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Phone Companies Refuse to Give Congress Data on Spy Program

Posted by Zonk on from the would-be-unamerican dept.

JohNNy1+4 writes "Several US telephone communications firms are refusing to answer the questions of a congressional panel about spying on American citizens. The panel is making an inquiry into Bush administration tactics in the years since 2001, but has been stymied by the administration's claim that releasing that information would be illegal. As a result Verizon, AT&T, and Qwest have declined to answer the panel's queries. '"Our company essentially finds itself caught in the middle of an oversight dispute between the Congress and the executive relating to government surveillance activities," AT&T Inc. General Counsel Wayne Watts said in a letter to the House Energy and Commerce Committee that was released today by the panel.'"

19 of 279 comments (clear)

  1. Don't blame me! by Qzukk · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I was just following orders!

    --
    If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    1. Re:Don't blame me! by Tackhead · · Score: 4, Insightful
      > I was just following orders!

      "If AT&T has nothing to hide, it has nothing to fear!"

      What's the over/under on cliches from tired totalitarian regimes for this session of testimony? I've got $10 riding in today's "Totalitarian Bingo" game and I still need a "Papers Please", "(n, canonically Five)-Year Plan" and a "Little (colored, canonically Red) Book" to win.

    2. Re:Don't blame me! by Volante3192 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Or not comply and possible be sued by the government, loose contracts

      I don't quite see how they could be sued by the government. It's one thing if the gov't had the proper warrants, but in this case it's just giving in. Legally, they'd be in the right to not comply.

      As far as losing contracts...well...who ELSE would the government go to? It's not like a NASA contract and they have between Boeing and Lockheed-Martin. They can't choose between phone providers. "Well, gee, AT&T won't let us tap their lines. But they own the lines. Oh well, we're boned."

    3. Re:Don't blame me! by quixote9 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Honestly. Verizon even said that they never checked the legality. I'm sure they'd have the same attitude if I spied on my sister because "my brother-in-law made me do it."

      Idiots.

      Venal idiots.

      Venal, cowardly, criminal idiots.

  2. I hate to say it, but they're right. by DanielJosphXhan · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If a congressional panel doesn't legally have jurisdiction on a matter like this, then companies can't be expected to legally comply. If Congress wants oversight -- and why shouldn't it have this oversight? -- they should legislate it as such. They have the power to legislate, and they should use it.

    --
    [ think ]
    1. Re:I hate to say it, but they're right. by IgnoramusMaximus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      and why shouldn't it have this oversight?

      That is because it is their role. In order to legislate, they have to be able to determine the facts to adjust the legislation accordingly. That is why they have very broad investigative powers. Also it is the role of Congress to oversee the Executive, and if necessary investigate it and even remove the President, if the investigation warrants it. Note that the Constitution provides no means for the Executive to remove Congress.

    2. Re:I hate to say it, but they're right. by IgnoramusMaximus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      AFAIK, Congress may not be able to legally legislate oversight into this program as doing so would violate national security ...

      Oh boy. It is up to the Legislative branch to determine what does, and what does not, "violate national security". Not anyone else. They, according to the Constitution, set all the rules. Not the Executive, not the Judicial, not the military or intelligence agencies. No one else. Legislative branch is the only one with these powers.

      On top of which, if Congress just decided to write themselves into an oversight role ...

      Their oversight role is one of the key elements of the Constitution. They cannot "write themselves" in because that is their core function, they cannot "write themselves" out because that would require a Constitutional Ammendment.

    3. Re:I hate to say it, but they're right. by CodeBuster · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And it would mean the end of the US as a Republic and an official beginning of the Empire.

      Which is precisely what happened to Ancient Rome. The Republic of Rome was effectively dead by the time Julius Caesar, Pompey, and Crassus had fully consolidated their positions, but for the following several hundred years most Roman citizens politely pretended otherwise. I am not suggesting that this will happen to us, but it is wise to learn the lessons of history.

  3. What oversight dispute? by IgnoramusMaximus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Isn't the US Constitution clear on the point of oversight, giving Congress the ability to investigate and even remove the president, but not the other way around?

    Or is the US truly near its nadir and soon "el Presidente" will be running everything, unopposed.

  4. How the...? by twifosp · · Score: 4, Insightful
    It's too bad these Reps won't have the balls to send subpoenaes to the CEO's of these companies, drag them in front of congress, and find them in contempt of congress for refusing to comply.

    The American government no longer matters. Welcome back to the Fuedal ages everyone! CEO's and boards are the land owners, lawyers are the knights. Get back to work you serfs.

    1. Re:How the...? by TheCarp · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well I mean... yah.

      Have you ever looked at the term "Wage Slave" and thought of how apt it really is?

      I mean, sure, you can do what you want and say what you want. However, you like to eat don't you? Well, unless you raise and slaughter your own, that takes money. Want money? Well I guess you could start your own small buisness and drum up clients among your fellow free people... but realistically, for most, it means being someones wage slave.

      Wage slave show up at 8 am. Wage slave, wear clothes according to this policy.

      All the money is in the hands of the upper class, and the lower classes are lucky to slurp up what they can. Wages are balanced against social order, pay people just enough to be too comfortable to revolt.... have enough wage slaves under you, and you get the ear of congress. Thats not enough? Get together with a bunh of other upperclassmen and collectively get the congresscritters ear (its cleaner that way).

      Overall mass media is capable of keeping things too confusing and spreads the idea that its all rigged and your vote doesn't matter anyway. Put up two nearly identical puppets who are both wholly owned subsidieries of some federation of corperations.

      Make the people feel they are getting what they deserve because nobody is willing to stand up en mass, all while making issues too confusing and convoluted for anyone to get such a mass to stand up in the first place. Toss in a few wedge issues to get people a bit worked up over something that doesn't actually matter, to blow off the steam. And voi la.... you have a system of wage slavery that lets everyone pat themselves on the back for how free we are.

      Free....to do as we are told.

      -Steve

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
  5. In other words... by sweatyboatman · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Our lawyers are pretty sure we broke the law and complied with an illegal order. But they're also pretty sure that Congress doesn't have the balls to confront the White House about this. So, complain all you want, but we'll being skiing in hell before we testify before Congress about this.

    --
    It breaks my pluginses, my precious!
  6. Scumbags by Experiment+626 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Oh sure, now they stand up to a request from the government and refuse to fulfill it on the grounds that it would be "illegal". Maybe they should have given that response to the NSA instead of saving it for Congress.

    1. Re:Scumbags by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Maybe they realize that they are in too deep to come clean and they must protect the party line at all costs.

  7. Contempt of congress? by Borealis · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Arrest their CEOs for contempt. When the VPs fail to provide the data, arrest them too. Work on down the line.

    --
    Unbreakable toys can be used to break other toys.
  8. Even Easier by TheCarp · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Very simple....

    Seems to me that if the law doesn't allow congress to pull their corperate charter for this, then the law needs to be fixed.

    Loss of limited liability would either sink them or change their tune right quick.

    -Steve

    --
    "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
  9. What would TJ say? by Sloppy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"

    --
    As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
  10. Tells a lot about these companies by nickmalthus · · Score: 3, Insightful

    That they ignored the request of the Congress (the will of the people) and instead chose to hide behind the president and so called state secrets. Shame on them and their disrespect for our Republic. They apparently believe that the president will protect them from punishment for their criminal acts. Congress establishes the laws in this country and as representatives of the American people they have every right to make sure the laws are carried out as intended. What is it that the executive branch and these companies are up to that they are so scared of revealing to Congress? According to our president only the terrorists have something to hide from the government so by extension does hiding information from Congress make the president and these companies terrorists?

    --
    If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be-T J
  11. Big surprise by smashp · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The Phone Companies are letting the government use their equipment to spy on Americans. In Return they mega corporations will get support from certain members of congress and the executive for supposed "Pro Business" regulations. These "regulations" will cement these corporations and give them government supported monopolies and allow the Telecoms to govern and regulate themselves. In Essence, they have entered into an unholy alliance with the US government. Greed is enabling, Power is corupting. You are witnessing the Rise of Pure Fascism in the US.