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Internet Archive Challenges Google

Posted by CmdrTaco on from the pistols-at-dawn dept.

richards1052 writes "The Internet Archive, whose main claim to fame is the Wayback Machine, designed to archive the internet's web history, has created a new project: the Open Content Alliance. It's purpose is to open the nation's library collections to universal web search. A number of major library systems, including the Boston Public Library and Smithsonian, have refused to sign up with competing ventures by Microsoft and Google because they do not provide for universal access to digitized books. These commercial ventures prohibit books being accessed by competing search engines. So far, 80 libraries and research institutions have signed on with Open Content Alliance. They must pay for the scanning of their books while Google and Microsoft offset that cost for their participating institutions."

27 of 115 comments (clear)

  1. Society lost by packetmon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I believe I've commented on something like this before. Might be a good idea to archive the books lest somewhere in the future we re-live something like the Spanish Inquisition where important literature was lost. Its also making this society a bunch of couch potatoes. What ever happened to walking into a quiet library, the smell of stale books, looking around at people. Its slowly being replaced by reading books online and hitting ctrl-w to close annoying popups while you read. Currently I have about 30+ Cisco (CCIE/NP/IP/etc) books and each come with their PDF's. At first I thought, neat I can read them on my laptop... Nowadays I find its easy to just open the book, nothing like butchering my books up with highlighters... This world is coming to one where companies will be fighting to keep us locked in our houses. Call me a troll, just speculation

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    Infiltrated dot Net
    1. Re:Society lost by CRCulver · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I enjoy very much sitting in a university library with piles of books around me to work through. However, as someone who spends most of the year traveling, usually lugging around a bag or two of hardbound specialist literature in addition to an already heavy backpack, the more I can put on my notebook the better. PDFs don't weigh anything.

    2. Re:Society lost by luder · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What ever happened to walking into a quiet library, the smell of stale books, looking around at people. Its slowly being replaced by reading books online and hitting ctrl-w to close annoying popups while you read.
      Funny, I bet someone said the same thing when the average person began to have enough purchasing power to buy individual copies of books...
    3. Re:Society lost by RsG · · Score: 4, Funny

      Might be a good idea to archive the books lest somewhere in the future we re-live something like the Spanish Inquisition where important literature was lost.
      Oh really, does that seem likely?

      I don't expect the Spanish Inquisition...
      --
      Erotic is when you use a feather. Exotic is when you use the whole chicken.
    4. Re:Society lost by absorbr · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But there is advantage in being able to search those technical manuals. Leave the couch potato business to me, there's already enough reason (health) to get outside, soak up sun, and exercise.

    5. Re:Society lost by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 4, Funny

      PDFs don't weigh anything.

      Not true, ones have slightly more mass than zeros, so they weight a tad more than zeroing out that section of your drive!

      Note, my source is Dilbert. But it was right about smaller font sizes leading to smaller .doc sizes as well.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    6. Re:Society lost by beadfulthings · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I don't think you're a troll, and until recently I would have agreed with every point in your post. Now I'm not so sure. Anything that preserves the written word from future loss, and makes books and literature available to more people, is a good thing. Freeing this activity from commercial restraints is a good idea; somehow the commercial route would make me think my choices might be somehow limited by what the commercial software "wanted" to show me.

      It's the quiet library...dusty books part that has me a bit concerned at the moment. My city recently built a brand-new neighborhood "anchor" library within striking distance of my house. That eliminated the need for a tedious drive or bus ride downtown to the main library, the expensive necessity of finding scarce parking, and the tyranny of downtown "business hours." The branch is convenient, has good parking, and is open for people who have to work during the daytime. It's bright and attractive. Endowed with an outdoor "reading garden" for good weather, it will shortly boast an indoor coffee area. It has banks of computers to be allocated to either youngsters or adults, a pretty good periodicals section, and a pretty good reference section. It also manages to cater to our increasing Hispanic population. The kids' section, which takes up half of the main floor, appears to be excellent. There's a huge section of fairly current DVD films. Tables (and to my surprise) comfortable easy chairs are invitingly scattered throughout.

      I guess the problem is that with all the beautiful amenities, there's actually not much room for books. To be fair, they are just starting out, and their holdings will certainly increase. I'm just not sure where they will locate a collection that's much larger. I would divide my reading into "work-related," "feel like I ought to read it," and "just for pleasure." It's not easy to find new or interesting titles in any of those areas. They're trying, but there's just not enough space.

      I've resolved that, to an extent, with a nifty little Mac utility called "Library Books." By entering my online access information, plus the library's catalog system (iBistro/Sirsi), I suddenly have complete, convenient access to the entire city and state library system. I can browse, search, and reserve. I could do all of that simply by going to the library's main Website and logging in, but the utility does me little favors like alerting me to the arrival of reserved titles and putting a big, red star up on days when books are due. It's a convenience that makes online browsing just a bit easier.

      I've thrown myself into the new anchor library, in tandem with the simplified online access of the Library Books utility. I've become an evangelist, of sorts, for requesting and reserving books. It's amazing the number of people who don't know you can do that. The sheer square footage required to hold a large collection isn't feasible for neighborhood libraries, and I feel as though this sort of system gives one the best of both worlds. No yellow markers, though . . .

      --
      "Here's what's happening. You're starting to drive like your Dad..." - Red Green
    7. Re:Society lost by Metaphorically · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I don't have to do this myself but I have heard about this problem (and wrote a little about it). Your school pays publishers for access to journals and you can't necessarily get to them from home. There is a plugin for Firefox called LibX that makes it easier to search what your school's library has available. It has to be customized somehow to make it work with the school's system. The University of Windsor has customized LibX as Foxy Leddy (Leddy is the school library). Maybe your school has something similar.

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      more of the same on Twitter.
    8. Re:Society lost by Steauengeglase · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why not go to the library?

      Easy, because many public libraries are becoming nothing more than places where people go to check their e-mail. Of course a nice university library is something completely different, but the small town public library is pretty much giving up on those bulky paper things. Why buy new books when you can offer poor people a place to get on-line (and get a bunch of grants)?

      My local library only buys 10% of the books that it bought 8 years ago.

    9. Re:Society lost by hasbeard · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It seems to me that in today's climate, religious conservatives (You would probably consider me one) are also threatened with censorship. Some Christian leaders have pointed out the possibility that "hate speech" laws could be utilized to limit the ability of Christians to free practice their faith and voice their beliefs about homosexuality and other matters. It isn't that difficult to posit a future in which the Bible could be banned as "hate speech" and Christians jailed, denied employment, or are otherwise discriminated against because of their beliefs. Secular, totalitarian states have also banned and burned books. There are Christians enduring persecution in many places in the world even as I type this. And if you want to ask someone about government censorship, you may want to talk to the Chinese people where Christians and others are regularly censored by their non-religious government.

    10. Re:Society lost by Achromatic1978 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Birth control leads to the objectification of women

      Show me this study, I'm curious. Or was it just one thrown in there that seemed like it might fit, and just so happens to further the 'birth control is evil' agenda?

    11. Re:Society lost by triffid_98 · · Score: 3, Insightful
      It's not just the right you need be concerned with, the left is equally likely to purge "inappropriate content", they just make up different reasons for it. It espouses racism (Huckleberry Finn), it's pornographic (The Scarlet Letter), it's dangerous (The Golden Book of Chemistry Experiments). Big brother or nanny government, it all boils down to the same thing. 2008 is coming people, can we please can all of these assholes before I end up having to describe this as double plus good?

      (read Christian religious right) have "won" and science as it now stands is banned. Books could easily be "misplaced" by these folks, and the library of congress purged of "inappropriate content".
    12. Re:Society lost by gateur · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Right wing conservatives who think evolution is a fraud and want to use the Supreme Court to force their personal beliefs upon the rest of America are not "Christians". There is nothing "Christian" about their beliefs. They are nothing more than a gang of hate mongers that use a professed faith in Christianity for political purposes and fund raising.

  2. Project Gutenberg... by Sherloqq · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ... but on a much larger scale?

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    Have EVDO, will travel.
    1. Re:Project Gutenberg... by SnarfQuest · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Why not hear it from several authors, from one publisher:

      http://www.baen.com/library/

      Several authors use older releases as bait to tempt you to buy more recent books.

      Project Gutenberg is concerned mostly with old, out of copyright books, author usually long dead. Many of these books would be unavailable otherwise.

      --
      Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
    2. Re:Project Gutenberg... by eldepeche · · Score: 2, Funny

      Maybe they'll move toward an ad-supported revenue model. Did you know Harry Potter wears Reeboks?

  3. A Better Link by value_added · · Score: 4, Informative

    The Libraries Shun Deals to Place Books on Web story in The New York Times covers the subject fairly well.

  4. Scan My Books by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I buy a lot of books. I've got probably 10,000 or so. I wish I could search through them. Some for reference, sometimes because I read something that sounds familiar that I want to find where I first read it. I'd also like to read them on my PC sometimes, or even on my phone like when I'm waiting for a while somewhere. And I'd like to copy/paste short passages from them into messages I send on the Internet.

    If this project is really "open", can I have my own libarary scanned? How much does it cost? I own the rights to copy my own books for my own personal use. Does something make these other "official" libraries eligible to use their full rights to their content in a way that I cannot?

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    make install -not war

    1. Re:Scan My Books by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 3, Funny

      Yeah, except it's already bad enough that Google has a log of every Web search I make. I don't need them having a log of every book I've read. They'd have a map of my mind. Next they'd require I upload my genome as the "encryption key". Then I'd face an army of imprinted clones, each backed by Google's budget.

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      make install -not war

  5. Wondering... by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 2, Insightful

    How many of these libraries think of Open Source and software platform choice? How many of them make sure their web sites are platform agnostic, equally accessible from all browsers? These people are willing to stand up and are willing to pay more to preserve their liberty. Hats off to them. But does this stand also extends to not having their documents locked down in a proprietary format encumbered with licenses and restrictions? I would very much like such ideas, being independent of vendors, would extend to Corporate America too.

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    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
  6. Re:Way to go! by kebes · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The free exchange of ideas (not entertainment for those of you who download your entire music libraries from Kazaa) will promote progress across the board.
    It's interesting that you draw such a sharp difference between information and entertainment. I agree that there are differences between content intended to transfer knowledge, and content intended to amuse... but certainly there are strong similarities between the two.

    In particular, if you accept that free exchange of ideas will promote intellectual progress, then is it not also reasonable to suggest that free exchange of artistic content will promote cultural progress? This is the central notion that Lawrence Lessig advocates: that overly restricting the distribution, reuse, and remixing of art and entertainment will inherently stifle culture. (Note that Lessig does not advocate wanton infringement nor abolition of copyright: merely a 'sane' balance between the rights of content creators and the rights of content users.)

    With respect to this current initiative, it would appear that they intend to scan and index books that are oriented towards information, as well as those oriented towards entertainment. In my opinion, this is a good thing. There is much that people can learn and grow by having easier access to ideas, where "ideas" means both informational sources, as well as artistic sources.
  7. Relevant Link by Chapter80 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    In case you missed this discussion back on October 2, Carnegie Mellon has a service which helps to better digitize these books. It's called Recaptcha, and it uses otherwise wasted human cycles to convert text that was hard for computers to OCR.

  8. False Dichotomy? by internic · · Score: 4, Interesting

    There's a story about this in The New York Times this morning (free reg required). It begins:

    Several major research libraries have rebuffed offers from Google and Microsoft to scan their books into computer databases, saying they are put off by restrictions these companies want to place on the new digital collections.

    The research libraries, including a large consortium in the Boston area, are instead signing on with the Open Content Alliance, a nonprofit effort aimed at making their materials broadly available.

    The opposition between the Open Content Alliance and Google may not be as much as it seems at first glance. From the NYT article:

    Adam Smith, project management director of Google Book Search, noted that the company's deals with libraries were not exclusive. "We're excited that the O.C.A. has signed more libraries, and we hope they sign many more," Mr. Smith said.

    It looks like Google will digitize the collection for free in exchange for exclusive rights to offering searches of the digital data, but the libraries don't give up rights to have someone else digitize the stuff again and do with it as they see fit. So they can go with Google for now if they want and the O.C.A. later as they have the resources. This seems pretty reasonable to me. I don't know what the deal Microsoft is offering looks like, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's much more restrictive.

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    "You call it a new way of thinking; I call it regression to ignorance!" -- Operation Ivy
  9. Nobody... by jefu · · Score: 4, Funny

    Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.....

    (Can't believe I'm the first one to respond with that. Of course by now I'm probably not. )

  10. Nobody... by benhocking · · Score: 2, Funny

    Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

    (I couldn't bear to leave you hanging.)

    --
    Ben Hocking
    Need a professional organizer?
  11. Digital has its advantages by JCSoRocks · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I agree that a nice, hard bound book is, at the moment, more pleasant to read. However, technologies such as e-Ink and others that allow you to read something digitally without the eye-strain of using a back lit monitor are catching on. I think a few factors make digital copies more advantageous - cost of duplication, storage, protection from damage, searchability.

    Storage: I just moved, and I moved three bookcases full of books. That sucked. If those were all digital, I'd have hauled my computer from A to B and brought all of my books with me. In addition, I moved to a smaller house. Trying to find a place for my three bookcases of books has been impossible.

    Cost of duplication: With digital copies, books can be distributed without the overhead costs of printing and shipping.

    Protection from damage: Many of the books housed in libraries, particularly places like the Smithsonian, are no longer in print. If it's destroyed, regardless of whether it's an accident or a malicious act, it's gone. The library may be able to get another copy from a benevolent individual or the last copy may have just been destroyed. With a digital copy, you can make back-ups of your back-ups... safeguarding the content of that book.

    Searchability: This is my favorite... Who hasn't spent 30 minutes skimming a book trying to find THAT ONE PAGE!? It drives me nuts. Searching would make books sooo much more convenient.

    --
    You are using English. Please learn the difference between loose and lose; they're, there, and their; your and you're.
  12. It isn't that difficult... by benhocking · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It isn't that difficult to posit a future in which the Bible could be banned as "hate speech" and Christians jailed, denied employment, or are otherwise discriminated against because of their beliefs.

    Yeah, conspiracy theories are usually quite easy to posit. That doesn't mean they have a bit of merit. Get over yourself—you're the majority, and you're not being persecuted in this country. (Yes, there are Christians being persecuted in countries where they're not the majority, and it is genuinely a travesty. Don't you dare try to use their suffering to perpetuate your persecution complex in this country.) That future you posit is actually less likely than Bush masterminding 9/11 (which he didn't).

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    Ben Hocking
    Need a professional organizer?