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Microsoft Claims Patent On Elements of Embedded Linux?

Posted by Zonk on from the strange-bedfellows dept.

Preedit writes "An InformationWeek story points out a recent deal between Microsoft and Japanese printer maker Kyocera Mita. Under the agreement, Kyocera obtained from Microsoft a license to patents used in 'certain Linux-based embedded technologies.' The question the author asks is why Kyocera needs a patent license from Microsoft to develop its embedded Linux products."

48 of 191 comments (clear)

  1. Simple by eclectro · · Score: 4, Funny

    Agree to the deal or get a chair in your face.

    --
    Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
    1. Re:Simple by Tackhead · · Score: 5, Funny
      > Agree to the deal or get a chair in your face.

      Close, but those aren't the right laws. Here are laws.

      MONKEYDOME!

      0) Who run Microtown? STEVIE BALLMER RUN MICROTOWN!
      1) Two competitors enter, ONE MONOPOLIST LEAVES!
      2) Agree to the deal, or YOUR IP WE'LL STEAL!
      3) Laissez-faire? FACE THE CHAIR!

    2. Re:Simple by ozmanjusri · · Score: 4, Funny
      ...or get a chair in your face.

      Worse than that.

      "We believe that intellectual property licensing is an empowering way to bring innovation to the IT ecosystem," said David Kaefer, general manager of Intellectual Property and Licensing at Microsoft. "Empowering way to bring innovation to the IT ecosystem"??? I've been read Vogon poetry that was less nauseating than that line.
      --
      "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
    3. Re:Simple by hdparm · · Score: 2

      Ever read ANYTHING more nauseating?

  2. Useless Article... by gillbates · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I used to be an embedded Linux developer.

    However, I could more thoughtfully comment on this if the article revealed just what patents Microsoft believes Kyocera to be violating. It could have nothing to do with Linux; moreover, it could very well be a patent on some method of printing which is specific to the Kyocera hardware and just happens to be implemented as a Linux driver.

    Looks more like FUD against Linux than anything else.

    --
    The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
    1. Re:Useless Article... by flymolo · · Score: 2

      We know Microsoft has some patents involving anti-aliasing and other font rendering stuff. I would be more interested if they convinced an embedded developer, who wasn't using a GUI or printing or SMB.

      --
      "Sometimes it's hard to tell the dancer from the dance." --Corwin Of Amber in CoC
    2. Re:Useless Article... by Mrs.+Grundy · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Absolutely,

      From the article:

      Is it adding proprietary Microsoft technology on top of embedded Linux?
      Could be...

      Hard to know what that means--it's deliberately vague.

      Now that's some reporting. There is really nothing to see here.
    3. Re:Useless Article... by davidsyes · · Score: 4, Interesting

      (I keisseikki will mod me troll or flamebait, but...)

      Based on the recent news of a major Korean company being under investigation for corruption/et cetera (this isn't localized to Korea, just mentioning it in proximity to this article), I will go on a limb and say microsoft is just wheeling and dealing and paying some exec to "go along with the script":

      "We'll claim you're violating one or more of our patents; doesn't matter which ones, if they're pending or not; doesn't matter if later the USPTO tells us we're full of it; doesn't matter if prior art exists. WE rule this world, and if you play by our terms, Sonsaengnim, you'll make a buttload of money."

      That's the business world for you.

      --
      Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
    4. Re:Useless Article... by Edward+Ka-Spel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I agree, since everyone knows that Japan and Korea are really the exact same country, and everything that applies in Korea is exactly the same as in Japan. In fact, all of Asia is really just like one big homogeneous country. Kind of like corruption in Mexico means America is corrupt too.

      On second though, it does sound more like a troll to me.

    5. Re:Useless Article... by ozmanjusri · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Kyocera also make digital cameras and other devices that use removable media.

      Microsoft has been granted patents to FAT32 and VFAT, so there's a good chance Kyocera would want rights to use that.

      --
      "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
    6. Re:Useless Article... by nametaken · · Score: 3, Informative


      And there probably never will be. If you've ever contacted MS IP Licensing you know that you can't even discuss licensing their technologies until after you're under NDA.

    7. Re:Useless Article... by setagllib · · Score: 2, Informative

      For all its faults, Windows has supported the standard IPP (Internet Printing Protocol) for a long time. I've never needed to use Samba as a printer sharer, although it can still be convenient for network discovery. Sure, Windows' IPP still has catches like only allowing raw printing, but hey, that's the kind of shit you come to expect.

      --
      Sam ty sig.
    8. Re:Useless Article... by aproposofwhat · · Score: 2, Informative
      I agree - pure FUD.

      From the article:

      What does Kyocera get? The right to use patented Microsoft technology in its printers, copiers and "certain Linux-based embedded devices."

      Note the phrasing carefully - it specifically does not say that embedded Linux uses patented Microsoft technology, rather that Kyocera may use the technology in some of its applications of embedded Linux.

      Of course, Microsoft try to spin it the other way, but it's pure FUD. No more, no less.

      --
      One swallow does not a fellatrix make
  3. A few questions for Kyocera by compumike · · Score: 5, Insightful

    We know that Microsoft claims to hold patents that Linux users are infringing... but they won't tell us which ones. What's new?

    So there are two possibilities: either they've got a specific one or two that they're really able to show Kyocera that are troublesome, or they've just got this massive library of "probable" ones that Kyocera decided to give in to. What would be more interesting to know is who approached who about the deal. What does it permit? What did that cost?

    Anyway, this is at the stage where it isn't using patent law, but is just using corporate risk expectations. Very dangerous... which is why MSFT doesn't want to show their hand.

    Software patent lifetimes should probably get quite a bit shorter, too...

    --
    Educational microcontroller kits for the digital generation.

    1. Re:A few questions for Kyocera by cptdondo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Or they just cross-licensed some proprietary stuff and threw in the 'linux' word for fun. Kyocera has been working with MS since at least the TRS Model 100 days - they built the hardware, MS supplied the software and that was - what - 25 years ago?

    2. Re:A few questions for Kyocera by krycheq · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes, but when does a "patent" become a hindrance to society by stifling innovation and competition? All that Microsoft has done is made a non-specific claim about owning patents and companies that can't pay the toll are afraid to move forward because they might end up sued into non-existence.

      That's called a back-door monopoly... and it hurts us, the marketplace, and the implementation of the benefits of technology we should all enjoy.

    3. Re:A few questions for Kyocera by alx5000 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Or maybe the agreement invoves certain benefits for the Korean firm from MS (money, etc), in exchange for providing the world with this PR stunt, that would complete their threat on linux alleged infringement on MS's IP...

      --
      My 0.02 cents
    4. Re:A few questions for Kyocera by JohnBailey · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes, but when does a "patent" become a hindrance to society by stifling innovation and competition? All that Microsoft has done is made a non-specific claim about owning patents and companies that can't pay the toll are afraid to move forward because they might end up sued into non-existence.

      That's called a back-door monopoly... and it hurts us, the marketplace, and the implementation of the benefits of technology we should all enjoy. It doesn't really say anything. Its like a major news story about an explosion in an animal shelter with the tag line "authorities do not suspect terrorist involvement" Spices up the story a little, but adds no actual information.

      There are three distinct and unrelated aspects to the story.

      1) Microsoft and Kyocera signed a cross licence agreement.

      Common business practice. Nothing suspicious. The only relevant bit.

      2) Kyocera uses Linux in some of it's products.

      Again nothing unusual, and nothing suspicious. Mostly irrelevant, although there is the possibility that Microsoft patented functions might run with but not be part of the Linux functionality.

      3) Microsoft claim to have patents relevant to Linux.

      Nothing new, nothing proven. Most likely FUD. Not relevant in this story. Patents are a very dangerous weapon for all concerned. The owner of the patent is in just as much danger as the target company. Which is why businesses usually cross license instead of going to court. Especially if they are big companies like Microsoft and Kyocera.

      Because 1 and 2 are true, doesn't automatically make 3 part of the deal. Much as I would love to be critical of Microsoft. HTey haven't done anything unusual or immoral. They have just made a common business deal. End of story.

      --
      It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it.
  4. It's a trap! by cromar · · Score: 3, Insightful

    But seriously, it seems that Microsoft is going to keep after Linux until it has it surrounded on all sides. Then I suppose they'll get to a lawsuit. And, while Linux will be found to be free of MS patents, it will end up costing Microsoft's enemies so much to defend Linux that they will be forced into oblivion...

    1. Re:It's a trap! by memojuez · · Score: 2, Informative

      Novell and IBM had deeper pockets than SCO. Microsoft infused enough cash to keep SCO going for awhile.

      --
      Signature applied for, Patent Pending
  5. Japanese culture? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    My uncle works in IT for a Japanese company of some size. He often speaks of the Japanese management as if this were still the eighties and sometimes its almost racist,so I apologize for him if this is insulting to anyone so take this with a heaping dose of salt.

    He thinks that it goes against the Japanese culture to use a technology without paying for it, that it shows disrespect to not pay for software licenses. He is not even allowed to consider using Linux or any other OSS for that matter.

    1. Re:Japanese culture? by DragonWriter · · Score: 4, Interesting

      He thinks that it goes against the Japanese culture to use a technology without paying for it, that it shows disrespect to not pay for software licenses. He is not even allowed to consider using Linux or any other OSS for that matter.


      Many companies I've known won't use software if they aren't paying someone for support and a license (and, often, particular support guarantees and/or performance warranties.) I don't know anything about Japanese culture, but in business the need to have some else that's feet can be held to the fire if something goes wrong is a big deal.

      Of course, you can get paid support (and sometimes licensing, when the software is under a dual OSS/commercial licensing model) for most OSS you might want to adopt in a business environment, so neither cultural nor business-based reluctance to use software without paying for it should be a major barrier to OSS adoption.
    2. Re:Japanese culture? by tbird20d · · Score: 5, Informative

      I work for Sony, putting Linux into many different Sony products. I also lead the CE Linux Forum, which has a number of large of members from Japan. I can assure you that Linux is used in Japan in droves, and that the range of practices for obtaining Linux, from paying a vendor to downloading directly from kernel.org, is as broad there as anywhere else in the world.

    3. Re:Japanese culture? by Tablizer · · Score: 2, Funny

      He thinks that it goes against the Japanese culture to use a technology without paying for it, that it shows disrespect to not pay for software licenses. He is not even allowed to consider using Linux or any other OSS for that matter.

      What if they donate some money to antarctic penguin preservation?

      --
      Table-ized A.I.
    4. Re:Japanese culture? by Ox0065 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I've personally worked in two Japanese companies, in Japan. One massive, monolithic and very conservative, the other a young upstart with incompetent management. In both cases, accountability, or the avoidance thereof was all.

      In the big one, any proposal/request had to be stamped by a long LONG line of people before it could be approved, so that if anything went wrong the blame was distributed. If there was no form in existence to suitably acquire said distributed blame, it was 'difficult'
      (= impossible / forbidden / no)

      In the other, they implemented a locked down linux across all workstations after a disgruntled former employee erased their main server. They also switched their server from Windows 2000 (it was a while ago) to Solaris. This was a company where having a shiny piece of paper that said you weren't to blame wouldn't make a lick of difference if the CEO was smacking you about the head.

      In the first kind of company, nobody will ever get fired for opting for the Microsoft option. Microsoft is an infinitely appropriate designated recipient of blame. If your OpenBSD server gets owned, who do you point at?

      That's all.

      --
      thx e
    5. Re:Japanese culture? by Ox0065 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I knew a guy who left his wallet on the seat of the Yamanote-sen, THE loop around central Tokyo with a train in both directions about every 90sec packed solid during rush hour. He went back to the station & waited on the platform at the same door (they always stop at the same spot on the platform) and sure enough that train came back around & his wallet was still on the seat, with a full complement of contents. I think a big part of it was that there were enough people to watch it for him... ...clearly nobody was even game to carry it to an office. Japan has a long history of peer observation as a control mechanism.

      --
      thx e
  6. Probably a case of CYA by Arabani · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Kyocera Mita appears to be a "small" company - revenues for the parent corporation (Mita is their printer division, it appears) were a little shy of $3 billion in 2006, while Epson had revenues of $12.7 billion last year. Granted, I'm not sure how valid this comparison is, but if this disparity is typical, it could very well be that Kyocera decided it would be safer to play Microsoft's game than to potentially face a court battle they would have trouble fighting.

  7. They Don't. by TheRaven64 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The GPL states that they may only distribute the code if they accompany it with the rights for any derivatives to use any patents it infringes. If they discover that they infringe some patents in Linux then they must stop distributing Linux until they have obtained a license to the patents that is compatible with the GPL (which means that anyone who is in the transitive closure of recipients of the code from them also gains the license). In summary, if they have obtained a license from Microsoft then either they are in violation of the GPL or no one else needs to obtain such a license and Microsoft's FUD evaporates in a puff of logic.

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    1. Re:They Don't. by corychristison · · Score: 2, Funny

      That puff was logic?
      Damnit! I thought it was Opium. :-(

    2. Re:They Don't. by pipatron · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The GPL has been proven to be unenforcable

      Show us the the source of this statment, or stuh teh fkuc up and go back to the caves of Redmond.

      --
      c++; /* this makes c bigger but returns the old value */
  8. Not just fud... by tqft · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I think it is more than fud...

    By binding potential developers (and we will may never see what is in the agreement in total) to MS it may make it a lot harder for them to deliver products that work with linux.

    Now everytime they go to release a driver legal are going to have to have a good hard look at driver and the MS agreement.

    How long before it gets to be too much hard work and they not bother?

    "developers, developers, developers" is still true. Without delivery of new products any OS will die. Kyocera Mita make stuff people want to use in business settings - printer/fax machines and stuff like that.

    --
    The Singularity is closer than you think
    Quant
  9. they're pretty bad poker players too by petes_PoV · · Score: 3, Insightful
    It looks like Kyocera don't recognise a bluff when they see one.

    Maye we should all get in touch with them and say that we might own patents that they may be infringing. Just to be sure, they need to sign this licensing agreement and pay $xxxx for an assurance that we won't sue them in the future.

    This seems to be just what MS have done, but being bigger and scarier than we are, they can get a way with it.

    --
    politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
  10. Maybe were reading this deal the wrong way.... by NullProg · · Score: 4, Interesting

    What does Kyocera get? The right to use patented Microsoft technology in its printers, copiers and "certain Linux-based embedded devices."

    Maybe Kyocera just licensed Fonts/ODBC or some other mundane MS technology to use in their products. Food for thought.

    Enjoy,

    --
    It's just the normal noises in here.
    1. Re:Maybe were reading this deal the wrong way.... by James+Youngman · · Score: 2, Informative

      I think you have hit the nail on the head there. I'd bet that the technology under consideration is Microsoft's fonts (or perhaps the mechanism for using the associated rendering hints).

    2. Re:Maybe were reading this deal the wrong way.... by NullProg · · Score: 2, Informative

      Probably the claims MS is making in all of these cases derive from Samba not the linux kernel itself. Samba may not violate MS copyright because it is developed independently, but in certain legal jurisdictions one could at least argue that MS intellectual property is involved.

      Like MS or not Samba is used in order to inter-operate with Windows and MS might actually have some legitimate claims.


      I've heard the Samba IP argument before. It doesn't hold water (IANAL). Windows/DOS networking (Netbios/SMB) was born out of a joint IBM/3Com/Microsoft venture back in the 80s. Microsoft owns about as much IP in Samba as 3Com and IBM do. Microsofts enhancements (bastardization ?) of kerberos authentication entitles them to no additional IP or innovation points.

      My 2-bits.
      Enjoy,

      --
      It's just the normal noises in here.
  11. Re:Damn! by calebt3 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Seems to me that it is Kyocera that is bending over.

  12. Re:Standad MS business practice... by LWATCDR · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "...started when Bill Gates ported BASIC."
    He didn't port basic. He wrote a Basic interpreter for the 8080!
    I am not a Microsoft fan. In fact I am a Linux user but give me a break.
    If Bill Gates ported basic then the Samba team ported Microsoft networking and the Mysql team ported SQL!
    Porting means you have the source code to a program and you get it to run on a new cpu. Gates, with some help wrote a Basic interpreter for a tiny cpu in assembly. He WROTE a version basic for the 8080. He didn't port it.

    --
    See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
  13. Now Kyocera IS infringing? by Lost+Penguin · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Seems to me, Kyocera needs to release the added "MS IP" code they are using as required by the GPL ASAP!
    If the Linux source code Kyocera is using is really containing "IP" from Microsoft, we should be able to see what the heck Kyocera licensed.

    --
    I am the unwilling control for my Origin.
  14. Flexible Business Ethics by hyades1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'd give my eye teeth to know whether the same kind of effort Microsoft put forth unsuccessfully in Nigeria worked in the more understated environment of the Japanese corporate world. I doubt anything will ever be proven, but watch out for a quid pro quo down the road somewhere.

    --
    I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
  15. Tell me what I am missing here. by westlake · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Under the deal, Microsoft gets to add patented Kyocera Mita technology to its Windows and Office products. What does Kyocera get? The right to use patented Microsoft technology in its printers, copiers and "certain Linux-based embedded devices."

    Kyocera makes everything from ball-point pens to machine tools.

    Kyocera is interested in things like data security in printing. Kyocera Mita America's Data Security Kit Offers Critical Data Protection of Stored Data on Color Multifunctional Products [November 14, 2007]

    Microsoft is also interested in things like data security in printing.

    Tell me why the Geek trots out his paranoia every time two companies that compliment each other sign a cross-licensing agreement.

  16. If you read closely, by mr_mischief · · Score: 3, Insightful

    it only says they're gaining the right to use Microsoft IP in embedded Linux devices. It doesn't say they were using the property already or that there was any infringement. Kyocera could make this deal and start using Microsoft IP that they were not using beforehand and Microsoft could word it exactly the same way. Kyocera could gain the permission to use Microsoft tech combined with Linux and still not plan on using it, and Microsoft could still word it the same way.

  17. Re:Useless Article... UCLA owns it by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 3, Interesting

    We know Microsoft has some patents involving anti-aliasing and other font rendering stuff.

    We also know that UCLA has recently sued over the non-licensed usage of it's patents by a number of software technology firms, including Microsoft.

    All your stolen Microsoft patents are belong to Cali!

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  18. Microsoft's Long Term Plan by nurb432 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If they can tie up enough hardware and software distributors and make it difficult to release anything commercially for linux, it will help kill it off or at least reduce it back down to a mere hobby and no longer a threat.

    Once the next generation of hardware comes out, and you cant get a driver as its so tied up in the legal world that it can never escape, what will you have left to run? Why, officially endorsed Microsoft software and hardware of course.

    It wont happen today, or tomorrow, but they have the time and money to think *really* long term ( like in decades ) on this

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  19. Probably XPS by AirLace · · Score: 3, Informative

    This is likely to be about XPS, the Microsoft XML Paper Specification, Microsoft's PS/PDF successor. I'd guess that Kyocera has written an XPS implementation for Linux, and wants to deploy it to support uses printing directly from XPS-enabled software. An open source XPS implementation was written within a few weeks of the release of the XPS spec -- maybe they're even just shipping that: http://www.ndesk.org/Xps

    The spec is freely available, but the introductory paragraphs in the spec suggest that implementing it without licenses is not permitted.

  20. Re:Standad MS business practice... by Oriumpor · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Just to make sure Samba gets credit where samba is due... They wrote the spec, not Microsoft. If it weren't for them CIFS wouldn't exist as it does today. MSFT embraced and extended as always.

  21. Nothing new... by __aajbyc7391 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Microsoft and LG Electronics, best known for its DVD players, home theater systems, and cellphones, announced on June 7 that they had entered into a patent cross-license agreement to enable LG to use Microsoft patented technology in its product lines, including in its Linux-based embedded devices.

  22. software patents by falconwolf · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Software patent lifetimes should probably get quite a bit shorter, too...

    Software patents shouldn't exist at all, neither should patents for business methods. Only non obvious hardware implementations and unique solutions not already published should be patented.

    Falcon
    --
    Should there be a Law?
  23. A chair flies across a room. by rice_burners_suck · · Score: 2, Informative

    Hmmm... A story involving Microsoft. To this, I must add the obligatory "flying chair" comment:

    Google is a better company than Microsoft.

    This story also mentions Linux. Did I mention that the better company uses Linux extensively? Hmmm... maybe that has something to do with Google being better.