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Congressman Tells Comcast, Hands Off BitTorrent

An anonymous reader writes "Just a few months back, the Net Neutrality debate was all but dead. Luckily for fans of a free Internet, the telcos are their own worst enemies. Recent stories involving Verizon Wireless blocking pro-choice groups, AT&T censoring Pearl Jam's anti-war comments from a streaming concert, and most recently, Comcast finally admitting to using anti-BitTorrent filters. The Net Neutrality debate would appear to be alive and kicking, with Congressman Rick Boucher (D-VA) being the first politician to make a public statement sharply criticizing Comcast's actions."

38 of 304 comments (clear)

  1. Comcast Tesll Congressman: We Own Your Colleagues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Comcast Tesll Congressman: We Own Your Colleagues

    Comcast has politely reminded this wayward congressman that in America laws are paid for by bribes. Comcast then offered the congressman a "campaign contribution", silencing his dissent. The system works.

  2. Great start by martin_henry · · Score: 5, Funny

    As a Comcast customer in Virginia, I am glad that Congressman Boucher is taking a stand for net neutrality. Mostly because I need to get my share ratio back up.

    --
    www.purevolume.com/martyd
    1. Re:Great start by TheRequiem13 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Hopefully not on OiNK. :/

      --
      What?
    2. Re:Great start by spottedkangaroo · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Ubuntu needs to get bit torrent (or any other distributed p2p sharing actually) for things like the update manager and apt-get . It may already do it, I don't really know for sure, but I doubt it. Personally I'd throw 500KB/s at it if it were possible to do so. I sit on a bunch of distro .isos at that rate from work and my boss is cool with it. Anyway, when I excitedly upgraded ubuntu to 7.10 on my laptop last friday, it took some 6 hours to download everything and it seemed a little silly since there's plenty of people like me that would willingly share some spare upstream.

      --
      Imagine if you weren't allowed to use roads because a bus company complained about your driving 3 times. --skunkpussy
    3. Re:Great start by compro01 · · Score: 4, Informative

      you can get debtorrent for that i believe.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
  3. Comcast seems to be fast by Technician · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Am I the first to notice that Comcast may have removed the filter? Last night I started the Ubuntu Gutsy Gibbon DVD download. I thought it would be done this morning, but I noticed the network switch still blinking like crazy. I logged in and checked the status. The download is done. I checked the upload status...

    1286 K uploaded at a rate of 20KB/s. This is the first time in weeks I have seen upload speeds better than 0.0 KB/s and a transfered size larger than 0.1 KB. Since I am finally able to help spread Ubuntu, I'll let it run all day. Maybe I'll be able to upload more than I download for a change. Seeing any upload traffic after a completed download is highly unusual on Comcast lately.

    --
    The truth shall set you free!
    1. Re:Comcast seems to be fast by Conspiracy_Of_Doves · · Score: 4, Funny

      Yes, we'll all pretend that's what you were really downloading. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge, say no more.

    2. Re:Comcast seems to be fast by guaigean · · Score: 3, Funny

      *Whoooosh*

      --
      Microsoft Sucks, F/OSS Rocks. I get mod points now right?
    3. Re:Comcast seems to be fast by budgenator · · Score: 4, Funny

      I'm a comcast customer and have never used bittorrent until comcast started this BS; now I running BT out of spite.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    4. Re:Comcast seems to be fast by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 3, Funny

      Cut and paste... /tmp/gutsy-wrestling-babes-dvd-i386.iso.torrent /home/-------/Ubuntu/gutsy-dvd-i386.iso
      4336.0 of 4336.0 MB at 63.49 KB/s
      16 hours, 59 minutes, and 51 seconds

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
  4. Sigh by bucky0 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Guys, if we want to win the argument on Net Neutrality, we can't keep confusing QOS with NN. If they want to indescriminantly block bittorrent, that's QOS. Saying that QOS runs afoul of NN means that later Comcast can say, "Look, if you enforce net neutrality, we won't be able to do QOS on our networks which means that internet tv will be bogged down"

    NN is preferential shaping based on the source of the data. QOS is preferential shaping based on the type of data.

    --

    -Bucky
    1. Re:Sigh by mikael_j · · Score: 4, Informative

      Completely blocking an entire protocol isn't QoS, Qos is about giving priority to certain types of traffic that need lower latency or more bandwidth, an example would be VoIP which needs low latency to not become useless.

      What Comcast has been doing is outright blocking an entire protocol, sort of like how some ISPs block their users' ability to use SMTP, mostly outbound but in some cases inbound as well. The difference being that there is a good reason to block outbound SMTP, it may be a PITA for those trying to run their own mail server but at least the reason isn't so much direct greed as it is to protect the network at large from zombie machines trying to spam the rest of the net...

      /Mikael

      --
      Greylisting is to SMTP as NAT is to IPv4
    2. Re:Sigh by Paradigm_Complex · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There's definately some blurring between the two. There's a problem if I payed for my internets and don't use internet TV or phone or the like, so my bandwidth is shot because my interests are considered less important. If Internet TV or Internet Phone or whatnot require X amount of bandwidth, have people pay for that much bandwidth, don't suck it out from other paying customers. QOS is a subset of NN - so yes, QOS will take a blow if NN is enforced. As it should be. My bits are just as important as the next guy.

      --
      "A witty saying proves nothing." - Voltaire
    3. Re:Sigh by compro01 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      fine if they re-prioritise (VOIP/games before bitrorrent/FTP) and traffic shape (websites/IPTV/etc. work normal, BT runs slower) stuff when necessary (peak hours), but when they're sabotaging a protocol all the time for no good reason, that ticks me off and shouldn't be allowed.

      my personal idea of NN is "don't shape by origin/destination ever, shape by traffic only when absolutely necessary".

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    4. Re:Sigh by Alistar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you are fine with them blocking SMTP to protect their network from zombie machines running large, why is it wrong for them to block bitTorrent to prevent their network from grinding to a halt. (Arguements of "unlimited" internet aside)

      Both have legitimate and devious uses.

    5. Re:Sigh by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Actually, they're not blocking an entire protocol.

      They're actively resetting ANY TCP connection that involves uploading significant amounts of data for more than a few seconds.

      There have been numerous reports of this killing Lotus Domino connections too, and I wouldn't be surprised if I found lots of complaints on the SmugMug forums about people being unable to upload pictures if they were on Comcast. (Same traffic patterns - lots of upload for a while.)

      Still, anything that involves resetting/blocking connections is not QoS. I don't think people would care if BT were the "bottom of the barrel" and was superseded by any other traffic type - it would still be wicked fast at 3 AM. The problem here is that Comcast is actively killing connections regardless of what the actual status of the rest of the network is, instead of taking advantage of TCP's built in congestion control mechanisms to slow things down.

      I worry that if done wrong, legislation will be passed that even forbids QoS, which will make things really bad for both users and ISPs. The legislation would have to have wording that QoS is OK as long as the "bottom of the barrel" protocols are able to use full bandwidth when no one else is using the network.

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    6. Re:Sigh by bkr1_2k · · Score: 5, Funny

      "My bits are just as important as the next guy."

      Yes but your bits aren't as large as the next guy's so you'll have to compensate with a cool car.

      --
      "Growing old is inevitable; growing up is optional."
    7. Re:Sigh by dgatwood · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The ironic thing is that this is more likely to hurt people who download files by FTP or HTTP than BitTorrent. It should not be hard at all to tune BitTorrent use a larger number of shorter-lived connections. Of course, doing so would basically bring down Comcast's network pretty hard, as it would increase the overhead of BitTorrent traffic fairly dramatically.... I wonder if they've thought about what they are likely to create by doing this....

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    8. Re:Sigh by Dash+Hash · · Score: 5, Interesting

      If Comcast were only throttling BitTorrent traffic, I would not have so much an issue with it (so long as the throttled speeds were decent enough to serve ISOs and WoW updates).

      Unfortunately, it is not about throttling, it is about killing entirely. When every attempt to connect is killed, you are not delaying traffic, you are stopping it entirely. But that is only one issue on the table with Comcast and its anti-BitTorrent activities, and quite frankly, it is a minor issue compared to the other.

      More important to me, and hopefully to everybody else, is that Comcast is killing BitTorrent traffic by spoofing the users, and not always its own users. They are pretending to be their customers and the people they connect with, whether or not the people they are connected with are Comcast customers, to send the reset packets.

      I don't know about you, but quite frankly, having /any/ company masquerade as its users is frightening.
      With a massive company such as Comcast faking its identity, it is out-and-out mortifying.

      Throttling would be one thing. Killing by falsifying oneself as the customers they represent is another entirely.

      --
      Calling a sword by a pretty name is no more than adding perfume to poison.
    9. Re:Sigh by Burz · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Pardon me, but killing bittorrent transfers by falsifying user-protocol commands is not "prioritizing". FWIW, Comcast does indeed throttle upstream traffic for FTP, SSL and others well below their advertised speeds... but the stink isn't even about that, it's about a very high level of interference in user-generated content.

    10. Re:Sigh by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I fully agree. There are plenty of workaround approaches to Comcast's brain-deadedness, many of which will result in increased pain for Comcast in the long run.

      For example, the easiest workaround would be to use a custom transport mechanism layered over UDP which includes authentication for connection management (i.e. there's no way to spoof the equivalent of a TCP RST.) The problem is that a LOT of research has gone into TCP congestion control algorithms in the past two decades, and the initial implementation of any custom congestion control scheme will likely be FAR less "fair" than TCP is.

      Unfortunately, most current secure transport schemes were only designed to protect data from eavesdropping, not to protect against denial of service attacks against the connection. For example, SSL and TLS both need to be layered above a reliable transport layer (usually TCP), and it is TCP itself that Comcast is attacking.

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
  5. Too late for Comcast by Space+cowboy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    At least, from my perspective. I'm not a huge user of P2P, my ire is more directed at the violation of the principles that founded this 'internets' thing. If we let company-interests direct the future development of the internet, we may as well give up now.

    What *did* annoy me, after the decision was taken, was that my difficulties with ichat over the last few months seem to be similarly down to Comcast policies.

    I use iChat a lot to keep in touch with my family (all of whom have Macs, and 4-way video-conferencing can be pretty cool). There's several thousand miles between us, so this is one of the few ways we can actually see each other without major travel.

    Until a few months ago, it all worked great. Now, I get less than a minute of great picture, and then everything breaks up. I was putting it down to transatlantic bandwidth issues, but then I tried it from work, and (lo and behold) had no problems whatsoever.

    I pay (not for long, now though, the T1 arrives in 2 weeks) for the most bandwidth Comcast offer, and I cannot believe I average even 1% of that bandwidth. To have them limit me when I *do* want to use it, as a deliberate *general* policy of theirs, is infuriating. All I can do is cancel the service, and hope others do too. Eventually, hopefully, they'll get the message. Not everyone can cancel due to the monopoly they hold in some areas, but perhaps enough can to make a difference.

    Now a T1 used to be a lot of bandwidth, but it's not so much any more (1.5Mbit/sec is pretty poor by advertised-bandwidth standards). I'm willing to trade off the small time-periods I actually can use that advertised bandwidth for the reliability of always having the smaller amount - it may not work for everyone, but it works for me :)

    And so, Comcast lose another ~$200/month. Hopefully part of a trend, because won't anyone think of the network ? [grin]

    Simon.

    --
    Physicists get Hadrons!
    1. Re:Too late for Comcast by murrdpirate · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The monopoly is what irritates me. If someone set up their own ISP without the government, I think they're free to do whatever they want with it. But if we're giving them a monopoly, I think we have some say in the service.

    2. Re:Too late for Comcast by Seumas · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The problem is that broadband providers really do have a monopoly. In any given area, you have dial-up (56k), a single cable (8mbps) provider or a single DSL (768kbps to 7mbps) providers. While every city varies, you can usually get dial-up in 100% of the area, cable in perhaps 70% of the area . . . but DSL in only a small percentage of the area. At least if you want speeds that are even remotely comparable. If you don't live down the street from the local CO, you are going to get speeds that are difficult to tolerate. And of course, phone companies have bandwidth and usage concerns, too. They aren't selling you a dedicated service anymore than Comcast or Cox or Shaw is.

      What really annoys me is that my tax dollars are used to provide these "utilities" with a limited sanctioned monopoly for the supposed public good, yet they don't offer services that address the whole public. If you really only intend your $65/mo service to be for grandmothers who use the account for email and checking up on their local church and the occasional amazon service, then offer a more expensive account for people who want heavy use and connect to work via VPN, back stuff up to remote servers, connect to colo hosted systems, use bit-torrent, watch lots of streaming videos, etc.

      And for people who want to know "how in the hell do you use so much bandwidth?! 30gb should be more than enough!". Well, just downloading a few popular podcasts will do it. Especially now that they're HD quality. Diggnation, Crankygeeks, DL.TV, Totally Rad Show and a couple others downloaded every week at an average of almost 500mb each comes out to about 12gb per month right there. And that's if you aren't acquiring them via bit torrent where you'd have some overhead as well as at least 6gb to 12gb in upward bandwidth. So right there, you're at 24gb. Just to keep up with half a dozen weekly podcasts.

      Throw in a couple people at your address listening to a lot of streaming radio. Watching streaming movies and news. Downloading five to ten gigs of demos on Xbox Live and Play Station Network. Perhaps connecting to your office with VPN and VNC to use your desktop. That's quite a lot of bandwidth. For completely legitimate purposes. And we haven't even touched things like using remote backup services that you can find online or downloading linux ISOs or the other streaming services like Vongo, Netflix and Amazon Unboxed.

  6. Re:Nice glasses by brandor · · Score: 5, Informative

    Congressman Boucher rocks. He actually does a great job of getting things done for everyone. It doesn't hurt that he is all about technology either. He's probably the main force driving broadband adoption in Southwest Virginia (my home). Some the most recent things he's helped get accomplished are a major fiber optic pipe to Lebanon, VA (it's slowly making it's way to my small town), that pipe has convinced at least two global companies to set up shop in Southwest VA. Northrop Grumman being one and CGI-AMS being the other. He does such a great job and is liked so much that I don't think he has even had anyone oppose him in the election for the past several years. And if someone has opposed him, he won by such a margin that they might as well have not shown up. (This is me talking, I'm too lazy to look up any stats, so what I just said could be completely wrong. But, he rocks so much, it doesn't matter. Watch out Chuck Norris?)

  7. Isn't it strange... by teutonic_leech · · Score: 5, Interesting

    ... that we actually cheer when a politician we put into office for once stands up and protects our [fill in civic right of your choice]? I mean, when did things go so bad? (rhetorical question) It's sad that we all have gotten used to a status quo where our elected leaders work hand in hand with big business and constantly screw us over. I don't care what political affiliation you have - just take a step back and look what's going on in our country. I do feel very strongly about net neutrality but must also concede that it might be the least of our problem right now. Nevertheless, it is one of thousands of important issues that needs to be addressed and coming next election day we all should do our part and 'kick the bums out' (not my quote - start hearing that very frequently on Hardball recently). Anyway, sorry for the rant, but I'm trying to make a point here, which is that we need to take a step back and rebuilt our democracy - it's ridiculous that we continue to desperately grasp for a few breadcrumbs from an administration that's blatantly in bed with big business.

  8. Simple soulation by Anon-Admin · · Score: 5, Interesting

    There is a simple solution,

    If Comcast, Verizon, AT&T or anyone else blocks any content for any reason, they are (from that point on) legally liable for all remaining content. This is because the have made an effort to control the content crossing there service and by default must agree that all remaining content is acceptable.

    Then remind there legal department that it means "If you keep it up, we will hold you responsible for all the remaining content including but not limited to all the child porn, child predators, etc."

    In other words, they have violated the common carrier clause and thus are not protected from prosecution!

    Where is a lawyer when you need one?

    1. Re:Simple soulation by Thaelon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Internet providers are not common carriers. In this case I wish they were.

      --

      Question everything

  9. Congrats to the Congressman by ronadams · · Score: 4, Insightful
    From TFA:

    Unfortunately for fans of Net neutrality, the congressman said he was not ready to go down this path and instead stressed market-based methods of fixing the problems.

    Thank God. There is an alarming trend among those who want to see a "neutral net" (a sentiment I agree with) to have "Dr. Government" fix it all. this is a slippery slope in plain sight; the idea of trusting the government to keep the net neutral doesn't appeal to me any more than having Comcast do it. What happens when the next elections come, and a new party/interest is in power? What happens when X lobby group petitions to sway the government's control of the network?

    Fortunately, we have this convenient mechanism called the free market, where an outcry of foul play means an increased demand for competition. I realize this doesn't mean overnight those in Comcast-only zones are given an alternative, but over time, it is possible.

    Now, when it comes to the infrastructure, the actual physical cables, etc., there's some room for talk as to whether the Government can have some limited intervention there, because we're dealing with interstate business and infrasturcture... but that's another story.

    --
    Appended to the end of comments you post. 120 chars.
    1. Re:Congrats to the Congressman by stinerman · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You miss the point of those of us who are for government regulation. I'm willing to go with a totally free market where ISPs compete on service and price. The problem is that we need the government to step in and create a free market. Last mile connectivity is a natural monopoly (which is why you can't get POTS from anyone you want, nor can you get cable television service from anyone you want). The government should own all the pipes and allow anyone access to it at non-discriminatory rates. That is the only way you're going to have meaningful competition.

      This "hands off" talk assumes there is a free market already. There isn't, and the market will continue to devolve into an oligopoly until the government does something about it.

  10. Re:Nice glasses by je+ne+sais+quoi · · Score: 4, Informative

    Boucher was also one of the most vocal opponents of Clinton's impeachment, and has also been on record criticizing the excesses DMCA as well. He's one of the few congressmen that I'm actually glad is in in office.

    --
    Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the war room!
  11. Re:Comcast Tesll Congressman: We Own Your Colleagu by Sunburnt · · Score: 4, Funny

    sadly, we live in a facist state.

    Indeed. We demand that our presidents' faces be "presidential," discriminating against those with "non-presidential" faces. Facial discrimination is the great unspoken tragedy that stalks this nation. Fight facism now!

    --
    Tags != Comments, and -1 (Troll) != -1 (I Would Respond Angrily To This Poster So They Must Be Trolling)
  12. Re:Comcast Tesll Congressman: We Own Your Colleagu by soliptic · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Fascism is sometimes defined as something more like what you might call Corporatism. In that sense the present day USA is very obviously and definitely fascist or fascist-leaning. Of course, this sense of the word is not the widely understood meaning, which is, as you say, totalitarian, dictatorial, agressively nationalist, etc.

  13. Re:Comcast Tesll Congressman: We Own Your Colleagu by wperry1 · · Score: 3, Informative

    I believe the term he meant to use was oligarchy which somehow gets confused with fascism over and over.

    oligarchy: a government in which a small group exercises control especially for corrupt and selfish purposes; also : a group exercising such control

    from: http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=oligarchy

  14. Not Qos by wonkavader · · Score: 4, Insightful
    "Guys, if we want to win the argument on Net Neutrality, we can't keep confusing QOS with NN."

    If we want to be able to have a conversation at all, we need to stop confusing QOS with fraud. QOS sets attributes in packets which are designed to establish priority. Fraud (in this case) means posing as the customer and sending a fake message, then lying about sending the fake message.

    For example, if a telco decided to cut sampling rates on telephone calls from 8khz to 7.6khz for residential service to customers of other carriers, that would be quality of service (QOS). If, on the other hand, the carrier were to use their equipment to dial everyone who called you who was not a customer of the same carrier, spoofing your phone number on caller ID, and using a voice filter which made their voice sound enough like yours to be convincing, and telling them "Don't call me anymore. Stop. I don't want to hear from you for at least a week. Got it? Yeah, I mean it. Stop calling for a while. Don't take that tone with me. Just stop calling. Yes, this is me. Who else would I be? Now Stop Calling." And then told you that they would NEVER do such a thing. That would be fraud.

    Since telcos are being trusted with our identities (phone numbers, IPs, etc), our privacy (which they'd never violate without a warrant, as we've seen), and the functioning, as generally intended and advertised, of the Internet, character means something in this context.

    I hope this helps us get our terms in agreement, so that we can have an argument, or even a conversation, on NN.

  15. Re:Comcast Tesll Congressman: We Own Your Colleagu by camperslo · · Score: 4, Informative

    Comcast has politely reminded this wayward congressman that in America laws are paid for by bribes. Comcast then offered the congressman a "campaign contribution", silencing his dissent. The system works.

    That is why F.C.C. rules should be changed to ban paid-for political ads on radio, tv, satellite and cable.
    They should bring back the old rules where broadcasters commit on their license/renewal applications to a minimum amount of public affairs programming (which could included free political time) and limits on the maximum number of commercial minutesper hour. Broadcasters could pick their own numbers, but could be at a disadvantage at renewal time if a competing applicant wants to do more to serve the community.
    What I suggest is not a restriction on free speech, only a restriction on what broadcasters can accept payment for.

    Most of the corruption we see with our politicians relates to them selling out to obtain money for campaigns. Eliminating money from the picture for radio and tv would certainly lessen the need to raise money for campaigns.

    We should go back to earlier much more restrictive rules on how many stations a licensee could own. I think we should go beyond that and require that some specified percentage (perhaps increasing over time) of stations in a region have licensees that live in the city-grade coverage area of their station. Having local licensees would go a long ways towards making broadcasters more responsive to serving the needs of their local communities.

    Having a free and diverse press and broadcasters and a free flow of information is essential for democracy to function properly. We should not allow any corporate or special interest groups to own a sizeable chunk of our broadcast stations. These stations are supposed to be trustees of the public interest, not just cash cows for large companies.

  16. Mexico is going that route right now by Santana · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Mexico has approved a reform to the current electoral legislation which does something similar.

    The last presidential elections were so full of spots on TV that were more about bad mouthing the competitor than proposing solutions. A lot of money had to be raised and compromises were made by the competitors for sure.

    The winner is the one who has the deepest wallet.

    From now on, candidates can use only the government's paid time on TV.

    The media is going crazy of course because they won't get a lot of money any more for the spots, and they're masquerading this worry as a "free speech" violation (because they won't be able editorialize the campaign coverage in any form)

    It's not a coincidence that Dong Nguyen Huu has said that the Mexican electoral system is one of the most advanced in the world. Let's see how it goes.

    --
    The best way to predict the future is to invent it
  17. The 14 points of Fascism by aztektum · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Disclaimer: My comments mostly point at occurrences under Bush. I feel Dems and Reps are equally shady, under handed parties. Other than cut/paste the list, I didn't dig around for anything other than what I came up with off the top of my head.

    Fascist Warning Sign #1: Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism.

    If you're not with "U.S." you're a terrorist. Bills named the "Patriot Act" so sheeple feel warm and fuzzy.

    Fascist Warning Sign #2: Disdain for the importance of human rights.

    Suspension of Habeus corpus, illegal phone taps, "enemy combatants", black bag kidnappings, Patriot Act...

    Fascist Warning Sign #3: Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause.

    "Axis of Evil"

    Fascist Warning Sign #4: The supremacy of the military/avid militarism.

    Bush has had the military deployed in combat for 6 years. His administration continues to suggest they will attack other countries if they don't follow our ultimatums.

    Fascist Warning Sign #5: Rampant sexism.

    This one maybe not so much. Our international talking head (Condoleeza) counts against #5 I would say.

    Fascist Warning Sign #6: A controlled mass media.

    Maybe not directly, but the networks kowtow in order to not be left out and really don't question much.

    Fascist Warning Sign #7: Obsession with national security.

    This one should be pretty obvious.

    Fascist Warning Sign #8: Religion and ruling elite tied together.

    In God We Trust.

    Fascist Warning Sign #9: Power of corporations protected.

    This one isn't just a Bush thing. This goes back decades.

    Fascist Warning Sign #10: Power of labor suppressed or eliminated.

    See #9

    Fascist Warning Sign #11: Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts.

    Suppression of global warming research, laws/court rulings protecting IP while minimizing fair use.

    Fascist Warning Sign #12: Obsession with crime and punishment.

    Bush governed Texas, the state with a record for most executions. Before his time began the war on drugs. Even individual states are guilty of this.

    Fascist Warning Sign #13: Rampant cronyism and corruption.

    Abrahmoff, Halliburton no-bid contracts, etc etc

    Fascist Warning Sign #14: Fraudulent elections.

    Who can tell. Maybe not directly, but supporters running local campaigns have passed out false information pamphlets in attempts to keep.

    So that's what, 2 of 14 I can't come up with something right off the top of my head. Viva Liberty!

    --
    :: aztek ::
    No sig for you!!