Vista Makes CNET UK's List of "Worst Consumer Tech"

Several anonymous readers pointed us at CNET UK's Crave blog for a list of what is or was, in their opinion, the worst consumer tech in history. Vista comes in at number 10, in company with Apple's puck mouse (number 6) and Sony's CD rootkit (number 9). According to Crave: "[Vista's] incompatibility with hardware, its obsessive requirement of human interaction to clear security dialogue box warnings and its abusive use of hated DRM, not to mention its general pointlessness as an upgrade, are just some examples of why this expensive operating system earns the final place in our terrible tech list." That's gotta hurt a little, coinciding as it does with Apple's Don't Give Up On Vista attack ad.

Comments

Explain something to me . . .

[UnknowingFool]

Apple's puck mouse was #6. Vista was #10 and Sony's rootkit was #9. I admit that the mouse was more form than function. But it didn't really cause harm unlike like Sony's rootkit and isn't the fiasco that is Vista. So why is it higher? Also if users didn't like the mouse, they could replace it with a $20 model from a store. Many people I know don't use the mouse that came with the computer. You can't easily replace Vista or get rid of the rootkit.

Re:Explain something to me . . .

[Lumpy]

You can't easily replace Vista

really? my 16 year old daughter did it this evening on her new laptop. I handed her a copy of XP and gave her some very basic instructions.

Replacing vista or any OS is actually quite easy when you are not afraid of it. Unfortunately 90% of the community is deathly afraid of it because of their lack of basic computer education.

Re:Explain something to me . . .

[badasscat]

I'm on my third 360 but besides it breaking all the time I would not call it a POS. It's actually quite great.

If you bought any other product that required two replacements for defective hardware, I guarantee you would not be saying that. Try this: replace the "360" in the first sentence above with any one of the following: "Camry", "47 inch plasma television", "lawnmower", "food processor". See? It sounds ridiculous.

Why do people have this double-standard about the Xbox 360? If it's broken on you twice, it is a piece of junk. Apply the same standard of quality to it as you do to anything else.

btw, I was amused to see the 360 at my local Gamestop displaying the RROD on my trip there this past weekend.

Re:Explain something to me . . .

[causality]

Why do people have this double-standard about the Xbox 360? If it's broken on you twice, it is a piece of junk.

It's not limited to the Xbox; you can see similar low expectations with lots of computer or electronic devices. There is a general laziness/stupidity (it can be hard to tell the difference) that average users display due to basic computing that they do not display for things at least as complex, such as their finances, politics, religion, job skills, love lives, etc. This is why there arose the saying "an expert is someone who can read the manual". It's why you hear about users who use their mouse as a foot pedal, or users who answer "Uh, Google!" when asked over the telephone which Web browser they are using, or really forget to turn the machine on (and/or connect the power cord) often enough that it's the first thing a tech asks about. It's why you don't hear about drivers who try to use the accelerator as a hand pedal or car dealers who say "Uh, the road!" when asked what model car they're selling today or televisions declared defective that were never plugged in. There's just something about computers that makes people go into a "dummy mode" where they assume that everything they thought they knew needs to go out the window, except that they take this too far and throw out basic reasoning, the laws of physics, logic, and notions like cause-and-effect as well. With this seems to go their self-confidence and the willingness to try and take a risk of making a mistake, even though the price of failure is much lower in computing than in personal finances, job performance, relationships, etc.

As with most things in life, this situation did not arise from a vacuum and has a deeper cause. The fact that most people do not notice this because $TV_SHOW, $CELEBRITY'S personal drama, or latest $BE_AFRAID_OF_THIS news presentation are more important is part of the problem. That cause might be laziness, in the sense of being too lazy to increase your skill level even though doing so is possible; maybe it's also the whole instant gratification culture that fails to do a cost-benefit evaluation of self-education (on computing or anything else where mediocrity is widely tolerated). It could also be that the rote memorization and the following of procedures that dominates everything else that most people do really has made them so stupid (muscles and wits both entropy if not used) that they clam up when faced with a new and more dynamic environment. In either case, the process by which we have become this way and who really benefits from this situation -- that is, a nice and docile and complacent populace who have a hard time thinking critically -- is something that should be considered carefully.

Apply the same standard of quality to it as you do to anything else.

I wish we would start doing this with all commercial software, on the grounds that since you are paying for it, it's something like fraud if it does not work as advertised or frequently malfunctions. Perhaps ideally it would be understood that with free-as-in-beer software (both GPL and closed-source freeware), if I did not pay for it then I have no reasonable expectation that it will be of any value to me at all, but if I did pay for i.e. a commercial Linux distribution, then this should apply to that vendor as well. This idea of holding the manufacturer liable should not apply to "pirates" who did not pay and should be to the same degree that product liability would apply to a vendor of any tangible retail goods, where there may also be such concepts as contributory negligence.

And why not? The software companies (along with the *IAA's) talk about "intellectual property" when they benefit from what amounts to artificial scarcity, so why not give them both sides of the coin when it comes to treating 0s and 1s like tangible property? Other industries don't get to pick-and-choose the advan

as much as I dislike Vista

[jtroutman]

and its onerous security notifications, adherence to DRM and general pointlessness, I don't think that "incompatibility with hardware" is really a valid statement. It runs on modern hardware from a wide variety of vendors. If you want to see an operating system with stringent hardware requirements, you need look no further than OSX. At least I can show people how to run the OS on my own hardware without the software's manufacturer coming after me and threatening legal action if I don't stop.

Re:as much as I dislike Vista

[Osty]

and its onerous security notifications, adherence to DRM and general pointlessness, I don't think that "incompatibility with hardware" is really a valid statement.

I'm not even sure "onerous security notifications" and "adherence to DRM" are valid statements. If you're seeing a bunch of UAC prompts, either you're running some really crap apps that don't understand how to work in a multi-user environment, you're doing a lot of admin work (in which case you may as well just turn off UAC), or you're doing something very, very wrong. In an average week of work + home computing, I see maybe two or three UAC prompts the entire time, and I'm running with UAC on.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "adherence to DRM", but I assume you're referring to the old, debunked rumor from several years prior to Vista's release that claimed all audio and video would be degraded if you weren't using DRMed content and/or locked down hardware. That's been proven false many times over. Obviously Vista has to follow certain rules in order to play HD-DVD and/or Blu-Ray content, but that's the fault of the MPAA, not Microsoft. Either you implement the secure pipeline and require hardware to match (HDMI-everything), or you don't get to play that content at full resolution. The same applies to any OS, not just Vista.

Re:as much as I dislike Vista

[jtroutman]

In an average week of work + home computing, I see maybe two or three UAC prompts the entire time, and I'm running with UAC on.

That's three times more than are necessary.

Obviously Vista has to follow certain rules in order to play HD-DVD and/or Blu-Ray content, but that's the fault of the MPAA, not Microsoft. Either you implement the secure pipeline and require hardware to match (HDMI-everything), or you don't get to play that content at full resolution.

And if Microsoft, with 90+ percent of the market, said, "No, if you want to get your movies into our market, you'll get rid of this annoying, overhead causing crap that our consumers hate."

And as for the old, debunked rumor from several years prior to Vista's release you should read this, last updated earlier this year.

Re:as much as I dislike Vista

[calebt3]

That's three times more than are necessary. I enter my password quite often in Ubuntu when doing admin-level adjustments.

Re:as much as I dislike Vista

[Technician]

And if Microsoft, with 90+ percent of the market, said, "No, if you want to get your movies into our market, you'll get rid of this annoying, overhead causing crap that our consumers hate."

By default, Microsoft should have left HD playback out of the OS. MS should have a HD/Content protection option for those who want to pay for a HD drive and use it with HD content. Build in HD DVD content protection into on OS that is loaded on a PC that doesn't even come with HD drives is a terrible mistake.

The ball would still be in the media companies lap. They can either sell stuff that will play on the PC's, or sell stuff that requires a crippling upgrade to the hardware.

Some people will want the upgrade and others will want to avoid the upgrade. Either way HD content is protected even if it doesn't sell.

Why the pro-Apple stance when the mouse was worse?

[ToastyKen]

The Apple mouse was ranked 6th while Vista was 10, but the article has a pro-Apple stance. I just wanted to point that out. I mean, I'm a Mac fan, and I know Vista is the more current topic, but still, kinda unfair....

(Yes yes, I know, "You must be new here." :P)

Re:Think different?

[garcia]

Drooling over hardware like an idiot.. you already own a Mac don't you?

Yeah, and I really can't say I like my Mac. I do, however, love those huge displays that I don't see demoed in any other store like they are in the Apple store. If drooling over hardware like those displays makes me an idiot, I guess I'll deal with it but for you to assume that it was because I was just drooling over it w/o any practical use for it then you're sorely mistaken.

Faint damning is almost praise.

[Futurepower(R)]

"Vista... general pointlessness as an upgrade..."

Praising Microsoft products again, I see.

Microsoft has once again released a product before it was finished. That has wasted the time of many, many educated people, dragging down their quality of life and their productiveness.

That is NOT "pointlessness". That is abuse.

The Crave "article" is embarassing

[Infonaut]

The abundance of "lists as articles" makes me want to vomit, but this one takes the cake. They just randomly put down ten tech mistakes in an ad-baiting format (click here to see the next on the list - we won't tell you what it is, but if you click here, we'll get more ad revenue!). What's the time period? What are the criteria for selection?

The writers just pulled nonsense out of their asses, and somehow that passes as valuable information. In this so-called Information Age, one would think better writing would rise to the top. Sadly, that doesn't seem to be the case. We get crap, but at least we get it instantly!

Windows, OS X, and Linux user

[Master Switch]

I spend much of my time using Windows (2K pro, 2003, XP, and Vista) and OS X , and a little on Linux. I consider myself experienced with both OS X and Windows. I much prefer OS X but I can say there is also some things I like about Vista. I have not had any speed issues and only a few software compatibility issues. I appreciate the structural improvements made in such areas as the management console, event logger, command line utilities, and kernel structures. Vista isn't the upgrade it should have been but it is not horrible. Microsoft is on the right track with UAC, and with some fine tuning it will be worth the trouble. The display subsystem is moving in the same direction that NeXT aka OS X took 15 or so years ago (think display post script in NeXT, now display PDF in OS X). It's taken Microsoft far too long to catch up but I do think they are on the right track. Remember the resistance XP met with when it first arrived. Now it's well received. I think Vista will eventually achieve this status a few years down the road.

Re:Vista is #10?

[GIL_Dude]

As someone who Beta tested the OS and who has it on 3 work machines and a couple of home machines (except for one box that dual boots Ubuntu and XP) I can almost agree with you. However, if you try to capture audio as it is playing you will find it has more DRM than XP. Using freeware like Audigy on XP you could (depending on your sound card) capture what was being played. Some cards called it "what u hear" others "wave out mix" - but generally you could grab it.

With Vista, you can no longer do that. It does stop me from ripping that 2 second sound byte from DVD that I sometimes want for my own use. In fact, that's the only reason the XP box still exists; it would be just Ubuntu if not for that one thing. So, to be fair - there is more DRM in Vista than in WinXP. It hasn't hurt much yet for me - but it has been a small pain. I think what we need hear is more honest talk from folks who have tried it and seen what sucks and what doesn't and a little less vitriol from some folks anyway who haven't even tried it.

Re:Don't worry, i won't flame you :)

[gordgekko]

> 4. The point with Vista is not whether it ACTUALLY prevents you from watching DVD's. The point is that it can in the future, and that you won't be able to do ANYTHING about it. Vista is taking all the decisions for you, and where you'd like to be asked "Cancel, or Allow?" regarding updates-from and reports-to Microsoft, you won't be. If Redmond decides to install a rootkit on your vista, you won't even notice!

No offence, but this exact same statement (well, statements) can be made about Apple as well. What's preventing them from injecting new DRM into OS X in a future update? Because Jobs wears turtlenecks? The only operating system I trust in that respect is Linux and its variants so I guess I'm agreeing with you in that respect. I'll tell you what -- and I am a man of my word and owner of Gutsy Gibbon on DVD -- if Vista ever screws with me when it comes to backing up or playing my digital media, I join the FOSS army faster than you can say Monkey Boy.

Re:Vista is #10?

[cnettel]

What codecs do you use on each machine? An AVI is just a container and I somehow think you didn't rip into a Windows Media codec, hence the WMP version is (almost) irrelevant.

Not a myth

[DrYak]

Vista's DRM problems are no "Myth" at all.
Maybe some overblown exaggeration made by some blogger and the Zdnet blog you're citing is specifically attempting to debunk them.

That doesn't prevent Vista's DRM to suck anyway.

- About the HDCP/DRM
Needing a whole DRM stack just to connect your screen is what I find the most abusive.
It's MY display that I BOUGHT legally with MY OWN MONEY.
It's MY graphic card that I BOUGHT legally with MY OWN MONEY.
I have complete legal ownership of both these items.
THEN WHY THE HELL MUST THERE BE A DRM STACK that has to decide what goes on my screen and what doesn't ?
Why is it putting arbitrary restriction on what I can do with something I own legally ?
All this stupidity only because the **AA are afraid that someone *might* attempt to pirate digital content at no loss using the digital transmission.
(As if all this has prevented Muslix64 and Co to design a method to decode HDDVD & BD using keys dumped from software).

The some idiotic design is replicated on other channels, including the audio path. And give the ability to the audio player to refuse to play if it considers the driver stack insecure.

- About the drivers for Vista 64.
Sorry, but Windows Vista 64 driver models seriously challenge free drivers (like kxProjet alternative drivers) and completely prevent open source driver project ( like 3DFX Voodoo 3/4/5 - which are compatible with 64bit system : XP 64).
The former, as a free/beer project may not have the budget to buy signing keys.
The later, as a free/speech project need to grant its user the ability to do whatever they want with the code. Should a newer patch be available for either Mesa or Glide, I should be able to recompile mine and load them (the recent patches to enable Quake4 on MesaFX comes to mind as an exemple). Without a signing key, it's something impossible to do. This both contradict the fundamental liberties that organisation like FSF are fighting for, and also violates GPLv3 (don't know if currently there are GPLv3 drivers being developed).
Yes, one could find signing key from other CA. But that cost money that some project don't have, or would require every single end user to have access to the key in order to keep the basic software freedoms.

And the ActiveX fiasco (and the various CA-signed malware that has appeared in the past) has already shown that merely signing code won't actually guarantee it's quality.

So these two are clearly both useless (video content got copied anyway, signing has never kept out malware) and arbitrarily restrict users freedom (I should decide what goes on my hardware, without needing to pay additional fee just to use something I've already paid for).

Re:Vista is #10?

[Mex]

Hey, you know what's interesting? Isn't ZDNet and Cnet basically the same company?

Because that's a good business. One site criticizes Vista, the other defends it. One hand slaps you and the other provides the cure. Ad money goes to the same boss.

You Just Made The Baby Jesus Cry!!

[mpapet]

Microsoft is on the right track with UAC

Oh no it's not. UAC is not a security feature. I don't know what it is, security is not it.

"processes running in the sandbox are running as you, and so can read and write any files, Registry keys, and even other processes to which your account has access. That caveat creates major gaps in the walls of the sandbox and malicious code written with awareness of the restricted environment could take advantage of them to escape and become full administrator."

http://blogs.technet.com/markrussinovich/archive/2007/02/12/638372.aspx

"Are you sure?" is not security. Linux, BSD's and OSX are dramatically better online user systems. It's just so much easier when you deal with a well designed system to begin with.

The display subsystem ... is laden with DRM. Microsoft checks with the RIAA before it shows you anything. See other comments in this story.

Apologize to the baby jesus!

Re:Vista is #10?

[Technician]

I don't have that kind of cable so I haven't tried it but it seems like a fully analog method should work.

One of the complaints of Vista was the shutting down of other processes when protected media was playing up to and including completely disabling analog outputs. Reduced resolution includes the streaming web radio station playing in the background. Try playing a HD movie while listening to a webcast. Either the resolution of analog outputs is reduced or shut off. DRM often shuts down the unrelated unprotected stream. Enjoy. The analog hole works as long as the input is on another machine and the content creator permits some analog output.

I haven't tried that kind of cable either. I haven't wasted my time or money on protected content to test it. Regular DVDs are broken enough to be useful. The Kalidascope case has deemed that not all home media servers are illegal. Protected content is broken enough to simply be not be useful.

Most people haven't tried to play HD movies on their Vista Boxes, simply because they don't have a HD drive, or haven't spent the money on the higher cost movies. What you are used to with standard DVD playback is easy compared to using protected HD content. If you are not using encrypted protected output devices, HD will often play back in lower quality if at all on the analog monitor and speakers you have.

Expect the HD DVD you just bought to fail to play on your headphones on your laptop. It is in the spec and is what the complaints are all about. Even if you don't play HD content, the DRM is still a major source of processor cycles and short battery life. DRM is a big part of the long boot times and slower than XP performance.

MS missed the boat on not releasing a non-media edition. The non-media edition would have HD playback disabled, no DRM, and should have fast performance. The DRM/HD playback module should be an optional upgrade. Most of us don't use it and don't want it.

Re:Vista is #10?

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with you, but that's not my point. Read up on the Image Constraint Token and you'll realize that MS's hands are tied in this matter. By law, to play HD media that uses the ICT, they need to provide the protected video path, or if the hardware does not support it they need to downsample media with the ICT bit set. They have no choice in the matter. Nor does Apple or anybody else who doesn't want their butt dragged into court by the MPAA. ...

Again, I am not saying this is fair. I'm saying, blame the MPAA or the govt. for not stepping in to rectify this bullshit situation, instead of yelling bloody murder at MS when they have no choice in the matter. They have a choice. You know, Microsoft could grow some balls and not just not support it. Then inform users the reason they can't play a Blu-Ray or HD-DVD is because the MPAA wants to screw over their customers. Redesigning your OS just to make the MPAA customer screwing easier isn't a good decision. Microsoft controls 90%+ of the desktop market, they could force the MPAA into some sort of compromise if they had the sack to.

Re:Vista is #10?

[Joce640k]

The aim is never to make it 100% unhackable. The aim is always to make it so inconvenient to hack that only a very small % of people ever bother taking the effort.

It only needs *one* person to make an effort and the pirates have their copy.

Meanwhile, countless "legal" people are being inconvenienced and expensed because of the DRM. People should have the right to make backup copies of their paid-for media. Accidents happen, thefts happen, etc., etc...

Re:Vista is #10?

[Ed Avis]

Microsoft's record of 'legal compliance' in any other area is remarkably poor; they tend to drag their feet on anything which would help interoperability and the consumer; but when it comes to misfeatures which restrict the user and reduce the PC's capability, they eagerly implement and gold-plate them. It would be good to see some of the robust Microsoft screw-you attitude applied to the movie studios and their ridiculous demands as well as to antitrust authorities.

Naivety

[hyades1]

I was amazed at the number of comments on the site from UK people who like Vista just fine. I was also surprised at the level of naivety on display. One person said they had no problem with the intrusive security measures because they just turned all that stuff off! Another said people should quit whining and upgrade their computers. Apparently he was unaware that a mid-sized company with 25 desktop computers and maybe another dozen laptops would be stark, raving mad to throw them all out (and maybe some other hardware, too) in order to use an operating system that has known, acknowledged issues.

And I would NOT like to be giving a PowerPoint presentation in front of 150 people when Vista performed a spontaneous update, decided something was wrong and went into that barely-functional drone state.

Re:Whew!

[HeroreV]

Microsoft is way too big for me to have a single opinion about all of it. Same with Sony and other large companies/organizations. Some parts of them may be horribly evil, but that doesn't mean there isn't significant goodness in there as well.

Re:Vista is #10?

[rhade]

The reason you don't see that yet, is that hollywood has agreed not to set the ICT bit on any media until 2012 so we can all be nice and comfy at home with our blu-ray/hd-dvd combo drives, looting the shit out of bittorrent then suddenly nothing works.