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Germany Seeks Expansion of Computer Spying

gooman writes "The LA Times reports on a proposal to secretly scan suspects' hard drives which is causing unease in a nation with a history of official surveillance. Along with several other European countries, Germany is seeking authority to plant secret Trojan viruses into the computers of suspects that could scan files, photos, diagrams and voice recordings, record every keystroke typed and possibly even turn on webcams and microphones in an attempt to gain knowledge of attacks before they happen."

18 of 177 comments (clear)

  1. Europe beating USA in the big brother arms race by MeditationSensation · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You hear a lot of stories on sites these days about the USA turning into a police state, but I think the UK (all those CCTVs) and I guess now Germany are really kicking our butts in that department lately.

    1. Re:Europe beating USA in the big brother arms race by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      At least we're doing it officially, via laws and court reviews. Your Government is sneaking behind your back, granting retro-active immunity to anyone breaking the law when the gig ape said so.

    2. Re:Europe beating USA in the big brother arms race by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Quoth the AC:

      You elected the party, Brown leads it now. Deal with it.

      Why should I? Here's some electoral facts for you, from the 2005 general election:

      • Labour received only 1/3 or so of the votes, which corresponds to only 22% of the total electorate. Despite this, Labour holds an absolute majority in Parliament and by a substantial margin.
      • Labour lost the popular vote in England to the Conservatives. Despite this, Labour currently has 286 MPs for English constituencies, while the Conservatives have only 194 (and the incidental changes since the general election are nowhere close to this margin).
      • Labour campaigned on a promise that Tony Blair would serve a full third term as Prime Minister, i.e., voters were explicitly not voting for a party Gordon Brown would be leading before the next election.
      • Gordon Brown could have called an election this summer to establish a personal mandate, but decided at the last minute not to risk the alternative ending.

      So apart from the fact that our first past the post electoral system is pretty crooked to begin with, the Labour Party's mandate to hold those seats in government expired the moment a central promise of their pre-election manifesto was broken and they have carefully avoided seeking an independent mandate for the new administration.

      Now, you can cut that any way you want and make smart-ass comments as an AC if you like, but it's still no more than a pretence of representative democracy. I wonder how our friends in the US would react if Bush was forced out of office, some other Republican with significantly different views was appointed to replace him without a vote, and that person set about restaffing the entire administration and rewriting policy, knowing he was completely immune to any sort of electoral consequences for several years anyway.

      Representation is a rather essential part of representative democracy. That's why Labour has no mandate in England. That's also why people frown on measures that could be used to skew the measurement of what the people want when their representatives are chosen, such as those in Germany that we're discussing here. Speaking of which, this little thread has drifted rather off-topic, so now, back to our normally scheduled political ranting... :-)

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    3. Re:Europe beating USA in the big brother arms race by zehoo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Apparently the best way to protect our freedom is to spend a lot of money taking it away. ^^

  2. Talk about spyware! by RyanFenton · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If this doesn't convince anyone who'd be considered 'suspicious' online in Germany to load up on spyware prevention-and-detection tools (assuming they're using Windows), I don't know what will.

    It'll be interesting to see if some future mandatory German tax software might have a list of 'incompatible software' that it will kindly uninstall for you in future tax seasons.

    Ryan Fenton

  3. When will Europe learn? by ObiWanStevobi · · Score: 4, Insightful

    In America, the government just does things like this, hoping it stays a secret. If it is found out, you smear anyone who is upset as anti-American. If there are hearings on it, you get amnesia and claim executive priveledge. Eventaully, a congressman will have sex with something, or somewhere, he isn't supposed to, and everyone forgets.

    Really, it's a wonderful system we have here.

    1. Re:When will Europe learn? by geeknado · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I actually think the fact that this could potentially be done /without/ secrecy more worrisome. Keeping secrets generally implies an acknowledgement by the government that the populace will not be pleased if they discover the reality of the situation. In fact, this has actually been the case. There're wire tapping apologists, certainly, but there're reasons that the Shrub's approval rating is so low, and that program is one of them.

      My point is, concealing the facts generally implies that there is some fear of the popular reaction. A country in which the government /doesn't/ fear the backlash from such invasive techniques is a far scarier place to live, IMO.

    2. Re:When will Europe learn? by ObiWanStevobi · · Score: 1, Insightful

      A good point. At least here you have to say something like "It's for the children" or "The terrorists will win if we don't" before we pass a law that would allow this. Otherwise no one would think it was a good idea.

  4. Sounds familiar... by jdtch · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Wow, sounds like the Geheime Staatspolizei are making their comeback.

    1. Re:Sounds familiar... by NorQue · · Score: 2, Insightful

      More like the East-German STASI. And a lot of people here see it like that.

  5. I'd rather get attacked.... by EntropyXP · · Score: 2, Insightful

    than give up my rights.

    --
    "No one will really be free until nerd persecution ends."
  6. Re:Linux by rubies · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Running Linux will simply make you a greater suspect - in the current environment, you obviously must have something to hide.

  7. Since you weren't there, I'll fill you in: by geekoid · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It failed.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  8. Mission Creep is the Worry by MrSteveSD · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Whenever governments want some new power, the major threat is nearly always "Mission Creep". They start off by saying that the new measures will only apply to terror suspects (or whatever) and things will have to be approved etc. A year or so down the line though, once people are used to it, they extend things a little. Then a while later, they do it again. Before you know it, you can end up with a real big brother situation.

    An example of this is the criminal genetic database in the UK. Initially it was only for convicted criminals, but there has been mission creep for years and they now keep huge amounts of genetic data, even from people who are completely innocent.

  9. Fearmongering, anyone? by gillbates · · Score: 5, Insightful

    A terrorist attack with nuclear weapons is certain. The question is no longer whether such an attack could be carried out by terrorists, but when," Schaeuble told the Frankfurter Allgemeine newspaper in September.[emphasis added]

    If the attack is so certain, why haven't we arrested the terrorist(s)? Which is more likely:

    • The terrorists have already acquired nuclear weapons, know how to detonate them, and are simply biding their time (Osama on vacation?!), or
    • There hasn't been a terrorist nuclear attack because the terrorists haven't been able to acquire a nuclear weapon, don't know how to detonate it, or they're all interned in Guantanamo or elsewhere.

    Fearmongering for personal political gain only detracts from the real issues surrounding terrorism. You know, things like:

    1. The most successful terrorism investigations have involved regular, old-fashioned police work.
    2. The 9/11 terrorists all had valid ID's.
    3. The violations of human rights and common dignity brought about in the name of combating terrorism.
    4. The inability of torture to actually produce usable intelligence, not to mention the moral and ethical dilemnas surrounding it.
    5. The difficulty of stemming the tide of new terrorist recruits when combating terrorism with military tactics.
    6. The moral dilemna of shifting the fight over terrorism to third world countries with no prior history of supporting terrorism.
    7. The Constitutional dilemna of summarily denying rights to an entire class of people by allowing the Justice Department to arbitrarily reclassify their status from "enemy combatant" to "unlawful combatant".
    8. The military dilemna of the United States violation of the Geneva convention in the prosecution of the "War on Terror".
    9. The political dilemna of power seizure by the executive branch made possible by informal declarations of war on concepts and ideas, rather than actual enemies.

    Instead of responding to goons like this, we should instead focus on the fact that other law enforcement officials have been able to conduct successful terrorism investigations without resorting to devices such as these.

    --
    The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
  10. Re:Please by MightyMartian · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The point behind even publicly announcing such a plan is that it makes those who the German government plans on targeting fearful. Even if the ability of the German police or whoever is going to be responsible for this program can only hope to directly monitor a fraction of those that they would like, the strategy is to make Big Brother front and center in the eyes of the German people.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  11. Whoever gets there first loses by Scrameustache · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You hear a lot of stories on sites these days about the USA turning into a police state, but I think the UK (all those CCTVs) and I guess now Germany are really kicking our butts in that department lately. Ya know, it's not supposed to be a race!
    --

    You can't take the sky from me...

  12. Re:An all together different Schindler's list :) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    They were using shoes, they were wearing hats, it would have been very, very helpful to track them down by legally bugging every shoe and hat in the country.