking to what they know (i.e. DVD) for now.
Dan
Microsoft earlier tried to push VC-1 on standard DVDs; it would make a lot of sense for consumers to deliver AVC on DVD. It would not do much for producers and studios however, because DVDs are already easy to rip and the format is falling in price. Once "good enough" movie downloads start, the ability to market HD discs will become far harder, just as MP3s killed any real market for SACD/DVD-A.
Origins of the Blu-ray vs HD-DVD War
Blu-ray vs HD-DVD in Next Generation Game Consoles
This isn't a new physical format; they are using a red laser to write to standard DVD-R media (4.7GB single layer, 8.5GB dual layer). But when you write Blu-ray logical format to a DVD-R (aka BD-5, BD-9) you can use HD video.
This is true and a good method as long as I didn't pay for the movies or if my harddrive failed there was a way to redownload all of them, kind of like Xbox Live Marketplace allows.
Can I bum a sig?
This is just a combo Blu-ray/DVD recorder that can record high resolution video to DVD. Nowhere did ANYONE say that HD MOVIES are going to be published on DVD. Go unconfuse yourself and look up DVD recorders, who uses them and why.
I'm am currently experimenting with H.264 and finding that you can put three full length movies (my example being the Matrix trilogy) on a single layer DVD with virtually no loss in quality (there will always be some loss between formats) in the 832x352 resolution used on the DVD (it's not really 720x480 because DVDs use non-square pixels and generally have black bars encoded in).
There is no reason you should not be able to fit a single full length movie in 720p on a dual layer DVD if you are using H.264 to its fullest extent. You might even get away with 1080p if it's a short-ish movie or your willing to accept some very small amount of artifacting.
This is why Blu-ray's capacity advantage on HD-DVD is completely irrelavent. DVD is nearly good enough as it is.
--The universe will not be altered by forum threads, even those which are very wry. --Tycho Brahe (Penny Arcade)
That's all they say about the DVD recorder that can do "full HD programs." I suppose this means it can record a one-hour show without commercials, which would be (worst-case) ~42 minutes on a dual-layer DVD?
According to WikiPedia's comparison of high-def formats, MPEG-2 in HD is 20Mbit/s, roughly twice that of the SD format used on standard DVDs. 4.7gB * 1024MB/GB * 8Mbit/MB / 20Mbit/s = 1925s = 32 minutes, or 58 minutes for a dual-layer DVD, which isn't too far off from the worst-case option above, but still isn't enough for a hour-long show with commercials, which means you can't use this like a HD-quality DVD VCR.
It is also possible to record DVD-quality movies onto CD-R discs. Nobody does it because it would give you twenty minutes of play time, which is maybe enough for a slow-moving (no action, not sitcom) 30 minute TV show episode. Hmm, this looks pretty similar ;-)
Use my userscript to add story images to Slashdot. There's no going back.
The DVD is just a convenient way to distribute the movies. Sure, there are much better ways for you to store and use it at home, but for many people today, discs are still the best way for them to purchase the media. For years, the first thing I have done with any CD I have bought is copy it onto my hard drive and burn a hard copy. Then I put the original away and, hopefully, never touch it again. But if my HD crashes, someone steals my disc, or I scratch it - I pull out the pristine original and copy it again. Of course, copy protection has made that sometimes more difficult these days. Who can blame them, they didn't sell you the right to listen to their music for the rest of your life, on any piece of equipment you please. That would be like Ford selling you a car, and telling you that, as long as you keep maintaining it, you can drive it for the rest of your life - oh, wait, those stupid bastards actually do that, no wonder the American car industry is doing so poorly.
It's not the best solution for everyone, but many people still want to purchase a hard copy of their media. One thing many slash-dotters may not be aware of is, there are still a lot of people who don't own computers, and many don't have high speed internet.
I remember all the talk ten years ago about the "paperless society," but I still see just as much paper as ever. Same thing with plastic discs, just because we have alternatives, that doesn't mean nobody needs the old technology.
BTW, I don't like to order things off the internet, I would prefer to go down to the store, pay cash, hand them a flash drive, and take my movie home on it. But I don't know of any store that allows that.
I'm glad I have a high-def DivX-capable standalone player. Screw these more expensive formats! Hooray compression technology! And it comes down to about 24 MB/minute. And that with only one audio stream.
Soo.. you can fit about 6 Naruto episodes (at best - more like 5) of such quality to that same DVD.
Which, considering it is Naruto is about... one fight? Or less?
Of a series that is 200+ episodes long.
HD video is USELESS without a writeable media significantly larger then a DVD to put it on. And by significantly I mean at least 10 times bigger.
What? I should go back to one movie one disk solution? Fuck that!
I want to have my DivX collection on as few disks as possible. My anime too.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
Didn't Microsoft release several HD content DVD's with full length movies on them? Terminator 2 was one of them I recall. The point is, I bet they will have a way to squeeze 2 hours onto a single dual layer DVD.
www.wildpad.com
How many Britney Spears albums can this format hold? I'm talking about all the bootlegs and rare albums too.
You're right: there isn't. Assuming that you want to be able to carry it, that is.
Everything is subjective.
"Voting With Your Feet" is still a valid concept. After reading the existing discussion, I side with h4rm0ny.
And I disagree that companies pay less attention to "theoretical" money. In fact we have some good examples right now... the RIAA and MPAA. They have pissed off a large percentage of the U.S. populace by going after that "theoretical" money.
The act of NOT buying CDs has brought us to the point that the music industry is now dropping DRM. People stopped buying over-priced CDs, and refused to buy DRMed rips. People voted with their feet... it was not the buying segment that changed the market, it was the non-buying segment.
I believe that not buying DRMed video will have a similar effect.
I burn H264 vids to a DVD. It stands to reason that some hardware device would eventually get around to doing the same. The more important question is where the hell does it record its HD content from.
Looks like the article is incorrect.
Looking at Panasonic's HP (in Japanese) they claim only 1h40m on single layer DVD, and 18h on BD.
Seems more reasonable. This is apparently 4 times what you can with MPEG2.
Also, they are selling two kinds of recorders. Those with BD are of course pricey, but those with double-layer DVD only seem more reasonable: 130000 yen with a 500MB hard disk. Panasonic has never been a cheap brand...
130000 yen = $1126.84 oh yes.. give me those mods!! haha!
I wrote my first program at the age of six, and I still can't work out how this website works.
A fair point, the compression artefacts are fairly noticable on most divx stuff.
However what is more important is if the quality improves at all. If HD compressed onto a DVD gives better quality than a normal DVD I'll take it regardless of wether the quality is worse than on some Blu Ray player I have no intention of buying.
Live rates at 2007.10.03 13:03:21 UTC
130,000.00 JPY
=
1,116.62 USD
Japan Yen United States Dollars
1 JPY = 0.00858938 USD 1 USD = 116.423 JPY
A new device has been developed which can encode 1.07 seconds of full HD quality video onto vinyl! Coming next month: the HD tape drive with the astounding frame rate of .02 FPS!